• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Deleted member 18944

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,944
I think there needs to be a bigger voice from all unheard or barely heard voices of Blacks, PoC, etc in Food Culture, and in turn, via cook books and recipes in published platforms like NYT Cooking and Bon Appetit.

In a separate take, I think one of the most important factors about Food culture and Culinary Arts is how we eat a dish and then recreate it with our own flavor, whether that be cultural or simply ingredients. In my experience, the people who are experts in this field are more celebratory of that food adoption in whatever way its been changed than bothered by it.

The culinary world is full of its own problems, but I do not think one of them is people hijacking dishes for their own consumption and sharing.

If those two aspects (having dishes from other cultures, making them your own, etc, and providing a voice for unheard groups) cannot exist as separates, then I'm interested in hearing why! I don't know if I have the knowledge yet to think beyond "these can be separate"
 

Pet

More helpful than the IRS
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,070
SoCal
Woks of Life seems legit.

Ah yeah I've used their recipes before.

Personally I tend to cross reference a lot of different recipes when cooking Chinese food because I know what I want my dish to taste like already. That's not a luxury I have with cuisines I'm not as instinctively familiar with (Japanese/Korean).



Also for others, not sure if this is available online, but pretty much every Taiwanese person/family will have learned some recipes from Pei-Mei's Chinese Cook Book.

She's literally like the Julia Child of Taiwan.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,979
This is a joke, right?
Nope. The amount of shit Western African, and African cuisine recipes I've been subjected to and lectured about by white people is hilarious.

Cook the food. Bastardize it if you must. Don't call it authentic though when you only pretend to understand the history of it or act as if you have insight into the cuisine over its ethnic population though.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,979
The culinary world is full of its own problems, but I do not think one of them is people hijacking dishes for their own consumption and sharing.

If those two aspects (having dishes from other cultures, making them your own, etc, and providing a voice for unheard groups) cannot exist as separates, then I'm interested in hearing why! I don't know if I have the knowledge yet to think beyond "these can be separate"
Sure. Go ahead.

Just don't pass it off as authentic cuisine.
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,999
Houston
Appropriation of food and recipes is the best thing that has happened to us, culinarily speaking.

Not giving minority chefs a platform is an issue, having white people prepare an Asian dish is not.
This.

Claiming only people of certain ethnicity can cook their food is ridiculous. We wouldnt have even half the BBQ types we have if that were true. Tex mex wouldn't exist.
 
OP
OP
RastaMentality
Oct 25, 2017
13,129
Doesn't Bon Appetit still not have a black woman in their main cast?

Now Tabitha Brown's blowing up on TikTok and showing that there's a sizable market for black woman personalities!

This.

Claiming only people of certain ethnicity can cook their food is ridiculous. We wouldnt have even half the BBQ types we have if that were true. Tex mex wouldn't exist.
Funny how the thread isn't about this. Lol. Read past the colon in the title.
 

darkazcura

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,894
Curry actually isn't a thing.

That's the main thing I have to add to this thread.

And yes, it annoys me that people oversimplify Indian food with the term curry.
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,999
Houston
Doesn't Bon Appetit still not have a black woman in their main cast?

Now Tabitha Brown's blowing up on TikTok and showing that there's a sizable market for black woman personalities!


Funny how the thread isn't about this. Lol. Read past the colon in the title.
And yet multiple people in the thread have claimed as such.

And I did read the thread and quoted someone I agreed with. That person said websites not giving equal platforms to all is a problem.
 

RocknRola

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,232
Portugal
Exactly.

I, for one, consider myself an expert on Japanese food ;p


(Seriously though, I think that it can be harder to truly "understand" some cultural/historical meanings of dishes, ingredients used, etc. In my experience, Americans don't really like to talk about how suffering or negative things impact recipes. It doesn't change how delicious the food is or who it is prepared by though or how smiled they are at it.)



I can.

Tea came from China.

The British were introduced to tea from China** and have been fucking it up ever since ;p.
** From Portugal actually. Who got it from China itself a bit earlier.
 

kcp12304

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,978
I'm Indian and I side eye most Indian recipes from major publications, big YouTube cooking channels, and the vast array of food blogs and social media food content.

Some get close but no cigar.
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,999
Houston
Sure about that?

Yes because White people know nothing about other people culture.



Also yes as other culture know more about their food and how to cook it than white people.

White people really need to stay in their lane and stop stealing from other culture.



Same with Tea. It's not a British invention but it is commonly associated with Britain despite the fact that the Chinese and Indian were drinking tea long before the British came.
Yes. This.

And usually destroy the authenticity and uniqueness of it in the process while appropriating it.
 

RocknRola

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,232
Portugal
As for the topic at hand, yes more ethnic chefs/cuisine experts should be given their opportunity to share their knowledge of food in English.

Though I suppose that hasn't really balanced out yet (despite certain cuisines being super popular in the US/UK) mostly because the local populations are still very much white (overall). Thus its much easier in those places to have a white face attached to these products (and most products in general).
 

Griselbrand

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,243
I'm drunk and didn't properly read the thread but Alison Roman and her chickpea stew mentioned in the other thread is fitting here.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,979
I'm not sure what you're addressing in my post xd
Agreeing that there's nothing wrong with people cooking different ethnic cuisine, modifying it, sharing it. Hell, promoting it -- though I don't think this in and of itself lends a voice to underrepresented cultures or their people. But yes, these things can exist separately.

I don't consider it, and don't think it should be referred to as authentic cuisine when it's been modified. Furthermore, an understanding and knowledge of the cultural history of these dishes is required in preparing them faithfully and that is lacking in most cases to begin with since the culinary industry, at all levels, lacks representation.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,041
I disagree entirely about cultural appropriation of food as a concept, as the assimilation of food into a broader cultural soup is typically a mark of cultural association and an important benefit to society. Foods are one of those things that help bridge distance between different cultures. So many cultures around the world independently developed a tradition where sharing a meal with someone was the way that you made peace with them or offered friendship or partnership. Sharing food across cultures is one of the greatest aspects of humanity.

Nobody owns food or recipes. Many foods aren't even culturally native to the population that we associate it with. The potato was introduced to Ireland. Tomatoes are not native to Italy. Many of the spices used in cuisines around the world were introduced to those places by the spice trade. Globalism dating back 700 years has influenced cuisine all over the world.

Then you have things like beer or alcohol. Should a Brewer in America not be able to make a Czech Pilsner or a German Lager? Then should a Brewer in Japan not be able to make an American light lager which itself was a recipe by an American Brewer from his German ancestors...? Should a Texas distiller not be able to make Vodka because Võda is a Polish spirit and the Texans can't appreciate Polish culture? No it's just chemistry. Should a West Coast Brewer not be allowed to make a New England IPA? By copying the style but not preserving the cultural identity -- MassHoles and loving Tom Brady -- of the original Brewer are they stealing this unfairly? Budweiser is an American beer started by a German American 200 years ago and it's now owned by ... Like a Dutch multinational corporate that also sells Corona or something (the details might be wrong but you get the gist), which is itself a beer modelled after Budweiser but sold with some Latin American branding. The beers are popular all over the world. Bud is one of the most popular beer brands all over Europe, but when Budweiser released the "America Cans" a few years ago, the European Budweiser's kept the old branding. Is that appropriation by InBev, the foreign multinational selling shitty American light lager to club goers in Milan?

No. Recipes travel. Food travels. Food follows human migration and when you put up walls to food and saying that one person can't make a food or another person can't be an expert on a food, it's unnatural and is harmful to the human experience of sharing cultures and creating new cultures from that. When I grew up my polish grandmother made traditional polish food (which itself probably isn't even polish but probably some amalgamation of cultures given Poland's history) but most of the time she made Italian food... Not because she wanted to steal from the Italians but because it was cheap, easy, and could feed a whole family out of one pot. That cultural soup in America is also what has created so many wonderful new foods on this continent. Gumbo or Jambalaya are a wonderful mix of cultures, something that you uniquely get in America because you have 3 different cultures colliding In a single place and then necessity bringing them together to produce a wholely new culturally distinct food. Same with American BBQ. Same with Jazz music. Even American "Chinese" food which often is more American than it is Chinese. Our Chinese takeout place sells potato latkes, a meal youd often associated more with Polish Jews than Chinese. And why? Because the Jewish neighborhoods were next to the Chinese neighborhoods and at some point someone realized that potato latkes are good and they started selling them and they were a hit with their customers. Nobody owns potato pancakes, the Irish make boxty, Poles make latkes, Germans make kartoffelpuffel, the Chinese make potato pie or w/e it might be called in Chinese. Nobody owns it. It's a food everyone likes and everyone can make it, and you borrow a bit from one or the other to try to make a good food that sells to your customers.

People opening restaurants and calling them "Clean Chinese food" or something is not an example of appropriation, it's an example of bring a racist dick. It's saying that there's something unclean about Chinese food, something unclean about Chinese people. That's not appropriation, that's racism. It's not that it's an American making Chinese food it's that an American is passing a racist stereotype on Chinese people. Call that out, but not a chef studying cuisine and trying to make the best food they can.
 

Septimus Prime

EA
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
8,500
I think anyone can be great at coming any type of ethnic cuisine (and I'm fact I used to joke that Mexicans are the best at all of them because they comprise the kitchen staff of almost every place). The problem arises when being great at it gets to the chef's head, and then you see shit like Zimmern acting like he's some sort of authority while calling others horseshit.
 

Deleted member 18944

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,944
Agreeing that there's nothing wrong with people cooking different ethnic cuisine, modifying it, sharing it. Hell, promoting it -- though I don't think this in and of itself lends a voice to underrepresented cultures or their people. But yes, these things can exist separately.

I don't consider it, and don't think it should be referred to as authentic cuisine in most cases however. An understanding and knowledge of the cultural history of these dishes is required in preparing them faithfully. And that is lacking in most cases since the culinary industry, at all levels, lacks representation.

Ah yep! I totally agree with that.
 

Book One

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,822
I disagree entirely about cultural appropriation of food as a concept, as the assimilation of food into a broader cultural soup is typically a mark of cultural association and an important benefit to society. Foods are one of those things that help bridge distance between different cultures. So many cultures around the world independently developed a tradition where sharing a meal with someone was the way that you made peace with them or offered friendship or partnership. Sharing food across cultures is one of the greatest aspects of humanity.

so how would you characterize the situation outlined in the OP?
 

RC.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,056
Vancouver, BC
Curry actually isn't a thing.

That's the main thing I have to add to this thread.

And yes, it annoys me that people oversimplify Indian food with the term curry.

Yes!
There's only one dish Indian people call curry. Everything else has its own individual names just like any other cuisine.
It'd be like calling every Italian dish spaghettI, or describing every Mexican dish as a taco. It's ridiculous.
 

RocknRola

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,232
Portugal
I think anyone can be great at coming any type of ethnic cuisine (and I'm fact I used to joke that Mexicans are the best at all of them because they comprise the kitchen staff of almost every place). The problem arises when being great at it gets to the chef's head, and then you see shit like Zimmern acting like he's some sort of authority while calling others horseshit.
But, to use a gaming analogy, what's the point of "getting gud" if you can't gloat on your opponents corpse? :v

/s

Also the issue seems to be not so much cultural appropriation nor person A becoming good at cuisine B, but more so that in the English speaking markets people from the same ethnicity as the cuisine have a hard time appearing/getting acknowledged as experts on said cuisine. Granted, it's a side effect of the populations in those markets being very white and thus making it normal to always view things through that perspective but there is also quite a bit of (unintentional perhaps) racism to that I feel.
 

mikhailguy

Banned
Jun 20, 2019
1,967
if I'm not mistaken, tomatoes, potatoes, and cocoa all originated from the americas ("the new world")

food is one thing that should shared, iterated upon, and experimented with

good food is good food.
 

Chairman Yang

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,587
YouTube has been pretty good for getting recipes in the style of the original place of origin. That said, I often love bastardized cuisine as well, and that adoption and transformation has driven amazing innovation in food.
 

DarthSpider

The Fallen
Nov 15, 2017
2,957
Hiroshima, Japan
An understanding and knowledge of the cultural history of these dishes is required in preparing them faithfully and that is lacking in most cases to begin with since the culinary industry, at all levels, lacks representation.

Not totally on board with you yet. If you're talking about the cultural history of the actual ingredients used in the dish, then yeah. For example, why choose this tomato over that one whereas an outside observer would toss in any old tamato. But if you're talking about cultural history like the way Hiroshima citizens feel about Hiroshima style okonomiyaki because of its necessity post-bombing, then no, that is nonsense. My wife who was born and raised in Hiroshima, despite not being alive during the bombing, has a cultural connection to the dish that I will never have. But I can sure as fuck cook it better than she can, and she'd be the first one to tell you that. It's widely regarded that the best okonomiyaki in the city is made by a dude from Guatemala, who only started learning how to cook okonomiyaki because someone told him that Japanese people don't like Mexican food.
 

CrocoDuck

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,287
I was with the author until they mentions Rick Bayless. The man has spent decades highlighting real Mexican chefs and their expertise. I can acknowledge he is an outlier though.

If you ever watch some of his clips on YouTube, you'll see a lot of Mexicans and Mexican Americans that really appreciate what he does.
 
OP
OP
RastaMentality
Oct 25, 2017
13,129
I disagree entirely about cultural appropriation of food as a concept, as the assimilation of food into a broader cultural soup is typically a mark of cultural association and an important benefit to society. Foods are one of those things that help bridge distance between different cultures. So many cultures around the world independently developed a tradition where sharing a meal with someone was the way that you made peace with them or offered friendship or partnership. Sharing food across cultures is one of the greatest aspects of humanity.

Nobody owns food or recipes. Many foods aren't even culturally native to the population that we associate it with. The potato was introduced to Ireland. Tomatoes are not native to Italy. Many of the spices used in cuisines around the world were introduced to those places by the spice trade. Globalism dating back 700 years has influenced cuisine all over the world.

Then you have things like beer or alcohol. Should a Brewer in America not be able to make a Czech Pilsner or a German Lager? Then should a Brewer in Japan not be able to make an American light lager which itself was a recipe by an American Brewer from his German ancestors...? Should a Texas distiller not be able to make Vodka because Võda is a Polish spirit and the Texans can't appreciate Polish culture? No it's just chemistry. Should a West Coast Brewer not be allowed to make a New England IPA? By copying the style but not preserving the cultural identity -- MassHoles and loving Tom Brady -- of the original Brewer are they stealing this unfairly? Budweiser is an American beer started by a German American 200 years ago and it's now owned by ... Like a Dutch multinational corporate that also sells Corona or something (the details might be wrong but you get the gist), which is itself a beer modelled after Budweiser but sold with some Latin American branding. The beers are popular all over the world. Bud is one of the most popular beer brands all over Europe, but when Budweiser released the "America Cans" a few years ago, the European Budweiser's kept the old branding. Is that appropriation by InBev, the foreign multinational selling shitty American light lager to club goers in Milan?

No. Recipes travel. Food travels. Food follows human migration and when you put up walls to food and saying that one person can't make a food or another person can't be an expert on a food, it's unnatural and is harmful to the human experience of sharing cultures and creating new cultures from that. When I grew up my polish grandmother made traditional polish food (which itself probably isn't even polish but probably some amalgamation of cultures given Poland's history) but most of the time she made Italian food... Not because she wanted to steal from the Italians but because it was cheap, easy, and could feed a whole family out of one pot. That cultural soup in America is also what has created so many wonderful new foods on this continent. Gumbo or Jambalaya are a wonderful mix of cultures, something that you uniquely get in America because you have 3 different cultures colliding In a single place and then necessity bringing them together to produce a wholely new culturally distinct food. Same with American BBQ. Same with Jazz music. Even American "Chinese" food which often is more American than it is Chinese. Our Chinese takeout place sells potato latkes, a meal youd often associated more with Polish Jews than Chinese. And why? Because the Jewish neighborhoods were next to the Chinese neighborhoods and at some point someone realized that potato latkes are good and they started selling them and they were a hit with their customers. Nobody owns potato pancakes, the Irish make boxty, Poles make latkes, Germans make kartoffelpuffel, the Chinese make potato pie or w/e it might be called in Chinese. Nobody owns it. It's a food everyone likes and everyone can make it, and you borrow a bit from one or the other to try to make a good food that sells to your customers.

People opening restaurants and calling them "Clean Chinese food" or something is not an example of appropriation, it's an example of bring a racist dick. It's saying that there's something unclean about Chinese food, something unclean about Chinese people. That's not appropriation, that's racism. It's not that it's an American making Chinese food it's that an American is passing a racist stereotype on Chinese people. Call that out, but not a chef studying cuisine and trying to make the best food they can.
You realize the OP isn't about this
 

Epiphyte

Member
Nov 4, 2017
130
so how would you characterize the situation outlined in the OP?
By addressing it as a systemic problem

White people cooking other cultures dishes = good
White chefs introducing people to unfamiliar cuisine = good
The above happening in the complete absence and erasure of cooks that hail from said cultures = bad

Basically, #culinary so white
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,041
so how would you characterize the situation outlined in the OP?

I don't have a problem that recipes published in the New York Times tagged as being "Chinese" or "Italian" or what have you are articles written by non-Chinese or non-Italian people. We casually associate food with a group of people because it's easy to classify, but it's not only those people who are allowed to write about food or recipes, or to cook those foods.

I would have a problem with an article that says, like, "How to make Chinese food without getting Chinese Food Syndrome" (the fake "syndrome" that many westerners wrongly attribute to overblown food additives like MSG). I've taken issue with those articles in the past. I used to be a dining critic and always tried to avoid cultural bias bull shit like that. The food cliches like Mexican food makes you poop or Chinese food gives you a headache.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,041
You realize the OP isn't about this

The OP, as it's presented here, seems to take issue with articles being published in the NYT that are dishes attributed to some culture that the author of the article does not belong to. I disagree with that being an issue and that's just one of the points I made in my long rambling post about how food is wonderful.

I don't think that you have to be a certain race, ethnicity, nationality, or some other demographic to appreciate food, cook food, eat food, or write stories about food.
 
OP
OP
RastaMentality
Oct 25, 2017
13,129
I don't have a problem that recipes published in the New York Times tagged as being "Chinese" or "Italian" or what have you are articles written by non-Chinese or non-Italian people. We casually associate food with a group of people because it's easy to classify, but it's not only those people who are allowed to write about food or recipes, or to cook those foods.
The OP outlines a situation where minorities are being gatekept out of their own cuisine's recipes in favor of whites only on recipe sites.

I didn't ask what people think about white people making Indian food because a thread where everyone repeatedly says "I have no problem with that" isn't an interesting one.
 

Elandyll

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,826
I honestly don't see a problem, as long as the cuisine's origins are still clearly celebrated/ honored, and that we do not deny the authenticity of the native cooking.
If I'd even try to imagine policing the authenticity of people who do French cuisine, white or non white alike... Oh my.
 

Deleted member 15227

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,819
It's just another vector of cultural appropriation.

After centuries of dumping shit on and turning up their noses to Asians/PoC, white people suddenly 'discover' Asian food and become experts? Fuck right off. How about providing platforms to Asians and other PoC to share their culture directly instead without pandering to white audiences or requiring approval from white management.

Seeing idiots like Jamie Oliver or Ramsay present the 'best fried rice ever' or equivalent or going on to open a 'Vietnamese' / Asian restaurant ... yeah sod off.
 

Epiphyte

Member
Nov 4, 2017
130
The OP outlines a situation where minorities are being gatekept out of their own cuisine's recipes in favor of whites only on recipe sites.

I didn't ask what people think about white people making Indian food because a thread where everyone repeatedly says "I have no problem with that" isn't an interesting one.
But this also highlights some cultural blinders we bring to the discussion

Why the fuck would someone from Goa be a more accurate representative of Punjab cuisine than some Chinese person who had studied Punjabi cuisine? Indian food is a hell of a broad category and being born on the subcontinent doesn't give you +5 in cross regional cuisine

It'd be like a someone hiring a random Austin pitmaster to be the best person to cook Carolina barbeque
 

Book One

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,822
I don't have a problem that recipes published in the New York Times tagged as being "Chinese" or "Italian" or what have you are articles written by non-Chinese or non-Italian people. We casually associate food with a group of people because it's easy to classify, but it's not only those people who are allowed to write about food or recipes, or to cook those foods.

I would have a problem with an article that says, like, "How to make Chinese food without getting Chinese Food Syndrome" (the fake "syndrome" that many westerners wrongly attribute to overblown food additives like MSG). I've taken issue with those articles in the past. I used to be a dining critic and always tried to avoid cultural bias bull shit like that. The food cliches like Mexican food makes you poop or Chinese food gives you a headache.

i mean the situations in the op where websites and publishers have so little representation from people actually of that culture, or how those people find it so hard to get their work published while white authors don't have similar issues.

RastaMentality is putting it much more concisely than I can, I'll just add to me I don't think it unreasonable to see that racism and appropriation can go hand in hand, or at least play a role in different aspects of this issue. I don't see the logic in discounting the concept of appropriation yet still recognizing how race can play a role in this topic.

I don't disagree with you about people of one culture making food from another. I really don't think most people have a problem with that. And I think simply jotting that down as appropriation isnt reasonable either. But i think the topic here goes beyond that.
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,212
Greater Vancouver
Meals transform when travelling between cultures. But it's safe to say that "authenticity" is often a meaningless buzzword that doesn't actually reveal how much was altered in order to increase marketability for white people, diluting the cultural influence.

There's a long gross history of creative voices being shoved aside for the tastes of white audiences.
 

nded

Member
Nov 14, 2017
10,576
The irony as Chicken Tikka Masala is a British creation.
I mean, it was probably created by South Asian immigrants living in the UK and adapting their recipes to available ingredients and British palates. Just calling it British seems misleading, and it's not like there aren't plenty of older dishes from the Indian subcontinent that would be mistaken for chicken tikka masala given how vaguely defined it is.
 

wandering

flâneur
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
2,136
I disagree entirely about cultural appropriation of food as a concept, as the assimilation of food into a broader cultural soup is typically a mark of cultural association and an important benefit to society. Foods are one of those things that help bridge distance between different cultures. So many cultures around the world independently developed a tradition where sharing a meal with someone was the way that you made peace with them or offered friendship or partnership. Sharing food across cultures is one of the greatest aspects of humanity.

Nobody owns food or recipes. Many foods aren't even culturally native to the population that we associate it with. The potato was introduced to Ireland. Tomatoes are not native to Italy. Many of the spices used in cuisines around the world were introduced to those places by the spice trade. Globalism dating back 700 years has influenced cuisine all over the world.

Then you have things like beer or alcohol. Should a Brewer in America not be able to make a Czech Pilsner or a German Lager? Then should a Brewer in Japan not be able to make an American light lager which itself was a recipe by an American Brewer from his German ancestors...? Should a Texas distiller not be able to make Vodka because Võda is a Polish spirit and the Texans can't appreciate Polish culture? No it's just chemistry. Should a West Coast Brewer not be allowed to make a New England IPA? By copying the style but not preserving the cultural identity -- MassHoles and loving Tom Brady -- of the original Brewer are they stealing this unfairly? Budweiser is an American beer started by a German American 200 years ago and it's now owned by ... Like a Dutch multinational corporate that also sells Corona or something (the details might be wrong but you get the gist), which is itself a beer modelled after Budweiser but sold with some Latin American branding. The beers are popular all over the world. Bud is one of the most popular beer brands all over Europe, but when Budweiser released the "America Cans" a few years ago, the European Budweiser's kept the old branding. Is that appropriation by InBev, the foreign multinational selling shitty American light lager to club goers in Milan?

No. Recipes travel. Food travels. Food follows human migration and when you put up walls to food and saying that one person can't make a food or another person can't be an expert on a food, it's unnatural and is harmful to the human experience of sharing cultures and creating new cultures from that. When I grew up my polish grandmother made traditional polish food (which itself probably isn't even polish but probably some amalgamation of cultures given Poland's history) but most of the time she made Italian food... Not because she wanted to steal from the Italians but because it was cheap, easy, and could feed a whole family out of one pot. That cultural soup in America is also what has created so many wonderful new foods on this continent. Gumbo or Jambalaya are a wonderful mix of cultures, something that you uniquely get in America because you have 3 different cultures colliding In a single place and then necessity bringing them together to produce a wholely new culturally distinct food. Same with American BBQ. Same with Jazz music. Even American "Chinese" food which often is more American than it is Chinese. Our Chinese takeout place sells potato latkes, a meal youd often associated more with Polish Jews than Chinese. And why? Because the Jewish neighborhoods were next to the Chinese neighborhoods and at some point someone realized that potato latkes are good and they started selling them and they were a hit with their customers. Nobody owns potato pancakes, the Irish make boxty, Poles make latkes, Germans make kartoffelpuffel, the Chinese make potato pie or w/e it might be called in Chinese. Nobody owns it. It's a food everyone likes and everyone can make it, and you borrow a bit from one or the other to try to make a good food that sells to your customers.

People opening restaurants and calling them "Clean Chinese food" or something is not an example of appropriation, it's an example of bring a racist dick. It's saying that there's something unclean about Chinese food, something unclean about Chinese people. That's not appropriation, that's racism. It's not that it's an American making Chinese food it's that an American is passing a racist stereotype on Chinese people. Call that out, but not a chef studying cuisine and trying to make the best food they can.

Sigh... this is exactly the kind of dismissiveness and talking past each other I mentioned. I don't think we disagree on your major point; I said as much (pretty explicitly, I thought so) in my comment, that exchange of cuisine isn't some moral evil, and it's not about ownership.

Where we do disagree seems to be the details. Do you take issue with the concept of cultural appropriation, or with the phrase? You agree that the "clean Chinese food" example is egregious. What about the other things I talked about? Systemic inequality when it comes to the exchange of cultural artifacts? Systematic stigmatization of cultural artifacts until the point that a white audience finds them useful? The disparity in prestige afforded to white versus non-white individuals? Disparities at large in the culinary industry? What do you want to call that? Simply "racism?" What's the utility in impoverishing our language as such?

Or do you believe that the above issues aren't problems? If that's the case then oh, well. Chalk it up to a fundamental difference in worldview.

I want to believe that you're coming in good faith. But I have to be honest, coming in with a blithe "sharing culture is good" in this context really misses the point.
 
Last edited:

RocknRola

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,232
Portugal
Meals transform when travelling between cultures. But it's safe to say that "authenticity" is often a meaningless buzzword that doesn't actually reveal how much was altered in order to increase marketability for white people, diluting the cultural influence.

There's a long gross history of creative voices being shoved aside for the tastes of white audiences.
To the issue of authenticity I will say that even in a single country, within is various regions, there'll be variants of any given dish. All of them are equally authentic in the sense they come from their country of origin but internally people will argue which is more traditional than the other.

So, authenticity can become a bit complex depending on the dish, country and the person viewing/reading the recipe.
 

game-biz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,715
Honestly, I don't know if my reading comprehension is accurate here because I know very little about this particular subject, but it seems to me that no one is saying, "You can't cook cuisines from other cultures." It's basically saying don't be a dick: If you make a Chinese dish and say it's authentic "Chinese cuisine," but you're also not Chinese, it comes off as arrogant to me.

As a personal example I once made this Japanese summer dish known as Zaru Soba (Cold Soba Noodles) for a couple friends. I told them this is a dish that is apparently popular in Japan during the summer, because it gets pretty hot and eating cold noodles is surprisingly refreshing, not to mention tasty. At no point did I even imply that I wasn't some white guy who didn't find this on an internet blog. I tried to make it as "authentic" to the best of my ability, but I'm not cocky enough to tell anyone that this was authentic Japanese food provided by some white dude from Bakersfield.