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adinsx

Member
Oct 30, 2017
203
Alright, alright, it's fair but unless the studio understands the boycott is because of crunching it will do no good.
Probably they will think the game was not as good as they wanted, or marketing was not good and they will make it even worst next time, more crunching, better game.

I will buy the game because I'm a fan. Crunch is usually a management problem and sometimes it needs to be fixed internally.
 

MillionIII

Banned
Sep 11, 2018
6,816
ND is done after the 25 good human beans in this thread won't buy it, news flash this is not what will stop crunches.
 

CaptainKashup

Banned
May 10, 2018
8,313
As consumers, I sincerely think we can't do anything about crunch. We can spread the word around but that's it.
The changes needs to come within the industry, with dev speaking out and acting upon it. The more they talk about it, the better.
But boycott is definitely not the answer, unless you want the people who crunched to also get laid off for not doing a "good enough" job.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,925
Devs have bonuses when the game sells and score well, but nothing compared to big guys of course
Being compensated is secondary to the larger issue, abuse is still abuse. This whole premise boycotts only or primarily hurt the grunt and file works is flawed. If the culture can't change the company doesn't deserve to exist.
 

ergoakari

Member
Oct 28, 2017
428
Canada
Then stop buying almost 80% of AAA Games.

I just want to add that this is absolutely not just about AAA. In past points in my career I've crunched countless hours, entire months and years of my life that seem like lost memories of 4am drives home, for games that had less than 40% on metacritic only to have people make joke videos about the lack of effort put into it. Games in general, at all levels of production are made on impossible timelines with teams that are far too small.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,856
Mount Airy, MD
It's an oversimplification but the reality is the little guys are being hurt regardless, while the big guys will indeed suffer if their game bombs.

The reality is that their game will not bomb. Your choices in purchasing are about what you can/will do, but understand: most people aren't going to think twice about this; like with all other products, and it will succeed or fail on its merits and advertising and whatever other factors.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,925
The reality is that their game will not bomb. Your choices in purchasing are about what you can/will do, but understand: most people aren't going to think twice about this; like with all other products, and it will succeed or fail on its merits and advertising and whatever other factors.
I doubt it bombs but a well organized boycott and campaign can still have an impact and apply public pressure highlighting the abuse. Beyond that not wanting to personally support abuse is also a very valid choice.
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,545
I doubt it bombs but a well organized boycott and campaign can still have an impact and apply public pressure highlighting the abuse. Beyond that not wanting to personally support abuse is also a very valid choice.

It would be one thing if the developers were leading the charge on this, but they arent. We dont even know how many of them would support the boycot.
 
Feb 23, 2019
1,426
I'm getting it. Working hard is nothing to be ashamed of and the devs that get the opportunity to work at a place like ND know what they're getting into.

That doesn't necessarily mean it's the optimal way to run a studio, but Videogame development is a chaotic environment in general with lots of changes happening constantly.
 

Thordawgg

Member
Nov 5, 2017
716
Wasn't getting it before but I was interested. The revelations of the working conditions I've become aware of has lessened the feeling of missing out though
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,856
Mount Airy, MD
I doubt it bombs but a well organized boycott and campaign can still have an impact and apply public pressure highlighting the abuse. Beyond that not wanting to personally support abuse is also a very valid choice.

There is no version of reality in which there will be a "well-organized boycott and campaign" against TLoU II or other games. I think making personal choices is absolutely valid. Just don't lie to yourself that it makes a dent in the overall profit this, and every other AAA game with crunch, will manage with or without the purchases of a very small minority of potential customers.
 

Abaddonn

Member
Dec 4, 2018
266
This is general problem in the gaming industry. I'm not gonna punish only ND for something that most studios does.
 
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Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,298
so I guess Cory posted this in response to all this going on. Kind of disappointed he didn't really take a stance, but especially disappointed he liked this tweet reply, wtf?
 

Deleted member 15447

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,728
User Banned (1 day): Antagonizing other members; prior related infractions
I don't believe you OP.

I get the sentiment and agree it's an issue worth discussing but I dare you to share your PSN username here. I guarantee you'll cave and need to play the game.
 

LatteToGo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
464
Well I've been boycotting on ubisoft for milking ass creed for years and it didn't change them, they keep making that thing yearly. Still never touch that series excluding AC2.

Still gonna get TLOU2 tho
 

QisTopTier

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,717
Well I've been boycotting on ubisoft for milking ass creed for years and it didn't change them, they keep making that thing yearly. Still never touch that series excluding AC2.

Still gonna get TLOU2 tho
What?

Syndicate to Origins was Two years, then Odessey was a year after that and now we are gonna be waiting for two years or so for the next one.

I dropped the series after 2 like you did but came back with origins last year when it was given away in a humble bundle. They put a lot of clear hard work into it and I regretted not checking it out sooner. If anything check out a youtube video of the education tours they made in the two latest games :D
 
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Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
I doubt it bombs but a well organized boycott and campaign can still have an impact and apply public pressure highlighting the abuse. Beyond that not wanting to personally support abuse is also a very valid choice.
this will not be a well organized boycott but yes you and others not buying it for that reason is valid. Just as it's valid for others to keep buying them, there are other ways to fight against crunch.
 

QisTopTier

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,717
I doubt it bombs but a well organized boycott and campaign can still have an impact and apply public pressure highlighting the abuse. Beyond that not wanting to personally support abuse is also a very valid choice.
Yup and people saying you'll just cave in fail to realize not everyone needs to play everything. I enjoyed the first game but certainly not enough to hand wave stuff like this I'll be fine
 

Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
19,089
Nah, I'm not going to devalue the hard work of a lot of talented people by refusing to support a series and studio that I love.

Naughty Dog makes great art. I plan to give them the support and appreciation they deserve by enjoying their latest masterpiece.

Who wants to bust their ass making an experience that's meant to move and entertain people, only to find out that a boycott is going to limit the audience?
 
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RingRang

Alt account banned
Banned
Oct 2, 2019
2,442
I believe most artistic endeavors are complicated and hard to complete. Games are no different, and thinking complex video games can be made without any crunch or difficulties is tantamount to thinking that sports can be played without anyone getting injured.

There are windows where a publisher/developer knows they can maximize sales, and so dates are set. Sometimes an extra push is needed to get that project out the door on time.
 
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gozu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,329
America
Some people are workaholics. If they work 60 hours a week, as many do, others must follow suit or fall behind.

Whether or not their relationships with their wives or children suffer irreparable damage doesn't change the first fact. By the time those people realize they fucked up, the damage will have been done for decades. And the next crop of workaholics will replace them.

The only way out is union regulations.
 

Johannes

Member
Oct 28, 2017
560
I doubt it bombs but a well organized boycott and campaign can still have an impact and apply public pressure highlighting the abuse. Beyond that not wanting to personally support abuse is also a very valid choice.
The likelihood of this happening is next to zero, since more often than not consumer boycotts doesn't reach large enough mass/support to make a difference to companies bottom line. Just like RDR2 or upcoming CP2077, The Last of Us P2 will sell gangbusters. This is not say people shouldn't be vocal about the issue, but it's up to the people in charge whether or not they personally feel it's worth the trouble to re-evaluate their practices. I would imagine the point is coming soon if ND has larger loss rate of talent in comparison to other AAA studies.
 

Arion

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,807
In a way knowing a game was made with crunch makes me appreciate everything about the game even more. At the same time I hope crunch can be prevented going forward.
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,545
I believe most artistic endeavors are complicated and hard to complete. Games are no different, and thinking complex video games can be made without any crunch or difficulties is tantamount to thinking that sports can be played without anyone getting injured.

There are highly successful AAA studios that don't crunch. Injuries are an accident, crunch is not. A better comparison would be like a strength&conditioning coach over training athletes to the point to where they do get injured because "That's just the way it is, it's the way i've always done it". (you actually see this ALOT).
 

bane833

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
4,530
I don't think the people of Naughty Dog need my support in this case. We're not talking about poor people who are forced to work at Wal Mart or McDonald's to feed their family here. We're talking about highly skilled, sought after professionals that can pretty much work wherever they fucking want and are free to unionize or simply stand up to their employer.
 

TimFL

Member
Oct 28, 2017
239
Germany
I'd like to hear (never happens though) the thoughts of the many developers at ND hit by the crunch. You probably have 2 camps there: the ones who're drained and don't want crunches and the ones (who're maybe also drained) but would do it again and again because they love what they're doing and want their game to be the best there is.

I'm a software developer myself and I also have crunches (where I voluntarily also work from home at times, in my free time, without compensation) but I always power through cause I love the work I do and I want it to succeed, sacrifices have to be made (and yes, I could do without crunches but they're a necessary evil to get the most out of a poorly planned through product with the resources you have). Software development is my life and I'd wager the vast majority at game development companies also live for their work (disclaimer: I don't do game dev).

Boycotting the game will not prevent crunches, it'll just be an insult to the many people who do crunch cause they want this to be the best there is.
 

Ruddles

Member
Oct 17, 2018
351
so I guess Cory posted this in response to all this going on. Kind of disappointed he didn't really take a stance, but especially disappointed he liked this tweet reply, wtf?


This really, really bothers me. These posts are trying to normalise that making a good / great video game requires extraordinary sacrifices. I mean, get some perspective, extraordinary sacrifices are what we need to fight COVID-19, not to make some light entertainment. I also don't like the 'voluntary' word, we all know peer pressure and culture make this non-voluntary. I just do not accept that extraordinary sacrifices should be required in the entertainment industry.

Anyways, boycott is too strong a word for me, but I've cancelled my pre-order. I have enough games to play, it's no big deal, and I think I'd always have a slightly sour taste in my mouth playing a game that hospitalised someone. At the same time, I'm tapping this out on an iPhone, I recognise the hypocrisy in being a a participant in Western capitalist culture and trying to do good.
 

Porter

Member
Oct 1, 2018
16
Day one
1529422413-risitaszoom.png
 

Coloursheep

Member
Oct 31, 2017
185
User Banned (3 days): Whataboutism, ignoring the staff post
What I learned from years among gamers: even if a game they want is developed by blending puppies, they'll still buy it.

Yes, because video games have the worst labour practices, no where else uses forced labour, child labour or sweat shops, and if they did surely no one would buy products made under those conditions
 

cooldawn

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,448
I understand why but, at the end of the day, they need to be supported. Developers have already been paid though, right?

Targets need to be met. Bonuses could be paid to them.

They worked so fucking hard to, most probably, get a candidate for Game of the Generation I feel I need to tell them 'Thank you'.

So no, I will not be boycotting. I will be supporting.
 

thirtypercent

Member
Oct 18, 2018
680
One major consequence of this culture has been attrition. Of the 20 non-lead designers in the credits of 2016's Uncharted 4, a whopping 14—70 percent—are no longer at the studio, which has had wide-ranging effects on the development of The Last of Us II and led to questions about the continued viability of the Naughty Dog approach.

I've been getting the impression that the development of this game has become a mess for a while now and going by the article ND has become an almost unmanagable, bloated, inefficient shitshow. Crunch might be necessary in some instances for a limited time but here it seems more like a result of bad management, the higher-ups having lost perspective and ultimately control, they don't give a fuck about anything but their egos and so the whole beast slowly eats itself up. Imo it shows in their games too, UC4 was already on the cusp of being a too big tech-wankery of 'look what we can do, don't care if we should'. Less can be more for everyone involved including the players.

Also good on those devs who flip fucked up companies like this the finger and jump ship, they are the ones who deserve our support and respect. The exact opposite goes for those who look down on others and actively excert peer-pressure, trying to shame everyone else into working ungodly hours too. Disgusting.

Yet there are also those developers, some of whom still work at Naughty Dog today, who say that there's a part of them that actually wishes this game would fail. A critical flop might help show Naughty Dog that this isn't the best way to make games, that this level of sacrifice isn't necessary, that maybe the project isn't worth losing all of these people. That perhaps, no matter how many Game of the Year nominations they win or how high their Metacritic scores climb, all the individual hairs on Joel's eyebrows or the grains of sand in a burlap sack just aren't worth the cost.

Agreed, Era and other places will tout the end result as a huge accomplishment and wave it around trying to win their pitiful console wars but in the end it's just a fucking game everyone could do without or do with it being a tiny bit worse and smaller if it resulted in more reasonable and humane development conditions.
 
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RingRang

Alt account banned
Banned
Oct 2, 2019
2,442
There are highly successful AAA studios that don't crunch. Injuries are an accident, crunch is not. A better comparison would be like a strength&conditioning coach over training athletes to the point to where they do get injured because "That's just the way it is, it's the way i've always done it". (you actually see this ALOT).
How many stories have we heard of games that were nearing the finish line and then they realized a good chunk of this game sucks? It's the same story with movies. "Had to reshoot many scenes after realizing they weren't happy how things were going".

TLOU2 was given a February 2020 release date and then weeks later they realized they really weren't happy with how parts of the game turned out. This is a common aspect of highly ambitious artistic endeavors. How do you decide when something is done? How to you decide when something is good enough? These are the difficult questions that face those in charge of these projects, and it's clear Naughty Dog's bar is very high.

I don't really believe no crunch is a reality for most of AAA development. Sure, someone here and there will claim otherwise, but I suspect those are either projects that just got lucky, or people that are just painting a rosy picture.
 

Iwao

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,794
It would be one thing if the developers were leading the charge on this, but they arent. We dont even know how many of them would support the boycot.
It's interesting we've been hearing a lot about what developers think of crunch but we don't have responses from them about what a boycott of their game would mean for them and their jobs, and that is because they know boycotts do nothing.

Agreed, Era and other places will tout the end result as a huge accomplishment and wave it around trying to win their pitiful console wars but in the end it's just a fucking game everyone could do without or do with it being a tiny bit worse and smaller if it resulted in more reasonable and humane development conditions.
This is so true, but it's a rock and a hard place for a studio that consists of a majority that wants to make the sequel to one of the most awarded and admired games in the history of games at least as good if not better than the first. They didn't have to make this sequel and a lot of people including myself would have been fine without one, but the onus has been on them to prove it was worth making since they announced it. The pressures to make that happen must be insane.
 
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ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,545
I don't really believe no crunch is a reality for most of AAA development. Sure, someone here and there will claim otherwise, but I suspect those are either projects that just got lucky, or people that are just painting a rosy picture.

I doubt luck has much to do with it, the studio decides before the game goes into production that they don't want to work crazy hours to ship the game and they take the necessary steps to make sure that happens, this will reduce the amount of crunch necessary or eliminate it entirely. It's hard to claim game development requires crunch when they don't make an effort to eliminate crunch isnt it?

Obviously if you go into production with the intention of crunching, then you're going to be crunching, or in NDs case, crunching months longer than originally thought and hemorrhaging talent because of it, which leads to the next game being delayed while young new staff learns the ropes, which increases the chances of crunching, which causes more talent to leave....

This isn't sustainable or morally acceptable.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
Being compensated is secondary to the larger issue, abuse is still abuse. This whole premise boycotts only or primarily hurt the grunt and file works is flawed. If the culture can't change the company doesn't deserve to exist.

You can't really enact widespread cultural change with a "free market" pressure aka boycotting. You need legislation. If you really care, call your representatives, support labor movements. https://www.gameworkersunite.org/ The free market is absolutely terrible at regulating itself. Voting with your wallet via abstinence is a libertarian myth.
 
Nov 4, 2017
7,372
I'm a code monkey by trade myself. At the end of each work day, I basically flip my desk and shout "eat shit, c$@#s, I'm going home". Not really, but I make a pretty firm point about keeping clear boundaries when it comes to work/life balance. Key points are a)I don't live in the US and b)we have a very good union.

Good on you for making a stand, OP. I'm very keen to play this game, but will wait to get it second hand or heavily discounted. It's not much, but it's something I guess.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,925
The likelihood of this happening is next to zero, since more often than not consumer boycotts doesn't reach large enough mass/support to make a difference to companies bottom line. Just like RDR2 or upcoming CP2077, The Last of Us P2 will sell gangbusters. This is not say people shouldn't be vocal about the issue, but it's up to the people in charge whether or not they personally feel it's worth the trouble to re-evaluate their practices. I would imagine the point is coming soon if ND has larger loss rate of talent in comparison to other AAA studies.
You can't really enact widespread cultural change with a "free market" pressure aka boycotting. You need legislation. If you really care, call your representatives, support labor movements. https://www.gameworkersunite.org/ The free market is absolutely terrible at regulating itself. Voting with your wallet via abstinence is a libertarian myth.
So the point of boycott isn't just the financial bottom line or "voting with your wallet", it's also public pressure through other mechanisms like social media and the press. And also the larger moral issue of not personally supporting abuse, this is about sending a message that's not only monetary.

Legislation is another important avenue and making your voice heard there is also absolutely valid. This isn't a zero sum game, multiple approaches shouldn't be discouraged.
 

ScatheZombie

Member
Oct 26, 2017
398
So the point of boycott isn't just the financial bottom line or "voting with your wallet", it's also public pressure through other mechanisms like social media and the press. And also the larger moral issue of not personally supporting abuse, this is about sending a message that's not only monetary.

Legislation is another important avenue and making your voice heard there is also absolutely valid. This isn't a zero sum game, multiple approaches shouldn't be discouraged.

The toxic culture in the games industry is exceptionally widespread, self-supporting (many developers actually encourage it themselves), and has been the status quo for basically 30 years now.

Public pressure will not work. Boycotting will not work. Social media grandstanding will not work. It hasn't worked. It continues to not work now. It will not work in the future. This isn't a new phenomenon. This isn't something that just popped up. This isn't something that no one knew about until now. Developers have literally been fighting crunch for longer than most of ERA has been alive.

Legislation is not 'another important avenue'. It is realistically the only avenue.

It's not about being a zero sum game or 'multiple approaches'. Developers are literally telling you what you are doing does not accomplish the goal you are striving for. The people who you claim to be advocating for do not want you to do this.

All that boycotting or social media pressure or 'making your voice heard' accomplishes is make YOU feel better about the situation. It only accomplishes temporarily absolving YOU of the moral/ethical dilemma of being intimately involved in an exploitative industry. Because YOU feel like you've done something, you've contributed, you've helped in some way. And it's largely hypocritical and vain.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,925
The toxic culture in the games industry is exceptionally widespread, self-supporting (many developers actually encourage it themselves), and has been the status quo for basically 30 years now.

Public pressure will not work. Boycotting will not work. Social media grandstanding will not work. It hasn't worked. It continues to not work now. It will not work in the future. This isn't a new phenomenon. This isn't something that just popped up. This isn't something that no one knew about until now. Developers have literally been fighting crunch for longer than most of ERA has been alive.

Legislation is not 'another important avenue'. It is realistically the only avenue.

It's not about being a zero sum game or 'multiple approaches'. Developers are literally telling you what you are doing does not accomplish the goal you are striving for. The people who you claim to be advocating for do not want you to do this.

All that boycotting or social media pressure or 'making your voice heard' accomplishes is make YOU feel better about the situation. It only accomplishes temporarily absolving YOU of the moral/ethical dilemma of being intimately involved in an exploitative industry. Because YOU feel like you've done something, you've contributed, you've helped in some way. And it's largely hypocritical and vain.
Yes, clearly the only non vain, non hypocritical, non selfish action one can possibly take here is relent, call their congressman and spend $59.99. You've sure figured it out.

edit: Thinking on it this warrants a fuller response. I'm not sure what political fantasy world you operate in but I live in America, where corporate interests and lobbying set the agenda 95% of the time in this industry (and most industries sadly). If you want to talk about a futile response that realistically leads nowhere then certainly privately contact your representatives on this issue and spend $60. And hey, while you're at it remind them we're still letting kids gamble too while spending another $60 on your annual shooter or sports title of choice.

The reality is that legistation in the public interest here almost always follows public outcry, not the reverse, and mechanisms like social media or the press are core drivers of that. There isn't one singular route here and your continued dismissal of doing anything that at all could involve spurring any degree of public interest, plus your complete degradation of personal moral choice, I find totally insulting and transparent.
 
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Karateka

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,940
I still havent beat tlou but i just have much time to game anymore. Maybe one day. Maybe games with crunch ill just buy used from now on. Will have to think about it.
 
Jan 31, 2018
271
I did the same thing with Red Dead Redemption 2 and Rockstar's awful culture. Didn't buy it until the game was $15 last holiday. I'll be doing the same with The Last of Us 2, buying that super cheap. I'm interested in supporting the devs through my buying habits. Plenty of other games out there and let's face it, backlogs will keep me busy.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,165
I don't plan on buying tlou 2 until it's on sale, but I kind of feel like this is a dev problem more so than a customer related one. If devs want to unionize, or band together to go on strike. I support that. I'm not going to whine about a game being delayed while they fight for themselves. If boycotts gain traction and are shown to work that's great, stand for what you believe in. I'm not sure it's our place here though. I recognize there is human cost, but not as much as the devs do and they have far more say than thousands of us looking in from the outside. If developers want to call the public to support their cause, please do, I will be there. I applaud and stand by the reason for boycotting this game or other games, but I question our place in the discussion sometimes.
 

Iacomus

Member
Dec 26, 2018
803
IMO I believe this a just cause, but will not cause a dent or matter.

TLOU2 is pretty hyped (and nothing will stop it) I've mentioned the name to a few people and they all say the same, they want to find out the story of the characters that they adore. Their admiration is also the same hype around Game of Thrones, as TLOU2 is one of the wanted game of this year or in case ever.

I remember a Jim Sterling video about how video games industry have made a team have one spokesman. Neil Druckmann and Cory Balrog are those spokesmen and they're both pro-crunch and they're not going anywhere. Will Sony step up before or after the release? Not as long as TLOU2 and Neil B is making them money. A statement might be put out after release, saying they'll change but will they?

I wish I was more positive about this sitution but you're against a juggernaut. They don't care.