-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
#CrunchNoMore I will not buy Last of Us 2. Join me
- Thread starter RexNovis
- Start date
The problem of the games you mentioned is rushed development, and we know that Sony gives ND the time they want.
I think devs should unonize, or do anything to stop this crunch, but not because I fear for their quality.
He is debating the whole situation without any understanding or reasoning
Typical ''Naught Gods good! Haters bad! Shame on you! Pre-order now!'' Era
lol they are already leaving!
Last edited:
I don't remember Cyberpunk 2077's topic about crunching being so...active, earlier this year. And it was its own CEO saying they would be required to do so even with the delay.
Not only that, but even last year, Jason Schreier at the time wrote a report on that game's crunch. I can only imagine what those guys are going through. That game feels like it's in production forever. It was announced in 2013, production started in 2015, we're in 2020 and...well...still nothing.
I bet these two developers will be severely burned out by the end of it all. It's really a shame this happens like this. But then...isn't Rockstar known to do this? Basically...the top 3 best games i've see lately (visually) went / go though this. It's not a coincidence...but at what cost?
Not only that, but even last year, Jason Schreier at the time wrote a report on that game's crunch. I can only imagine what those guys are going through. That game feels like it's in production forever. It was announced in 2013, production started in 2015, we're in 2020 and...well...still nothing.
I bet these two developers will be severely burned out by the end of it all. It's really a shame this happens like this. But then...isn't Rockstar known to do this? Basically...the top 3 best games i've see lately (visually) went / go though this. It's not a coincidence...but at what cost?
It is something that needs to improve. But People do realise that other industries also have tough times, I have just come off the back of a 60 hour week not including my 2 hour per day commute. Not quite as bad as what this story alludes to, but hard nonetheless. I am ok with it though.
And let's remember where the hardware is built. It's far worse conditions than what any naughty dog employee has to deal with.
Also is this a poor timing article when we see so many health care workers dead on their feet dealing with a global pandemic?
And let's remember where the hardware is built. It's far worse conditions than what any naughty dog employee has to deal with.
Also is this a poor timing article when we see so many health care workers dead on their feet dealing with a global pandemic?
First of all no...they are not killing themselves. But that does happen in several Chinese factories where even suicide nets have been installed so workers don't jump from the buildings...but we don't think about that as long as we get our brand new phones, consoles, clothes, etc, right?
Second, in no place anyone has said 70% of people from UC4 left Naughty Dog. What that Kotaku article says is this:
So it's not even similar to what you're implying. Naughty Dog also lost a lot of people after Uncharted 2...and we got The Last of Us after that.
Sony Santa Monica went through much more dramatic changes when they had to cancel that project where they lost almost all their money...and we got God of War years later, known to be one of the best reboots of all time in gaming.
Things have to change at Naughty Dog? Yes, they do. Like they do with Cyberphunk 2077's developer and most of all the others. But your post has a lot of suppositions and you are in no place to talk about the talent of current Naughty Dog when their last game was 3 years ago. And you even dismissed that guys comment about how great the game looks by saying "he left a long time ago". Does that mean the game is looking worse and worse for no reason? What led you to think that? We have no indication of it.
Then why work there?
Im not in game dev so maybe it's not that simple but if i feel my job was pressuring me to work an insane number of extra hours against my will then I would probably find another job. I can only imagine someone with Naughty dog on their resume could probably latch on to another dev fairly easily.
User Banned (3days): Whataboutism, ignoring the staff post
Are you going to boycott the iPhone, PS5, Xbox Series X too OP? The last time I heard, the Chinese government has made the Uighurs detainees in their concentration camps work up to 12 hours a day with No PAY in factories that are making your favourite electronics good.
I'd rather enjoy and appreciate all the hard work they have put into it and play it.
This.
This.
That's sounding a lot like the fallacy of relative privation, there.
Because the majority of places which you could conceivably get a job at are not better, just different degrees of bad. You might get more lower hours but your pay would be significantly worse or higher pay but with the expectation that you work 16-hour days in crunch and that the crunch is 3-4 months longer.
Additionally, the competition for the jobs with the best work/life balance is fierce and, when you're already working long hours, it's hard to balance your personal life and your time with your partner/children with the ability to take the time to network and build the connections to move to a better position.
Also, if you do leave, you now have to worry about a lack of money because you're not earning and you may not even qualify for unemployment benefits. Now your savings (which are likely limited from usually having to live in a high cost of living area where most of the big studios are) are getting depleted and that's another stress point.
Devs aren't stupid. Of course they've thought of leaving but once you're in that particular work ecosystem, it's hard to get out.
This is such a smug, shitty "gotcha" argument. Saying that you're choosing to try and ethically consume one type of good doesn't mean that you are obligated to someone how also ethically consume every other purchase in your life.
For the record, just so you have your answer, yes, I've tried to buy all my consoles second-hand from private sellers instead of sending a dime to the console manufacturers. The last console I bought from a store was a Switch back in 2017, before the slavery news was known to me. Same for my other electronics. I have a new iPhone and Chromebook that we're paid for by my workplace and I asked them about ethical sourcing but was told that there was no option to have that.
Ditto for all my games. The only reason I have RDR2, for example, is that my wife got a free copy from some leftover gifts at a work raffle.
So, yes, I try to ethically consume in all aspects of my life but I'm not going to judge people because they want to ethically source their games but not everything else. The majority of people don't have the time/ability to search for ethical sources of products like phones which are often a necessary part of life. But games are not essential or necessary. No one is going to literally die because they didn't get to play The Last of Us 2 and their body gave up the ghost of life.
I have to buy it day one. Hopefully the working environment will improve going forward, but I'm going to stop buying their games.
I've already preordered this and ready to go so I'm not in as some of those here. I hope to see Druckmann or Naughty Dog themselves face up and talk about this issue but I don't see it happening till maybe when the game is out.
I'd like to see at least some unionization talks though as I feel that employees having some power to their job is always best.
I'd like to see at least some unionization talks though as I feel that employees having some power to their job is always best.
Seems fair, but it's also worth noting consoles are made by Foxconn, and there's currently a pinned thread about Uighurs been forced to work in factories for foreign brand like those who make our consoles. Forced labour or working for Foxconn is way worse than crunch immo. Let me be clear, I'm not saying crunch is ok, it's an horrible practice that should stop, but if we want to be ethical, we should stop gaming I guess.
Boycotting is fine, but I'm sure that's not the only way (nor the best one) to make these companies take note. If a game bomb, I fail to see why exec would think it's because crunch culture. We should be vocal about it, make thread, put "pressure" on social media in addition to not buying the game.
Boycotting is fine, but I'm sure that's not the only way (nor the best one) to make these companies take note. If a game bomb, I fail to see why exec would think it's because crunch culture. We should be vocal about it, make thread, put "pressure" on social media in addition to not buying the game.
Thanks for sharing this.
I think OP is right in taking this stance. If you don't think crunch is good and you don't want to support a publisher that think this is the only way to make games, I think this is a good way of showing it (plus some extra actions, of course).
To all those saying things like "lol, you better stop buying 80% of all AAA games": besides showing you my middle finger and all that let me tell you something first: I already avoid those games so... thanks for showing how scummy you can be.
I would first prefer to boycott on behalf of manual laborers, retail, service, and associated workers who are making minimum wage living off payday loans and food stamps. It's hard to have sympathy for someone making $120,000 year in a climate controlled office with concession stands, nap areas, and recreational activities, regardless of some temporary hard hours. Maybe that's just me though.
Last edited:
The last Era boycott was Red Dead Redemption 2 and it turned out exactly as you expected.
How many of you are going to actually boycott Last of Us 2 and FFf7 (yes FF7 because it's not japanese AAA that is going to have better working conditions ...) ?
The answer is very little.
You can bring awareness to an issue and have a discussion about it, prompting Sony and ND to answer and try to do better, without "boycotting" the hard work that went into a project.
If you've ever worked in movies or videogames, it's hard to avoid crunch environments, there's always a period of time where everybody feels like they can make the project better by spending more time on it. It's a viscous circle.
The answer would be to delay projects over and over but it's also not always realistically possible to do that. So I think maybe instead it should have better ways to handle crunch itself. Make sure workers can take breaks whenever needed, better pay, maybe even have a mental health specialist on site to let anyone speak their mind if they have an issue, and have understanding leaders that can reassure and allow people to stop if they need to without fear of being let go.
If everything is put in place to create a healthier environment even with crunch times, and some employees can't handle it, then delay the game.
Systematic delays can not work. It may for this specific case with Sony money and a first party studio but yeah.
How many of you are going to actually boycott Last of Us 2 and FFf7 (yes FF7 because it's not japanese AAA that is going to have better working conditions ...) ?
The answer is very little.
You can bring awareness to an issue and have a discussion about it, prompting Sony and ND to answer and try to do better, without "boycotting" the hard work that went into a project.
If you've ever worked in movies or videogames, it's hard to avoid crunch environments, there's always a period of time where everybody feels like they can make the project better by spending more time on it. It's a viscous circle.
The answer would be to delay projects over and over but it's also not always realistically possible to do that. So I think maybe instead it should have better ways to handle crunch itself. Make sure workers can take breaks whenever needed, better pay, maybe even have a mental health specialist on site to let anyone speak their mind if they have an issue, and have understanding leaders that can reassure and allow people to stop if they need to without fear of being let go.
If everything is put in place to create a healthier environment even with crunch times, and some employees can't handle it, then delay the game.
Systematic delays can not work. It may for this specific case with Sony money and a first party studio but yeah.
From the perspective of a top 10-20%'er, or a videogame forum idolizing the heroes of their hobby, no. From the perspective of the bottom 80-90% of the country (or the entirety of the outsourced countries), yes.
I completly agree with this statement, I don't work in Game Dev but I do work in Software Development and we have periods of crunch but are rewarded well for it.
If I were to mention to some of my less fortunate friends all of the perks that came with my job(including the salary) but moaned about the hours they'd probably slap me.
I've got friends that are Farmers, Bakers, Builders etc. and they put in some real hours.
I wonder has anyone asked developers what they want to do, or want us to do?
Do the developers want you to boycott their game?
If they don't, why are you going against their wishes?
We already have a dev in here saying that boycotting will do nothing but hurt the developers you want to help.
Do the developers want you to boycott their game?
If they don't, why are you going against their wishes?
We already have a dev in here saying that boycotting will do nothing but hurt the developers you want to help.
Serious question, are they still in crunch dev time with the coronavirus spreading like crazy? Did dev grind to a hault?
Literally in the Kotaku article it states that some of the Naughty Dog devs hope that the game fails to send a message to leadership.
I was also a former dev and I'd be happy if consumers would at least try to ethically consume games, even if I know it's unlikely.
I understand the timing and target of the OP wrt that Jason Schreier article, but unfortunately this will result in very few people changing their minds, with one side justifying, excusing or whatabout-ing the practice, and the other saying they won't buy it when they weren't going to anyway. Neither of which have to do with the topic of crunch.
It needs to be framed as a blanket movement.
It needs to be framed as a blanket movement.
I don't understand the point of posts like these. If someone's saying they don't want to buy a game due to an ethical standpoint they're taking about developers being overworked to an astoundingly awful degree, why would you just come into the thread and be like "you're gonna buy it anyway lol"
Because, being the head of his own company, he has some degree of control over his own situation. A non-unionized workforce at Naughty Dog / Sony has close to bupkis. Sakurai's issues seem like the product of his own (even by Japanese standards) unhealthy work ethic, rather than a toxic work environment.
For reference: https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...d80-000-working-less-than-eight-hours-per-day
That's a false dichotomy. As you can do both.
Hulst won't do anything.
Bringing awareness to the issues and supporting unionization is key. Boycotting their products is not, if the company's bottom line is going to hurt that hurt will pass directly to the employees in the trenches.
So no. I will support their hard work with my money while still striving for and supporting ideals that hopefully put an end to this practice. Crunch like this should be tackled by changes from the top down, not from the bottom up. Boycotts have never, ever worked in this industry.
So no. I will support their hard work with my money while still striving for and supporting ideals that hopefully put an end to this practice. Crunch like this should be tackled by changes from the top down, not from the bottom up. Boycotts have never, ever worked in this industry.
EA will not crunch for the foreseeable future because of the massive lawsuit they lost years ago. It was the main reason many companies started paying overtime in California.
As for the boycott, this will hurt the devs more than the publishers and studio heads. If the game bombs there will be layoffs and or bonuses cut. This is the worst time for that :/
As for the boycott, this will hurt the devs more than the publishers and studio heads. If the game bombs there will be layoffs and or bonuses cut. This is the worst time for that :/
User Banned (3 days): ignoring staff post, trolling
Half of them will do that. The other half doesn't even have a PS4 and are just here waiting the "Mighty Naughty Gods" to fail so they weren't buying it anyway.
In the end it's the ERA bubble working.
User Banned (3 Days): Ignoring Staff Post; Trolling
Many of those people are the sames ones that are going to buy Cyberpunk day 1, pretty funny.
Boycotting is not how you stop the practice of crunch. Especially when the product in question is destined to sell millions of copies regardless.
Crunch is a product of a thousand different things, most of which are completely beyond our capacity to change in any practical, significant, or lasting way. I don't say that to discourage; we can absolutely do some things, like advocate for the unionization of game developers. But we have to be aware this is a systemic problem that is not going to be solved quickly or easily. A couple dozen people on an enthusiast forum deciding to abstain* from buying a game is not going to cut it.
* (And mostly not for very long. Historically, we're not very good at these things, to put it mildly)
Crunch is a product of a thousand different things, most of which are completely beyond our capacity to change in any practical, significant, or lasting way. I don't say that to discourage; we can absolutely do some things, like advocate for the unionization of game developers. But we have to be aware this is a systemic problem that is not going to be solved quickly or easily. A couple dozen people on an enthusiast forum deciding to abstain* from buying a game is not going to cut it.
* (And mostly not for very long. Historically, we're not very good at these things, to put it mildly)
The message here is that boycotts don't work this way, and that people are selective in what they boycott anyway.
What I believe these people are saying is this: the world is a tough place and we should constantly be working on improving it - but getting angry at one specific thing and boycotting a specific product in a sea of hardship does not improve this world. This thread will not make game development better. However, pushing for better laws, unionization, social media pressure - these things might.
The problem with a boycott is that workers in the industry don't support it. You're harming them against their wishes. From the CWA's Emma Kinema, co-founder of Game Workers Unite:
While it's great that you want to show solidarity, we should only be boycotting when the affected workers call for it.
I think that's a good resource to have so well done on making the effort.
No no, i do get that.
I was going to put this in my post. But i was mainly responding that that post, because it just seemed that was using that argument to just dismiss devs working conditions.
People don't want to feel guilty about the smallest thing, so what the best course of action? well we just convince ourselves that's everyone on the other side are hypocritical who gonna do the same as us anyway.
Seriously even as someone who's not on the boycott strategy I believe if it make you feel better so be it, even if it's not gonna change anything, it's all about what you believe in and at the very least you are doing something which better than feeling sorry about people and keep on living the same way.
Last edited:
OK, fair enough 😸
I think it's great that there are people that want to do stuff (and also sad there's so many who don't). Just as long as everyone understands that the only real solutions is for workers to organise.
They already have nothing to lose. If the game flopped, Sony execs will then sit up and find out what's wrong. At the moment, Sony is closing an eye and letting ND cruise because ND' games are generating sales.
User Banned (3 days): Trolling, ignoring staff post
What an hypocrit thread. I can imagine the "sent from my iPhone, with my Nike shoes".
The game seems awesome, I'm getting it on day one to congratulate the team behind the game.
The game seems awesome, I'm getting it on day one to congratulate the team behind the game.