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Jade1962

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,259
I rather vote for and campaign for politicians that want to empower workers. While crunch at these studio's is an issue I feel the average employee at these dev houses has a lot more political power and ability to fight for themselves and aren't a paycheck away from being on the streets that my time and efforts would be better served fighting for those less privileged.

I commend OP on his dedication to this but like with most issues the government only has the power to actually make changes to labor laws and their enforcement.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,404
The developers already got paid line seems like bullshit. We've heard a lot about how dev bonuses are tied to metacritic scores and sales.
So, ex-AAA dev here with some feedback for those that actually want to change crunch practices.

1) Almost everyone crunches.

Most studios, especially in AAA, have crunch. In fact, out of the four different publishers I have worked for, every single one expected ALL studios under them to crunch to hit milestones/deadlines. And studios oblige because you don't want to lose incentives, bonuses, funding, or support staff. The list of studios who don't crunch - the list of products that are made 'crunch-free' is going to be unbelievably small if you are looking at AAA products. So if you plan to boycott products that are made in toxic work environments - it's going to be the vast majority of games. That's just how the industry is and boycotting isn't going to solve that.

Oh, and side note: People lie. Or exaggerate. Or downplay. I have had other developers in my own studio during crunch claim to not be crunching because we were only working 60-70 hours a week. Because their last studio worked 80+ during crunch. So this isn't crunch. Because we're in some toxic environment Olympics and shit ain't as bad as the worst experience I've ever had so...

Or, my personal favorite, when "We don't have crunch" actually means "We don't have mandatory crunch". Let me tell you about 'voluntary overtime'. It ain't voluntary. There are always punishments for not 'volunteering' to work extra hours during 'not crunch'. Either you start getting bad performance reviews from your bosses because it 'doesn't seem like you are putting in the extra effort'. Or you get left off emails or meetings out of spite. Or you get reassigned to some other part of the project that is less prestigious or more rudimentary, grunt work. Or you just straight up get demoted or fired. And what quickly happens is that you are bullied into either crunching (but 'not crunching') or pushed out of the company.

There are a lot of developers willing to publicly tow the company line that they 'don't crunch' because it's voluntary. Or their work environment isn't toxic because 'we have great benefits'. I have worked for some exceptionally shitty companies and every single one had developers willing to go in front of the media and proclaim just how awesome the studio and work environment were.

2) Boycotting punishes developers more than publishers.

I've seen countless players (and the media) claim to be fighting the industry's business practices - be it loot boxes, microtransactions, crunch, storefront exclusivity, whatever - by either boycotting products or giving poor reviews. And somehow this will show those in control of these products (publishers) that their ways are wrong. It doesn't. The people at the top of most of these companies are... fucking insane. There's probably more appropriate word to describe their behavior but I don't know what it is. There's no introspection going on when something with the game doesn't pan out. Bad reviews don't make studio heads and publishers think "Oh, geez, maybe it was the bullshit monetization we did that tanked the product!"

What happens is - excuses get made that are almost universally laid on the development team. YOU didn't implement our vision properly. YOU didn't work hard enough on these features. YOU didn't do enough crunch. YOU missed this milestone and that's why our game bombed.

Bonuses are withheld, developers are laid off, benefits at the studio are slashed.

This shit don't work.

Oh, by the way, one thing about this I want to highlight: Bonuses in the game industry.

Base salary
at a lot of game studios is actually pretty low. I know every time the Game Developer Salary survey (or something similar) comes out and people look and see "OMG, devs make $90k a year!". Yeah, most of those are reporting ALL income - including bonuses. Bonuses are a HUGE portion of overall income for some developers. I have seen developers earn anywhere from 10%-100% of their yearly salary in a launch bonus. So, sure, I may have made $120k this year, but half of that was from the launch bonus.

But then the game gets bad sales for whatever reason. Or bad reviews. Well, my bonus was tied to a combination of metacritic score and sales benchmarks. And now I get nothing. The studio head still walks away with a six figure bonus. The publisher executives get paid 10x my salary regardless. The only person actually feeling any financial punishment are the developers.

So, buy whatever the hell you want. While developers probably appreciate the gesture, you aren't actually fixing any problems - and you might actually be actively hurting the people you are trying to stand up for.

Edit: Another reason talking about this is so damn hard is that even within the same studio, different jobs can have wildly different contracts and experiences. My experiences have been as a full time systems designer. I know other developers - especially artists - under contract rather than full time will not have the same issues with bonuses or even the same experiences with crunch. Sometimes one department will be working 80+ hours a week while another department, with different management, deadlines, etc., will be working 40 hours. One developer claiming bonuses matter while another claims they don't are not actually disagreeing - they just don't have the same work contract details. Just as one developer claiming they're not working crunch doesn't necessarily mean no one in the entire studio is, or vice versa.

This is really eye opening.
 

Faenix1

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,114
Canada
I mean, you do you, but I fully plan to keep my preorder. Crunch sucks, but there are better ways I'm sure to get awareness.
 

Mantrox

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,908
You have no idea how many developers I have had claim they don't want a union because it would prevent them the 'option' of working more hours on their 'passion'.

I don't know the best course of action. I left the industry because it felt so hopeless. You'd scream that you were drowning and another developer would point out you weren't in the deepest part of the ocean yet, so were you really drowning that bad? That's the kind of thing that gets said constantly when you bring up toxic work culture topics in the games industry.
Yeah, this kind of quasi indoctrination is bad for anybody trying to maintain a healthy work environment, nevermind building mommentum for change.

I suppose the only thing people really can do is vote for better workplace protections, better employment laws and give developers the legal tools to fight certain companies on the most egregious abuses.

One of the things a lot of people don't realize is that the legal distinctions that make fighting the industry so hard are the exceptions to most employment laws that the games industry falls into (in the US). Most employment laws have exceptions built in for certain industries that need special leeway based on how they do business. There are different exceptions for different industries. For example, Entertainment has some exceptions. Software Development has other exceptions. Game companies have positioned themselves as Entertainment Software - such that they believe, and will legally argue, they fall under both sets of exceptions to certain employment laws - something which I don't believe was really meant to happen. This gives them incredible leeway to ignore a whole slew of legal guidelines that employees could use to fight abusive employers.
That's... rough.
Basically, unless a series of scandals propell the media to pressure these corporations (and politicians) for answers and reform, it's all in the hands of the workers themselves to fight the legal\political battle.


Do you see the general public having any kind of sway? In any form?
Or it's just dollars and cents at the end of the day?
 

labx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,326
Medellín, Colombia
No OP, that is not the way. Crunch is bad and it is all across the workforce system. Not only video-games. But boycotting a the product made by the people who made enormous sacrifices to make it the best kind of product is counter productive. I had to crunch when I was a line cook, before I was y Psychologist. Imagine if people stopped getting food at the restaurant I was in. The only way to change this systemic problems are from the inside out, not the outside in. Unions, syndicates, rules, laws, are the way.
 

SpaceCrystal

Banned
Apr 1, 2019
7,714
So, ex-AAA dev here with some feedback for those that actually want to change crunch practices.

1) Almost everyone crunches.

Most studios, especially in AAA, have crunch. In fact, out of the four different publishers I have worked for, every single one expected ALL studios under them to crunch to hit milestones/deadlines. And studios oblige because you don't want to lose incentives, bonuses, funding, or support staff. The list of studios who don't crunch - the list of products that are made 'crunch-free' is going to be unbelievably small if you are looking at AAA products. So if you plan to boycott products that are made in toxic work environments - it's going to be the vast majority of games. That's just how the industry is and boycotting isn't going to solve that.

Oh, and side note: People lie. Or exaggerate. Or downplay. I have had other developers in my own studio during crunch claim to not be crunching because we were only working 60-70 hours a week. Because their last studio worked 80+ during crunch. So this isn't crunch. Because we're in some toxic environment Olympics and shit ain't as bad as the worst experience I've ever had so...

Or, my personal favorite, when "We don't have crunch" actually means "We don't have mandatory crunch". Let me tell you about 'voluntary overtime'. It ain't voluntary. There are always punishments for not 'volunteering' to work extra hours during 'not crunch'. Either you start getting bad performance reviews from your bosses because it 'doesn't seem like you are putting in the extra effort'. Or you get left off emails or meetings out of spite. Or you get reassigned to some other part of the project that is less prestigious or more rudimentary, grunt work. Or you just straight up get demoted or fired. And what quickly happens is that you are bullied into either crunching (but 'not crunching') or pushed out of the company.

There are a lot of developers willing to publicly tow the company line that they 'don't crunch' because it's voluntary. Or their work environment isn't toxic because 'we have great benefits'. I have worked for some exceptionally shitty companies and every single one had developers willing to go in front of the media and proclaim just how awesome the studio and work environment were.

2) Boycotting punishes developers more than publishers.

I've seen countless players (and the media) claim to be fighting the industry's business practices - be it loot boxes, microtransactions, crunch, storefront exclusivity, whatever - by either boycotting products or giving poor reviews. And somehow this will show those in control of these products (publishers) that their ways are wrong. It doesn't. The people at the top of most of these companies are... fucking insane. There's probably more appropriate word to describe their behavior but I don't know what it is. There's no introspection going on when something with the game doesn't pan out. Bad reviews don't make studio heads and publishers think "Oh, geez, maybe it was the bullshit monetization we did that tanked the product!"

What happens is - excuses get made that are almost universally laid on the development team. YOU didn't implement our vision properly. YOU didn't work hard enough on these features. YOU didn't do enough crunch. YOU missed this milestone and that's why our game bombed.

Bonuses are withheld, developers are laid off, benefits at the studio are slashed.

This shit don't work.

Oh, by the way, one thing about this I want to highlight: Bonuses in the game industry.

Base salary
at a lot of game studios is actually pretty low. I know every time the Game Developer Salary survey (or something similar) comes out and people look and see "OMG, devs make $90k a year!". Yeah, most of those are reporting ALL income - including bonuses. Bonuses are a HUGE portion of overall income for some developers. I have seen developers earn anywhere from 10%-100% of their yearly salary in a launch bonus. So, sure, I may have made $120k this year, but half of that was from the launch bonus.

But then the game gets bad sales for whatever reason. Or bad reviews. Well, my bonus was tied to a combination of metacritic score and sales benchmarks. And now I get nothing. The studio head still walks away with a six figure bonus. The publisher executives get paid 10x my salary regardless. The only person actually feeling any financial punishment are the developers.

So, buy whatever the hell you want. While developers probably appreciate the gesture, you aren't actually fixing any problems - and you might actually be actively hurting the people you are trying to stand up for.

Edit: Another reason talking about this is so damn hard is that even within the same studio, different jobs can have wildly different contracts and experiences. My experiences have been as a full time systems designer. I know other developers - especially artists - under contract rather than full time will not have the same issues with bonuses or even the same experiences with crunch. Sometimes one department will be working 80+ hours a week while another department, with different management, deadlines, etc., will be working 40 hours. One developer claiming bonuses matter while another claims they don't are not actually disagreeing - they just don't have the same work contract details. Just as one developer claiming they're not working crunch doesn't necessarily mean no one in the entire studio is, or vice versa.

I hope that everyone reads this very insightful statement.
 
OP
OP
RexNovis

RexNovis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,174
For those saying why don't I protest the working conditions in China: I don't plan to buy a PS5, XSX, or any other device that is not literally required for me to work or live if it has been produced under the conditions mentioned.

so don't assume that just because I care enough about this to say I won't spend my money to enable it means I don't care about other things enough to do the same.

that said this thread is about the work environment (Crunch dependent) at Naughty Dog and the industry at large. It is not about the situation in China.I would appreciate it if people actually discussed the topic of this thread instead of dismissing concerns because other evils exist in the world.

let me be clear I am choosing not to spend my money to support studios that engage in or encourage extended crunch at the cost of people's health and well being. Unlike many of the things that are made with exploitative means games are entertainment and I can afford to not purchase them without preventing me from living or working. This is unfortunately not the case for many things in the modern world but that just means, in my opinion, it's all the more important to take a stand whenever and wherever you actually can afford to do so. I hope others feel the same
 
Last edited:

aerie

wonky
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
8,035
I rather vote for and campaign for politicians that want to empower workers. While crunch at these studio's is an issue I feel the average employee at these dev houses has a lot more political power and ability to fight for themselves and aren't a paycheck away from being on the streets that my time and efforts would be better served fighting for those less privileged.

I commend OP on his dedication to this but like with most issues the government only has the power to actually make changes to labor laws and their enforcement.
This is generally how I feel regarding these issues. I'll absolutely support the employees by voting, supporting unions, and just by general activism around the subject, as I think that is the most effective way to create positive change here.
 

SleepSmasher

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,094
Australia
For those saying why don't I protest the working conditions in China: I don't plan to buy a PS5, XSX, or any other device that is not literally required for me to work or live if it has been produced under the conditions mentioned.

so don't assume that just because I care enough about this to say I won't spend my money to enable it means I don't care about other things enough to do the same.

that said this thread is about the work environment (Crunch dependent) at Naughty Dog and the industry at large. It is not about the situation in China.I would appreciate it if people actually discussed the topic of this thread instead of dismissing concerns because other evils exist in the world.
Well, if you're so inclined in discussing the main topic here, why not replying to the main points made by the most insightful post in this thread, where the takeaway is "this doesn't work"?
 

ArkkAngel007

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,996
I'd rather write in to their offices or those of Sony Worldwide Studios, look into resources that can help them with the possibility of unionizing, and a multitude of other things that have a more direct message and impact on the issue at hand. I'm not saying there isn't purposes to boycotts, but this is an industry-wide issue that isn't going to be solved by the market abandoning it. IMO it's less than the bare minimum, as the lack of sales alone doesn't reflect anything on crunch periods, nor should it be expected for it to be anything but be at the bottom of reasons that publishers and development house management would take into consideration.

I hope Jason and the others can keep up the spotlight on these things, and that the industry can find a way to protect itself from these practices. Though, we are in such a union adverse culture globally that it's going to be a long time before there's a major win there.
 

Astronut325

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,948
Los Angeles, CA
I've really waffled on this. I love videogames but I can't give up buying 99% of games because almost all of them are made under crunch. I tried to take a stand before, but no matter what studio or publisher I go end up buying from... they did crunch to deliver the game. I don't think it's a problem that we consumers can solve when almost the entire industry engages in this practice. I think. I'm open to suggestions.

I find this really sad because my son said he wanted to make games in the future and I told him no, you will work all the time and you will end up hating videogames. He surprising understood that and now doesn't want to make games.
 

RedOnePunch

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,628
Like most corporations out there, the employee year end bonuses are probably tied to performance of the company as a whole in addition to whatever sales bonuses they have. This is all for the FTE's though. I'm sure contractors don't get shit.

I'm all for fans and consumers voting with their wallets. There has to be other ways to help as well but ultimately the industry workers have to take matters into their own hands and do something about it. Won't be easy but they'll hopefully have the gaming community behind them (I doubt it).
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,112
I respect people who want to take action. However I don't personally believe a boycott of a game is an effective action. Having spoken to many artists working on the game, I can easily say that their preference would be for me to buy their game. So that is what I will be doing.
 

julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,270
So are you going to apply that to the things you wear and use including phones and electronic devices?

I already do for the most a lot of things, buying used and limiting the number of things i own. But not everything is as easy as videogames to pass on. They're super easy. Not so much a smartphone or laptop. But i try.
 

Algorum

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt-account
Banned
Dec 23, 2018
580
I'd say no.

Much worse things happen in this world than a couple of developers deciding if they want to suffer or not. It's a video game at the end of the day anyway.

Respect but I can't say I agree much either.
 

ObbyDent

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,910
Los Angeles
Why do you think that boycotting the game will help the people you claim to care about?

It won't. Even if the 200 people on this board who might boycott somehow cause the gross of this game to go down, all that will hurt is the bonuses of the devs who didn't get overtime making the game.

Boycotting serves only to help the consumer who feels guilty. Instead, it might be better to write to these companies or try and start a dialog while supporting those affected by these companies.
 

CRIMSON-XIII

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,173
Chicago, IL
I want to mention a bit. Is anyone else genuinely thinking about the quality of said game. The twitter thread yesterday really got me thinking. "A more talented team would have shipped this game a year ago" .. Were they not trying to avoid Days Gone a bit? Could this have been a much better videogame with a more senior team overall, as far as story?

Just because the game will look beautiful, it does not mean that it will have an oscar worthy story (in opinion, while LOU1 is a 10/10 for me, BUT the story is not all that for me.. It is mostly interactions and confrontations that i remember and specific moments).

I will likely keep my pre order, but i cannot help but wonder what kind of game this could have been.
 
Oct 30, 2017
831
South Coast, UK
Not buying a product because of how it is made more likely means we'll no longer get products like that, even if the goal here seems to be changing how it is made. If we're wanting to do that, enough noise needs to be made to actually encourage change. Voting with your wallet is more impactful when then finished product isn't what you want, rather than the means the studios employed to make it, y'know? Maybe I'm just being dumb, but that's my take on it.
 

RisingStar

Banned
Oct 8, 2019
4,849
So, ex-AAA dev here with some feedback for those that actually want to change crunch practices.

1) Almost everyone crunches.

Most studios, especially in AAA, have crunch. In fact, out of the four different publishers I have worked for, every single one expected ALL studios under them to crunch to hit milestones/deadlines. And studios oblige because you don't want to lose incentives, bonuses, funding, or support staff. The list of studios who don't crunch - the list of products that are made 'crunch-free' is going to be unbelievably small if you are looking at AAA products. So if you plan to boycott products that are made in toxic work environments - it's going to be the vast majority of games. That's just how the industry is and boycotting isn't going to solve that.

Oh, and side note: People lie. Or exaggerate. Or downplay. I have had other developers in my own studio during crunch claim to not be crunching because we were only working 60-70 hours a week. Because their last studio worked 80+ during crunch. So this isn't crunch. Because we're in some toxic environment Olympics and shit ain't as bad as the worst experience I've ever had so...

Or, my personal favorite, when "We don't have crunch" actually means "We don't have mandatory crunch". Let me tell you about 'voluntary overtime'. It ain't voluntary. There are always punishments for not 'volunteering' to work extra hours during 'not crunch'. Either you start getting bad performance reviews from your bosses because it 'doesn't seem like you are putting in the extra effort'. Or you get left off emails or meetings out of spite. Or you get reassigned to some other part of the project that is less prestigious or more rudimentary, grunt work. Or you just straight up get demoted or fired. And what quickly happens is that you are bullied into either crunching (but 'not crunching') or pushed out of the company.

There are a lot of developers willing to publicly tow the company line that they 'don't crunch' because it's voluntary. Or their work environment isn't toxic because 'we have great benefits'. I have worked for some exceptionally shitty companies and every single one had developers willing to go in front of the media and proclaim just how awesome the studio and work environment were.

2) Boycotting punishes developers more than publishers.

I've seen countless players (and the media) claim to be fighting the industry's business practices - be it loot boxes, microtransactions, crunch, storefront exclusivity, whatever - by either boycotting products or giving poor reviews. And somehow this will show those in control of these products (publishers) that their ways are wrong. It doesn't. The people at the top of most of these companies are... fucking insane. There's probably more appropriate word to describe their behavior but I don't know what it is. There's no introspection going on when something with the game doesn't pan out. Bad reviews don't make studio heads and publishers think "Oh, geez, maybe it was the bullshit monetization we did that tanked the product!"

What happens is - excuses get made that are almost universally laid on the development team. YOU didn't implement our vision properly. YOU didn't work hard enough on these features. YOU didn't do enough crunch. YOU missed this milestone and that's why our game bombed.

Bonuses are withheld, developers are laid off, benefits at the studio are slashed.

This shit don't work.

Oh, by the way, one thing about this I want to highlight: Bonuses in the game industry.

Base salary
at a lot of game studios is actually pretty low. I know every time the Game Developer Salary survey (or something similar) comes out and people look and see "OMG, devs make $90k a year!". Yeah, most of those are reporting ALL income - including bonuses. Bonuses are a HUGE portion of overall income for some developers. I have seen developers earn anywhere from 10%-100% of their yearly salary in a launch bonus. So, sure, I may have made $120k this year, but half of that was from the launch bonus.

But then the game gets bad sales for whatever reason. Or bad reviews. Well, my bonus was tied to a combination of metacritic score and sales benchmarks. And now I get nothing. The studio head still walks away with a six figure bonus. The publisher executives get paid 10x my salary regardless. The only person actually feeling any financial punishment are the developers.

So, buy whatever the hell you want. While developers probably appreciate the gesture, you aren't actually fixing any problems - and you might actually be actively hurting the people you are trying to stand up for.

Edit: Another reason talking about this is so damn hard is that even within the same studio, different jobs can have wildly different contracts and experiences. My experiences have been as a full time systems designer. I know other developers - especially artists - under contract rather than full time will not have the same issues with bonuses or even the same experiences with crunch. Sometimes one department will be working 80+ hours a week while another department, with different management, deadlines, etc., will be working 40 hours. One developer claiming bonuses matter while another claims they don't are not actually disagreeing - they just don't have the same work contract details. Just as one developer claiming they're not working crunch doesn't necessarily mean no one in the entire studio is, or vice versa.

This needs to be pinned.

Additionally, as Project Manager, not in the gaming industry however I can also say that this is prevalent in most goods & services industries. I've had weeks where I did 60 hours and other weeks where I did 40 hours. Depends entirely on the crunch period of an upcoming project where we absolutely must hit our deadlines. However, I feel there's another matter here regarding the working conditions of Americans in general. The hours I've put in other countries were extreme outliers in my industry and only during crunch and end period of projects. Gaming industry is already very abusive in nature but throw in American work culture, and it's bound to be incredibly toxic.

Yes, there's Insomniac in the US and Media Molecule or others elsewhere, but they are more often than not the exception, not the rule.
 

Tiago Rodrigues

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 15, 2018
5,244
So, ex-AAA dev here with some feedback for those that actually want to change crunch practices.

1) Almost everyone crunches.

Most studios, especially in AAA, have crunch. In fact, out of the four different publishers I have worked for, every single one expected ALL studios under them to crunch to hit milestones/deadlines. And studios oblige because you don't want to lose incentives, bonuses, funding, or support staff. The list of studios who don't crunch - the list of products that are made 'crunch-free' is going to be unbelievably small if you are looking at AAA products. So if you plan to boycott products that are made in toxic work environments - it's going to be the vast majority of games. That's just how the industry is and boycotting isn't going to solve that.

Oh, and side note: People lie. Or exaggerate. Or downplay. I have had other developers in my own studio during crunch claim to not be crunching because we were only working 60-70 hours a week. Because their last studio worked 80+ during crunch. So this isn't crunch. Because we're in some toxic environment Olympics and shit ain't as bad as the worst experience I've ever had so...

Or, my personal favorite, when "We don't have crunch" actually means "We don't have mandatory crunch". Let me tell you about 'voluntary overtime'. It ain't voluntary. There are always punishments for not 'volunteering' to work extra hours during 'not crunch'. Either you start getting bad performance reviews from your bosses because it 'doesn't seem like you are putting in the extra effort'. Or you get left off emails or meetings out of spite. Or you get reassigned to some other part of the project that is less prestigious or more rudimentary, grunt work. Or you just straight up get demoted or fired. And what quickly happens is that you are bullied into either crunching (but 'not crunching') or pushed out of the company.

There are a lot of developers willing to publicly tow the company line that they 'don't crunch' because it's voluntary. Or their work environment isn't toxic because 'we have great benefits'. I have worked for some exceptionally shitty companies and every single one had developers willing to go in front of the media and proclaim just how awesome the studio and work environment were.

2) Boycotting punishes developers more than publishers.

I've seen countless players (and the media) claim to be fighting the industry's business practices - be it loot boxes, microtransactions, crunch, storefront exclusivity, whatever - by either boycotting products or giving poor reviews. And somehow this will show those in control of these products (publishers) that their ways are wrong. It doesn't. The people at the top of most of these companies are... fucking insane. There's probably more appropriate word to describe their behavior but I don't know what it is. There's no introspection going on when something with the game doesn't pan out. Bad reviews don't make studio heads and publishers think "Oh, geez, maybe it was the bullshit monetization we did that tanked the product!"

What happens is - excuses get made that are almost universally laid on the development team. YOU didn't implement our vision properly. YOU didn't work hard enough on these features. YOU didn't do enough crunch. YOU missed this milestone and that's why our game bombed.

Bonuses are withheld, developers are laid off, benefits at the studio are slashed.

This shit don't work.

Oh, by the way, one thing about this I want to highlight: Bonuses in the game industry.

Base salary
at a lot of game studios is actually pretty low. I know every time the Game Developer Salary survey (or something similar) comes out and people look and see "OMG, devs make $90k a year!". Yeah, most of those are reporting ALL income - including bonuses. Bonuses are a HUGE portion of overall income for some developers. I have seen developers earn anywhere from 10%-100% of their yearly salary in a launch bonus. So, sure, I may have made $120k this year, but half of that was from the launch bonus.

But then the game gets bad sales for whatever reason. Or bad reviews. Well, my bonus was tied to a combination of metacritic score and sales benchmarks. And now I get nothing. The studio head still walks away with a six figure bonus. The publisher executives get paid 10x my salary regardless. The only person actually feeling any financial punishment are the developers.

So, buy whatever the hell you want. While developers probably appreciate the gesture, you aren't actually fixing any problems - and you might actually be actively hurting the people you are trying to stand up for.

Edit: Another reason talking about this is so damn hard is that even within the same studio, different jobs can have wildly different contracts and experiences. My experiences have been as a full time systems designer. I know other developers - especially artists - under contract rather than full time will not have the same issues with bonuses or even the same experiences with crunch. Sometimes one department will be working 80+ hours a week while another department, with different management, deadlines, etc., will be working 40 hours. One developer claiming bonuses matter while another claims they don't are not actually disagreeing - they just don't have the same work contract details. Just as one developer claiming they're not working crunch doesn't necessarily mean no one in the entire studio is, or vice versa.

Exactly what i said a few pages ago. This hurts developers more than anyone else. And saying "they are already paid for making the game once it releases" doesn't really cut it.
Really eye opening. Thank you so much. But heartbreaking anyway.
 

Arion

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,807
So, ex-AAA dev here with some feedback for those that actually want to change crunch practices.

1) Almost everyone crunches.

Most studios, especially in AAA, have crunch. In fact, out of the four different publishers I have worked for, every single one expected ALL studios under them to crunch to hit milestones/deadlines. And studios oblige because you don't want to lose incentives, bonuses, funding, or support staff. The list of studios who don't crunch - the list of products that are made 'crunch-free' is going to be unbelievably small if you are looking at AAA products. So if you plan to boycott products that are made in toxic work environments - it's going to be the vast majority of games. That's just how the industry is and boycotting isn't going to solve that.

Oh, and side note: People lie. Or exaggerate. Or downplay. I have had other developers in my own studio during crunch claim to not be crunching because we were only working 60-70 hours a week. Because their last studio worked 80+ during crunch. So this isn't crunch. Because we're in some toxic environment Olympics and shit ain't as bad as the worst experience I've ever had so...

Or, my personal favorite, when "We don't have crunch" actually means "We don't have mandatory crunch". Let me tell you about 'voluntary overtime'. It ain't voluntary. There are always punishments for not 'volunteering' to work extra hours during 'not crunch'. Either you start getting bad performance reviews from your bosses because it 'doesn't seem like you are putting in the extra effort'. Or you get left off emails or meetings out of spite. Or you get reassigned to some other part of the project that is less prestigious or more rudimentary, grunt work. Or you just straight up get demoted or fired. And what quickly happens is that you are bullied into either crunching (but 'not crunching') or pushed out of the company.

There are a lot of developers willing to publicly tow the company line that they 'don't crunch' because it's voluntary. Or their work environment isn't toxic because 'we have great benefits'. I have worked for some exceptionally shitty companies and every single one had developers willing to go in front of the media and proclaim just how awesome the studio and work environment were.

2) Boycotting punishes developers more than publishers.

I've seen countless players (and the media) claim to be fighting the industry's business practices - be it loot boxes, microtransactions, crunch, storefront exclusivity, whatever - by either boycotting products or giving poor reviews. And somehow this will show those in control of these products (publishers) that their ways are wrong. It doesn't. The people at the top of most of these companies are... fucking insane. There's probably more appropriate word to describe their behavior but I don't know what it is. There's no introspection going on when something with the game doesn't pan out. Bad reviews don't make studio heads and publishers think "Oh, geez, maybe it was the bullshit monetization we did that tanked the product!"

What happens is - excuses get made that are almost universally laid on the development team. YOU didn't implement our vision properly. YOU didn't work hard enough on these features. YOU didn't do enough crunch. YOU missed this milestone and that's why our game bombed.

Bonuses are withheld, developers are laid off, benefits at the studio are slashed.

This shit don't work.

Oh, by the way, one thing about this I want to highlight: Bonuses in the game industry.

Base salary
at a lot of game studios is actually pretty low. I know every time the Game Developer Salary survey (or something similar) comes out and people look and see "OMG, devs make $90k a year!". Yeah, most of those are reporting ALL income - including bonuses. Bonuses are a HUGE portion of overall income for some developers. I have seen developers earn anywhere from 10%-100% of their yearly salary in a launch bonus. So, sure, I may have made $120k this year, but half of that was from the launch bonus.

But then the game gets bad sales for whatever reason. Or bad reviews. Well, my bonus was tied to a combination of metacritic score and sales benchmarks. And now I get nothing. The studio head still walks away with a six figure bonus. The publisher executives get paid 10x my salary regardless. The only person actually feeling any financial punishment are the developers.

So, buy whatever the hell you want. While developers probably appreciate the gesture, you aren't actually fixing any problems - and you might actually be actively hurting the people you are trying to stand up for.

Edit: Another reason talking about this is so damn hard is that even within the same studio, different jobs can have wildly different contracts and experiences. My experiences have been as a full time systems designer. I know other developers - especially artists - under contract rather than full time will not have the same issues with bonuses or even the same experiences with crunch. Sometimes one department will be working 80+ hours a week while another department, with different management, deadlines, etc., will be working 40 hours. One developer claiming bonuses matter while another claims they don't are not actually disagreeing - they just don't have the same work contract details. Just as one developer claiming they're not working crunch doesn't necessarily mean no one in the entire studio is, or vice versa.
This is very insightful. Thanks for the write-up.
 
OP
OP
RexNovis

RexNovis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,174
Exactly what I came to say. Not to mention many electronics, shoes and various other types of clothing. This boycott is 100% hypocritical. OP probably owns an iPhone.
You caught me. I own an iPhone 5 that I've had for I think 4 years now. I totally forgot this means I can't criticize or take a stance against anything ever because I dared have a 4 year old cell phone. I'm a terrible person
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,092
So, ex-AAA dev here with some feedback for those that actually want to change crunch practices.

1) Almost everyone crunches.

Most studios, especially in AAA, have crunch. In fact, out of the four different publishers I have worked for, every single one expected ALL studios under them to crunch to hit milestones/deadlines. And studios oblige because you don't want to lose incentives, bonuses, funding, or support staff. The list of studios who don't crunch - the list of products that are made 'crunch-free' is going to be unbelievably small if you are looking at AAA products. So if you plan to boycott products that are made in toxic work environments - it's going to be the vast majority of games. That's just how the industry is and boycotting isn't going to solve that.

Oh, and side note: People lie. Or exaggerate. Or downplay. I have had other developers in my own studio during crunch claim to not be crunching because we were only working 60-70 hours a week. Because their last studio worked 80+ during crunch. So this isn't crunch. Because we're in some toxic environment Olympics and shit ain't as bad as the worst experience I've ever had so...

Or, my personal favorite, when "We don't have crunch" actually means "We don't have mandatory crunch". Let me tell you about 'voluntary overtime'. It ain't voluntary. There are always punishments for not 'volunteering' to work extra hours during 'not crunch'. Either you start getting bad performance reviews from your bosses because it 'doesn't seem like you are putting in the extra effort'. Or you get left off emails or meetings out of spite. Or you get reassigned to some other part of the project that is less prestigious or more rudimentary, grunt work. Or you just straight up get demoted or fired. And what quickly happens is that you are bullied into either crunching (but 'not crunching') or pushed out of the company.

There are a lot of developers willing to publicly tow the company line that they 'don't crunch' because it's voluntary. Or their work environment isn't toxic because 'we have great benefits'. I have worked for some exceptionally shitty companies and every single one had developers willing to go in front of the media and proclaim just how awesome the studio and work environment were.

2) Boycotting punishes developers more than publishers.

I've seen countless players (and the media) claim to be fighting the industry's business practices - be it loot boxes, microtransactions, crunch, storefront exclusivity, whatever - by either boycotting products or giving poor reviews. And somehow this will show those in control of these products (publishers) that their ways are wrong. It doesn't. The people at the top of most of these companies are... fucking insane. There's probably more appropriate word to describe their behavior but I don't know what it is. There's no introspection going on when something with the game doesn't pan out. Bad reviews don't make studio heads and publishers think "Oh, geez, maybe it was the bullshit monetization we did that tanked the product!"

What happens is - excuses get made that are almost universally laid on the development team. YOU didn't implement our vision properly. YOU didn't work hard enough on these features. YOU didn't do enough crunch. YOU missed this milestone and that's why our game bombed.

Bonuses are withheld, developers are laid off, benefits at the studio are slashed.

This shit don't work.

Oh, by the way, one thing about this I want to highlight: Bonuses in the game industry.

Base salary
at a lot of game studios is actually pretty low. I know every time the Game Developer Salary survey (or something similar) comes out and people look and see "OMG, devs make $90k a year!". Yeah, most of those are reporting ALL income - including bonuses. Bonuses are a HUGE portion of overall income for some developers. I have seen developers earn anywhere from 10%-100% of their yearly salary in a launch bonus. So, sure, I may have made $120k this year, but half of that was from the launch bonus.

But then the game gets bad sales for whatever reason. Or bad reviews. Well, my bonus was tied to a combination of metacritic score and sales benchmarks. And now I get nothing. The studio head still walks away with a six figure bonus. The publisher executives get paid 10x my salary regardless. The only person actually feeling any financial punishment are the developers.

So, buy whatever the hell you want. While developers probably appreciate the gesture, you aren't actually fixing any problems - and you might actually be actively hurting the people you are trying to stand up for.

Edit: Another reason talking about this is so damn hard is that even within the same studio, different jobs can have wildly different contracts and experiences. My experiences have been as a full time systems designer. I know other developers - especially artists - under contract rather than full time will not have the same issues with bonuses or even the same experiences with crunch. Sometimes one department will be working 80+ hours a week while another department, with different management, deadlines, etc., will be working 40 hours. One developer claiming bonuses matter while another claims they don't are not actually disagreeing - they just don't have the same work contract details. Just as one developer claiming they're not working crunch doesn't necessarily mean no one in the entire studio is, or vice versa.

It sounds like a fight to survive culture which is insane
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
If you want to avoid crunched games you will have to stick to indie games that you know haven't crunched most likely. It's pretty hard to avoid in anything, and more than just games. Lawyers crunch, civic engineers crunch, no CG movies, or movies with big budgets, students crunch.

www.resetera.com

Want AAA Games? Embrace Crunch, Reject Unions!

David Jaffe take on "AAA Games" and the whole crunch/unions discussion
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,826
You have my arrow.

Also does that mean I have to boycott Japanese games as well? Those are the ones I usually buy but I have no idea what their work culture is like compared to the rest of the Japanese work force.
 

bes.gen

Member
Nov 24, 2017
3,351
dont have a strong enough will power to pass on tlou2.
but definitely not going to act like i am not part of the problem too.
i am aware i am not helping anyone by giving my money, praises to a product that jeopardizes peoples psychical, psychological health.
just helping to make sure there will be crunch for the next big game.
 

Hikari

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,689
Elysium
Doesn't this just make the Naughty Dog devs worse since you are not going to buy their game after they work their arses off? I'm still buying the game to show my support as it is a franchise I really enjoy. Crunch is very bad but I do think this boycott is just going to make it worse.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,112
I rather vote for and campaign for politicians that want to empower workers. While crunch at these studio's is an issue I feel the average employee at these dev houses has a lot more political power and ability to fight for themselves and aren't a paycheck away from being on the streets that my time and efforts would be better served fighting for those less privileged.

I commend OP on his dedication to this but like with most issues the government only has the power to actually make changes to labor laws and their enforcement.
This is the correct approach IMO.

Vote, including at the local / county level.

If you want to avoid crunched games you will have to stick to indie games that you know haven't crunched most likely. It's pretty hard to avoid in anything, and more than just games. Lawyers crunch, civic engineers crunch, no CG movies, or movies with big budgets, students crunch.

www.resetera.com

Want AAA Games? Embrace Crunch, Reject Unions!

David Jaffe take on "AAA Games" and the whole crunch/unions discussion
Fwiw indie game creators work crazy hours as well, main difference is that they are closer to being their own bosses. That said the "indie" games that most people have heard of still have a publisher which may bring additional pressures.
 

Jamaro

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,281
There was a push about 6 or so years ago to unionize part(s) of the game industry. Senior developers from multiple studios brought up these issues with organizations like the IGDA and ESA.

Nothing ever came of it because basically every advocacy organization in the games industry has a board controlled by prominent studio heads and publisher executives or their lackeys. They vehemently don't want unions and have stirred up enough anti-union sentiment among line-working developers to stop any progress towards that goal.

You have no idea how many developers I have had claim they don't want a union because it would prevent them the 'option' of working more hours on their 'passion'.

I don't know the best course of action. I left the industry because it felt so hopeless. You'd scream that you were drowning and another developer would point out you weren't in the deepest part of the ocean yet, so were you really drowning that bad? That's the kind of thing that gets said constantly when you bring up toxic work culture topics in the games industry.

I suppose the only thing people really can do is vote for better workplace protections, better employment laws and give developers the legal tools to fight certain companies on the most egregious abuses.

One of the things a lot of people don't realize is that the legal distinctions that make fighting the industry so hard are the exceptions to most employment laws that the games industry falls into (in the US). Most employment laws have exceptions built in for certain industries that need special leeway based on how they do business. There are different exceptions for different industries. For example, Entertainment has some exceptions. Software Development has other exceptions. Game companies have positioned themselves as Entertainment Software - such that they believe, and will legally argue, they fall under both sets of exceptions to certain employment laws - something which I don't believe was really meant to happen. This gives them incredible leeway to ignore a whole slew of legal guidelines that employees could use to fight abusive employers.
Another great post, thanks for this.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,572
But then the game gets bad sales for whatever reason. Or bad reviews. Well, my bonus was tied to a combination of metacritic score and sales benchmarks. And now I get nothing. The studio head still walks away with a six figure bonus. The publisher executives get paid 10x my salary regardless. The only person actually feeling any financial punishment are the developers.

MC score shouldn't dictate devs payment, they are so easy to screw
 

Fachasaurus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,353
For those saying why don't I protest the working conditions in China: I don't plan to buy a PS5, XSX, or any other device that is not literally required for me to work or live if it has been produced under the conditions mentioned.

So you're saying if it's required for your work or livelihood, you will be purchasing a XSX/PS5.

Of which is being built by damn near actual slave labor.

It just seems a bit off message considering your claims against Naughty Dog and TLOU2 for their attitudes toward crunch. Where devs are crunching whether they like it or not for their own work and livelihood.
 

jsnepo

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,648
This is probably a bad example of voting by your wallet. I mean voting by your wallet should be by quality right?
 
OP
OP
RexNovis

RexNovis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,174
So, ex-AAA dev here with some feedback for those that actually want to change crunch practices.

1) Almost everyone crunches.

Most studios, especially in AAA, have crunch. In fact, out of the four different publishers I have worked for, every single one expected ALL studios under them to crunch to hit milestones/deadlines. And studios oblige because you don't want to lose incentives, bonuses, funding, or support staff. The list of studios who don't crunch - the list of products that are made 'crunch-free' is going to be unbelievably small if you are looking at AAA products. So if you plan to boycott products that are made in toxic work environments - it's going to be the vast majority of games. That's just how the industry is and boycotting isn't going to solve that.

Oh, and side note: People lie. Or exaggerate. Or downplay. I have had other developers in my own studio during crunch claim to not be crunching because we were only working 60-70 hours a week. Because their last studio worked 80+ during crunch. So this isn't crunch. Because we're in some toxic environment Olympics and shit ain't as bad as the worst experience I've ever had so...

Or, my personal favorite, when "We don't have crunch" actually means "We don't have mandatory crunch". Let me tell you about 'voluntary overtime'. It ain't voluntary. There are always punishments for not 'volunteering' to work extra hours during 'not crunch'. Either you start getting bad performance reviews from your bosses because it 'doesn't seem like you are putting in the extra effort'. Or you get left off emails or meetings out of spite. Or you get reassigned to some other part of the project that is less prestigious or more rudimentary, grunt work. Or you just straight up get demoted or fired. And what quickly happens is that you are bullied into either crunching (but 'not crunching') or pushed out of the company.

There are a lot of developers willing to publicly tow the company line that they 'don't crunch' because it's voluntary. Or their work environment isn't toxic because 'we have great benefits'. I have worked for some exceptionally shitty companies and every single one had developers willing to go in front of the media and proclaim just how awesome the studio and work environment were.

2) Boycotting punishes developers more than publishers.

I've seen countless players (and the media) claim to be fighting the industry's business practices - be it loot boxes, microtransactions, crunch, storefront exclusivity, whatever - by either boycotting products or giving poor reviews. And somehow this will show those in control of these products (publishers) that their ways are wrong. It doesn't. The people at the top of most of these companies are... fucking insane. There's probably more appropriate word to describe their behavior but I don't know what it is. There's no introspection going on when something with the game doesn't pan out. Bad reviews don't make studio heads and publishers think "Oh, geez, maybe it was the bullshit monetization we did that tanked the product!"

What happens is - excuses get made that are almost universally laid on the development team. YOU didn't implement our vision properly. YOU didn't work hard enough on these features. YOU didn't do enough crunch. YOU missed this milestone and that's why our game bombed.

Bonuses are withheld, developers are laid off, benefits at the studio are slashed.

This shit don't work.

Oh, by the way, one thing about this I want to highlight: Bonuses in the game industry.

Base salary
at a lot of game studios is actually pretty low. I know every time the Game Developer Salary survey (or something similar) comes out and people look and see "OMG, devs make $90k a year!". Yeah, most of those are reporting ALL income - including bonuses. Bonuses are a HUGE portion of overall income for some developers. I have seen developers earn anywhere from 10%-100% of their yearly salary in a launch bonus. So, sure, I may have made $120k this year, but half of that was from the launch bonus.

But then the game gets bad sales for whatever reason. Or bad reviews. Well, my bonus was tied to a combination of metacritic score and sales benchmarks. And now I get nothing. The studio head still walks away with a six figure bonus. The publisher executives get paid 10x my salary regardless. The only person actually feeling any financial punishment are the developers.

So, buy whatever the hell you want. While developers probably appreciate the gesture, you aren't actually fixing any problems - and you might actually be actively hurting the people you are trying to stand up for.

Edit: Another reason talking about this is so damn hard is that even within the same studio, different jobs can have wildly different contracts and experiences. My experiences have been as a full time systems designer. I know other developers - especially artists - under contract rather than full time will not have the same issues with bonuses or even the same experiences with crunch. Sometimes one department will be working 80+ hours a week while another department, with different management, deadlines, etc., will be working 40 hours. One developer claiming bonuses matter while another claims they don't are not actually disagreeing - they just don't have the same work contract details. Just as one developer claiming they're not working crunch doesn't necessarily mean no one in the entire studio is, or vice versa.

thank you for taking the time to reply. If, as you say, boycotts don't work what then is there for us to do aside from not spending our money to support these practices?

I am well aware that this stance will limit the games I can purchase and support DRAMATICALLY and I realize the vast majority would not or could not be asked to do the same but I just can't do it anymore. Playing these games and knowing what practices led to their creation makes me feel like a horrible person and I just can't stand it anymore.
 

Niks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,299
Situation REALLY, UNEQUIVOCALLY sucks, but boycotting isn't going to fix shit...
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,358
Edit: Another reason talking about this is so damn hard is that even within the same studio, different jobs can have wildly different contracts and experiences. My experiences have been as a full time systems designer. I know other developers - especially artists - under contract rather than full time will not have the same issues with bonuses or even the same experiences with crunch. Sometimes one department will be working 80+ hours a week while another department, with different management, deadlines, etc., will be working 40 hours. One developer claiming bonuses matter while another claims they don't are not actually disagreeing - they just don't have the same work contract details. Just as one developer claiming they're not working crunch doesn't necessarily mean no one in the entire studio is, or vice versa.

It's worth mentioning that the other thread stated that ND was relying heavily on temporary, contract employees, many of whom are new to the game industry. Not only are these positions not going to be getting any sort of bonus based on the game's performance, they're most likely going to be eliminated soon after the game ships.
 

Lady Gaia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,479
Seattle
The developers already got paid line seems like bullshit. We've heard a lot about how dev bonuses are tied to metacritic scores and sales.

It seems like bullshit because it is. Many of the people who are working on the game aren't doing it strictly for a paycheck, but because they wanted to be part of creating something amazing. I've worked on any number of projects where I put in evenings and weekends, not because I was asked to or expected to, but because I was immersed in solving interesting problems and knew I could deliver something special if I focused on it. Refusing to experience what they built specifically so that people could enjoy it out of a misguided form of solidarity robs them of their moment of glory and sense of a job well done that they worked so hard for.

Do we complain about the crunch time athletes put into training for the Olympics? Or musicians who practice day and night to hone their craft? Some people spend every waking moment focused on being great at something because it feeds a sense of self-worth and satisfaction.

Not that I'm arguing crunch culture is inherently good. Something special turns foul when you're putting in those kinds of hours because someone demands it of you rather than demanding it of yourself, or creates a climate where you feel obligated to do so. I don't pretend to have a solution, but I won't join in a call for pervasive mediocrity be asking passionate individuals to stop working at a particular time every day.