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Peek-a-boo!

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,196
Woodbridge
I'm also considering creating a thread specifically as a resource to identify publishers and studios with their use of crunch. I might not be able to get to it today but if there's enough support for the idea I'll try and get it up sometime this weekend.

This would be the single best outcome of this clearly split thread.

For me, 'The Last of Us' is arguably one of the best games of last generation, and is a landmark title in this industry, whether folks like it or not so, boycotting the sequel is admittedly tough...

Trouble is, look at what happened with Red Dead Redemption 2; the numerous crunch stories were openly available to read on the very front page of the likes of the BBC and The Guardian, and look at how many copies that game went on to sell.

'The Last of Us Part II' is in all likelihood going to be the biggest selling exclusive game this year however, I still believe it is very much worth talking about the present crunch culture that's happening at Naughty Dog.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Not literally obviously, but try to imagine with everything that's been going on lately, with jobs and private lives on the line, try to imagine how a simple game can make one at least a bit happier. And TLOU is my favorite game of all time.

Don't feel bad for getting and playing TLOU2. That's not really the takeaway from this thread. You do you!

The world would be a better place if people realized saying "I'm doing this, who wants to join me?" is not "fuck you if you don't". AKA why vegans get so much hostility from meat eaters.
 

Jamaro

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,281
So, ex-AAA dev here with some feedback for those that actually want to change crunch practices.

*Snip*

Very enlightening, thanks for sharing this. I never know what to do with these situations. I'd like to make sure I don't support the crappy circumstances but don't know if boycotting a purchase actually helps anything. Unfortunately it looks like even if we are making an impact on the bottom line the blame ultimately gets passed down to the people we were sympathizing with.
 

Deleted member 10193

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,127
But you're buying Cyberpunk 2077 from what i've seen, alright mate.
When it comes to CDProjekt Red and Cyberpunk 2077

Not to single you out but this is one of the things i dislike about these boycotting threads. The lack of consistency amongst participants.
Cyberpunk 2077 developers will be required to crunch following its delay

Cyberpunk 2077 still needs crunch time to complete, CEO says
If people were hospitalised because of crunch then I won't buy Cyberpunk either...
 

Mantrox

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,911
So, ex-AAA dev here with some feedback for those that actually want to change crunch practices.

1) Almost everyone crunches.

Most studios, especially in AAA, have crunch. In fact, out of the four different publishers I have worked for, every single one expected ALL studios under them to crunch to hit milestones/deadlines. And studios oblige because you don't want to lose incentives, bonuses, funding, or support staff. The list of studios who don't crunch - the list of products that are made 'crunch-free' is going to be unbelievably small if you are looking at AAA products. So if you plan to boycott products that are made in toxic work environments - it's going to be the vast majority of games. That's just how the industry is and boycotting isn't going to solve that.

Oh, and side note: People lie. Or exaggerate. Or downplay. I have had other developers in my own studio during crunch claim to not be crunching because we were only working 60-70 hours a week. Because their last studio worked 80+ during crunch. So this isn't crunch. Because we're in some toxic environment Olympics and shit ain't as bad as the worst experience I've ever had so...

Or, my personal favorite, when "We don't have crunch" actually means "We don't have mandatory crunch". Let me tell you about 'voluntary overtime'. It ain't voluntary. There are always punishments for not 'volunteering' to work extra hours during 'not crunch'. Either you start getting bad performance reviews from your bosses because it 'doesn't seem like you are putting in the extra effort'. Or you get left off emails or meetings out of spite. Or you get reassigned to some other part of the project that is less prestigious or more rudimentary, grunt work. Or you just straight up get demoted or fired. And what quickly happens is that you are bullied into either crunching (but 'not crunching') or pushed out of the company.

There are a lot of developers willing to publicly tow the company line that they 'don't crunch' because it's voluntary. Or their work environment isn't toxic because 'we have great benefits'. I have worked for some exceptionally shitty companies and every single one had developers willing to go in front of the media and proclaim just how awesome the studio and work environment were.

2) Boycotting punishes developers more than publishers.

I've seen countless players (and the media) claim to be fighting the industry's business practices - be it loot boxes, microtransactions, crunch, storefront exclusivity, whatever - by either boycotting products or giving poor reviews. And somehow this will show those in control of these products (publishers) that their ways are wrong. It doesn't. The people at the top of most of these companies are... fucking insane. There's probably more appropriate word to describe their behavior but I don't know what it is. There's no introspection going on when something with the game doesn't pan out. Bad reviews don't make studio heads and publishers think "Oh, geez, maybe it was the bullshit monetization we did that tanked the product!"

What happens is - excuses get made that are almost universally laid on the development team. YOU didn't implement our vision properly. YOU didn't work hard enough on these features. YOU didn't do enough crunch. YOU missed this milestone and that's why our game bombed.

Bonuses are withheld, developers are laid off, benefits at the studio are slashed.

This shit don't work.

Oh, by the way, one thing about this I want to highlight: Bonuses in the game industry.

Base salary
at a lot of game studios is actually pretty low. I know every time the Game Developer Salary survey (or something similar) comes out and people look and see "OMG, devs make $90k a year!". Yeah, most of those are reporting ALL income - including bonuses. Bonuses are a HUGE portion of overall income for some developers. I have seen developers earn anywhere from 10%-100% of their yearly salary in a launch bonus. So, sure, I may have made $120k this year, but half of that was from the launch bonus.

But then the game gets bad sales for whatever reason. Or bad reviews. Well, my bonus was tied to a combination of metacritic score and sales benchmarks. And now I get nothing. The studio head still walks away with a six figure bonus. The publisher executives get paid 10x my salary regardless. The only person actually feeling any financial punishment are the developers.

So, buy whatever the hell you want. While developers probably appreciate the gesture, you aren't actually fixing any problems - and you might actually be actively hurting the people you are trying to stand up for.
Thank you for the insight.

Have you, or anybody you know in the industry made a serious effort when it comes to forming a union?
Has there been any backlash from elements within the company about said effort?

What do you see as being the best course of action to attack this aspect of the working culture?
 

Deleted member 24021

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
4,772
Oh boy. Just when I thought it couldn't get any more embarrassingly disingenuous. :D

Yeah, sorry but no amount of deflecting or tone policing distracts from the fact you still haven't answered why it's warranted for you to assume lack of interest from lack of posting, but it's wrong for others to do the same to you:

Who pissed in your cereal this morning? Calm down my guy, it's not that big of a deal lol
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,189
UK
Uhm.. You're joking right?

No, I haven't. I have my family, I currently work online, everyone's still healthy and this one measly materialistic upcoming thing helps as well.
Ok so now it's a "measly materialistic upcoming thing" but in your original post it was "Why would I boycott the only thing that's keeping me alive these days?", so I hope you can see where my concern came from. Either way, counselling can help everyone as we have so much going in our lives and having the ear of an independent and unconditionally positive person is beneficial.
 

Yasuke

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,817
Yeeeeeah, it's gonna be a no from me, dawg.

I don't think we should have to boycott these games to get the industry to change, especially seeing as how devs often claim they'd rather games made via crunch sell well so they can get some sort of restitution for their labor. I understand the impulse though.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
You're being obnoxiously condescending here...

I think they're being genuine. It is quite dangerous (if, unfortunately, also relatable) when people put a large share of their own happiness on things that ultimately can't support that weight. Believe me, I've been there... often. :(

The problem is that advice from an internet stranger to seek psychological help is rarely if ever going to have any kind of effect other than, as you say, sounding like a condescending attack, which is why I myself refrain from doing it.

Who pissed in your cereal this morning? Calm down my guy, it's not that big of a deal lol

"Tone policing is not helping your argument".
"In that case, here's some more tone policing".

Internet discussion in a nutshell. :D

(no, it didn't work this time either. Still waiting for your answer).
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,969
I think they're being genuine. It is quite dangerous (if, unfortunately, also relatable) when people put a large share of their own happiness on things that ultimately can't support that weight. Believe me, I've been there... often. :(

The problem is that advice from an internet stranger to seek psychological help is rarely if ever going to have any kind of effect other than, as you say, sounding like a condescending attack, which is why I myself refrain from doing it.
It was genuinely obnoxiously condescending. Sorry weltall, but that wasn't cool.
 

Deleted member 49535

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 10, 2018
2,825
Klei Entertainment (makers of Don't Starve and Oxygen not Included, among others) is a studio without crunch and good working conditions from what I've heard. Part of the reason I became a fan of them.
 

Swift_Gamer

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
3,701
Rio de Janeiro
So, ex-AAA dev here with some feedback for those that actually want to change crunch practices.

1) Almost everyone crunches.

Most studios, especially in AAA, have crunch. In fact, out of the four different publishers I have worked for, every single one expected ALL studios under them to crunch to hit milestones/deadlines. And studios oblige because you don't want to lose incentives, bonuses, funding, or support staff. The list of studios who don't crunch - the list of products that are made 'crunch-free' is going to be unbelievably small if you are looking at AAA products. So if you plan to boycott products that are made in toxic work environments - it's going to be the vast majority of games. That's just how the industry is and boycotting isn't going to solve that.

Oh, and side note: People lie. Or exaggerate. Or downplay. I have had other developers in my own studio during crunch claim to not be crunching because we were only working 60-70 hours a week. Because their last studio worked 80+ during crunch. So this isn't crunch. Because we're in some toxic environment Olympics and shit ain't as bad as the worst experience I've ever had so...

Or, my personal favorite, when "We don't have crunch" actually means "We don't have mandatory crunch". Let me tell you about 'voluntary overtime'. It ain't voluntary. There are always punishments for not 'volunteering' to work extra hours during 'not crunch'. Either you start getting bad performance reviews from your bosses because it 'doesn't seem like you are putting in the extra effort'. Or you get left off emails or meetings out of spite. Or you get reassigned to some other part of the project that is less prestigious or more rudimentary, grunt work. Or you just straight up get demoted or fired. And what quickly happens is that you are bullied into either crunching (but 'not crunching') or pushed out of the company.

There are a lot of developers willing to publicly tow the company line that they 'don't crunch' because it's voluntary. Or their work environment isn't toxic because 'we have great benefits'. I have worked for some exceptionally shitty companies and every single one had developers willing to go in front of the media and proclaim just how awesome the studio and work environment were.

2) Boycotting punishes developers more than publishers.

I've seen countless players (and the media) claim to be fighting the industry's business practices - be it loot boxes, microtransactions, crunch, storefront exclusivity, whatever - by either boycotting products or giving poor reviews. And somehow this will show those in control of these products (publishers) that their ways are wrong. It doesn't. The people at the top of most of these companies are... fucking insane. There's probably more appropriate word to describe their behavior but I don't know what it is. There's no introspection going on when something with the game doesn't pan out. Bad reviews don't make studio heads and publishers think "Oh, geez, maybe it was the bullshit monetization we did that tanked the product!"

What happens is - excuses get made that are almost universally laid on the development team. YOU didn't implement our vision properly. YOU didn't work hard enough on these features. YOU didn't do enough crunch. YOU missed this milestone and that's why our game bombed.

Bonuses are withheld, developers are laid off, benefits at the studio are slashed.

This shit don't work.

Oh, by the way, one thing about this I want to highlight: Bonuses in the game industry.

Base salary
at a lot of game studios is actually pretty low. I know every time the Game Developer Salary survey (or something similar) comes out and people look and see "OMG, devs make $90k a year!". Yeah, most of those are reporting ALL income - including bonuses. Bonuses are a HUGE portion of overall income for some developers. I have seen developers earn anywhere from 10%-100% of their yearly salary in a launch bonus. So, sure, I may have made $120k this year, but half of that was from the launch bonus.

But then the game gets bad sales for whatever reason. Or bad reviews. Well, my bonus was tied to a combination of metacritic score and sales benchmarks. And now I get nothing. The studio head still walks away with a six figure bonus. The publisher executives get paid 10x my salary regardless. The only person actually feeling any financial punishment are the developers.

So, buy whatever the hell you want. While developers probably appreciate the gesture, you aren't actually fixing any problems - and you might actually be actively hurting the people you are trying to stand up for.

Edit: Another reason talking about this is so damn hard is that even within the same studio, different jobs can have wildly different contracts and experiences. My experiences have been as a full time systems designer. I know other developers - especially artists - under contract rather than full time will not have the same issues with bonuses or even the same experiences with crunch. Sometimes one department will be working 80+ hours a week while another department, with different management, deadlines, etc., will be working 40 hours. One developer claiming bonuses matter while another claims they don't are not actually disagreeing - they just don't have the same work contract details. Just as one developer claiming they're not working crunch doesn't necessarily mean no one in the entire studio is, or vice versa.
Well, that's it.
 

m4st4

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,505
Ok so now it's a "measly materialistic upcoming thing" but in your original post it was "Why would I boycott the only thing that's keeping me alive these days?", so I hope you can see where my concern came from. Either way, counselling can help everyone as we have so much going in our lives and having the ear of an independent and unconditionally positive person is beneficial.

I'm surrounded by loving and caring people but art can save lives too.

I was using hyperbole to show how important art is, especially nowadays.

If OP and Co. want to give their money to some other game company, it's their right.
 

Kamaros

Member
Aug 29, 2018
2,315
So, ex-AAA dev here with some feedback for those that actually want to change crunch practices.

1) Almost everyone crunches.

Most studios, especially in AAA, have crunch. In fact, out of the four different publishers I have worked for, every single one expected ALL studios under them to crunch to hit milestones/deadlines. And studios oblige because you don't want to lose incentives, bonuses, funding, or support staff. The list of studios who don't crunch - the list of products that are made 'crunch-free' is going to be unbelievably small if you are looking at AAA products. So if you plan to boycott products that are made in toxic work environments - it's going to be the vast majority of games. That's just how the industry is and boycotting isn't going to solve that.

Oh, and side note: People lie. Or exaggerate. Or downplay. I have had other developers in my own studio during crunch claim to not be crunching because we were only working 60-70 hours a week. Because their last studio worked 80+ during crunch. So this isn't crunch. Because we're in some toxic environment Olympics and shit ain't as bad as the worst experience I've ever had so...

Or, my personal favorite, when "We don't have crunch" actually means "We don't have mandatory crunch". Let me tell you about 'voluntary overtime'. It ain't voluntary. There are always punishments for not 'volunteering' to work extra hours during 'not crunch'. Either you start getting bad performance reviews from your bosses because it 'doesn't seem like you are putting in the extra effort'. Or you get left off emails or meetings out of spite. Or you get reassigned to some other part of the project that is less prestigious or more rudimentary, grunt work. Or you just straight up get demoted or fired. And what quickly happens is that you are bullied into either crunching (but 'not crunching') or pushed out of the company.

There are a lot of developers willing to publicly tow the company line that they 'don't crunch' because it's voluntary. Or their work environment isn't toxic because 'we have great benefits'. I have worked for some exceptionally shitty companies and every single one had developers willing to go in front of the media and proclaim just how awesome the studio and work environment were.

2) Boycotting punishes developers more than publishers.

I've seen countless players (and the media) claim to be fighting the industry's business practices - be it loot boxes, microtransactions, crunch, storefront exclusivity, whatever - by either boycotting products or giving poor reviews. And somehow this will show those in control of these products (publishers) that their ways are wrong. It doesn't. The people at the top of most of these companies are... fucking insane. There's probably more appropriate word to describe their behavior but I don't know what it is. There's no introspection going on when something with the game doesn't pan out. Bad reviews don't make studio heads and publishers think "Oh, geez, maybe it was the bullshit monetization we did that tanked the product!"

What happens is - excuses get made that are almost universally laid on the development team. YOU didn't implement our vision properly. YOU didn't work hard enough on these features. YOU didn't do enough crunch. YOU missed this milestone and that's why our game bombed.

Bonuses are withheld, developers are laid off, benefits at the studio are slashed.

This shit don't work.

Oh, by the way, one thing about this I want to highlight: Bonuses in the game industry.

Base salary
at a lot of game studios is actually pretty low. I know every time the Game Developer Salary survey (or something similar) comes out and people look and see "OMG, devs make $90k a year!". Yeah, most of those are reporting ALL income - including bonuses. Bonuses are a HUGE portion of overall income for some developers. I have seen developers earn anywhere from 10%-100% of their yearly salary in a launch bonus. So, sure, I may have made $120k this year, but half of that was from the launch bonus.

But then the game gets bad sales for whatever reason. Or bad reviews. Well, my bonus was tied to a combination of metacritic score and sales benchmarks. And now I get nothing. The studio head still walks away with a six figure bonus. The publisher executives get paid 10x my salary regardless. The only person actually feeling any financial punishment are the developers.

So, buy whatever the hell you want. While developers probably appreciate the gesture, you aren't actually fixing any problems - and you might actually be actively hurting the people you are trying to stand up for.

Edit: Another reason talking about this is so damn hard is that even within the same studio, different jobs can have wildly different contracts and experiences. My experiences have been as a full time systems designer. I know other developers - especially artists - under contract rather than full time will not have the same issues with bonuses or even the same experiences with crunch. Sometimes one department will be working 80+ hours a week while another department, with different management, deadlines, etc., will be working 40 hours. One developer claiming bonuses matter while another claims they don't are not actually disagreeing - they just don't have the same work contract details. Just as one developer claiming they're not working crunch doesn't necessarily mean no one in the entire studio is, or vice versa.

this is just heartbreaking, and to think it was my dream job... well i'm staying in my field, i guess.

the way they just keep emotionally manipulating the devs must be a nightmare.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid

Salty Rice

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,612
Pancake City
Personally with these kind of situations actually gonna buy for the developers who crunched their asses off.

Like they had to suffer so much and then people should at least see the hard work they put in.

The game failing wouldnt change anything on such a working culture of a studio anyway.

Unionize folks. Vote Bernie. Thats how you could actually help.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
It was genuinely obnoxiously condescending. Sorry weltall, but that wasn't cool.

I cannot pressume to know what messofanego's intentions were, but the wording at least seemed genuine, and I personally also felt a bit disturbed by the "this game is the only reason I have to live" posts, too (again, I just refrained from replying because I know it never helps). Granted, that may color my interpretation of his post, but I want to think most people here would not intentionally attack people in that situation.
 

ScatheZombie

Member
Oct 26, 2017
398
Thank you for the insight.

Have you, or anybody you know in the industry made a serious effort when it comes to forming a union?
Has there been any backlash from elements within the company about said effort?

What do you see as being the best course of action to attack this aspect of the working culture?

There was a push about 6 or so years ago to unionize part(s) of the game industry. Senior developers from multiple studios brought up these issues with organizations like the IGDA and ESA.

Nothing ever came of it because basically every advocacy organization in the games industry has a board controlled by prominent studio heads and publisher executives or their lackeys. They vehemently don't want unions and have stirred up enough anti-union sentiment among line-working developers to stop any progress towards that goal.

You have no idea how many developers I have had claim they don't want a union because it would prevent them the 'option' of working more hours on their 'passion'.

I don't know the best course of action. I left the industry because it felt so hopeless. You'd scream that you were drowning and another developer would point out you weren't in the deepest part of the ocean yet, so were you really drowning that bad? That's the kind of thing that gets said constantly when you bring up toxic work culture topics in the games industry.

I suppose the only thing people really can do is vote for better workplace protections, better employment laws and give developers the legal tools to fight certain companies on the most egregious abuses.

One of the things a lot of people don't realize is that the legal distinctions that make fighting the industry so hard are the exceptions to most employment laws that the games industry falls into (in the US). Most employment laws have exceptions built in for certain industries that need special leeway based on how they do business. There are different exceptions for different industries. For example, Entertainment has some exceptions. Software Development has other exceptions. Game companies have positioned themselves as Entertainment Software - such that they believe, and will legally argue, they fall under both sets of exceptions to certain employment laws - something which I don't believe was really meant to happen. This gives them incredible leeway to ignore a whole slew of legal guidelines that employees could use to fight abusive employers.
 

John Wick

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
440
United Kingdom
User Banned (1 Month): Ignoring the staff post, a history a downplaying severe working conditions
So you don't care that people have been hospitalised just as long as you get the game?

I thought Naughty Dog was one of the good ones, I guess not. I wont be buying The Last of Us Part 2.
OMG! The shock and horror? Some of my friends work off shore on rigs etc. Their jobs are hard graft and 12 hours minimum. The pay is fantastic and so are the benefits. The people at ND are getting paid proper wages and benefits. What about workers (including child labour) in 3rd world countries? You'll happily by clothes and items without a second thought. Where's the concern?
So are you gonna stop buying the majority of items made in China and other countries where people are getting paid peanuts and working 12 hour shifts or more?
 

Deleted member 10193

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,127
OMG! The shock and horror? Some of my friends work off shore on rigs etc. Their jobs are hard graft and 12 hours minimum. The pay is fantastic and so are the benefits. The people at ND are getting paid proper wages and benefits. What about workers (including child labour) in 3rd world countries? You'll happily by clothes and items without a second thought. Where's the concern?
So are you gonna stop buying the majority of items made in China and other countries where people are getting paid peanuts and working 12 hour shifts or more?
I rarely buy clothes let alone fashion brands that are made in sweatshops but ok.
 

Deleted member 49535

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 10, 2018
2,825
So, ex-AAA dev here with some feedback for those that actually want to change crunch practices.

1) Almost everyone crunches.

Most studios, especially in AAA, have crunch. In fact, out of the four different publishers I have worked for, every single one expected ALL studios under them to crunch to hit milestones/deadlines. And studios oblige because you don't want to lose incentives, bonuses, funding, or support staff. The list of studios who don't crunch - the list of products that are made 'crunch-free' is going to be unbelievably small if you are looking at AAA products. So if you plan to boycott products that are made in toxic work environments - it's going to be the vast majority of games. That's just how the industry is and boycotting isn't going to solve that.

Oh, and side note: People lie. Or exaggerate. Or downplay. I have had other developers in my own studio during crunch claim to not be crunching because we were only working 60-70 hours a week. Because their last studio worked 80+ during crunch. So this isn't crunch. Because we're in some toxic environment Olympics and shit ain't as bad as the worst experience I've ever had so...

Or, my personal favorite, when "We don't have crunch" actually means "We don't have mandatory crunch". Let me tell you about 'voluntary overtime'. It ain't voluntary. There are always punishments for not 'volunteering' to work extra hours during 'not crunch'. Either you start getting bad performance reviews from your bosses because it 'doesn't seem like you are putting in the extra effort'. Or you get left off emails or meetings out of spite. Or you get reassigned to some other part of the project that is less prestigious or more rudimentary, grunt work. Or you just straight up get demoted or fired. And what quickly happens is that you are bullied into either crunching (but 'not crunching') or pushed out of the company.

There are a lot of developers willing to publicly tow the company line that they 'don't crunch' because it's voluntary. Or their work environment isn't toxic because 'we have great benefits'. I have worked for some exceptionally shitty companies and every single one had developers willing to go in front of the media and proclaim just how awesome the studio and work environment were.

2) Boycotting punishes developers more than publishers.

I've seen countless players (and the media) claim to be fighting the industry's business practices - be it loot boxes, microtransactions, crunch, storefront exclusivity, whatever - by either boycotting products or giving poor reviews. And somehow this will show those in control of these products (publishers) that their ways are wrong. It doesn't. The people at the top of most of these companies are... fucking insane. There's probably more appropriate word to describe their behavior but I don't know what it is. There's no introspection going on when something with the game doesn't pan out. Bad reviews don't make studio heads and publishers think "Oh, geez, maybe it was the bullshit monetization we did that tanked the product!"

What happens is - excuses get made that are almost universally laid on the development team. YOU didn't implement our vision properly. YOU didn't work hard enough on these features. YOU didn't do enough crunch. YOU missed this milestone and that's why our game bombed.

Bonuses are withheld, developers are laid off, benefits at the studio are slashed.

This shit don't work.

Oh, by the way, one thing about this I want to highlight: Bonuses in the game industry.

Base salary
at a lot of game studios is actually pretty low. I know every time the Game Developer Salary survey (or something similar) comes out and people look and see "OMG, devs make $90k a year!". Yeah, most of those are reporting ALL income - including bonuses. Bonuses are a HUGE portion of overall income for some developers. I have seen developers earn anywhere from 10%-100% of their yearly salary in a launch bonus. So, sure, I may have made $120k this year, but half of that was from the launch bonus.

But then the game gets bad sales for whatever reason. Or bad reviews. Well, my bonus was tied to a combination of metacritic score and sales benchmarks. And now I get nothing. The studio head still walks away with a six figure bonus. The publisher executives get paid 10x my salary regardless. The only person actually feeling any financial punishment are the developers.

So, buy whatever the hell you want. While developers probably appreciate the gesture, you aren't actually fixing any problems - and you might actually be actively hurting the people you are trying to stand up for.

Edit: Another reason talking about this is so damn hard is that even within the same studio, different jobs can have wildly different contracts and experiences. My experiences have been as a full time systems designer. I know other developers - especially artists - under contract rather than full time will not have the same issues with bonuses or even the same experiences with crunch. Sometimes one department will be working 80+ hours a week while another department, with different management, deadlines, etc., will be working 40 hours. One developer claiming bonuses matter while another claims they don't are not actually disagreeing - they just don't have the same work contract details. Just as one developer claiming they're not working crunch doesn't necessarily mean no one in the entire studio is, or vice versa.
Thanks for sharing this. And pretty much confirms what I've always thought. If devs are willing to crunch, there's nothing you can do. They should be the ones fighting for their own working conditions.

This post makes me want to support smaller developers even more than I already do tbh.
 

Equanimity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,992
London
So, ex-AAA dev here with some feedback for those that actually want to change crunch practices.

1) Almost everyone crunches.

Most studios, especially in AAA, have crunch. In fact, out of the four different publishers I have worked for, every single one expected ALL studios under them to crunch to hit milestones/deadlines. And studios oblige because you don't want to lose incentives, bonuses, funding, or support staff. The list of studios who don't crunch - the list of products that are made 'crunch-free' is going to be unbelievably small if you are looking at AAA products. So if you plan to boycott products that are made in toxic work environments - it's going to be the vast majority of games. That's just how the industry is and boycotting isn't going to solve that.

Oh, and side note: People lie. Or exaggerate. Or downplay. I have had other developers in my own studio during crunch claim to not be crunching because we were only working 60-70 hours a week. Because their last studio worked 80+ during crunch. So this isn't crunch. Because we're in some toxic environment Olympics and shit ain't as bad as the worst experience I've ever had so...

Or, my personal favorite, when "We don't have crunch" actually means "We don't have mandatory crunch". Let me tell you about 'voluntary overtime'. It ain't voluntary. There are always punishments for not 'volunteering' to work extra hours during 'not crunch'. Either you start getting bad performance reviews from your bosses because it 'doesn't seem like you are putting in the extra effort'. Or you get left off emails or meetings out of spite. Or you get reassigned to some other part of the project that is less prestigious or more rudimentary, grunt work. Or you just straight up get demoted or fired. And what quickly happens is that you are bullied into either crunching (but 'not crunching') or pushed out of the company.

There are a lot of developers willing to publicly tow the company line that they 'don't crunch' because it's voluntary. Or their work environment isn't toxic because 'we have great benefits'. I have worked for some exceptionally shitty companies and every single one had developers willing to go in front of the media and proclaim just how awesome the studio and work environment were.

2) Boycotting punishes developers more than publishers.

I've seen countless players (and the media) claim to be fighting the industry's business practices - be it loot boxes, microtransactions, crunch, storefront exclusivity, whatever - by either boycotting products or giving poor reviews. And somehow this will show those in control of these products (publishers) that their ways are wrong. It doesn't. The people at the top of most of these companies are... fucking insane. There's probably more appropriate word to describe their behavior but I don't know what it is. There's no introspection going on when something with the game doesn't pan out. Bad reviews don't make studio heads and publishers think "Oh, geez, maybe it was the bullshit monetization we did that tanked the product!"

What happens is - excuses get made that are almost universally laid on the development team. YOU didn't implement our vision properly. YOU didn't work hard enough on these features. YOU didn't do enough crunch. YOU missed this milestone and that's why our game bombed.

Bonuses are withheld, developers are laid off, benefits at the studio are slashed.

This shit don't work.

Oh, by the way, one thing about this I want to highlight: Bonuses in the game industry.

Base salary
at a lot of game studios is actually pretty low. I know every time the Game Developer Salary survey (or something similar) comes out and people look and see "OMG, devs make $90k a year!". Yeah, most of those are reporting ALL income - including bonuses. Bonuses are a HUGE portion of overall income for some developers. I have seen developers earn anywhere from 10%-100% of their yearly salary in a launch bonus. So, sure, I may have made $120k this year, but half of that was from the launch bonus.

But then the game gets bad sales for whatever reason. Or bad reviews. Well, my bonus was tied to a combination of metacritic score and sales benchmarks. And now I get nothing. The studio head still walks away with a six figure bonus. The publisher executives get paid 10x my salary regardless. The only person actually feeling any financial punishment are the developers.

So, buy whatever the hell you want. While developers probably appreciate the gesture, you aren't actually fixing any problems - and you might actually be actively hurting the people you are trying to stand up for.

Edit: Another reason talking about this is so damn hard is that even within the same studio, different jobs can have wildly different contracts and experiences. My experiences have been as a full time systems designer. I know other developers - especially artists - under contract rather than full time will not have the same issues with bonuses or even the same experiences with crunch. Sometimes one department will be working 80+ hours a week while another department, with different management, deadlines, etc., will be working 40 hours. One developer claiming bonuses matter while another claims they don't are not actually disagreeing - they just don't have the same work contract details. Just as one developer claiming they're not working crunch doesn't necessarily mean no one in the entire studio is, or vice versa.

Thanks for the insight.
 

Oticon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,446
So, ex-AAA dev here with some feedback for those that actually want to change crunch practices.

1) Almost everyone crunches.

Most studios, especially in AAA, have crunch. In fact, out of the four different publishers I have worked for, every single one expected ALL studios under them to crunch to hit milestones/deadlines. And studios oblige because you don't want to lose incentives, bonuses, funding, or support staff. The list of studios who don't crunch - the list of products that are made 'crunch-free' is going to be unbelievably small if you are looking at AAA products. So if you plan to boycott products that are made in toxic work environments - it's going to be the vast majority of games. That's just how the industry is and boycotting isn't going to solve that.

Oh, and side note: People lie. Or exaggerate. Or downplay. I have had other developers in my own studio during crunch claim to not be crunching because we were only working 60-70 hours a week. Because their last studio worked 80+ during crunch. So this isn't crunch. Because we're in some toxic environment Olympics and shit ain't as bad as the worst experience I've ever had so...

Or, my personal favorite, when "We don't have crunch" actually means "We don't have mandatory crunch". Let me tell you about 'voluntary overtime'. It ain't voluntary. There are always punishments for not 'volunteering' to work extra hours during 'not crunch'. Either you start getting bad performance reviews from your bosses because it 'doesn't seem like you are putting in the extra effort'. Or you get left off emails or meetings out of spite. Or you get reassigned to some other part of the project that is less prestigious or more rudimentary, grunt work. Or you just straight up get demoted or fired. And what quickly happens is that you are bullied into either crunching (but 'not crunching') or pushed out of the company.

There are a lot of developers willing to publicly tow the company line that they 'don't crunch' because it's voluntary. Or their work environment isn't toxic because 'we have great benefits'. I have worked for some exceptionally shitty companies and every single one had developers willing to go in front of the media and proclaim just how awesome the studio and work environment were.

2) Boycotting punishes developers more than publishers.

I've seen countless players (and the media) claim to be fighting the industry's business practices - be it loot boxes, microtransactions, crunch, storefront exclusivity, whatever - by either boycotting products or giving poor reviews. And somehow this will show those in control of these products (publishers) that their ways are wrong. It doesn't. The people at the top of most of these companies are... fucking insane. There's probably more appropriate word to describe their behavior but I don't know what it is. There's no introspection going on when something with the game doesn't pan out. Bad reviews don't make studio heads and publishers think "Oh, geez, maybe it was the bullshit monetization we did that tanked the product!"

What happens is - excuses get made that are almost universally laid on the development team. YOU didn't implement our vision properly. YOU didn't work hard enough on these features. YOU didn't do enough crunch. YOU missed this milestone and that's why our game bombed.

Bonuses are withheld, developers are laid off, benefits at the studio are slashed.

This shit don't work.

Oh, by the way, one thing about this I want to highlight: Bonuses in the game industry.

Base salary
at a lot of game studios is actually pretty low. I know every time the Game Developer Salary survey (or something similar) comes out and people look and see "OMG, devs make $90k a year!". Yeah, most of those are reporting ALL income - including bonuses. Bonuses are a HUGE portion of overall income for some developers. I have seen developers earn anywhere from 10%-100% of their yearly salary in a launch bonus. So, sure, I may have made $120k this year, but half of that was from the launch bonus.

But then the game gets bad sales for whatever reason. Or bad reviews. Well, my bonus was tied to a combination of metacritic score and sales benchmarks. And now I get nothing. The studio head still walks away with a six figure bonus. The publisher executives get paid 10x my salary regardless. The only person actually feeling any financial punishment are the developers.

So, buy whatever the hell you want. While developers probably appreciate the gesture, you aren't actually fixing any problems - and you might actually be actively hurting the people you are trying to stand up for.

Edit: Another reason talking about this is so damn hard is that even within the same studio, different jobs can have wildly different contracts and experiences. My experiences have been as a full time systems designer. I know other developers - especially artists - under contract rather than full time will not have the same issues with bonuses or even the same experiences with crunch. Sometimes one department will be working 80+ hours a week while another department, with different management, deadlines, etc., will be working 40 hours. One developer claiming bonuses matter while another claims they don't are not actually disagreeing - they just don't have the same work contract details. Just as one developer claiming they're not working crunch doesn't necessarily mean no one in the entire studio is, or vice versa.
Thanks for sharing your experience. So what can we as consumers do? It seems like not buying the game hurts developers but buying the game would just continue the status quo.
 

julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,285
Not even boycotting, i just don't want to buy games built under these conditions at all. It's just not something i want to participate in. There's a lot of other stuff to play.
 

Thiago

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,671
So, ex-AAA dev here with some feedback for those that actually want to change crunch practices.

1) Almost everyone crunches.

Most studios, especially in AAA, have crunch. In fact, out of the four different publishers I have worked for, every single one expected ALL studios under them to crunch to hit milestones/deadlines. And studios oblige because you don't want to lose incentives, bonuses, funding, or support staff. The list of studios who don't crunch - the list of products that are made 'crunch-free' is going to be unbelievably small if you are looking at AAA products. So if you plan to boycott products that are made in toxic work environments - it's going to be the vast majority of games. That's just how the industry is and boycotting isn't going to solve that.

Oh, and side note: People lie. Or exaggerate. Or downplay. I have had other developers in my own studio during crunch claim to not be crunching because we were only working 60-70 hours a week. Because their last studio worked 80+ during crunch. So this isn't crunch. Because we're in some toxic environment Olympics and shit ain't as bad as the worst experience I've ever had so...

Or, my personal favorite, when "We don't have crunch" actually means "We don't have mandatory crunch". Let me tell you about 'voluntary overtime'. It ain't voluntary. There are always punishments for not 'volunteering' to work extra hours during 'not crunch'. Either you start getting bad performance reviews from your bosses because it 'doesn't seem like you are putting in the extra effort'. Or you get left off emails or meetings out of spite. Or you get reassigned to some other part of the project that is less prestigious or more rudimentary, grunt work. Or you just straight up get demoted or fired. And what quickly happens is that you are bullied into either crunching (but 'not crunching') or pushed out of the company.

There are a lot of developers willing to publicly tow the company line that they 'don't crunch' because it's voluntary. Or their work environment isn't toxic because 'we have great benefits'. I have worked for some exceptionally shitty companies and every single one had developers willing to go in front of the media and proclaim just how awesome the studio and work environment were.

2) Boycotting punishes developers more than publishers.

I've seen countless players (and the media) claim to be fighting the industry's business practices - be it loot boxes, microtransactions, crunch, storefront exclusivity, whatever - by either boycotting products or giving poor reviews. And somehow this will show those in control of these products (publishers) that their ways are wrong. It doesn't. The people at the top of most of these companies are... fucking insane. There's probably more appropriate word to describe their behavior but I don't know what it is. There's no introspection going on when something with the game doesn't pan out. Bad reviews don't make studio heads and publishers think "Oh, geez, maybe it was the bullshit monetization we did that tanked the product!"

What happens is - excuses get made that are almost universally laid on the development team. YOU didn't implement our vision properly. YOU didn't work hard enough on these features. YOU didn't do enough crunch. YOU missed this milestone and that's why our game bombed.

Bonuses are withheld, developers are laid off, benefits at the studio are slashed.

This shit don't work.

Oh, by the way, one thing about this I want to highlight: Bonuses in the game industry.

Base salary
at a lot of game studios is actually pretty low. I know every time the Game Developer Salary survey (or something similar) comes out and people look and see "OMG, devs make $90k a year!". Yeah, most of those are reporting ALL income - including bonuses. Bonuses are a HUGE portion of overall income for some developers. I have seen developers earn anywhere from 10%-100% of their yearly salary in a launch bonus. So, sure, I may have made $120k this year, but half of that was from the launch bonus.

But then the game gets bad sales for whatever reason. Or bad reviews. Well, my bonus was tied to a combination of metacritic score and sales benchmarks. And now I get nothing. The studio head still walks away with a six figure bonus. The publisher executives get paid 10x my salary regardless. The only person actually feeling any financial punishment are the developers.

So, buy whatever the hell you want. While developers probably appreciate the gesture, you aren't actually fixing any problems - and you might actually be actively hurting the people you are trying to stand up for.

Edit: Another reason talking about this is so damn hard is that even within the same studio, different jobs can have wildly different contracts and experiences. My experiences have been as a full time systems designer. I know other developers - especially artists - under contract rather than full time will not have the same issues with bonuses or even the same experiences with crunch. Sometimes one department will be working 80+ hours a week while another department, with different management, deadlines, etc., will be working 40 hours. One developer claiming bonuses matter while another claims they don't are not actually disagreeing - they just don't have the same work contract details. Just as one developer claiming they're not working crunch doesn't necessarily mean no one in the entire studio is, or vice versa.

This is a good insight.

Haven't you bought Nioh 2..today?

lol
 

Swift_Gamer

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
3,701
Rio de Janeiro
User Banned (1 week): Ignoring staff post
OMG! The shock and horror? Some of my friends work off shore on rigs etc. Their jobs are hard graft and 12 hours minimum. The pay is fantastic and so are the benefits. The people at ND are getting paid proper wages and benefits. What about workers (including child labour) in 3rd world countries? You'll happily by clothes and items without a second thought. Where's the concern?
So are you gonna stop buying the majority of items made in China and other countries where people are getting paid peanuts and working 12 hour shifts or more?
Preach.
 

Thecrunked

Member
Oct 25, 2017
115
i won't be buying it but that has nothing to do with crunch and everything to do with the first game being overrated and not fun
 

ScatheZombie

Member
Oct 26, 2017
398
Thanks for sharing your experience. So what can we as consumers do? It seems like not buying the game hurts developers but buying the game would just continue the status quo.

It doesn't make sense to tie your purchasing to the ethics of the business in this circumstance. I don't advocate buying to 'support devs' or boycotting to 'hurt publishers'. Buy what you want, or don't.

These companies are not going to willingly change their behaviors when the issues are this systemic and self-supporting. No amount of boycotting or social media awareness or public shaming is going to change that (I mean, really, how many times do we need to vote EA the worst company in the world before people realize they don't care). They have to be forced to change - legally. They exploit the lacking employment laws in certain countries (the US in particular) and the loopholes for specific exceptions. Until those change, everything else is just lip service to make people feel better about the situation.
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
Definitely will put off my purchase until we know more.
 

JoJoBae

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,493
Layton, UT
I agree with the sentiment, but boycotting the game and potentially making the devs who crunched their asses off miss their sales bonuses isn't great either. I wasn't going to buy the game, at least not for a while, but... idk. Shit is complicated.

If you were gonna get it, get it. And vice versa. I say.
 

Swift_Gamer

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
3,701
Rio de Janeiro
That is exactly the plan yes. From here on out I will only be purchasing games from studios that do not rely on crunch and until I can get confirmation of that fact they will not have my money because I refuse to support this practice.
If we can spread awareness and impact company's bottom lines enough then perhaps things will actually change and we will have a healthier more sustainable industry for everyone.
Will you, OP, stop buying anything produced in China or crunch is the only thing that matter for you?
 

SleepSmasher

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,094
Australia
So, ex-AAA dev here with some feedback for those that actually want to change crunch practices.

1) Almost everyone crunches.

Most studios, especially in AAA, have crunch. In fact, out of the four different publishers I have worked for, every single one expected ALL studios under them to crunch to hit milestones/deadlines. And studios oblige because you don't want to lose incentives, bonuses, funding, or support staff. The list of studios who don't crunch - the list of products that are made 'crunch-free' is going to be unbelievably small if you are looking at AAA products. So if you plan to boycott products that are made in toxic work environments - it's going to be the vast majority of games. That's just how the industry is and boycotting isn't going to solve that.

Oh, and side note: People lie. Or exaggerate. Or downplay. I have had other developers in my own studio during crunch claim to not be crunching because we were only working 60-70 hours a week. Because their last studio worked 80+ during crunch. So this isn't crunch. Because we're in some toxic environment Olympics and shit ain't as bad as the worst experience I've ever had so...

Or, my personal favorite, when "We don't have crunch" actually means "We don't have mandatory crunch". Let me tell you about 'voluntary overtime'. It ain't voluntary. There are always punishments for not 'volunteering' to work extra hours during 'not crunch'. Either you start getting bad performance reviews from your bosses because it 'doesn't seem like you are putting in the extra effort'. Or you get left off emails or meetings out of spite. Or you get reassigned to some other part of the project that is less prestigious or more rudimentary, grunt work. Or you just straight up get demoted or fired. And what quickly happens is that you are bullied into either crunching (but 'not crunching') or pushed out of the company.

There are a lot of developers willing to publicly tow the company line that they 'don't crunch' because it's voluntary. Or their work environment isn't toxic because 'we have great benefits'. I have worked for some exceptionally shitty companies and every single one had developers willing to go in front of the media and proclaim just how awesome the studio and work environment were.

2) Boycotting punishes developers more than publishers.

I've seen countless players (and the media) claim to be fighting the industry's business practices - be it loot boxes, microtransactions, crunch, storefront exclusivity, whatever - by either boycotting products or giving poor reviews. And somehow this will show those in control of these products (publishers) that their ways are wrong. It doesn't. The people at the top of most of these companies are... fucking insane. There's probably more appropriate word to describe their behavior but I don't know what it is. There's no introspection going on when something with the game doesn't pan out. Bad reviews don't make studio heads and publishers think "Oh, geez, maybe it was the bullshit monetization we did that tanked the product!"

What happens is - excuses get made that are almost universally laid on the development team. YOU didn't implement our vision properly. YOU didn't work hard enough on these features. YOU didn't do enough crunch. YOU missed this milestone and that's why our game bombed.

Bonuses are withheld, developers are laid off, benefits at the studio are slashed.

This shit don't work.

Oh, by the way, one thing about this I want to highlight: Bonuses in the game industry.

Base salary
at a lot of game studios is actually pretty low. I know every time the Game Developer Salary survey (or something similar) comes out and people look and see "OMG, devs make $90k a year!". Yeah, most of those are reporting ALL income - including bonuses. Bonuses are a HUGE portion of overall income for some developers. I have seen developers earn anywhere from 10%-100% of their yearly salary in a launch bonus. So, sure, I may have made $120k this year, but half of that was from the launch bonus.

But then the game gets bad sales for whatever reason. Or bad reviews. Well, my bonus was tied to a combination of metacritic score and sales benchmarks. And now I get nothing. The studio head still walks away with a six figure bonus. The publisher executives get paid 10x my salary regardless. The only person actually feeling any financial punishment are the developers.

So, buy whatever the hell you want. While developers probably appreciate the gesture, you aren't actually fixing any problems - and you might actually be actively hurting the people you are trying to stand up for.

Edit: Another reason talking about this is so damn hard is that even within the same studio, different jobs can have wildly different contracts and experiences. My experiences have been as a full time systems designer. I know other developers - especially artists - under contract rather than full time will not have the same issues with bonuses or even the same experiences with crunch. Sometimes one department will be working 80+ hours a week while another department, with different management, deadlines, etc., will be working 40 hours. One developer claiming bonuses matter while another claims they don't are not actually disagreeing - they just don't have the same work contract details. Just as one developer claiming they're not working crunch doesn't necessarily mean no one in the entire studio is, or vice versa.
Thank you.
Hey RexNovis , how about replying to this one. Straight from the horse's mouth.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,969
I cannot pressume to know what messofanego's intentions were, but the wording at least seemed genuine, and I personally also felt a bit disturbed by the "this game is the only reason I have to live" posts, too (again, I just refrained from replying because I know it never helps). Granted, that may color my interpretation of his post, but I want to think most people here would not intentionally attack people in that situation.
It did not seem genuine because the person was clearly using hyperbole for effect. Jumping in with "have you considered therapy" was a way to posture like they cared whole also mocking the idea that things like this are important to some people.

Life is hard, escapism can be an important thing. I really cannot see how that could be missed and jumping to "therapy" was in anyway a genuine call for care.
 

Oticon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,446
It doesn't make sense to tie your purchasing to the ethics of the business in this circumstance. I don't advocate buying to 'support devs' or boycotting to 'hurt publishers'. Buy what you want, or don't.

These companies are not going to willingly change their behaviors when the issues are this systemic and self-supporting. No amount of boycotting or social media awareness or public shaming is going to change that (I mean, really, how many times do we need to vote EA the worst company in the world before people realize they don't care). They have to be forced to change - legally. They exploit the lacking employment laws in certain countries (the US in particular) and the loopholes for specific exceptions. Until those change, everything else is just lip service to make people feel better about the situation.
Thanks for the insight, appreciate it!