#CrunchNoMore I will not buy Last of Us 2. Join me

[werezompire]

Seeing a lot of people talk about jobs & bonuses. I have no first-hand of this particular studio, but I believe general AAA studio conditions are such that...

1 - A lot of people working on AAA games never had a job to begin with. They're contract temporary workers brought on to try to speed up completion. They're not getting benefits & in most instances, they won't be hired for a full-time position once their project is completed, because the studio saves money by relying on cheap, temporary, disposable workers.

2 - Crunch culture is such that among the people who do have actual jobs, a lot of them will get burnt out and quit.

3 - Bonuses primarily (or solely) go to administrators & senior staff. It's not like an indie studio where royalties are frequently shared amongst everyone involved (often, in place of salaries).

 

[Iron Eddie]

The way I see this can work is sharing about the story on social media. Raise awereness that it can reach more people. This will make pressure on Sony like we did on crossplay and hopefully they give a shit fixing it

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This is very true. The last thing we need are shaming others who just want to play games. At the end of the day it is those are the very top that make these decisions and if sales went sideways you really think it's going to hurt them more than those who put in thsoe long hours? We are all guilty of buying products from China, you think they have decent wages and regular working conditions?

We need to speak out but voting with your wallets is not really the answer.

 

[GemmolSwitchPS4]

I join no purchase from me

 

[TsuWave]

edit - edited previous post

 

[Joo]

This is of course noble, but at the same time extremely silly and won't change anything.

Trusting in consumers to force a change in work practices is not realistic in any situation. Game developers need to unionize, that's the only thing which will have any kind of impact.

You can boycott last of us 2 all you want but it will only be for your own peace of mind, nothing else. If you are consistent on this kind of stance, you might as well stop buying games, and in addition to that electronics in general, "normal" priced clothes, certain imported food etc, because all of these have worse working conditions than game developers. It's just silly to pick certain things and then be very righteous just about them.

 

[Joe White]

A game should pretty much be completely disconnected from the developer, a game needs to get a score based on how it is as a game and not because the dev is nice to their workers.

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Games don't exist in void, and the results are reviewed against devs previous output as well as contemporary games. So we def should criticise results also when its production (content and/or marketing) cause harm to people.

 

[julian]

No purchase from me!

Spoiler

cause I never beat the first one

 

[NoKisum]

Era boycotting TLOU? That's like the definition of oxymoron.

 

[speedomodel]

The part that really gets me is them trying to have him sign a disclosure about their production practices. THAT is fucked up and shows they know how bad they are....

 

[XaviConcept]

Yes, after they work their asses off, let's make this game a flop and possibly close the studio. That's gonna send a message. No.

That Kotaku article is already going to cause some pressure and there's a lot more we can do instead of boycotting other people's work.
I don't remember this energy to boycott Red Dead Redemption 2 and so many other games...
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Thats not realistic, dude. This wont affect sales or job status. TLOU2 will make a SHITLOAD of money regardless of an ERA thread lol

And yes we had a very similar thread with RDR2. I would know, I made it (and we were still in GAF at that point)

Care to share any stories you knew?

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Its 6am and Im in bed so not at this time haha but a quick note.

If ND's crunch problem is related to talent not being able/willing to stop themselves from overworking themselves to near death just imagine how its like for indies with WAY less management, WAY more financial pressure and WAY more development difficulty. This is not all that different from Cuphead and 90% of indies ARE the Cuphead story without the happy ending

 

[Memento]

Ok...

First, this is going to be one of the biggest games of the year. Possibly the biggest Sony game ever. There is no way any boycott could ever work or have any minimal effect on a game of this magnitude.

Second, how would punish the devs that worked hard on the game help at all?

Third, every single AAA dev are crunch-lead. All your favorite AAA games had intense crunch periods. Period. This is something industry wide and there is no way a boycott would change ANYTHING. The proper way of dealing with it IS TO UNIONIZE.

Fourth, TLOU2 is the sequel to my favorite game ever. I will not be a hypocrite to follow a sense of moral that I already know it is virtually impossible to follow on a capitalist society. I mean, our tech products are made with slave work. Of course we need to stand up against it but it is EXTREMELY naive to think boycott campaigns would ever work against massively popular products.

 

[hrœrekr]

Skeptical, but I'll join.

 

[Ghost Slayer]

Not sure what you want to hear, pretty much every Indie Dev I ever talked to put in more than 40 hours of work weeks to pull off their passion projects, which could mean 60 hours dev, or 30 hours normal work and 30 hours indie dev.

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60 hours? That's insane. But Im curious about indie studios. The one you talked about its devs who have fulltime job and work on game outside of working hours I assume

 

[N.47H.4N]

I will be playing day one and enjoy every minute.

 

[Cordy]

Another thing, there's been a lot of shots through this thread at people who will still buy the game and a lot of people are saying that those people "don't care", see that stuff is one reason people think you can never have good discussions on this forum. There's been numerous people who have said "nah I'll get it but I'll be vocal about the companies issues" which makes sense from their perspective but just because they don't want to boycott people think they don't care. You can't even give your reasons without dudes whining.

Like I said earlier, Waypoint talked about this A LOT back when RDR2 came out and unlike now, where it seems people suddenly found out this was a thing, there was more discussion. When speaking to numerous game devs about it the game devs actually said "no, buy the games to support our work just be vocal about crunch, don't boycott" and now we're seeing many people here stick to the stance that they were told. And yet because it's not a boycott there's people who just can't handle that stance.

At the end of the day people need to realize that there's more ways to show you arent for something than boycotting. If you disagree then take it up with those game devs rather than trying to act like people don't care when the truth is they do care. If that's your stance then it's a matter of "ok do you care or do you just wanna act like you're holier than thou" because that's what a lot of comments sound like.

 

[Oneself]

Sorry but no, I will buy TLOU2. They've been working their asses off for years, they need the money.

 

[fattylion]

Gotta give them some reason to improve developer lives. Standing up and going on strikes does not work. Asia is such a cheap place to ger outsource work done. Look at the number of chinese and vietnames names in the end credits.

 

[Era of not Yakuza]

Please, if you don't care about crunch or the lives of employees, at least be honest, you may not even need to participate in that topic, but please don't say "Not buying will be even worse". This is such an intellectual dishonesty that I think that I myself will avoid talking here so I don't get stressed.

Let's see how a scenario where the public complains but still buys the game and a scenario where people complain and do not buy (completely hypothetical since we know it will sell any way):

ND Executive Meeting:
a) Well, our game sold millions, apparently our entire sales strategy and organizational culture paid off. We have ZERO reasons to change the way we produce the next games.

b) Our game flopped, what happened? who is to blame? what were the complaints of our consumers?

- Bonus -ND goes bankrupt:
c) Other companies: Did you see that ND went bankrupt? Apparently crunch generates bad marketing, maybe, just maybe, we need to ensure that we review this in our work environment.

 

[Deleted member 2254]

I will be playing day one and enjoy every minute.

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And this is related to the topic at hand how exactly?

 

[Cornbread78]

Lol; "OK millennial"


Work practices def need to change, but this is such an "Era" thing to do.

 

[Toma]

60 hours? That's insane. But Im curious about indie studios. The one you talked about its devs who have fulltime job and work on game outside of working hours I assume

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Yes, there are some bad examples, but most smaller Indie Devs do it because they have a shared vision/want to. Its still crunch, even over a longer period of time, but that is absolutely not uncommon.

Guess there is a discussion to be had about crunch people want to do, vs crunch people are expected to do, but that discussion will get all kinds of shades pretty quickly. Even in AAA studios you will have people feeling like they want to because its part of the culture they want to be part of.

 

[Reckheim]

A crunch thread has more posts than literal slavery.

It's like it only matters if the 'boycott' is easy to do.

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you always see it too.

 

[Ghost Slayer]

Its 6am and Im in bed so not at this time haha but a quick note.

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Its okay. We all lazy when we are in bed :)

 

[mxbison]

Then stop buying almost 80% of AAA Games.

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You won't even have a console if you stop buying stuff made my exploited workers. Problem solved.

Don't get me wrong, I think its good when people do this, but I'm not one of them.

 

[mojo]

When are these developers going to start acting like they want things to change though?

 

[Deleted member 17207]

crunch still happens, it might even be longer when a game gets delayed

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That doesn't really make any sense.

 

[LetalisAmare]

No.

They need to unionize. All devs do.

 

[BladeRunner2099]

That's literally it, the only solution.

And let's be real here, the devs have more bargaining power if the game sells well

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Imagine Industry veterans like Phil Spencer, Jim Ryan & Doug Bowser all say that from now on, ALL first party studios will no longer have crunch culture ( Some weeks with 10-12 Hrs can be negotiated with employees). That would be bold and a step forward. EA, Activision, Rockstar, Ubisoft etc. can all join in if they want.

 

[Mechaplum]

I'd rather not be a hypocrite.

 

[Chaystic]

I have no idea how my post warrants this response. I'm not on a forum defending the practices of these companies. Keep deflecting instead of holding them to better standards.

It's more than possible.

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I haven't seen anyone actively supporting crunch times, most of us just don't believe that boycotting games is the solution to stop it.

 

[Majukun]

would love to give me contribution , but reality is, i was not gonna buy the game anyway

 

[The Johnstruct]

This is of course noble, but at the same time extremely silly and won't change anything.

Trusting in consumers to force a change in work practices is not realistic in any situation. Game developers need to unionize, that's the only thing which will have any kind of impact.

You can boycott last of us 2 all you want but it will only be for your own peace of mind, nothing else.

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I would like to echo this sentiment. Especially since I probably wouldn't not have worded it as well as this.

 

[werezompire]

Care to share any stories you knew?

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Most of my games, I ended up crunching towards the end, because I was out of money (or already in debt) and I desperately wanted to start having money. There have been the occasional moments when I crunched because I was excited to be almost done or we had something new that I wanted to see implemented, but the vast majority of times I've crunched is because I've been desperate for money and as an indie dev without outside funding, the only way you get money is by releasing stuff.

A big company that has producers whose jobs are specifically to manage projects has no good excuse for crunch. They're exploiting people to keep costs down & profit up.

 

[plow]

How about don't use whataboutism literally every time an issue with capitalism is brough up?



[X] Doubt

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I work in IT, but thanks for knowing how i feel. It's not whataboutism in telling there is actually worse things in the world happening even in gaming right now. It's easy to say that you won't buy a game you didn't have any intenion in buying anyway. I'm just showing the hypocrisy.

 

[Rosebud]

Its 6am and Im in bed so not at this time haha but a quick note.

If ND's crunch problem is related to talent not being able/willing to stop themselves from overworking themselves to near death just imagine how its like for indies with WAY less management, WAY more financial pressure and WAY more development difficulty. This is not all that different from Cuphead and 90% of indies ARE the Cuphead story without the happy ending

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Yeah I remember when Toby Fox said he was getting crazy with Undertale sequel... but indies are usually small groups without companies pressure, so what could be done?

 

[DontHateTheBacon]

Sorry, this is pointless.

Also, if I did crunch on a game and get hospitalized, Miss major family milestones, etc; I'd hope that it was at least worth bringing people something they enjoyed.

But your money is your money, and no one should count it or spend it for you! Enjoy your boycott.

At the end of the day, it's going to come down to unionization stopping this from happening, because it's not going to self-regulate out of the industry, on a large scale.

 

[Chronokeys]

I'm tired of people complaining about this crunch thing. Listen people this is a reality in many industries, not just video games. I'm not saying it's ok but every job has its ups and downs, you can't have it all. This is not a perfect world and so there is no such thing as a perfect job. Art is one of the most demanding professions out there because things will never be perfect, no matter how many delays a game gets, or a song, or a movie, or a painting, you can always add something to make it better, I'm sure many artist can relate to this. And deadlines exist, companies cannot keep pouring money into studios without getting a return forever. And everyone should strive for quality, if not then the effort is wasted.

If you can't handle this then stop buying phones, watching movies, don't go to a concert because omg the musicians have been on tour for so long, I'm sure they are tired, shame on the record labels; the meat you eat comes from a cow that probably didn't have a very good life, shit people have committed atrocities to people in the name of the god you probably believe in... I can name hundreds of examples but you'll be surprised to know that many people enjoy the hard work. As a musician I certainly get tired when I have 3 or 4 gigs on a single day, but I don't go around crying about it, it's a job and I'm grateful for having one and I enjoy it.

When it comes to art there are no schedules, inspiration can come at any time and for me it's usually at night. Things are what they are. Remember that these developers are choosing to be there, they aren't being forced by a guy with a gun to work there, they can leave whenever they want, it's their choice, they are free human beings leaving in a society and playing by its rules. Now if the developers aren't getting paid and are being forced to work for hours and hours without food and bathroom breaks, like maybe in chains alone in isolated rooms with just a computer and without the ability to call their loved ones, then that's a problem. I'm sure this is not the case at naughty dog. It's a probably a safe thing to say that nobody got kidnapped to be there. Every line of work has its hard and easy days, and it's best for you to remember that so that you don't get surprised down the line. Also there are government institutions dedicated to keep a healthy and fair work environment, if the working conditions are inhumane and want to do something about it contact them.

Really this is starting to feel an episode of the flash, everyone is so annoyingly whiny. I for one cannot wait for the last of us 2, I'm sure it's gonna be amazing... unless it's not. Will I be banned for this post?

 

[Deleted member 27471]

You don't want to participate that's fine. But discounting the idea that this could work if everyone bought in is really just saying it's to hard so why even try.

The people saying that it's more important to bring awareness, well this is exactly what it will be doing, this is what bringing awareness looks like. Them losing millions in sales because people got together and didn't buy a game is the type of noise you would want to generate. Maybe they would get the message at that point.

I don't think it's fair to say its on the dev's and consumers shouldn't have to do anything. I understand it's a hard choice. It means not buying a game you are really looking forward to. But losing millions in revenue because there a clear message that consumers won't support these games is a great way to bring awareness to the issue.

 

[jeelybeans]

Are we sure this is the best way to make change? Aren't developer bonuses tied to sales?

 

[KernelC]

I feel like there is a hidden agenda here of people who weren't planning on buying either way, doesn't come off as genuine to me judging by responses. Especially since it seems like the developers are indeed getting paid quite well, unpaid crunch time is a huge no no.

 

[Vagabond]

Is this more effective vs an e-mail/press campaign? Direct communication vs passive aggressivism.

 

[Eggman]

Lol its funny seeing people trying to be so high and mighty while they type their comments from their smart phone manufactured in China by people who work in much worse conditions.

Most of the stuff you own is made by someone working under worse conditions than video game developers. Seems like an odd place to draw the line.

There was an article released a few weeks ago about slave labor in China and how almost every large company in the world uses them that got barely any reaction.

 

[Jssom]

All power to you who will boycott to send a message.

I encourage you to do the same with products from china that are using Uighurs as slaves for brands you like Apple, Google, Microsoft, Nintendo, Samsung & Sony.

This is the Era thread about the situation:

[BBC] In China, Uighurs 'moved into factory forced labour' for foreign brands Apple, Google, Microsoft, Nintendo, Sony

It was recommended that I cross post this from EtcetEra for awareness, particularly as we move towards a new generation of consoles. Letting people make informed decisions about where they're willing to put their money is the best thing anyone can do here. Here's the latest on the various...

www.resetera.com

Please participate in the thread and try to spread awareness.

 

[MeltedDreams]

Boycotts won't work, will be the same as RDR 2 and millions of people will still buy the game no matter what. However, with a lot of negative press things can change a bit in future. Same happened to Rockstar - Jason exposed them month before their biggest game and months later we already heard that working conditions have started to improve over there.

 

[zMiiChy-]

1) It's a gaming forum.
2) It's a popular videogame/franchise/developer.
3) The extreme post count is because half the posts are mocking the OP for the boycott, chiming in with useless posts "lol no I'm buying" or pulling out the good old whataboutism.

Nobody is forced to boycott everything. OP has every right to not feel like supporting a developer that crunches hard as a company policy, and if this place is truly a progressive, liberal, pro-worker website, he definitely shouldn't be mocked for it. Just because we all own countless products made through slavery, crunch, devilishly low wages or horrible hygiene conditions it doesn't mean somebody should be called out for making a small fight against a game. I own multiple Naughty Dog games myself and will probably play TLOU2 down the line as I enjoyer the first one. I'm still very much against their work culture (just like with Rockstar, CD Projekt RED, etc.). I gladly admit I don't have the strength to get rid of all products in my life that I find morally questionable, but the people who try and make a small difference even in a single videogame should not be attacked for doing so. It's disappointing that is the reaction he's getting.

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In regards to point #3, I'd like point out that they are likely referring to the other 2 Naughty Dog Crunch threads, which both have more posts then the pinned thread.
Granted, they might still consist of 50% drivel, just pointing that out.

I also want to commend you for being likely to first person in this thread to comment on other toxic working conditions regarding capitalism without raging or dismissing them.

 

[Era of not Yakuza]

"If you cant do everything then you shouldn't do anything"
Signed: Whataboutism's troll

 

[Murdock]

Not buying this. Fuck sony

 

[Ghost Slayer]

Most of my games, I ended up crunching towards the end, because I was out of money (or already in debt) and I desperately wanted to start having money.

A big company that has producers whose jobs are specifically to manage projects has no good excuse for crunch. They're exploiting people to keep costs down & profit up.

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That's bad :(
At least you crunch because you have no choice and you willing to do it. I agree its no excuse for big studios who have money to force crunch on their employees

 

[XaviConcept]

Yeah I remember when Toby Fox said he was getting crazy with Undertale sequel... but indies are usually small groups without companies pressure, so what could be done?

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Indies still have Indie publishers that apply TONS of pressure and very often are waay less professional than a AAA company is

 

[ryan299]

Buy it used. That will hurt them