Criticism of something does not mean you want it to fail.

[Troast]

I see a lot of messages around here replying to criticism of something, claiming those behind the opinion have an agenda to see that thing fail.

No. If I don't like something, it has nothing to do with my feeling about the success of this game. It is that simple.

If a game is good, I want it to succeed. More games that I enjoy is always welcome.

I think this notion comes from that fact that, if you like something, and others don't and it fails, you feel like you need a scapegoat. Blame the people who wanted this to fail with their negative opinions.

 

[Tfritz]

I see a lot of messages around here replying to criticism of something, claiming those behind the opinion have an agenda to see that thing fail.

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Yeah it's completely bonkers the way some folks act, especially in review threads.

 

[skeezx]

agreed but there's far more sideline gawkers who have no interest in playing something/supporting a platform that cheerlead a "failure" narrative. so that's why it's a thing

 

[Aokiji]

I can take a wild guess about what things you're referring to xD

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I usually criticize the things I enjoy harsher than things I couldn't care less about.

 

[VorpalNonsense]

People got a bad case of binary thinking where criticism automatically equals enemy of whatever you're criticizing. Current events are only making people act more polarizing.

It's definitely annoying but what are you gonna do? Sports team mentality is basically human nature. People pick a team and anyone who rocks the boat MUST BE ONE OF THEM. They're basically contributing nothing and hindering discussion, all you can do is try to be clear about your position and try not to take the bait.

What gets me are the corporate cheerleaders, too. Which ties into the sports team mentality that cannot tolerate criticism. I think much of the public has been given a case of stockholm syndrome where they've been so conditioned to be subordinate to The Company that they defend it like family, and the feeling isn't mutual. This also ties into system wars, and a variety of other topics. Watching someone kiss a corporation's feet is embarrassing. It's basically the capitalism verison of I FORGIVE YOU QUEEN! Companies are very good about maneuvering peoples mentalities into a subordinate position.
You see it here sometimes. I don't think people realize how they've been conditioned as a consumer. And it makes me worried about how kids today are handling it because they're exposed to it harder and earlier than I ever was.

 

[Hassel]

The internet has destroyed precise and nuanced language.

 

[monmagman]

I think people tend to associate themselves to closely with the games they enjoy.Then any slight on the game becomes a slight on them and they get upset.
I love The Last Guardian for instance and think it's genius in it's design.........many think it's a boring slightly broken long awaited let down........that's ok,lol.

 

[Plum]

What gets me are the corporate cheerleaders, too. Which ties into the sports team mentality. I think much of the public has been given a case of stockholm syndrome where they've been so conditioned to be subordinate to The Company that they defend it like family, and the feeling isn't mutual. This also ties into system wars. Watching someone kiss a corporation's feet is embarrassing. It's basically the capitalism verison of I FORGIVE YOU QUEEN! Companies are very good about maneuvering peoples mentalities into a subordinate position. You see it here all the time.

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I get the point but I've also found that the same "YOU MUST BE ONE OF THEM" mentality often applies to the concept of "corporate cheerleaders" as well. Often enough there's been points where I haven't fully agreed with the "fuck this company and literally nothing about this excusable" narrative and have been accused of 'kissing' that corporation's feet because of it. Other times I've seen people accuse others of being corporate shills simply because they're losing an argument.

Basically we shouldn't paint someone as something simply because of a single point of view they've expressed in a single thread. If you do feel that someone's going too far into the 'fanboy' or 'hater' (I hate those terms) side of things then just don't engage with them anymore, it's not worth it trying otherwise.

 

[VorpalNonsense]

I get the point but I've also found that the same "YOU MUST BE ONE OF THEM" mentality often applies to the concept of "corporate cheerleaders" as well. Often enough there's been points where I haven't fully agreed with the "fuck this company and literally nothing about this excusable" narrative and have been accused of 'kissing' that corporation's feet because of it. Other times I've seen people accuse others of being corporate shills simply because they're losing an argument.

Basically we shouldn't paint someone as something simply because of a single point of view they've expressed in a single thread. If you do feel that someone's going too far into the 'fanboy' or 'hater' (I hate those terms) side of things then just don't engage with them anymore, it's not worth it trying otherwise.

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Yeah, of course without specific examples and histories it can go both ways depending on context. And I've definitely seen people accused of being shills just for having a positive opinion of something that makes someone else mad. It all ties together and context is important.

I was harassed and accused of being an EA shill by some deranged internet stalker because I said some positive things about Battlefront. But my history suggests I have no qualms calling out EA's bullshit, either. But with Sports Team Mentality Activated™, obviously I must be a paid employee of EA.

People don't enjoy nuance because then they actually have to talk and think instead of just spitting out internet catchphrases and posting reaction gifs.

 

[ThiefofDreams]

Anthem threads, which are obviously the catalyst for this one, have become a circle jerk of hyperbole.

I'm more than fine with criticism, and there are definitely things in that game that deserve it; but the constant Fuck EA, deliberate ingnorace of how MTX are in the game, and saying the game looks like a first gen release , just to name a few of the ridiculous things being spouted off and taking over literally any discussion that can be had in threads about the game.

Those people aren't and haven't been interested in the game and don't care about how honest their criticism is. If the game isnt for you, that's cool. If there is something that turns you off, that's fine too. But spending thousands of post shitting all over a game because you like to get a rise out of other posters that like the game is fucking stupid.

 

[ColonelForbin]

I feel like this must be about anthem. What a technical mess that game is right now. Everyone should respect a negative opinion of a game they love, as long as it's constructive. I wonder if pre-order culture creates more feelings of being defensive about a game not living up to expectations.

 

[N64Controller]

Hey OP, hum, if you don't like it why don't just LEAVE?

 

[Vincent Alexander]

I feel like this must be about anthem. What a technical mess that game is right now. Everyone should respect a negative opinion of a game they love, as long as it's constructive. I wonder if pre-order culture creates more feelings of being defensive about a game not living up to expectations.

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I assumed it was about the Switch with the PS4 outselling it in 2018.

 

[Nintendo]

Some people here actually want some games to fail.

 

[Deleted member 49132]

Some people here actually want some games to fail.

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Yep, I remember plenty of people here wanting RDR2 to fail once the fake 100-hour-week controversy blew up

 

[N2B]

I completely agree, I hope some will listen to this

 

[Roygbiv95]

Not sure if this is referencing something specific or not, but in a general sense criticism from fans could probably be more thoughtful than it is and unsolicited feedback should always be taken with a mound of salt. Criticism of a game or movie made by someone who isn't in those industries or didn't pay their dues to write for a publication is same as a rando coming up to you in the gym and telling you you're fat, instead of a personal trainer explaining in detail how to get thin or more athletic.

It's often not so much helpful as it is letting you know that what you're doing isn't working in an obvious way that you might have already considered. So your just sitting there reading it like "I know?" while the person who left that passionate comment has probably convinced themselves and many reading it that they've articulated a thoughtful critique of the issues with your game/movie/whatever when what was said really wasn't very constructive, and it can be frustrating sometimes. This can spread and become more of a common trend, unfortunately, which can in effect even dictate the quality of some creative work to an extent.

 

[TrashFuego]

I think criticism is fine but some people enjoy to troll, its the internet, and I think sometimes that trolling leads to taking criticism of said game too seriously.

I love Artifact and Ive certainly seen it get blasted. But whatever, I still like it, hopefully valve pulls a csgo and reiterates so it gets a community.

 

[T002 Tyrant]

I prefer when people put in criticism where they offer a realistic solution to rectify the issue.

 

[LuckyLinus]

Alot of people trash things just to get attention.

Alot of people take criticism to a game they like as a personal attack.

 

[Burrman]

agreed but there's far more sideline gawkers who have no interest in playing something/supporting a platform that cheerlead a "failure" narrative. so that's why it's a thing

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Ya there's obvious patterns with certain ppl

 

[ghibli99]

By the same token, there's well thought-out criticism and then there's low effort shitposts/trolling. I'm fine with fair criticism. I enjoy critiquing my favorite games and 10/10s, because there are always ways to make games better, even the best ones.

 

[Dekuman]

I see a lot of messages around here replying to criticism of something, claiming those behind the opinion have an agenda to see that thing fail.

No. If I don't like something, it has nothing to do with my feeling about the success of this game. It is that simple.

If a game is good, I want it to succeed. More games that I enjoy is always welcome.

I think this notion comes from that fact that, if you like something, and others don't and it fails, you feel like you need a scapegoat. Blame the people who wanted this to fail with their negative opinions.

Click to shrink...

This is just general forum culture where you assume the worst of people.
I think criticism can be presented in a non hyperbolic way that is both grounded and are allowed to stand on their own merits.

All too often, people react poorly to criticism because it is presented with an angle/agenda or the person presenting it has no credibility based on their post history or two, the people just go from 0 to 100 in an instant.

I've cerainly been on the receiving end of people just slamming their quote/reply buttons on a post I thought was throwaway or merely adding to the conversation rather than being the centre of it.

Finally people should really just limit themselves to what interests them , it tends to avoid a lot of uncessary back and forth that derails threads and wastes people's time and enjoyment. The one thing I truly love about reddit is I can read a popular thread and all the relevant /important and good comments are usually upvoted or has enough upvotes to be fairly prominent, and the derails, shitposts etc are gone. You'll find the toxicity in those instances tend to be contained into reply chains within a comment, rather than derailing the entire discussion, at least for popular reddits like r/NintendoSwitch or something like that.

 

[Anth0ny]

 

[HardRojo]

I've found out I tend to be harsher on things I want to succeed because it'd be much better for me if they worked properly. Take Nintendo's shitty online service for instance, every time there's a thread about it, you'll find people downplaying how bad it is or simply going with whataboutism, it's quite stupid at some point, and I'm sure you'll find I criticize their service often, but that's because I'd really love to see it in better shape. What do I do about the stuff I don't give a shit about? Nothing, I don't go into other threads to tell people how much I hate something I don't care about because I wouldn't benefit from it being better and I'd only distort the discussion, probably derail it as well.

 

[jviggy43]

I usually criticize the things I enjoy harsher than things I couldn't care less about.

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Same. If its something I dont care for I likely wont even say anything. The stuff I'm most critical of is usually the stuff i i really want to succeed. But stuff wont get fixed unless were vocal about it.

 

[Dekuman]

I've found out I tend to be harsher on things I want to succeed because it'd be much better for me if they worked properly. Take Nintendo's shitty online service for instance, every time there's a thread about it, you'll find people downplaying how bad it is or simply going with whataboutism, it's quite stupid at some point, and I'm sure you'll find I criticize their service often, but that's because I'd really love to see it in better shape. What do I do about the stuff I don't give a shit about? Nothing, I don't go into other threads to tell people how much I hate something I don't care about because I wouldn't benefit from it being better and I'd only distort the discussion, probably derail it as well.

Click to shrink...

Or you can have a discussion about it instead of dropping how shitty it is. I actually feel pretty ambivalent about the service and I usually just post what I think and they get zero responses.

I get it, posting something provocative gets attention and I sometimes accidentally post something provocative, but we all have to admit that's sort of playing to the crowd effect to posting on a forum where getting the red notification icons is like an injection of dopamine, the forum equivalent of winning a small prize in a gacha game.

And on the 10th iteration of a thread, you have to imagine the arguments have gone in circles by that point and people who are still at it are just partisans. This is true of really any console warring bullshit threads, which thankfully generally don't happen anymore. People are either too smart or the moderation too good to have those types of threads here.

 

[jviggy43]

I've found out I tend to be harsher on things I want to succeed because it'd be much better for me if they worked properly. Take Nintendo's shitty online service for instance, every time there's a thread about it, you'll find people downplaying how bad it is or simply going with whataboutism, it's quite stupid at some point, and I'm sure you'll find I criticize their service often, but that's because I'd really love to see it in better shape. What do I do about the stuff I don't give a shit about? Nothing, I don't go into other threads to tell people how much I hate something I don't care about because I wouldn't benefit from it being better and I'd only distort the discussion, probably derail it as well.

Click to shrink...

Said it better than I ever could.

I've found out I tend to be harsher on things I want to succeed because it'd be much better for me if they worked properly. Take Nintendo's shitty online service for instance, every time there's a thread about it, you'll find people downplaying how bad it is or simply going with whataboutism, it's quite stupid at some point, and I'm sure you'll find I criticize their service often, but that's because I'd really love to see it in better shape. What do I do about the stuff I don't give a shit about? Nothing, I don't go into other threads to tell people how much I hate something I don't care about because I wouldn't benefit from it being better and I'd only distort the discussion, probably derail it as well.

Click to shrink...

Said it better than I ever could

 

[Jest]

A lot of times the extreme responses to criticism aren't due to their being criticism so much as it's the criticism being poorly constructed or just plain hyperbole. Well constructed criticism leaves room for consideration and discussion.

 

[Deleted member 20297]

Days Gone: The criticism: The thread

 

[Cantaim]

The internet has destroyed precise and nuanced language.

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Yup and for some recent ResetEra evidence go into most any of the recent quarterly report threads for gaming companies. Reading between the lines of the statements was not a thing some posters were capable of. And that's not even that hard everyone posting in those threads had access to all the context they would need.

 

[Blade Wolf]

I usually criticize the things I enjoy harsher than things I couldn't care less about.

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This.

 

[Alucard_DCLXVI_]

Sports team mentality is basically human nature.

Click to shrink...

I certainly hope not. But I might be an abnormality.
------

Critique of culture is a natural part of art; a sender and a receiver. A creator cannot create anything without garnering critique - unless she's hiding it from the world.

This exchange has, I believe, been a part of all artists and creators since cavemen engraved ideas on cave walls.

Criticism is unavoidable. It may be unwarranted or its' argument may be poor and badly constructed and/or may have been done in bad faith (or maybe you don't get the point).
Either way, it's still just critique. There's seldom (read: never) a reason to be up in arms over another mind who thinks differently in regards to artistic expression.
---

But it's obviously not as simple as that in the medium of games or "nerd culture". How come?
Lack of "maturity"? Lack of acknowledging and respecting viewpoints differing from your own? Lack of understanding what critique entails and how it isn't a destructive force but a productive one?

--

This mania/craze in the culture might be responsible for the "get 90+ on metacritic to achieve a bonus" - I've heard of (where else would it come from?).
It's nothing new, several publications have found it ludicrous and ditched scoring altogether (eurogamer/polygon/kotaku).

If the art is perfect, critique is a non-factor. If it's not (which it always is), critique is a positive force.

Embrace it.

 

[Redcrayon]

I spend far more time being critical of the flaws (or at least as I see them- some might disagree) in the games I largely enjoyed, often because they stand out more in context and I've had a lot more time to mull it over. Dozens of hours in the case of RPGs. If I get to the end of one and there's only two or three minor criticisms I can think of based on thirty years of playing them, weighed up against, by definition, me having wanted to finish it and spent my limited hobby time on it, it means it was still really good regardless.

 

[BloodHound]

Anthem review thread and launch impressions gonna be a doozy

 

[Android Sophia]

Naoki Yoshida (current director/producer of FFXIV) talked about this at GDC once. He noted that the ones with criticisms are the ones who still cared about your game. It was the ones who were silent who stopped caring; and thus, didn't care if it failed. He also believed a complaint was worth twice as much as a compliment.

 

[Blade Wolf]

Naoki Yoshida (current director/producer of FFXIV) talked about this at GDC once. He noted that the ones with criticisms are the ones who still cared about your game. It was the ones who were silent who stopped caring; and thus, didn't care if it failed. He also believed a complaint was worth as much as a compliment.

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Absolutely, I criticized the shit out of RDR2 because I really want to love it, RDR1 was my favorite open world game of all time and the sequel meant a lot to me, so it really hurts to see some seriously poor design choices in the game. The sluggish control and bad mission design wouldn't even bothered me if I don't care about the game.

Games like Battlefront II on the other hand I can't even be bothered to criticize, it's a waste of my time and energy to even think about that game for a second.

 

[Screen Looker]

I have no idea what this is about but criticism and a desire to see something fail isn't exactly unlinked. Just depends on the criticism and the veracity of the claims.

Folks levying criticisms based on misinformation can most often be because they prefer to see something fail than to care enough to want to have a legit criticism.

 

[BIG J]

Criticism is fine. Shit posting camouflaged as criticism is annoying. Mixed with fake news