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Could an advanced civilization change the laws of physics?

  • Yes

    Votes: 159 21.9%
  • No

    Votes: 383 52.7%
  • ayy lmao

    Votes: 185 25.4%

  • Total voters
    727

Forerunner

Resetufologist
The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
14,827
bigthink.com

Could an advanced civilization change the laws of physics?

Do the laws of physics place a hard limit on how far technology can develop, or could an advanced civilization re-write those laws?

KEY TAKEAWAYS
  • Are there limits to technology? Can a species become so advanced that it could actually re-engineer physics?
  • One brilliant article explored the rules of physics and asked which ones might have been rewritten by a sufficiently advanced form of life.
  • It is wonderful to imagine the ways a civilization could move past what we know of the physical world. But it is also possible that the physics we know today severely limits life and what it can do.

If you are going to look for evidence of technologically advanced civilizations in the Universe, you must start by considering what, exactly, you might be looking for. My colleagues and I in the NASA-sponsored Categorizing Atmospheric Technosignatures program spend a lot of time thinking about this. But there is a question that haunts me as much as it challenges the project: How far can a civilization go as it advances?

This question relates directly to the Kardashev scale, a topic we have covered before. The Kardashev scale is all about energy harvesting.

Kardashev-Scale.jpg

Kardashev envisioned civilizations that are still subject to the laws of physics. The Universe gives these laws to them just as they are given to us. We cannot change these laws — we can only use them more or less efficiently.

But what if a civilization becomes so advanced that it can in fact change those laws? This civilization would have gone well beyond merely harvesting energy. The very nature of energy itself, with established rules like energy conservation, would be subject to revision within the scope of engineering.

Astrophysicist Caleb Scharf explored this kind of question in a piece entitled, "Is Physical Law an Alien Intelligence?" The work is a masterpiece of creative invention. Scharf explored the rules of physics and asked which ones might have been rewritten by a sufficiently advanced form of life.

Allow me to enter the fray and introduce some radical speculation of my own.

What if there are actually many laws of physics, but evolution selects the ones that organisms can observe? Perhaps in the process of establishing the difference between the self and the world — which really form a single whole — there is some freedom in how an infinitely rich Universe gets parsed into observers and observed. This idea is implied in the wonderful movie Arrival, where a species of aliens who come to Earth have a different cognitive and linguistic structure, and this gives them a very different physics of time. If physics and biological self-creation were linked in this way, perhaps a hyper-advanced civilization could indeed peel back the veneer separating self and Universe, and mix and match physical laws any way they see fit.

Is any of this possible? Well, a lot of things might be possible in the Universe, and many of those possibilities still work within the constraints of what we know about physical law. But it is also possible, and perhaps more likely, that the physics we know today puts severe limits on life and what it can do. These limits might constrain technological development enough to stop well short of what our science fiction can imagine. Perhaps, for example, there simply is no way around the limits imposed by the speed of light, and crossing the distances between stars will always be tremendously difficult and expensive.
 

Yossarian

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,276
Your article is so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
 

Deleted member 4461

User Requested Account Deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,010
Depends on what your definition of physics is.

Could they rewrite physics in the way we comprehend it? Sure.

Could they rewrite physics as a concept? No clue.
 

Siresly

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,619
No. But maybe they could utilize the laws of physics from another dimension.
 

hobblygobbly

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,666
NORDFRIESLAND, DEUTSCHLAND
they could only "rewrite" physics relative to our own knowledge, if we misunderstand something or lack knowledge, then sure maybe they have more and it could be to such an extent that it's "changed"

however, like with Einstein's theory of relativity or Newton's laws, it has been proven multiple times beyond doubt we understand particular parts of physics to its full extent

alien advanced civilizations are guaranteed to have different representations of physics and mathematics, but the principles would remain the same. same on earth, if you had to wipe out all knowledge, practically no religion would develop the same, however, mathematical principles would be discovered again, we might not represent them the same or have the same numeral system, but the principles would come again

What if there are actually many laws of physics, but evolution selects the ones that organisms can observe?
This is not possible. The person who wrote this article fundamentally does not understand physics. You don't need to observe physics to be aware of it or be affected by it. There's many concepts in physics we cannot "observe" but we know exists. Laws of physics act on every lifeform or object
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,400
Playing with the laws of physics sounds like a good way to incite false vacuum decay.
 

Parch

Member
Nov 6, 2017
7,980
You can counter the laws of physics significantly, but change them? No.

The people who believe that "anything is possible" are dreaming. That's not how the universe works.
 

Yahsper

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,563
This is not possible. The person who wrote this article fundamentally does not understand physics. You don't need to observe physics to be aware of it or be affected by it. There's many concepts in physics we cannot "observe" but we know exists. Laws of physics act on every lifeform or object
I'm sure you know better than a professor in astrophysics.
 

Grue

Member
Sep 7, 2018
5,017
I've re-read this article several times and I've either misunderstood it totally, or it's not saying anything new.

The article mentions this:

Scharf wondered if dark matter's lack of interactions might not be a consequence of natural law, but rather the engineered result of an advanced civilization's meddling.

But it doesn't discuss whether it has any merit, give any commentary on it, etc. Again please correct me if wrong.

After that we move on to another proposal entirely, completely unrelated to the headline:

Allow me to enter the fray and introduce some radical speculation of my own.

What if there are actually many laws of physics, but evolution selects the ones that organisms can observe? Perhaps in the process of establishing the difference between the self and the world — which really form a single whole — there is some freedom in how an infinitely rich Universe gets parsed into observers and observed.

So if I've understood this proposal correctly:

1. There are many laws of physics, we'll group them all as AllP
2. But only some are observable by conscious creatures, depending on their evolution, we'll call this subset ObsP
3. Maybe evolution selects for ObsP, or is even limited by selecting for ObsP, because AllP is not achievable for conscious beings​

I can't disagree with 1-3 above. My eyes often deceive me and I lose track of time. I don't think that's a radical discovery.

Maybe technology can do better than our evolved organs? No doubt! But as the author tells us:

But it is also possible, and perhaps more likely, that the physics we know today puts severe limits on life and what it can do.

These limits might constrain technological development enough to stop well short of what our science fiction can imagine. Perhaps, for example, there simply is no way around the limits imposed by the speed of light, and crossing the distances between stars will always be tremendously difficult and expensive.

So just to recap, the headline:

Could an advanced civilization change the laws of physics?

... Is the author saying 'no'?

I think I was there already.
 

Grue

Member
Sep 7, 2018
5,017
What if there are actually many laws of physics, but evolution selects the ones that organisms can observe?


This is not possible. The person who wrote this article fundamentally does not understand physics. You don't need to observe physics to be aware of it or be affected by it. There's many concepts in physics we cannot "observe" but we know exists. Laws of physics act on every lifeform or object

I don't think you're disagreeing with the author.

The author is suggesting laws of physics exist but we might not be able to perceive some of them. That doesn't mean they're not having an effect on us.

I also don't think that's a new idea, or probably one many people disagree with - including yourself, by your comments.

Honestly the whole article is a headline wrapped up as a What If that turns out to be a very old idea.
 

Maple

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,813
The laws of physics as we currently know them exist because it's how we've measured the natural world to the best of our abilities.

Dark matter, dark energy, quantum interactions, etc. There is so much that we simply do not know or understand, and more advanced revelations could reshape our entire perception of how things work.
 

Tygre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,198
Chesire, UK
This article is nonsense, but this bit:

Allow me to enter the fray and introduce some radical speculation of my own.​
What if there are actually many laws of physics, but evolution selects the ones that organisms can observe? Perhaps in the process of establishing the difference between the self and the world — which really form a single whole — there is some freedom in how an infinitely rich Universe gets parsed into observers and observed. This idea is implied in the wonderful movie Arrival, where a species of aliens who come to Earth have a different cognitive and linguistic structure, and this gives them a very different physics of time. If physics and biological self-creation were linked in this way, perhaps a hyper-advanced civilization could indeed peel back the veneer separating self and Universe, and mix and match physical laws any way they see fit.​

Is especially fucking nonsense.

It requires a complete misapprehension around what the "laws of physics" means on a conceptual level to write such drivel.
 

Grue

Member
Sep 7, 2018
5,017
The laws of physics as we currently know them exist because it's how we've measured the natural world to the best of our abilities.

Dark matter, dark energy, quantum interactions, etc. There is so much that we simply do not know or understand, and more advanced revelations could reshape our entire perception of how things work.

All agreed

This is very different to

Could an advanced civilization change the laws of physics?

The article uses this as a headline but doesn't comment on it.

IT simply proposes that lifeforms might not be able to perceive or understand the full laws of physics.
 
Dec 16, 2017
2,035
Newtonian physics continues to be useful even though Einstein's theory of relativity is more accurate. Perhaps science will advance to deepen the understanding of physics in a way that additional forces could be identified and manipulated.
 

アラナエ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
151
This article is nonsense, but this bit:

Allow me to enter the fray and introduce some radical speculation of my own.​
What if there are actually many laws of physics, but evolution selects the ones that organisms can observe? Perhaps in the process of establishing the difference between the self and the world — which really form a single whole — there is some freedom in how an infinitely rich Universe gets parsed into observers and observed. This idea is implied in the wonderful movie Arrival, where a species of aliens who come to Earth have a different cognitive and linguistic structure, and this gives them a very different physics of time. If physics and biological self-creation were linked in this way, perhaps a hyper-advanced civilization could indeed peel back the veneer separating self and Universe, and mix and match physical laws any way they see fit.​

Is especially fucking nonsense.

It requires a complete misapprehension around what the "laws of physics" means on a conceptual level to write such drivel.
giving an extreme amount of benefit of the doubt, the laws of physics do change quite dramatically depending on what scale you exist at, a inteligent being that lives at nanoscale would experience physics very differently from us, probably resulting in the laws of physics they come up with containing elements that we would never have discovered at our scale.

now as for whether you count that as "different" laws of physics or just different parts of the same laws however...
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,573
No unless you're talking about the laws of physics within a simulation, so they're not changing the laws of physics for themselves, just for a simulation they create (which we can already do and in fact happens all the time in a medium everyone on this forum should be very familiar with), but that's not particularly unique or special or a novel insight
 
Dec 15, 2017
664
If they could that would be like inventing magic, having the power to alter reality is something difficult to believe could happen
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,891
Even if they could, they wouldn't be able to see why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,142
That's what they did in the world of Futurama. Scientists increased the speed of light to make fast space travel possible.
 

ben_bot

Member
Feb 26, 2019
232
In the novel The Three Body Problem there are aliens who do something similar.
there are precursor aliens in the novels that existed as 4 dimensional, 5 dimensional and so on. They waged war on other species be changing space time to have less dimension. This evens happens to the Sol system when it's changed from 3 dimensions to 2 dimension. It's implied that the entire universe is slowly being collapsed into lower dimensional states since it's one of the few sure fire ways to protect yourself from other species. Implausible but a really darkly compelling idea.
 

Spock

Member
Oct 27, 2017
769
Still need to read the article but from the discussion it seems like we're talking about potentially higher orders of physics that are unknown to us, but those higher order physics may potentially be effecting our known lower order physics. (Honestly sounds like this is a given.)

An advanced or differing form of civilization could be aware of those higher order physics and operating with awareness of those principles.

Those physics we don't know, but another civilization may know could have a differing observational relationship in regards to cause and effect.

What I mean by that is, what they would be perceiving as an effect could potentially be what we are perceiving as cause, simply because we don't yet grasp those higher orders of physics.

By understanding differing or higher order cause and effect relationships it could sure look like they are working with differing physics, etc.

Knowing when, where and how certain principles apply and what their cause and effect relationship to reality might be, could allow them to navigate existence in different ways (whatever that might mean).

I'm not saying this is the case but it's definitely interesting to ponder.
 
Last edited:

Spock

Member
Oct 27, 2017
769
giving an extreme amount of benefit of the doubt, the laws of physics do change quite dramatically depending on what scale you exist at, a inteligent being that lives at nanoscale would experience physics very differently from us, probably resulting in the laws of physics they come up with containing elements that we would never have discovered at our scale.

now as for whether you count that as "different" laws of physics or just different parts of the same laws however...

This would also be another way to consider things that I'd add to my post above. Scale at which laws are applied does it indeed matter, I was thinking more macro but it's equally justified to the micro.
 

hobblygobbly

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,666
NORDFRIESLAND, DEUTSCHLAND
I'm sure you know better than a professor in astrophysics.
i actually studied computer science and astronomy lol and worked at a telescope array for 4 years for the ESA. there's plenty of dumbfuck professors out there
I don't think you're disagreeing with the author.

The author is suggesting laws of physics exist but we might not be able to perceive some of them. That doesn't mean they're not having an effect on us.

I also don't think that's a new idea, or probably one many people disagree with - including yourself, by your comments.

Honestly the whole article is a headline wrapped up as a What If that turns out to be a very old idea.
fair point
 
Last edited:

killerrin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,250
Toronto
Given enough energy, time and mass you can do a lot of shit that defies conventional laws of physics. A true Type 5 Civilization would literally be equivelent to gods. There would be zero difference.
 

Akira86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,612
could they change reality i guess is the actual question? since physics is our understanding of reality, if they had a different understanding that was more advanced and accurate and also conflicted with our physics we wouldn't say "Their physics is wrong!"

well we might, but we'd probably realize we were missing data and context, and would expand our physics to adapt.

human laws of physics might be our best shot, but someone more advanced may know better.
 

ResetSoul

Banned
Jul 29, 2021
1,366
If you're able to use some sort of technology to alter the laws of physics then you just didn't completely understand that law in the first place.
 

GungHo

Member
Nov 27, 2017
6,193
No. It would just mean we need to rethink our law. Physics is a fundamental science, and the tent just gets bigger.
 

Unaha-Closp

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,746
Scotland
Change them? I doubt that. Manipulate them to achieve their desired result? Sure. We might think the atom is one thing, and we think we can do this this and this to it. They might know more and know more things to do them. If you could change physics at the fundamental level you would be changing the Universe in which you exist and the physics of that Universe are what you are changing all the while being inside....it just seems tricky :D
 
Feb 9, 2018
2,661
How? What plausible mechanism could change, say, E=mc² to E=m²c or E=mc³? How would someone turn off gravity otherwise alter how powerful it as as a fundamental force? Assuming other universes exist (and that's not even a given) there could be ones where physical constants differ in how they would be quantified, or how the fundamental forces differ in strength. But, despite some protestations to the contrary, to the best of our knowledge the universe isn't some computer program where we can just hack into it and change the parameters, putting in cheat codes for reality itself. As far as we know, the physical constants are and have always been constant, at least to such a high degree that any variation would have no effect on how matter and energy work anywhere or anytime in the universe, and there's no known way to alter them. The "rules" of our universe simply are.

Even if you could, it would fundamentally alter how matter, energy, gravitation, etc., work. It could unravel reality as we know it. Chemistry would operate differently. Particles would have different properties, and might not even be able to exist, meaning that atoms would stop functioning, at least in any way we'd understand them. Certainly life as we know it would not exist without the laws of physics in our universe being what they are. And the technology used to alter them would stop working once they changed the parameters of reality.
 

thediamondage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,469
If you believe in infinite universes (multiverse) then it would simply be shifting yourself to an alternate universe where the laws you want are extant. Infinite is a crazy idea, literally anything you can imagine is out there, out of touch for us but who knows for someone else. A bigger problem is would you even be able to survive or exist in such a universe.
 

Jakenbakin

"This guy are sick" and Corrupted by Vengeance
Member
Jun 17, 2018
11,953
You can't go faster than the speed of light!
Professor Hubert Farnsworth : Of course not. That's why scientists increased the speed of light in 2208.