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SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,261
São Paulo - Brazil
This might feel a little random take but bear with me for a second:

First, there is one assumptions that'll make here which in necessarily for my reasoning: the next Mass Effect will be an open world game. It seems that all AAA RPGs now needs to be open world, so I wll be really surprised if either the next DA or the next Mass Effect are not.

And the thing is, with an open world design the cover oriented gameplay of ME2 and ME3 don't work that well because they rely on, well, cover. And with an open world design you need a combat system that can work at any time, with or without cover.

For all Andromeda's shortcomings, it was very aware of that, and it tackled this challenged with some success, but also by an avenue that made its gameplay lesser when compared to the two previous titles. In Andromeda it was about dealing damage to the enemies. There was little in the way of strategy or careful aiming, you just gotta maximize raw damage output. I believe the moment where you play or other sibling really highlights the shortcomings of this approach:




This is the very definition of bullet spongy enemies.

Even dealing headshots, your damage output is minimal, and they often don't react at all. The play have no option but to turtle and slowly damage the enemies, as if he tries to be any more aggresive they'll quickly die (on insanity). I dont mean to say this is representative of Andromeda's gameplay, it's not, but it's a great way to highlight its problems. They are sitll there when you have all your weapons and powers, they are just better hidden.

Now take Control (!):




Just as with Andromeda's video, this isn't representative of the game gameplay, but just a small comparison of what it would like to face the most common enemies with a basic weapon. They react much more and die much quicker, moreover, their aim is quite flawed if you're moving, which allows Jesse to move around and have much more freedom in combat encounters.

And this is a much better approach. And one that could work extremely well in a Mass Effect open world game. Allowing the players to move more freely and having better and more reactive enemies that don't take 20 seconds to kill (you can still have those, but not every single one) would be a major step up. Every weapon should be useful, and the game shouldn't be balanced around raw damage. Then you have all the ME powers that can fit this take extremely well. Indeed, if you compare the two games there are a few powers that have similar functions (biotic barrier and control own barrier power, for example). But while in Control that power is extremely useful, in Andromeda it's much less so, because you still have to rely to much on cover as enemies kill you too fast.

Also levitate is so much better than any jetpack I've ever seen in any game.
 

Bran

Member
Oct 25, 2017
340
It's not a random take—I felt the same way! I always replay the original Mass Effect as a shotgun Adept, and going through Control reminded me so much of that but better.
 

Starlatine

533.489 paid youtubers cant be wrong
Member
Oct 28, 2017
30,364
You're picking highest difficulty to complain about bullet sponges? really? Is every game in the world - including the previous mass effects AND control - plagued by it too?

Andromeda combat is more than fine. This idea that there was no space for strategies is wrong. If they take anything from it (which i doubt, they want to distance themselves from it by several mass relays if they can), it should be the combat. I would hardly call Control's combat a golden standard to follow either. Basically i disagree with every word you used in this thread, dear lord.
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,912
Canada
I agree whole-heartedly. The templates for good infinite ammo implementation, non-cover-based shooting, movement, and biotics are right there.

Honestly, I wouldn't be upset if they cribbed a little from Control story-wise, too. Give me something more inexplicable than the Reapers.
 

Asriel

Member
Dec 7, 2017
2,441
Eh, Mass Effect Andromeda combat was pretty phenomenal overall. If it ain't broke . . .
 

Lightus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,135
I wouldn't mind some things carrying over but I'll be the odd person out and say I generally didn't like Control's combat. The powers were a lot of fun but I felt like I got one shot constantly. I also felt like I was often running low on energy, which created moments were I would just have to hide until it refilled. Definitely put a damper on the flow of combat.

Overall I'd like for the next Mass Effect to be similar to Andromeda just with more control over your companions.
 
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SofNascimento

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,261
São Paulo - Brazil
It's not a random take—I felt the same way! I always replay the original Mass Effect as a shotgun Adept, and going through Control reminded me so much of that but better.

I'm a big critic of ME's combat, but in many wais it's more "open world friendly" than both ME2's and ME3's. And in that sense more similar to Control's. One curious consequence of this is that there is no combat encounter in the other two games in the trilogy that begin right after a dialogue with Shepard face to face with their enemies. And the reason is that those games mostly demand the use of cover. While in ME1 there are plenty of those. Indeed, there are some powers in ME1 that positively support a more mobile approach to the fights, like Immunity.

I think overall its combat is quite weak, but it doesn't mean there aren't things to learn from it.

You're picking highest difficulty to complain about bullet sponges? really? Is every game in the world - including the previous mass effects AND control - plagued by it too?

Andromeda combat is more than fine. This idea that there was no space for strategies is wrong. If they take anything from it (which i doubt, they want to distance themselves from it by several mass relays if they can), it should be the combat. I would hardly call Control's combat a golden standard to follow either. Basically i disagree with every word you used in this thread, dear lord.

This is ME2 on insanity:




Bullet spongy is not a factor of difficulty, but of design. An easier difficulty would certainly make it less noticiable, but it would still be there. And in both ME2 and ME3 and Control there were enemies that would take a lot of bullets to take down, but they were elite ones, not the ordinary grunt. Moreover, in Control especifically, they would be much more reactive, which I believe is what matters. "Bullet spongeness" is not about taking too much damage to die, is about not being reactive to being hit.
 

AuthenticM

Son Altesse Sérénissime
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
30,001
I agree with you. ME4 needs to ditch the cover-shooter design and go in the direction of giving the player a lot of freedom in how to approach combat encounters.

I haven't played Andromeda, but I am glad to hear that it went in this direction. Hopefully the next game tskes it further
 

Uzuzu

Member
Nov 18, 2017
530
I played andromeda and control this year and thought andromeda's gameplay was much better than control's (everything else was worse tho)
 
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SofNascimento

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,261
São Paulo - Brazil
I'm fairly sure it is yeah
Enemy reactivity is another different issue

Don't change the discussion to the definition of a term. For me it's always been about enemies that take to long to die and don't show any or little reaction to being shot. Hence, absorbing bullets like a sponge. Enemies in Andromeda are not entirely deprived of reaction, and depending on your damage output (and difficulty) it will be more or less noticiable, but overall they trasnlate being hit very badly.
 

Starlatine

533.489 paid youtubers cant be wrong
Member
Oct 28, 2017
30,364
Don't change the discussion to the definition of a term. For me it's always has been about enemies that take to long to die and don't show any or little reaction to being shot. Hence, absorbing bullets like a sponge. Enemies in Andromeda are not entirely deprived of reaction, and depending on your damage output (and difficulty) it will be more or less noticiable, but overall they trasnlate being hit very badly.

?
If you think "bullet sponges" is about shooting spongebob and complain about it, don't think its weird when others are not on your same trip

You're using footage of the highest difficulty level of Andromeda to complain about enemies being "spongey" when thats something that happens in pretty much every "superhard" mode in most games. It's not a reasonable comparison.
 
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SofNascimento

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,261
São Paulo - Brazil
?
If you think "bullet sponges" is about shooting spongebob and complain about it, don't think its weird when others are not on your same trip

You're using footage of the highest difficulty level of Andromeda to complain about enemies being "spongey" when thats something that happens in pretty much every "superhard" mode in most games. It's not a reasonable comparison.

The definition is not important. You already know what I meant by its use.

Also, I literally showed a video of ME2 in the same difficulty with enemies that take way less damage to take down (in similar situations mind you, where you have restrictive use of weapons and abilitie) and are more reactive and interesting. Again to compare both with ME2 and ME3 on insanity:






Not bullet sponge enemies at all. Control is the same, although it has a fixed difficulty.

When games make enemies take too long to die on harder difficulties that's generally a problem, and a bad way to enhance difficulty. So it might happen in a lot of game, but in many good ones.
 

AbsoluteZ3R0

Member
Feb 5, 2019
885
Andromeda combat started well but got boring once you figure out a combo that works for all enemy. They let you have multiple class configuration to experiment but there is point to switch between them because one combo works on all enemies. This pretty much takes away all the strategy and variety in encounters. I also found enemy placement in dungeons to be terrible. I am usually find with bullet sponge but when you just keep throwing bullet spong elite one after another it gets tiring.
 

Zephy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,161
Personally I hope they will keep the cover mechanics as a viable option, but go all out on the mobility. Stuff like the Vanguard's Charge and Andromeda's dash, but more crazy. I would very much enjoy if they added in Anthem's flying mechanic as well, which could complement the mobility aspect nicely. It could easily fit the lore and allow for some interesting level design.

Another interesting direction they could go is to work on melee combat. The mass effect barriers and other lore stuff could easily justify making close quarter combat a viable option.
 

zombiejames

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,917
As much as loved Control, I disagree. I want Mass Effect to go back to being an RPG more than anything.
 

j3d1j4m13

Member
Feb 24, 2019
577
Andromedas combat is a fine foundation but the next ME definitely needs to give companion control back. Only being able to tell companions where to move is less than ideal.
 
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SofNascimento

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,261
São Paulo - Brazil
I agree with you. ME4 needs to ditch the cover-shooter design and go in the direction of giving the player a lot of freedom in how to approach combat encounters.

I haven't played Andromeda, but I am glad to hear that it went in this direction. Hopefully the next game tskes it further
Personally I hope they will keep the cover mechanics as a viable option, but go all out on the mobility. Stuff like the Vanguard's Charge and Andromeda's dash, but more crazy. I would very much enjoy if they added in Anthem's flying mechanic as well, which could complement the mobility aspect nicely. It could easily fit the lore and allow for some interesting level design.

Another interesting direction they could go is to work on melee combat. The mass effect barriers and other lore stuff could easily justify making close quarter combat a viable option.

I didn't mean to imply absolutely no cover. Although Control doesn't have a dedicated cover mechanic, sometimes you have to tack a step back and put some protection between Jesse and her enemies. I think the idea is to integrate cover and mobility more. That's what Andromeda tried, but I think Tomb Raider did a much better job with that approach. But it wouldn't work if enemies took as much damage to die as in Andromeda.

As much as loved Control, I disagree. I want Mass Effect to go back to being an RPG more than anything.

That has little to do with combat. The next Mass Effect will most certainly be a shooter, so it must try to play well as a shooter. That doesn't make any less of a RPG by itself though.
 

ThreepQuest64

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
5,735
Germany
Combat was almost the best part of Andromeda. Doesn't mean it can't be improved, though. Control is among the god-tier combat of TPS because it offers you well-known cover protection but offers many options to stay alive when you choose to not stay in cover -- something that made Quantum Breaks combat so much fun either. If I'm not playing a hardcore military inspired shooter I want to RUN. RUN and GUN! This is why I enjoy the Uncharted games much more on easy difficulty, because your only option to stay alive whole not behind cover is taking less damage/having more HP.

Control gives you options to dash, to put up a mobile shield, to attack enemies while jumping, running, levitating... either with guns or throwing objects on them. You regenerate health not by avoiding damage and sitting boringly behind cover but by RUNNING where dead enemies drop health bits. If you run out of ammo you don't need to idle, either. You use your powers, throw objects, woosh around, levitate away while your ammo recovers. If your psy energy recovers, use your gun!

If everything goes downhill and you run out of everything, you can still duck and take cover!

Enemies are reactive as much as the environment. It's almost ridiculous how this games gets it so right while others, with more budget, won't.

With all that in mind, Andromeda isn't that bad at all, and use lots of the things I've mentioned, but it could still be a bit smoother, feel snappier and enemies as the environment could be more reactive (this applies to soooo many games, though).

Also, it doesn't matter if it's an RPG or not: if you're going to use a mechanic/feature (shooter) it better be good. Being an RPG is no excuse for poor gunplay if that's your main take on how to solve combat (I see you, Fallout 3 and New Vegas).
 
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SofNascimento

SofNascimento

cursed
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Oct 28, 2017
21,261
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Combat was almost the best part of Andromeda. Doesn't mean it can't be improved, though. Control is among the god-tier combat of TPS because it offers you well-known cover protection but offers many options to stay alive when you choose to not stay in cover -- something that made Quantum Breaks combat so much fun either. If I'm not playing a hardcore military inspired shooter I want to RUN. RUN and GUN! This is why I enjoy the Uncharted games much more on easy difficulty, because your only option to stay alive whole not behind cover is taking less damage/having more HP.

Control gives you options to dash, to put up a mobile shield, to attack enemies while jumping, running, levitating... either with guns or throwing objects on them. You regenerate health not by avoiding damage and sitting boringly behind cover but by RUNNING where dead enemies drop health bits. If you run out of ammo you don't need to idle, either. You use your powers, throw objects, woosh around, levitate away while your ammo recovers. If your psy energy recovers, use your gun!

If everything goes downhill and you run out of everything, you can still duck and take cover!

Enemies are reactive as much as the environment. It's almost ridiculous how this games gets it so right while others, with more budget, won't.

With all that in mind, Andromeda isn't that bad at all, and use lots of the things I've mentioned, but it could still be a bit smoother, feel snappier and enemies as the environment could be more reactive (this applies to soooo many games, though).

This is why:

latest

I'm convinced Control managed to put into practice everything Remedy learned in all the shooters they developed. I think in terms of resources they had relatively little invested into the gunplay, but they knew exactly where to put them. They knew that it would not matter to have all that freedom if enemies behave like a statue when you shoot them. Even the most elite enemies show major reaction to being shot at (or when you throw forklifters at them for that matter).

And I think Andromeda combat is good, and in some moments very good. And in one or two even great (like in some architect fights). But also it has this major weakness that I highlight in the op.
 

Jmdajr

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,534
Man. I hate this game (Control). But I keep playing it!
I am determined to finish it.
 

Enduin

You look 40
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Oct 25, 2017
11,469
New York
Anything less than full squad controls like ME1-3 will be a major disappointment for me.

Andromeda was fun only in so far as Ryder controlled well and let you become super OP, but that same flexibility of movement and of character build dramatically harmed the rest of the combat experience for me. There was pretty much zero squad cohesion thanks to the terrible AI and loss of direct squad controls. The extreme freedom of movement coupled with the open world design basically removed any sense of battle lines between you and enemies. Most encounters just became an orgy of bodies all over the map shooting at one another without any real structure. And the lack of distinct classes and independent cooldowns made Ryder supremely OP. Fun to mess around with sure, but again just made squadmates that much more irrelevant when Ryder alone could setup and trigger any power combo they pleased without much effort. And yeah while the series always has had some issues with bullet sponges, especially on higher difficulties, Andromeda was in a whole other galaxy when it came to that.

ME2/3 relied much too heavily on cover and shoot gameplay without question. ME3 did make some decent improvements to both Shepard's movement controls and enemy designs to make more aggressive playstyles and movement more viable and necessary, but duck and cover was the go to more like than not. ME1 for all its issues with gameplay was a lot more aggressive and less reliant on sitting in cover. It just lacked a lot in the movement control department and dice roll shooting. Enemies were very aggressive, even if stupidly so, but it forced you to be quick on your feet and really move around the environment, as much as the game allowed. A Krogan charging you with a shotgun in ME1 was the scariest fucking thing ever and sitting behind cover won't save you.

I love Control a lot but Jesse is on her own, there's no squad support element there. It's just her taking on hoards. Her agility and abilities are a ton of fun, but again combat just becomes this orgy of chaos without any battle lines. That's fine for some occasions, but to deliver proper squad mechanics and synergy you need a good deal more structure to your combat encounters. That means well designed locations, battle lines, appropriate enemy types of vary abilities and habits, as well as character controls that in part limit your ability to dart all over the map with ease and force you and your team to work together to gain ground.

I'm cool if they want to and can find a way to keep some aspect of the dash and jump jet from Andromeda in the next ME, but I think it needs to be toned down a lot. I just don't see how they can deliver good tactical squad based combat if they don't. I'm all for faster paced combat and more mobility so long as directing and coordinating with your squadmates remains the central aspect and key to success.
 
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SofNascimento

SofNascimento

cursed
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Oct 28, 2017
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Anything less than full squad controls like ME1-3 will be a major disappointment for me.

Andromeda was fun only in so far as Ryder controlled well and let you become super OP, but that same flexibility of movement and of character build dramatically harmed the rest of the combat experience for me. There was pretty much zero squad cohesion thanks to the terrible AI and loss of direct squad controls. The extreme freedom of movement coupled with the open world design basically removed any sense of battle lines between you and enemies. Most encounters just became an orgy of bodies all over the map shooting at one another without any real structure. And the lack of distinct classes and independent cooldowns made Ryder supremely OP. Fun to mess around with sure, but again just made squadmates that much more irrelevant when Ryder alone could setup and trigger any power combo they pleased without much effort. And yeah while the series always has had some issues with bullet sponges, especially on higher difficulties, Andromeda was in a whole other galaxy when it came to that.

ME2/3 relied much too heavily on cover and shoot gameplay without question. ME3 did make some decent improvements to both Shepard's movement controls and enemy designs to make more aggressive playstyles and movement more viable and necessary, but duck and cover was the go to more like than not. ME1 for all its issues with gameplay was a lot more aggressive and less reliant on sitting in cover. It just lacked a lot in the movement control department and dice roll shooting. Enemies were very aggressive, even if stupidly so, but it forced you to be quick on your feet and really move around the environment, as much as the game allowed. A Krogan charging you with a shotgun in ME1 was the scariest fucking thing ever and sitting behind cover won't save you.

I love Control a lot but Jesse is on her own, there's no squad support element there. It's just her taking on hoards. Her agility and abilities are a ton of fun, but again combat just becomes this orgy of chaos without any battle lines. That's fine for some occasions, but to deliver proper squad mechanics and synergy you need a good deal more structure to your combat encounters. That means well designed locations, battle lines, appropriate enemy types of vary abilities and habits, as well as character controls that in part limit your ability to dart all over the map with ease and force you and your team to work together to gain ground.

I'm cool if they want to and can find a way to keep some aspect of the dash and jump jet from Andromeda in the next ME, but I think it needs to be toned down a lot. I just don't see how they can deliver good tactical squad based combat if they don't. I'm all for faster paced combat and more mobility so long as directing and coordinating with your squadmates remains the central aspect and key to success.

This is an interesting reply.

I thought about squadmates when writing the op because I fully agree with you, Andromeda handle of squadmates was a massive step back, but I thought it wouldn't add much to the argument.

But indeed, having squadmates being integral to combat is a must for Mass Effect games, and reading your post I started to wonder how much an open world design makes it more difficulty to accomplish. You mentioned "battle lines", and one of the things you need to achieve that is a sense of direction. And generally in open worlds game that's gone. It's much easier to accomplish such thing in a linear game.
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,469
New York
This is an interesting reply.

I thought about squadmates when writing the op because I fully agree with you, Andromeda handle of squadmates was a massive step back, but I thought it wouldn't add much to the argument.

But indeed, having squadmates being integral to combat is a must for Mass Effect games, and reading your post I started to wonder how much an open world design makes it more difficulty to accomplish. You mentioned "battle lines", and one of the things you need to achieve that is a sense of direction. And generally in open worlds game that's gone. It's much easier to accomplish such thing in a linear game.
Yup, just think back and look at the level design in 2/3. They were largely narrow corridor after narrow corridor of one type or another and maybe the odd room here and there. You were always moving forward going from point A to point B. You only rarely had larger more open areas to fight in, but even then it usually was designed in such a way that you moved from the edge towards the center or from one side to another. There were always pretty clear battle lines and you knew which side you were on and where you needed to go.

But Andromeda you were out in the open world where you might have some pre-fab outpost or collection of vehicles or a drop ship to break up the open space but that was it. The most structured levels were often just big boxes. Either there were some buildings around or structures of some kind or you were inside a base or ship with a couple of floors and some random objects, but otherwise it was just a big square arena for you to zip around in. It was beyond easy for you to have enemies all around you and everyone to just be mixed up and spread all over. The objective was to just wipe out everyone around you rather than pushing forward to a specific location. Which could be really tedious as enemies could just find themselves super far from you or in really random locations. Remnant bases were the most structured and traditional style levels and beyond some really spongy enemies were the most enjoyable combat encounters in the game, even if they got super repetitive.

Honestly if there was a recent game I would point to that I would want ME to really take some cues from and emulate, at least in terms level design and very broad strokes gameplay/controls, it would be TLoU2. Ellie/Abbie both controlled great and could haul ass when needed and vault obstacles. You had large and varied, but still focused, levels that emphasized both cover and movement while also feeling mostly organic and not artificial with their cover options. The major disparity is that TLoU is so stealth focused while ME is not. But adding a little stealth to ME would be A-OK in my book, less so actually being able to stealth a level and not get seen, but more so more advanced AI that you could break line of sight with and realistically flank and have them react to losing contact. Dropping back and regrouping, taking more defensive positions. Being able to direct and use squadmates to draw fire and what not. Which you could kind of do in ME1-3, but just more advanced and varied options.

I really do not want another open world ME. Give me really well developed and handcrafted linear levels, with then set piece vehicle sections and some larger open sections that are design with a specific purpose and experience in mind. I don't think Andromeda style massive levels work at all. It's just too nebulous an experience that works against the core squadbased mechanics and just lacks the overall necessary structure and focus that makes ME gameplay overall worthwhile. Beyond just the combat it's way too much time wasted between combat or dialogue encounters. ME1's planet exploration worked because the planets were so sparse and you had like 4-5 objectives total on the entire big map. It was a very focused and specific experience that stood apart from the rest of the game which was fighting and talking to people in these very deliberate linear levels and locations. It would be cool if that could all work together, but I just don't think it can.
 
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SofNascimento

SofNascimento

cursed
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Oct 28, 2017
21,261
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Yup, just think back and look at the level design in 2/3. They were largely narrow corridor after narrow corridor of one type or another and maybe the odd room here and there. You were always moving forward going from point A to point B. You only rarely had larger more open areas to fight in, but even then it usually was designed in such a way that you moved from the edge towards the center or from one side to another. There were always pretty clear battle lines and you knew which side you were on and where you needed to go.

But Andromeda you were out in the open world where you might have some pre-fab outpost or collection of vehicles or a drop ship to break up the open space but that was it. The most structured levels were often just big boxes. Either there were some buildings around or structures of some kind or you were inside a base or ship with a couple of floors and some random objects, but otherwise it was just a big square arena for you to zip around in. It was beyond easy for you to have enemies all around you and everyone to just be mixed up and spread all over. The objective was to just wipe out everyone around you rather than pushing forward to a specific location. Which could be really tedious as enemies could just find themselves super far from you or in really random locations. Remnant bases were the most structured and traditional style levels and beyond some really spongy enemies were the most enjoyable combat encounters in the game, even if they got super repetitive.

Honestly if there was a recent game I would point to that I would want ME to really take some cues from and emulate, at least in terms level design and very broad strokes gameplay/controls, it would be TLoU2. Ellie/Abbie both controlled great and could haul ass when needed and vault obstacles. You had large and varied, but still focused, levels that emphasized both cover and movement while also feeling mostly organic and not artificial with their cover options. The major disparity is that TLoU is so stealth focused while ME is not. But adding a little stealth to ME would be A-OK in my book, less so actually being able to stealth a level and not get seen, but more so more advanced AI that you could break line of sight with and realistically flank and have them react to losing contact. Dropping back and regrouping, taking more defensive positions. Being able to direct and use squadmates to draw fire and what not. Which you could kind of do in ME1-3, but just more advanced and varied options.

I really do not want another open world ME. Give me really well developed and handcrafted linear levels, with then set piece vehicle sections and some larger open sections that are design with a specific purpose and experience in mind. I don't think Andromeda style massive levels work at all. It's just too nebulous an experience that works against the core squadbased mechanics and just lacks the overall necessary structure and focus that makes ME gameplay overall worthwhile. Beyond just the combat it's way too much time wasted between combat or dialogue encounters. ME1's planet exploration worked because the planets were so sparse and you had like 4-5 objectives total on the entire big map. It was a very focused and specific experience that stood apart from the rest of the game which was fighting and talking to people in these very deliberate linear levels and locations. It would be cool if that could all work together, but I just don't think it can.

I very much agree. I haven't played TLoU2 but I remember thinking about what the next Mass Effect could do (I mean in the time between ME3 and Andromeda) and one of the games I had in mind as a template was Splinter Cell: Blacklist. Which I think has a lof of that focused but open arenas to fight in, and Sam Fisher had superb mobility. But then, he was always alone...

Personally I feel both Bioware attemps at open world, DAI and Andromed weren't a success. I mean, Inquisition is a very good game but it's weakest apsects have to do with its open world design, while Andromeda is just not a good game at all. At the time, I don't think an open world design would immediately scream failure.

But if I got to choose, a more focused and linear experience would be my pick for the next ME. And if you're going to be more open world, look at KoTOR, no other RPGs.
 

BrassDragon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,154
The Netherlands
In Control you're basically a superhero or godlike mutant and I'd prefer my Mass Effect hero to have more parity with the enemies. It bugged me in Andromeda that I was the only one with certain weapon platforms, AI-enhanced perception and supermobility. Saren was an interesting Mass Effect villain because he seemed like Shepard's equal (or in the first half of the game, at a power level Shepard could aspire to.)

Players and BioWare love their power fantasies though so it'll probably end up more akin to Control/Anthem than Splinter Cell.
 

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,467
In Control you're basically a superhero or godlike mutant and I'd prefer my Mass Effect hero to have more parity with the enemies. It bugged me in Andromeda that I was the only one with certain weapon platforms, AI-enhanced perception and supermobility. Saren was an interesting Mass Effect villain because he seemed like Shepard's equal (or in the first half of the game, at a power level Shepard could aspire to.)

Players and BioWare love their power fantasies though so it'll probably end up more akin to Control/Anthem than Splinter Cell.

This for me. In Control if your mechanical skill is there you can just rush everything and win. It doesn't matter what the odds are. It feels as though, in Mass Effect, you have to make more strategic decisions. Your positioning matters more, and whatnot.
 

sn00zer

Member
Feb 28, 2018
6,060
I think I would actually like something akin to FF7 Remake, where youre ATB fills for each character to use their powers, while your general attack is shooting.
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,469
New York
Imagine zero-g fights where you're flying around and shit and thee's no up or down
I would love for some Dead Space like vacuum of space, zero g type fights. But not so much flying around as much as like jump from place to place having to reorient ourselves and keep moving to find cover, dodge attacks and get the advantage on enemy's positions.

Kind of disappointing after the really cool intro to ME2 with the half destroyed Normandy, no gravity and dead silence that we never got any other event like that, especially combat. Least that I can remember.
 

Agraavan

Member
Dec 20, 2019
29
I got out of Control thinking that Naughty Dog should just improve upon it to make the Savage Starlight game (let me dream, ok?), so I think it makes sense.