ContraPoints | Canceling

[Griffith]

Regardless of how you may feel about Natalie or some of the things people may have found hurtful it is undeniable that a lot of work was put into addressing said criticism and the impact of it both on communities and individuals.

Often enough, when other people do, or say, hurtful things then try to quickly apologize for doing them they are criticized for not being sincere enough or for not understanding what they should be sorry about, and yet some people here are dismissing her video specifically because she tries to understand and go through most facets of the criticism she is facing. While she does not, in fact, apologize for most of the things she has done, I think she makes a decent case for why said apologies may not be entirely necessary, in some cases, or why the reaction to those offences may be overblown, at least in her view.

The video is about Canceling and it both tackles specific examples of how communities operate and both the impact it has on the individuals on the receiving end of it. It doesn't look away from her own mistakes, it looks at them straight on and it doesn't look away from some of the effects of being "canceled" and shows some of the inherent effects of it.

She opened a lot of windows to the uncomfortable reality of being attacked by a mass group of people and pointed out the dangers that people, in similar situations to hers, are exposed to. It's painful and hurtful both to her and those around her. That doesn't dismiss or excuse whatever mistakes she may have done or whatever hurtful thing she may have said, but the type of reaction and, in my opinion, vitriolic abuse she has been exposed to isn't something we should endorse.

I defend social justice, but the tools of social justice are often anti-social and unjust, because they try to divide and isolate individuals and, because they shift the power dynamic of an individual with some degree of influence to a barrage of hundreds or thousands of messages built to try to ruin an individual's career. While I support criticism of individuals who may have made mistakes, I don't support those tools.

Just as we expect public figures to take responsibility for their words and be mindful of their power to influence others, I think we should also understand the dangers of mobbing an individual and the effect that may have on their lives and the lives around them so we can use social media more responsibly and as a tool, rather than a bludgeoning instrument.

 

[Kyuuji]

As we witnessed it's sadly a continuous occurrence in these threads, even after the whole situation with the mods and admins of the site and the change in how these threads are supposed to be moderated we still see a lot of dismissive posts. It's why I truly thank members like you Kyuuji, excelsiorlef and others who demonstrate incredible patience and a willingness to have your voices heard. Personally just reading it is immensely tiring and stressful, I can't imagine how it is for you to have to respond to stuff like that.

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Definitely a recurrence lol. As Juna mentions above if you flit back through the pages you'll see a lot of mod action right back to the mod post but I'm reading it as being more despite it all we still find ourselves with those posts persisting - which, well, people gonna people to that extent (seeing the new post come in I see this is what you were referencing). Sucks, but the support is there and seeing the faces that have been plaguing threads like it the past few months actually get a slap makes it much easier to keep engaged.

 

[Kyuuji]

That doesn't dismiss or excuse whatever mistakes she may have done or whatever hurtful thing she may have done, but the type of reaction and, in my opinion, vitriolic abuse she has been exposed to isn't something we should endorse.

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Love this perpetual need to act like anyone is endorsing harrassment in the thread.

 

[Griffith]

Love this perpetual need to act like anyone is endorsing harrassment in the thread.

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If that behavior wasn't condoned, or ignored, as much as it is, I wouldn't have felt the need to make that response.

 

[Kyuuji]

If that behavior wasn't condoned or ignored, as much as it is, I wouldn't have felt the need to make that response.

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Where has it been condoned or ignored?

People have been denouncing harassment of her in almost every thread about these issues that I can think of - not least because people keep conflating people posting here with it. I don't think people need to explicitly say "harassment is bad" every time they wish to criticise her in threads.

Kind of ironic to speak of ignoring things though, when you sweep in to dismiss concerns with a long post that's been answered repeatedly in each point through the thread, including this neat little gem.

That doesn't dismiss or excuse whatever mistakes she may have done or whatever hurtful thing she may have said, but the type of reaction and, in my opinion, vitriolic abuse she has been exposed to isn't something we should endorse.

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[Juna]

Oh no I'm not blaming it necessarily on the mod team, what I meant is that even with the mods changing the way they moderate these threads, even with warnings being given to not be dismissive we still sadly have people coming in and acting in a dismissive way.

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Got you. Just wanted to make sure that people don't miss it. Too bad people don't take the hint. Maybe someday, but I'm not holding my breath.

Often enough, when other people do, or say, hurtful things then try to quickly apologize for doing them they are criticized for not being sincere enough or for not understanding what they should be sorry about, and yet some people here are dismissing her video specifically because she tries to understand and go through most facets of the criticism she is facing. While she does not, in fact, apologize for most of the things she has done, I think she makes a decent case for why said apologies may not be entirely necessary, in some cases, or why the reaction to those offences may be overblown, at least in her view.

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"Be happy that she didn't make a quick insincere apology. She decided after long deliberation that no apology was needed."
That's certainly a take. I'm sure all the people who got hurt in this process will be so glad to know that the dismissal of their feelings was sincere and well argued. You know, this might be the most vicious condemnation of Natalie in the whole thread.

 

[Top NHST Product]

Since it keeps getting brought I wanted to ask for the people that keep raising it. If the fair criticisms made by NB, trans and other members in here can be construed as harassment, is it possible to criticize any public figure without it being harassment to you?

 

[Griffith]

Where has it been condoned or ignored?

People have been denouncing harassment of her in almost every thread about these issues that I can think of - not least because people keep conflating people posting here with it. I don't think people need to explicitly say "harassment is bad" every time they wish to criticise her in threads.

Kind of ironic when you sweep in to dismiss concerns with a post that's been answered repeatedly in the thread

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The problem is that we're dealing with people that operate in anonymity and it's very hard from an outside perspective to be aware of how much vitriol an individual may receive. So any messages that are against people being vitriolic have to be made in a broad reaching manner, they can't be individually targeted specifically I doubt most, if any, harassers would step forward and admit to it.

The intent is not to state everyone in this thread does this. The intent is for it to be something that everyone, hopefully including harassers, is aware of.

Lastly, my use of word "may" there is because not all of the mistakes she made are equally hurtful. I do think she said some hurtful things, I think some other things that she was criticized from were either a bit misconstrued or at least overblown, but this is just my opinion and not an attempt to dismiss that some people may find certain words and thoughts more hurtful than others but I think it's important to not generalize any and all criticism laid against her as being equally valid just because some of it was.

 

[Kyuuji]

The problem is that we're dealing with people that operate in anonymity and it's very hard from an outside perspective to be aware of how much vitriol an individual may receive. So any messages that are against people being vitriolic have to be made in a broad reaching manner, they can't be individually targeted specifically I doubt most, if any, harassers would step forward and admit to it.

The intent is not to state everyone in this thread does this. The intent is for it to be something that everyone, hopefully including harassers, is aware of.

Lastly, my use of word "may" there is because not all of the mistakes she made are equally hurtful. I do think she said some hurtful things, I think some other things that she was criticized from were either a bit misconstrued or at least overblown, but this is just my opinion and not an attempt to dismiss that some people may find certain words and thoughts more hurtful than others but I think it's important to not generalize any and all criticism laid against her as being equally valid just because some of it was.

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Sorry but, again, where has harassment of Natalie been condoned or ignored by people here?
That is the impetus with which you claim to have made the post.

 

[Griffith]

Sorry but, again, where has harassment of Natalie been condoned or ignored by people here?
That is the impetus with which you claim to have made the post.

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That is not what I was implying or meant.

I think I either misspoke or my intent was not put forward clearly enough. I explained what my intent was in the previous response. If you feel like I'm targeting anyone specifically in this thread that wasn't the intent and at this point I think it's not contributing to this discussion. I wasn't and am not looking for an escape goat. I was simply trying to draw attention to an issue I find very concerning and don't often see it being discussed. Since this is one of the few videos that tackles it in an informed manner, I brought it up.

Also it's slightly ironic that I argue against targeted harassment, implying that i don't condone it, and you insist that I target someone specific. It misses the point of what I'm trying to defend.

I'm not trying to attack anyone, I just want more people to be aware of the consequences of it. That's all.

 

[Kyuuji]

That is not what I was implying or meant.

I think I either misspoke or my intent was not put forward clearly enough. I explained what my intent was in the previous response. If you feel like I'm targeting anyone specifically in this thread that wasn't the intent and at this point I think it's not contributing to this discussion. I wasn't and am not looking for an escape goat. I was simply trying to draw attention to an issue I find very concerning and don't often see it being discussed. Since this is one of the few videos that tackles it in an informed manner, I brought it up.

Also it's slightly ironic that I argue against targeted harassment, implying that i don't condone it, and you insist that I target someone specific. It misses the point of what I'm trying to defend.

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That is what you wrote though:

Love this perpetual need to act like anyone is endorsing harrassment in the thread.

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If that behavior wasn't condoned, or ignored, as much as it is, I wouldn't have felt the need to make that response.

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So fair enough if you want to bow out but I'm not sure what else to read from that other than people having ignored and condoned her harassment and that's why you felt the need to respond. I'm missing the irony, because you're the one that replied that people in the thread were commonly ignoring or condoning the harassment..

 

[Griffith]

So fair enough if you want to bow out but I'm not sure what else to read from that other than people having ignored and condoned her harassment and that's why you felt the need to respond.

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I don't remember the last time i saw anyone addressing harassment committed outside of this forum. We put a lot more effort and focus into the accusations rather than those being affected by it but I have seen people condemning those that associate or didn't disassociate with the targets of these campaigns and I admit that to some degree I've been guilty of doing this myself in the past, even if I didn't directly message the target. Regardless of what that person may have said or done, I wasn't aware of the impact and severity of receiving such a bombardment of negativity may have on a person's integrity and health. I've seen the effects of it, but not often enough have I heard of someone on the receiving end of it coming forward and being frank about it.

It made me retrospective and I will be more considerate in the future. I will still criticize people's actions but I will make a concerted to criticize their ideas and actions and not attack them as individuals. I think attacking individuals and divorcing them from their actions is something that possibly a lot of people have done, here or elsewhere because I have done it unintentionally, or unaware, of some of the consequences those words might bring on an individual, or those that surround them.

I understand how my words may have come across wrongly, but I hope I've made it clear now that that wasn't my intention.

 

[Kyuuji]

I don't remember the last time i saw anyone addressing harassment committed outside of this forum.

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Two pages back.

We put a lot more effort and focus into the accusations rather than those being affected by it but I have seen people condemning those that associate or didn't disassociate with the targets of these campaigns and I admit that to some degree I've been guilty of doing this myself in the past, even if I didn't directly message the target. Regardless of what that person may have said or done, I wasn't aware of the impact and severity of receiving such a bombardment of negativity may have on a person's integrity and health. I've seen the effects of it, but not often enough have I heard of someone on the receiving end of it coming forward and being frank about it.

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We must be reading different threads because commonly far more focus is paid to the feelings of the content creators than those of the communities they've upset.

It made me retrospective and I will be more considerate in the future. I will still criticize people's actions but I will make a concerted to criticize their ideas and actions and not attack them as individuals. I think attacking individuals and divorcing them from their actions is something that possibly a lot of people have done, here or elsewhere because I have done it unintentionally, or unaware, of some of the consequences those words might bring on an individual, or those that surround them.

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Fair from a distance, though her actions are what have been typically criticised in each case. I think when that's repeatedly occurring it's hard to not refer to Wynn herself since it becomes less about each incident, but the driver is incident-focused which is why every thread around her has come about as a result of one or a video.

I understand how my words may have come across wrongly, but I hope I've made it clear now that that wasn't my intention.

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Sure and I appreciate that. I do think a lot of what you're speaking to has been discussed in this thread and, on a wider level, across the various threads we've had on the times she's misspoke or messed up on something.

The issue isn't people here thinking harassment is acceptable, it's people perpetually using her having been harassed as a means to overwrite, conflate, dismiss or downplay the criticisms people here have of her. Every time.

 

[Griffith]

Honestly the issue isn't people thinking harassment is acceptable, it's people perpetually using that as a means to overwrite, conflate, dismiss or downplay the criticisms people here have of her. Every time.

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I don't condone that.

This is bordering on the off-topic so I'll leave this as just one example which is unrelated to Natalie but it's one of the better examples I can remember. When the Projared situation occurred (TLDR: Youtuber gamer personality cheated on his wife among many other terrible things) one of his friends defended him when his ex-wife step forward to accuse him of doing some egregious things. People immediately attacked said friend (Peanutbuttergamer) and his response even became a meme at some point. I watched and indirectly participated in that discussion and condoned the criticism and abuse he was receiving, but if I stop now and think about it for one second. The only thing he was guilty of, the only bad thing that he actually did (he the friend, not Jared) was believing in his friend when he probably had been lied to. Once the allegations Jared's ex-wife made were confirmed he apologized to her, but I doubt that stopped the harassment.

Just a few days ago, the friend posted this:



This is just one clear example I remember where a person receiving abuse and hardly anyone condoned it and I saw it all unfold right here on Era. I saw his mockery as something inoffensive and funny and turned a blind eye towards more inflammatory comments or tweets.

I'm not implying that happens often and I probably do not visit as many threads as you because I don't come to Era as often as I used to but I don't think its unfair to say it has happened.

My intent is just for people to be more considerate to the individuals and to not conflate them with their ideas or actions. I am not every dumb idea or act I've ever done and no one else is either.

 

[Kyuuji]

Ok, gonna be real.

Why the fuck are people so obsessed with online personalities and beating the "they're human you know" drum while never sparing a thought or sentence for the people affected by their actions and how they've felt?

People saying "they're only human" while following them and shielding them from criticism like an acolyte. Putting out "sky is blue" posts around harassment being bad consistently like it's a revelatory or contentious thought here.

 

[Griffith]

Ok, gonna be real.

Why the fuck are people so obsessed with online personalities and beating the "they're human you know" drum while never sparing a thought or sentence for the people affected by their actions and how they've felt, in their rush to defend whoever that current trending personality is?

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I don't understand those communities as well and I find the environment that surrounds them very hostile. Most attempts I have made to try to understand certain communities (for example: trans communities) have ended with me retreating from them because of receiving an inflammatory response for not understanding, or knowing, something they believe should be known before anyone approaches them.

I respect them, I wish them all the best and I hope they receive all the rights and protection they need to live peaceful and respectful lives but I find them hard to approach due to their trigger-ready attitude to any question or remark they might find offensive.

Just like I didn't understand what it's like to be on the receiving end of abuse and vitriol by an internet mob before I watched Natalie's video and Lindsay Ellis' XOXO presentation, I don't fully understand the reasons why some communities react so strongly against certain people. I can't speak for every person, but that's the reason why I spoke for Natalie rather than those who were offended by her words.

 

[beelulzebub]

I don't understand those communities as well and I find the environment that surrounds them very hostile. Most attempts I have made to try to understand certain communities (for example: trans communities) have ended with me retreating from them because of receiving an inflammatory response for not understanding, or knowing, something they believe should be known before anyone approaches them.

I respect them, I wish them all the best and I hope they receive all the rights and protection they need to live peaceful and respectful lives but I find them hard to approach due to their trigger-ready attitude to any question or remark they might find offensive.

Just like I didn't understand what it's like to be on the receiving end of abuse and vitriol by an internet mob before I watched Natalie's video and Lindsay Ellis' XOXO presentation, I don't fully understand the reasons why some communities react so strongly against certain people. I can't speak for every person, but that's the reason why I spoke for Natalie rather than those who were offended by her words.

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Then sit, listen, and learn rather than respond.

 

[Kyuuji]

Just like I didn't understand what it's like to be on the receiving end of abuse and vitriol by an internet mob before I watched Natalie's video and Lindsay Ellis' XOXO presentation, I don't fully understand the reasons why some communities react so strongly against certain people. I can't speak for every person, but that's the reason why I spoke for Natalie rather than those who were offended by her words.

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You don't appear to attempt to though. Your initial responses showed you hadn't really read the thread or concerns before jumping in and none of it centred around understanding why the community was hurt.

 

[Griffith]

Then sit, listen, and learn rather than respond.

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I have done so, multiple times. I listen and try to understand far more than I respond but responses like yours do very little to make me do more than to try to understand those communities from afar. I do know of some of the dangers they face, I do know of the pressures that communities like that feel and I sincerely empathize with those issues but I can't empathize with a group that almost exclusively wants me to listen and learn but doesn't afford me the ability to question certain things in order to understand them better.

You don't appear to attempt to though. Your initial responses showed you hadn't really read the thread or concerns before jumping in.

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I didn't read the entire thread but I did read, or at least skimmed first half dozen pages or so, but to say I haven't made an effort to try to understand those communities is completely false. Part of why I started watched Contrapoints, as an example, is because I wished to understand them better.

 

[Amibguous Cad]

In The Mirror article, linked within the DazedDigital article, Buck(then Jake Miller) told them Wachowski was taking hormones resulting in her more feminine appearance on the red carpet(for what I believe was the Matrix Reloaded premier). Wired also has a story from that same time and references Buck(Jake) reporting that Wachowski "was taking female hormones in preparation for a sex change operation." Several other major outlets were reporting similar stories fueled in part by the information Buck sold to tabloids. Like Ars Technica and the Gothamist.

Also I believe it's in the Rolling Stone article that Buck makes mention that Wachowski was already asking to be called Lana at the time when visiting his then wife Ilsa the dominatrix. So like Buck had to totally fully know that this wasn't just some kink of hers on top of the BDSM stuff but a real gender dysphoria type situation.

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The line between a crossdressing kink and a "real" gender dysphoria type situation is pretty blurry, anyway. Plenty of people wind up flipping back and forth a few times in trying to figure out exactly what they want to do with gender before settling on one identity or another... and yeah, Buck Angel of all people should be aware of that.

i find this particular point a little difficult to grasp, because it's like... what, would it have exonerated Buck if he'd "just" outed her as a crossdresser? They're both plenty shitty things to do on their own. And it's not like a transphobe is going to make a distinction between a crossdresser and trans person (and to the extent that they do, as in e.g. the transmedicalists, it's pretty shitty to do the FYGM thing to the crossdressers).

 

[Messofanego]

I have done so, multiple times. I listen and try to understand far more than I respond but responses like yours do very little to make me do more than to try to understand those communities from afar. I do know of some of the dangers they face, I do know of the pressures that communities like that feel and I sincerely empathize with those issues but I can't empathize with a group that almost exclusively wants me to listen and learn but doesn't afford me the ability to question certain things in order to understand them better.

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Really depends on your questioning. Maybe they're being interpreted as bad faith JAQing off rather than open questions that show you're curious and willing to learn. In other words, sealioning.

Avoid leading questions. Avoid questions you can easily find the answers to by searching for yourself. You'd need to show the proof of what your questioning is like to trans or non-binary communities to warrant strong reactions.

 

[FeistyBoots]

I don't remember the last time i saw anyone addressing harassment committed outside of this forum. We put a lot more effort and focus into the accusations rather than those being affected by it but I have seen people condemning those that associate or didn't disassociate with the targets of these campaigns and I admit that to some degree I've been guilty of doing this myself in the past, even if I didn't directly message the target. Regardless of what that person may have said or done, I wasn't aware of the impact and severity of receiving such a bombardment of negativity may have on a person's integrity and health. I've seen the effects of it, but not often enough have I heard of someone on the receiving end of it coming forward and being frank about it.

It made me retrospective and I will be more considerate in the future. I will still criticize people's actions but I will make a concerted to criticize their ideas and actions and not attack them as individuals. I think attacking individuals and divorcing them from their actions is something that possibly a lot of people have done, here or elsewhere because I have done it unintentionally, or unaware, of some of the consequences those words might bring on an individual, or those that surround them.

I understand how my words may have come across wrongly, but I hope I've made it clear now that that wasn't my intention.

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I know this is really hard for some people to understand, but this isn't about you.

 

[Kyuuji]

I didn't read the entire thread but I did read, or at least skimmed first half dozen pages or so, but to say I haven't made an effort to try to understand those communities is completely false. Part of why I started watched Contrapoints, as an example, is because I wished to understand them better.

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That's not what you were saying though, you said:

I don't fully understand the reasons why some communities react so strongly against certain people.

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So I said:

You don't appear to attempt to though. Your initial responses showed you hadn't really read the thread or concerns before jumping in and none of it centred around understanding why the community was hurt.

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This is twice now you've shifted from something you've said to saying something else while insinuating it's me who's done so. Watching Contrapoints isn't making an effort to understand why the community is hurt by her actions or reacting strongly against certain people, which is what you were saying.

edit: Glad thats been cut short, was a tedious troll to tend. The amount of 🚩in that 'but they just get so offended I can't even get near to them' post had me questioning which nation I was in.

 

[Juna]

The line between a crossdressing kink and a "real" gender dysphoria type situation is pretty blurry, anyway. Plenty of people wind up flipping back and forth a few times in trying to figure out exactly what they want to do with gender before settling on one identity or another... and yeah, Buck Angel of all people should be aware of that.

i find this particular point a little difficult to grasp, because it's like... what, would it have exonerated Buck if he'd "just" outed her as a crossdresser? They're both plenty shitty things to do on their own. And it's not like a transphobe is going to make a distinction between a crossdresser and trans person (and to the extent that they do, as in e.g. the transmedicalists, it's pretty shitty to do the FYGM thing to the crossdressers).

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I don't really think it would have made a difference. You can take it from the Rolling Stones article, if you weren't familiar with the fact anyway. The public didn't make a distinction at the time. It wouldn't have been okay to out a crossdresser either.
But I think him knowing for sure that she was a trans woman made his comments in these interviews way worse.

 

[Deleted member 2426]

So I am just finally coming around watching the video and DID she really have to "defend"-ish Buck Angel? Like, why not just outright condemnation, as he should get?

I mean not like she has to cancel him in a canceling video lol but what she did really felt like trying to explain-away Buck's comments and behavior.

I think I have watched enough. I want my money back sis.

 

[FormatCompatible]

So I am just finally coming around watching the video and DID she really have to "defend"-ish Buck Angel? Like, why not just outright condemnation, as he should get?

I mean not like she has to cancel him in a canceling video lol but what she did really felt like trying to explain-away Buck's comments and behavior.

I think I have watched enough. I want my money back sis.

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Because, as she puts it, she became a huge fan of him and thinks she can change his mind because she changed someone else's mind. That's her justification for the frankly bizarre attempt at defending him.

To which I say, good luck I guess? I certainly won't be there to witness that.

 

[Deleted member 60096]

So I am just finally coming around watching the video and DID she really have to "defend"-ish Buck Angel? Like, why not just outright condemnation, as he should get?

I mean not like she has to cancel him in a canceling video lol but what she did really felt like trying to explain-away Buck's comments and behavior.

I think I have watched enough. I want my money back sis.

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She finally got her idol's attention, are you really suprised she didn't do the right thing and denounce him? I mean I know this was basically what I expected going in

 

[Enduin]

Ok, gonna be real.

Why the fuck are people so obsessed with online personalities and beating the "they're human you know" drum while never sparing a thought or sentence for the people affected by their actions and how they've felt?

People saying "they're only human" while following them and shielding them from criticism like an acolyte. Putting out "sky is blue" posts around harassment being bad consistently like it's a revelatory or contentious thought here.

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I think a big factor is that there's an actual face and voice they can attach to her and largely cannot to those critiquing her. It's a major issue with online interactions in general and why places like Twitter can often be so confrontational. Actually seeing another person, or at the very least hearing them, is a good deal more powerful than reading some words on a screen. People continue to struggle with communication online because it lacks so many of the normal social cues we are accustomed to and rely on to better understand both the intent and tone of a person's words, which is why emojis and the like are so popular to act as stand ins to bridge that gap. Though they are far from an adequate replacement.

The odds in that way are disproportionately stacked in Natalie's favor. Most of us have spent several hours, possibly dozens, watching her videos. While much of it is theater and character acting, it's still all her and viewers can't help but become familiar with her mannerisms and personality. Compare that to a tweet or forum post by a person we've never seen or heard from before, we have no familiarity with them. No face, no voice, no familiar personal traits and ticks. So it's much easier for people to think of Natalie as a person, just human, because they can literally picture her in their mind and hear her voice. While most everyone else is just words on a screen that lack that same level of fidelity. You don't hear the emotion in their voice, or read the feelings on their facial expressions and so on.

I do think she makes a good point about Twitter versus long form videos on Youtube. There's a lot of good Tweet threads and reddit posts and what not out there, but korviday and Luxander's response videos still provide a much more human and lasting impression in many ways over posts that might actually have better substance. Which is why it's important to get more voices out there from the NB and other communities and not rely on a single person to speak for everyone.

The line between a crossdressing kink and a "real" gender dysphoria type situation is pretty blurry, anyway. Plenty of people wind up flipping back and forth a few times in trying to figure out exactly what they want to do with gender before settling on one identity or another... and yeah, Buck Angel of all people should be aware of that.

i find this particular point a little difficult to grasp, because it's like... what, would it have exonerated Buck if he'd "just" outed her as a crossdresser? They're both plenty shitty things to do on their own. And it's not like a transphobe is going to make a distinction between a crossdresser and trans person (and to the extent that they do, as in e.g. the transmedicalists, it's pretty shitty to do the FYGM thing to the crossdressers).

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Yeah, that's totally valid. I struggled with how to frame that and how it would likely feel like I was diminishing the severity of the cross-dressing outing. It was and is a very serious thing all on its own. But I'm not sure the public at large would see it that way, while cruel and certainly harmful, I'm not convinced many would agree with the statement that "Buck Angel outed Lana" if the only information we, or he appeared to reveal, was that Lana was cross-dressing at the time. Even though they should.

 

[Kyuuji]

I think a big factor is that there's an actual face and voice they can attach to her and largely cannot to those critiquing her. It's a major issue with online interactions in general and why places like Twitter can often be so confrontational. Actually seeing another person, or at the very least hearing them, is a good deal more powerful than reading some words on a screen. People continue to struggle with communication online because it lacks so many of the normal social cues we are accustomed to and rely on to better understand both the intent and tone of a person's words, which is why emojis and the like are so popular to act as stand ins to bridge that gap. Though they are far from an adequate replacement.

The odds in that way are disproportionately stacked in Natalie's favor. Most of us have spent several hours, possibly dozens, watching her videos. While much of it is theater and character acting, it's still all her and viewers can't help but become familiar with her mannerisms and personality. Compare that to a tweet or forum post by a person we've never seen or heard from before, we have no familiarity with them. No face, no voice, no familiar personal traits and ticks. So it's much easier for people to think of Natalie as a person, just human, because they can literally picture her in their mind and hear her voice. While most everyone else is just words on a screen that lack that same level of fidelity. You don't hear the emotion in their voice, or read the feelings on their facial expressions and so on.

I do think she makes a good point about Twitter versus long form videos on Youtube. There's a lot of good Tweet threads and reddit posts and what not out there, but korviday and Luxander's response videos still provide a much more human and lasting impression in many ways over posts that might actually have better substance. Which is why it's important to get more voices out there from the NB and other communities and not rely on a single person to speak for everyone.

Yeah, that's totally valid. I struggled with how to frame that and how it would likely feel like I was diminishing the severity of the cross-dressing outing. It was and is a very serious thing all on its own. But I'm not sure the public at large would see it that way, while cruel and certainly harmful, I'm not convinced many would agree with the statement that "Buck Angel outed Lana" if the only information we, or he appeared to reveal, was that Lana was cross-dressing at the time. Even though they should.

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Agreed on those points, human element is an obvious boon for empathy.

 

[Deleted member 3294]

Because, as she puts it, she became a huge fan of him and thinks she can change his mind because she changed someone else's mind. That's her justification for the frankly bizarre attempt at defending him.

To which I say, good luck I guess? I certainly won't be there to witness that.

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I vaguely remember her trying to debate the alt-right being a thing, despite that being a pretty terrible idea. So her trying to change the mind of Buck Angel tracks.

 

[Juna]

I do think she makes a good point about Twitter versus long form videos on Youtube. There's a lot of good Tweet threads and reddit posts and what not out there, but korviday and Luxander's response videos still provide a much more human and lasting impression in many ways over posts that might actually have better substance. Which is why it's important to get more voices out there from the NB and other communities and not rely on a single person to speak for everyone.

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Though I don't think very many people watched them. At least I haven't seen a single post in this thread talking about the content of their videos or even just saying that they watched them.

 

[lowmelody]

Ok, gonna be real.

Why the fuck are people so obsessed with online personalities and beating the "they're human you know" drum while never sparing a thought or sentence for the people affected by their actions and how they've felt?

People saying "they're only human" while following them and shielding them from criticism like an acolyte. Putting out "sky is blue" posts around harassment being bad consistently like it's a revelatory or contentious thought here.

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They are shielding themselves from past and future accountability. They are excusing themselves and those they love from being a very large part of the problem for nb people (or any minority). It's the same old performance that has done nothing but pump the brakes on social progress, always insisting that their willful ignorance be sanctified and cloistered.

It's a shallow attempt to dilute responsibility by protecting their ignorance on the majority that makes the minorities always appear unreasonable for asserting their humanity. This is why "waiting for the right time" is a always losing proposition.

Fuck 'allies' approval, readiness or weak lack thereof. Humanity now motherfuckers, all of it for everyone with no possible exceptions.

Edit - before the ally mewlings, its not about being 'perfect', its about being in the goddamn way.

 

[Deleted member 82]

I vaguely remember her trying to debate the alt-right being a thing, despite that being a pretty terrible idea. So her trying to change the mind of Buck Angel tracks.

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Yeah, she has an old debate with Sargon of all people. As good as her long-form content can be, her ability to debate alt-right trolls was pretty bad. Debating truly is an artform (a silly one if you ask me, but anyway). I watched that debate, and there even were moments where I thought she was digging a hole for herself and Sargon almost had a point, if you can believe that lol.

Though I don't think very many people watched them. At least I haven't seen a single post in this thread talking about the content of their videos or even just saying that they watched them.

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It'd be interesting to know how many people actually watched those videos. The one by korviday I watched back when Opulence came out. I remember it being pretty good, and, having rewatched it the other day, yeah, it's good stuff. He has a follow-up that's just as good about prominent leftubers and optics:



I would love it if he would make a reaction vid to Contra's latest video, but apparently he's a bit tired of the discourse and not in the right headspace for it - honestly, I can understand.

I didn't know Luxander prior to Contra's vid though. I watched their vid the other day and found it pretty good too.

 

[Kyuuji]

They are shielding themselves from past and future accountability. They are excusing themselves and those they love from being a very large part of the problem for nb people (or any minority). It's the same old performance that has done nothing but pump the brakes on social progress, always insisting that their willful ignorance be sanctified and cloistered.

It's a shallow attempt to dilute responsibility by protecting their ignorance on the majority that makes the minorities always appear unreasonable for asserting their humanity. This is why "waiting for the right time" is a always losing proposition.

Fuck 'allies' approval, readiness or weak lack thereof. Humanity now motherfuckers, all of it for everyone with no possible exceptions.

Edit - before the ally mewlings, its not about being 'perfect', its about being in the goddamn way.

Click to shrink...

✊🏳️‍🌈

 

[Deleted member 58141]

Checked out the podcast and.. Yikes. He's not even subtle about being a transmedicalist who's very desperate to prove he's just "a man" and not like "us".

It always sounded like she's really, really desperate to give the guy a chance because he was an inspiration to her early transition.... Which is something understandable and I can sympathize with especially with her highlighting his problematic behavior and disagreeing with him.. But it's also certainly a behavior worth criticizing, and she should know better than to die on a hill like this when her platform is this big. She needs to be more responsible.

Sorry if my post is awkward to read.. Sounding natural in English has always been a struggle for me.

 

[mbpm]

Checked out the podcast and.. Yikes. He's not even subtle about being a transmedicalist who's very desperate to prove he's just "a man" and not like "us".

It always sounded like she's really, really desperate to give the guy a chance because he was an inspiration to her early transition.... Which is something understandable and I can sympathize with especially with her highlighting his problematic behavior and disagreeing with him.. But it's also certainly a behavior worth criticizing, and she should know better than to die on a hill like this when her platform is this big. She needs to be more responsible.

Sorry if my post is awkward to read.. Sounding natural in English has always been a struggle for me.

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It does seem like Buck is some weird blind spot for her. Like the way she said she related to that cheesy "you hate me bc you hate urself" post she mentions in her vid, seems like a thing she developed over her own time being attacked over the internet.

 

[Deleted member 82]

Checked out the podcast and.. Yikes. He's not even subtle about being a transmedicalist who's very desperate to prove he's just "a man" and not like "us".

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Unsurprisingly, the podcast host describes herself as a "classical liberal", has a SubscribeStar, and has such... charming... guests as Blaire White and Count Dankula.

Sorry if my post is awkward to read.. Sounding natural in English has always been a struggle for me.

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Low-key sympathize, I'm the same... But you're fine :).

 

[How About No]

hey i'm starting to think Buck Angel may be a bad person and should not have been given a spotlight 🤔

 

[Speely]

They are shielding themselves from past and future accountability. They are excusing themselves and those they love from being a very large part of the problem for nb people (or any minority). It's the same old performance that has done nothing but pump the brakes on social progress, always insisting that their willful ignorance be sanctified and cloistered.

It's a shallow attempt to dilute responsibility by protecting their ignorance on the majority that makes the minorities always appear unreasonable for asserting their humanity. This is why "waiting for the right time" is a always losing proposition.

Fuck 'allies' approval, readiness or weak lack thereof. Humanity now motherfuckers, all of it for everyone with no possible exceptions.

Edit - before the ally mewlings, its not about being 'perfect', its about being in the goddamn way.

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This is an amazing post. Thank you. <3

 

[GS_Dan]

Sorry if my post is awkward to read.. Sounding natural in English has always been a struggle for me.

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Your English is great :)

 

[Kyuuji]

Checked out the podcast and.. Yikes. He's not even subtle about being a transmedicalist who's very desperate to prove he's just "a man" and not like "us".

It always sounded like she's really, really desperate to give the guy a chance because he was an inspiration to her early transition.... Which is something understandable and I can sympathize with especially with her highlighting his problematic behavior and disagreeing with him.. But it's also certainly a behavior worth criticizing, and she should know better than to die on a hill like this when her platform is this big. She needs to be more responsible.

Sorry if my post is awkward to read.. Sounding natural in English has always been a struggle for me.

Click to shrink...

No awkwardness at all, appreciate you putting it down.

hey i'm starting to think Buck Angel may be a bad person and should not have been given a spotlight 🤔

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Now now, no nazi talk.

 

[TheGreatDirector]

It's a bit tricky since most discussion about transphobia try not to reproduce it for obvious reasons.
Here is a tweet exchange I found in a rationalwiki draft between Buck Angel and Graham Linehan. The man who tried to defund Mermaid UK:
https://twitter.com/Glinner/status/1124723788749451264

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A bit off topic, but what did Mermaid UK do?

 

[Zellia]

A bit off topic, but what did Mermaid UK do?

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Mermaids is a UK charity that supports trans youth.

They were offered a grant by the National Lottery Community Fund, which pissed off transphobes like Linehan - comedy writer turned Twitter TERF - and Mumsnet - a forum infested with transphobia - so they tried to have the grant taken away.

They failed, and not only that, but hbomberguy did a charity stream in response to Linehan that raised even more money for them.

 

[TheGreatDirector]

Mermaids is a UK charity that supports trans youth.

They were offered a grant by the National Lottery Community Fund, which pissed off transphobes like Linehan - comedy writer turned Twitter TERF - and Mumsnet - a forum infested with transphobia - so they tried to have the grant taken away.

They failed, and not only that, but hbomberguy did a charity stream in response to Linehan that raised even more money for them.

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Ahhh, I thought they did something bad. I actually donated to them in that hbomberguy stream and was worried lol.

 

[curiouscharles]

She has clarified that time and time again. Seems very fair to say that people who are still asking for an answer can't be provided with one.

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I've given up on such people.

She clarifies to a further extent than should be necessary in this video her feelings towards NB people, and as someone who identifies as such I was more than satisfied.

Still have ~30 minutes left in this video before I can make final judgment, but I've been enjoying it most throughly.

I stopped at "I'm not defending James Charles, but."

Not wasting nearly two hours of my time on it.

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She speaks directly to people like you in this video, and I think you should allow yourself the open-mindedness to hear her out.

Seriously, I'm fully convinced that cancel culture has gone too far now, although I still believe some people DO deserve cancellation - we've all just gotten a lil' frothy at the mouths methinks.

 

[Kyuuji]

I've given up on such people.

She clarifies to a further extent than should be necessary in this video her feelings towards NB people, and as someone who identifies as such I was more than satisfied.

Still have ~30 minutes left in this video before I can make final judgment, but I've been enjoying it most throughly.
She speaks directly to people like you in this video, and I think you should allow yourself the open-mindedness to hear her out.

Seriously, I'm fully convinced that cancel culture has gone too far now, although I still believe some people DO deserve cancellation - we've all just gotten a lil' frothy at the mouths methinks.

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There's 19 pages of discussion between the initial posts and now, I think it's also fair to suggest the open-mindedness to get the perspective from some of those posts too as to why some are still resistant to Natalie after this. I'm glad it's something you're satisfied with though, and you're happy with the resolve offered.

 

[Icemonk191]

So I am just finally coming around watching the video and DID she really have to "defend"-ish Buck Angel? Like, why not just outright condemnation, as he should get?

I mean not like she has to cancel him in a canceling video lol but what she did really felt like trying to explain-away Buck's comments and behavior.

I think I have watched enough. I want my money back sis.

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So when I said this

Because she agrees with him. Have you not been paying attention the last couple of months or something?

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And you respond with this

No she does not. No need to blatantly lie about it.

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You not only didn't know what you were talking about, you hadn't even watched the FUCKING VIDEO!

If this is not a perfect encapsulation of the whole situation I don't know what is.

 

[Hoa]

Since it keeps getting brought I wanted to ask for the people that keep raising it. If the fair criticisms made by NB, trans and other members in here can be construed as harassment, is it possible to criticize any public figure without it being harassment to you?

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This question is asked multiple times in this thread and maybe I missed some but they never have an answer for it or it gets ignored.

I think about it when stuff like this comes up and I'd probably just say some folks out there could be better at criticizing the idea rather than the person pushing the idea. Maybe if the focus is on just the terrible viewpoint being pushed it'd feel less like harassment when a large amount of people join in? It's a hard line to judge though.

 

[Deleted member 2426]

So when I said this

And you respond with this

You not only didn't know what you were talking about, you hadn't even watched the FUCKING VIDEO!

If this is not a perfect encapsulation of the whole situation I don't know what is.

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I am sorry :c I should have clarified that I didn't watch the whole video until today. I watched little pieces before but watching the whole thing changed my mind on that matter.

 

[lokiduck]

While I've been keeping up with this thread I have seen plenty of people in here say that Contrapoints has been their way of learning more about the trans community or was helped them figure out their own gender identity, but that reason is exactly why she needs to be held accountable for her mistakes especially when she keeps making them.

This is also why it's important to have more than one voice of the community to listen to and that's why I love that people were talking about Non-binary youtubers earlier, because that way if one person you watch is wrong about something you have other voices to use as a reference point.

But even then she still needs to be held accountable especially if she is going to be considered as one of the main voices of the community and especially if she is going to be the only voice that most people listen to.