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ContraPoints | Canceling
- Thread starter Infinity Times Two
- Start date
If we acknowledge that
a. The thought is in fact problematic
b. The space was in fact public
c. The person in question has a significant platform
Then I'm not sure how you can argue that the effect wasn't damaging, regardless of intent.
Extrapolating this beyond trans issues, ima go out and say that if you're someone whose words a lot of people put stock into, it's a bad idea for everyone involved to be tweeting stuff you should be taking to your therapist.
"Wow this video was great! Good job to Natalie for going after Trans Twitter just because they got mad at her for * checks notes * defending and downplaying the negative actions of a well-known bigot! The Left eating itself again am I right?"
Let's make this completely clear.
The primary goal of the video is to call out the abuse, harrassment, and threats sent to Natalie. That is despicable behavior and not a person here should support it.
The problem is that the secondary goal of the video is to undermine all the actual valid critiques and responses to the Buck Angel thing, her lackluster and fanboyish response, and her attitude towards non-binary people as part of the harrasament and nicely tie it all under "cancel culture".
The primary goal of the video is to call out the abuse, harrassment, and threats sent to Natalie. That is despicable behavior and not a person here should support it.
The problem is that the secondary goal of the video is to undermine all the actual valid critiques and responses to the Buck Angel thing, her lackluster and fanboyish response, and her attitude towards non-binary people as part of the harrasament and nicely tie it all under "cancel culture".
I thought the video was on point as a criticism for how "cancellation culture" can often be used to obfuscate harassment and abuse.
You're right, it does a good job showing how Natalie used "cancel culture" as a way to obfuscate the harassment and abuse that Buck Angel has done.
User Banned (2 Weeks): Concern trolling
I can't help but feel that you're not speaking in good faith.
People didn't ''just get mad'' at her, you're complaining about downplaying and yet you are doing it yourself.
Why are you persistently found inserting yourself in transgender threads to 'just' lightly downplay any concerns?
Because I take an interest in trans topics and hope to be better informed, especially about any recent controversies. This is partially why I watch Contra Points videos. I freely admit to coming to these discussions from a cis male perspective and so if I've said anything that's wrong or offensive I hope to be corrected.
Cis dudes coming in here to tell LGBTQ+ folks why they're wrong to be mad is basically a contrapoints thread tradition.
Criticizing Natalie is fine, it just feels very weird when there's tens of thousands of people condemning her as harshly as possible on Twitter.
One tweet of "kill yourself!" feels very bad, I can only imagine what a thousand tweets of that would feel like that.
Think people on Twitter don't understand how overwhelming the flood of posts can be even if they're contributing not to hurt someone but just because they wanted to express their opinion.
But that's more an issue with how modern social media works.
One tweet of "kill yourself!" feels very bad, I can only imagine what a thousand tweets of that would feel like that.
Think people on Twitter don't understand how overwhelming the flood of posts can be even if they're contributing not to hurt someone but just because they wanted to express their opinion.
But that's more an issue with how modern social media works.
Please don't do this. Supporting non-binary people does not mean you have to shame binary trans people for wanting to pass or change their bodies in a manner that alleviates their dysphoria and affirms their gender identity
So how would you like me to show that I'm sincere? Or how do you feel I should approach future discussions? Again, if I've said something wrong or offensive then I would like to know.
tbh if she were discussing these things in a private space, whether it be therapy or with friends or via private messages/discords/whatever, and then those discussions got leaked online (whether they be recordings or screenshots or whatever), people would have the same reactions
On a random note, is there a GIF of her flaunting her "EXTRA" hair pin?
* * *
As someone who didn't know about Buck, I cannot see how Buck comes out in a good light in her video. She states that he did some shitty things (Lana), that he has shitty beliefs (NB-exclusionary "boomer"), and that, ultimately, she does not agree with either of those things at all.
I get that she got the quotes and saw some inspiration in them, but that doesn't make him awesome either.
Sounds like Buck is a backwards thinker, that she would like to have a real discussion with at some point. I think she regrets putting him in her video. (I suppose the argument is circular because then it's like if you knew that, then why did you have him in there in the first place?)
And I don't see NB/trans twitter coming out as bad here either.
What comes out bad is cancel culture. How it can make someone so radioactive that it "cancels" anyone around them for even suggesting that the person is a friend/colleague if they don't disavow them.
Besides the issues about sweeping things under the rug.
Yeah, her comment about being sexually assaulted later on, added to this dark spot. When she talked about the porn star who killed herself, I was like, please let's not make this a suicide note.
* * *
It was weird that she kinda just swept that under the rug.
What is the apology that people are looking for most recently? "I apologize for having Buck in my video."
As someone who didn't know about Buck, I cannot see how Buck comes out in a good light in her video. She states that he did some shitty things (Lana), that he has shitty beliefs (NB-exclusionary "boomer"), and that, ultimately, she does not agree with either of those things at all.
I get that she got the quotes and saw some inspiration in them, but that doesn't make him awesome either.
Sounds like Buck is a backwards thinker, that she would like to have a real discussion with at some point. I think she regrets putting him in her video. (I suppose the argument is circular because then it's like if you knew that, then why did you have him in there in the first place?)
And I don't see NB/trans twitter coming out as bad here either.
What comes out bad is cancel culture. How it can make someone so radioactive that it "cancels" anyone around them for even suggesting that the person is a friend/colleague if they don't disavow them.
That's what I thought this video was about.
Besides the issues about sweeping things under the rug.
Yeah, her comment about being sexually assaulted later on, added to this dark spot. When she talked about the porn star who killed herself, I was like, please let's not make this a suicide note.
I've seen Mia I think say similar, the metoo part not so much the "vigilante justice" part
this is like the most right wing reactionary looking excuse I've ever seen in my life. this is literally what right wing grifters do to get out of the pitfalls of their arguments all the time, the preemptive callout of their critics
If there's one thing the LGBTQ community doesn't mind overlooking, it's career-ending confidentiality violations
Do you hope to be corrected, though? Are you coming into these discussions just to be informed? Because you've shown a pattern of behavior that screams "cis dude who wants to speak over marginalized people expressing ways in which they have been hurt"
I'm done with her. Just done. I refuse to reward her constant fuck ups toward NBs by watching a goddamn 2 hour video that only enriches her.
impling enbies aren't part of the "sane left" and are pathological in "cancelling bullshit" does seem pretty hateful to me
i don't know if this is sarcastic or not because the number of intra-lgbtq community callout posts i've seen that rely on screenshots of private communications is pretty high (to say nothing of all the thirsty gay dudes i've seen who are perfectly fine passing around leaked nudes of male celebrities)
If you want to become more informed about trans topics, listen to the trans people in the thread more, not argue with them
I come into these discussions to discuss them. Same as literally everyone else. If I'm wrong then ideally somebody corrects me so I stop being wrong.
Nobody has any obligation to try to argue with a bad faith actor, nor should anyone be obligated to justify their existences because you decided to enter a thread and be willfully ignorant while asserting your opinions over people better informed than you.
Im not calling out her critics, im calling out the people that are doing and saying exactly what she is saying is a bad thing to do; hating on her the person and dismissing everything because she said it.
Many (not all, not even most) people are just being reactionary and shitting on her as a person without even hearing what she is saying... which is the whole point of the video.
Critique is awesome and many people do have valid criticism... but Im not referring to them.
But the problem here is that she has successfully muddied the waters by framing things in such a way that her critics and her harassers are one tangled knot.
People have got to start realizing that long YouTube videos are a bad way to address criticism though. No one who is critical of you is going to watch a 100 minute long YouTube video you make explaining yourself. These videos are extremely time consuming and just daunting as well.
I'm kind of boggling at the thought of relegating these complex ideas at the intersection of personal identity and trans social justice to the medicalized realm of therapy. even if you're not reluctant to say anything controversial because you're beholden to your therapist to write you letters for treatment or identity documents (this still happens all the time in a lot of country!), finding one with a more advanced understanding of this stuff than (even) Natalie is practically impossible. and even if you did, it would be a luxury to be able to pay them to talk about the problematic nature of the social justice implications of the intrusive thoughts you had following weird gendering experiences instead of, you know, the pressing mental health impact of the weird gendering experiences.
but this does get back at what i was trying to say: because she is transitioning and learning very, very publicly, these growing pains that so many trans people go through privately are on full display in front of a very knowledgeable and very judgmental part of the internet. so instead of, for example, just dealing with the manifestation of internalized oppression that is shame about not "passing" in isolation as you slowly (hopefully) stumble your way into overcoming it with Better Ideas like a lot of trans folks do, Contrapoints exposes this halting uncertainty to communities that a) (in the case of advanced trans twitter) overcame it long ago or b) (in the case of ally twitter) never had to personally overcome it because trans people had already solved it and quickly handed them the right answer as if it were simple addition and not difficult calculus.
these two groups are generally tuned to call out bullshit from external actors acting on their own (shit) endgame theory. it's pretty obvious that this is a good and necessary thing! but this same tuning is really poorly suited to addressing this newer kind of problem - the kind of misunderstandings that come not from cishet Netflix comedians or idiotic columnists, but from well meaning internal group members in the midst of doing the math for themselves, out in the open, instead of privately.
callout discourse evolved as a hammer because there were and are so many nails in need of hammering. but faced with a screw, the hammer's kind of kludgey and unkind. it would be great if we could work on new tools better calibrated for this kind of work. the process of understanding and developing your own gender in relation to the world around you is, not uncommonly, messy. but it's only recently that any of it has wound up on such a huge stage like this, and we clearly weren't ready for it as a movement.
Yeah, when someone associates those upset with her with not being sane, yeah thats what I get from that
She's the one calling out her critics preemptively. That was my point. She's purposefully pretending they don't have good reason to be hesitant to watch a 2 hour long video about cancel culture after her previous behaviour.
It was. "career-ending confidentiality violation" is a 100% accurate description of what would happen to the therapist in question. Even ignoring that, having a leak would absolutely change how it's perceived on here since she would rightfully call it an confidential emotional confession and the mods would lock the thread.
Also tbh I'm not sure the point of what your original was if not to imply that all internet communication should be treated as public.
I don't think I've ever said anybody has any obligation towards me or discussing the topic with me or anyone else. I certainly don't believe that. I also don't think I've asked anyone to justify their existence, not intentionally. So your comment leaves me somewhat confused.
I do agree that the therapist would immediately lose their career if they leaked that, but I disagree with you about screenshots of private message boards etc. I don't think those leaks would get the leaker condemned that harshly.
Any leaks would get passed around on twitter as receipts as proof of what an awful and duplicitous person she is, and this:
is proof of that, because you read my post and thought "oh he's saying we should treat all internet communication as public!"
What I'm saying is that the whole "She's not allowed to vent, or discuss these intrusive thoughts, or misgivings, or whatever, in public, because she's a public figure with a large following" is horseshit because people would be having the exact same reaction if she were having those conversations in private, and then those conversations got leaked.
It is however the implication behind the whole stance of "we can't shut out bigots cause we might be able to save them" against cancel culture, whether intentional or not
It really isn't, its a pretty basic path to follow. Extremely disingenous take on enbies' feeling upset towards insensitive content creator -> poster probably feels animosity towards enbies. Thats it, thats the entire path. Simple and not weird
WHAT
She calls people bringing up the Lana stuff Nazis pretending to be trans and portrays it as a mere extra marital affair issue.
She then says his heart is in the right place regarding his views on NB folks and that while she wishes he had different views and disagrees that he isn't bigoted against them.
It's a 20 min praise fest of Angel with lipservice to his bigotry that amounts to downplaying it
this is a misreading of the intent of the language and I shouldn't have been so flippant about it. The point was that the subject matter is most typically suited to a private confidant, not that literally going to therapy is the only (or even best) place for it.
Taking this again out of Contrapoints' specific example, I'm reminded of that homophobic stuff Terry Crews tweeted recently. He was well meaning, didn't intend any harm, tweeted some stuff that needed a confidant, and rightfully got tons of shit for it from people who didn't have that kind of time.
This is specifically why I added the caveat about it only applying to persons of interest. Doing the math in the open can be damaging, regardless of well meaning. This isn't to say I'm saying it shouldn't be done either, but that's a more abstract debate of consequentialism vs other kinds of ethics.
I would argue that pretty much all of the serious death-threat esque side effects of "cancel culture" as a whole should be laid on the feet of Twitter and other social media networks themselves for having such terrible spam protection in the first place.
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It's a very simple path, but it takes very specific assumptions to reach.
eg, the poster might not be condemning the hundreds or thousands of tweets of "hey, that really hurt, I hope you change your mind" but was condemning the hundreds or thousands of "Natalie Wynn die bitch challenge" tweets.