It was a really well done and human video. Probably the best explanation I've seen on how unproductive cancel culture is, and the people who need to watch it the most are likely going to dismiss it.
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ContraPoints | Canceling
- Thread starter Infinity Times Two
- Start date
I understand and agree with this, and my own "trauma-informed" remark was a badly-worded attempt as such. And I very well may be trying to pathologize reactions that don't need pathology, possibly as a response to my own traumas.
I've seen this also, as well as imposing "no true Scotsman"-esque purity tests on marginalized groups (which sure feels close to the dichotomous aspect Natalie discussed).
I watched it. There's some thought provoking stuff in there and I think it's worth watching, but it still bothers me how it basically frames all of the backlash as people trying to harass her. That's the way Lindsay Ellis views things too and I don't think it's completely fair, even though this video makes it clear why they would feel that way.
User Banned (1 Month): Pattern of dismissive drive-by posts in sensitive threads.
I watched the whole thing and she was right. Nobody determined to hate on her is going to watch.
Also, lol at the people who want a summary. Nah, you cowards. Start analyzing things for yourself and stop relying on a mob to tell you what to do/be one of the cool kidz.
Also, lol at the people who want a summary. Nah, you cowards. Start analyzing things for yourself and stop relying on a mob to tell you what to do/be one of the cool kidz.
I think one thing that contributes to this (that she should have recognized and talked about) is how losing a broader circle of people to bounce ideas off of due to cancel culture can also make one's thinking a lot more insular. Like there might be some legitimate blind spots that she has but her most trusted circle would probably not want to call her out on that, and a healthier public callout could help one learn in some ways that a very close circle can't.
I'm sorry I didn't see this before my earlier response. Outstanding post with a lot to consider, thank you!
Well, I thought it was a pretty good video. She does indulge in how hurt she felt personally by everything, but if you're not looking to feel exhausted by that, it paints a pretty good picture of how grueling it is to get through a period of being trashed upon and ostracized.
This is completely unrelated to anything, but I'm now curious as to how Patreon income gets taxed.
I'm gonna go out and agree with Lesath by saying that maybe she shouldn't be tweeting out her imperfect feelings about other marginalized groups, especially when Contrapoints the channel is meticulously researched and designed to appeal to people who are not trans and don't know anything about queer theory.
This isn't to diminish any of her inspiration to you, but "honest and vulnerable feelings other trans people can relate to" and "anti-conservative propaganda for the edgy YouTube kids" are not brands that can reconcile very well. Her success as the latter makes doing the former kind of reckless imo since she's delberately put herself into a position of authority and we saw that in action after the pronoun-related tweets you mentioned immediately got weaponized by the usual right wing peanut gallery.
So far into the video the underlying point seems to be to not paint people in the worst possible light just because it's easy to do so.
Cancelling doesn't have to be literally mean they no longer have their job or their influence. But you can simply write off anything they say or do with zero effort by throwing some powerful labels that may not be an accurate or fair characterization of the person.
Cancelling doesn't have to be literally mean they no longer have their job or their influence. But you can simply write off anything they say or do with zero effort by throwing some powerful labels that may not be an accurate or fair characterization of the person.
I agree with this.
Note 1: cishet white male here, so yeah, my opinion is worth... whatever it's worth.
Note 2: back during the Opulence/Buck Angel controversy, I posted a lot in two different threads about the whole thing, mostly to complain that it was a shitty thing of Natalie to do, that her apology didn't cut the mustard, and that her YouTube friends' responses were kinda crappy too. So much so that one poster commented that I wasn't that far removed from the irrational Twitter mob. One thing is for sure: I was very vehement in calling out Contrapoints and pals.
With that in mind, here are my updated thoughts on the whole thing now that I've seen the entire video: I still empathize with the hurt feelings, and back when Opulence came out, I found some critical Twitter threads and YouTube responses that extremely thoughtful and/or insightful. In this new video, I'm glad that Contra acknowledges those types of responses, and I'm especially glad that she mentioned korviday's YouTube response, for instance. Love the guy. With that said, my ability to empathize and be on the side of the audience only lasts up until the point where people start calling her entire being trash and pretty much an irredeemably bad person who's no better than your average bigot, and also possibly a grifter. Like, she obviously cares deeply and works her ass off on her videos. Grifters are people like, say, TheQuartering, or Steven Crowder, or PragerU. That is painting her with too broad a stroke IMO. Buck Angel? Eeeeh, yeah, I see her point I guess, but I'm still very, very iffy on the guy. I mean, how can't I be when people like noted transphobe Graham Linehan calls him "one of the good ones". But Contra herself? Call me foolish, but I want to believe she genuinely means well, that she can improve, and that, on balance, she's a powerful force for progressivism. Which doesn't mean other people should necessarily be as lenient or patient as me. If you're an NB and you don't want to hear about her again, who am I to tell you what to do? I don't know what it's like to be on the receiving end of all this. And she still needs to be more thoughtful in how she tackles some topics.
Her video still gave me some food for thought. When it comes to the more vitriolic side of myself, I'll now try and save it for people who truly deserve it: politicians and grifters who actively hurt the world on a large scale and just make the world a worse place for everyone but rich bigots, with no signs of being willing to improve. Or better yet, I'll try and boost positive content instead.
Binary people swarming in to throw shade at other Era members as having a lesson to learn like close to if not all of us haven't been criticizing any harrasment given and distinguishing ourselves from it, like there wasn't numerous normal call-outs leading up to the Buck Angel incident and that there isn't a much wider context behind this all.
People content to throw cancel culture at people talking about someone on a forum while conflating them with people harrassing them directly on twitter because that's how vague and nebulous the term is.
People content to throw cancel culture at people talking about someone on a forum while conflating them with people harrassing them directly on twitter because that's how vague and nebulous the term is.
Your definition of cancel culture is far too limited if you think that its only effects are financial in nature.
Right. I guess it's not really the kind of topic that you can cover comprehensively because if you've been through something like this you will have those blind spots, but if you haven't you wouldn't know what the experience is like at all. I do think it kept the video from being as good as it could have been though.
I guess it's good that she recommended videos critical of her in the video, so you can get that other perspective?
I don't think this kind of subject lends itself well to brevity honestly. Especially on the internet where there is always going to be that person that says "yeah, but she didn't even address this or that"
Sure, its a long watch and yes Natalie likes to indulge herself in theatrically unraveling her points but inevitability if she didn't have a section where she talks about the buck stuff if there was a section where she didn't address the non-binary stuff if there wasn't a section covering this... and that... someone would bring that up as Natalie running away from addressing it.
So yes, its long and sometimes indulgent but she kind of covers everything because if she didn't she'd get called out for that too. In an era where 1-2 hour podcasts are a fairly normal thing 100 minutes doesn't seem like a big ask of time to me.
He still has almost 900k subscribers, and he's resumed regular uploads...
Haven't watched the video yet, but the thread has already come to a consensus on who's 'right' and turned to insults (both veiled and not so veiled) so I don't imagine a lot of dissenting opinions going to come forward regardless.
That's the catch 22 though isn't it? The foundation of the draw of her videos is the intellectual deep dive coupled with candid personal experience. The heart of the video essay content is evidence driven thesis while outreach/exposure is dependent on showing authenticity.
Those bemoaning her being manipulative, do you believe her personal reaction to the public backlash to be unauthentic? My personal impression was that the contrast of her personal pain on the matter to the very direct moments of unmuddled apology where she agrees she is wrong lends to the authenticity of the apology. Those saying an apology doesn't need to be this long, real apologies are more than a statement. They are a body of work that takes time to heal a rift in a damaged relationship. This video was the first real step in attempting to heal that relationship. Does that mean the relationship will work out in the end? Just as with any real relationship that will depend on everyone in the relationship.
She shows authenticity in the videos themselves though and if her having unfettered Twitter access was necessary for her outreach to succeed, she wouldn't have handed over the reigns to someone else. You can be authentic without being completely unfiltered.
Yeah, same. This thread honestly kinda seems like a lot of binary people rushing to try and excuse her and that angle isn't surprising considering her platform and status among a lot of the internet left.
I think there are much more posters on here who didn't watch the video then people who did. While the video is too long, I can't help but see how there a surprising amount of people in here who are part of the mob she extensively references in the video. Nothing Natalie can do to fix things with them. And I seriously doubt this is even related to helping the people who actually felt hurt what she said in the past.
Nobody in this thread is doxxing/hurling abuse at Natalie or demanding that others denounce her.
I honestly don't find the apology authentic because her reaction to the criticism was mostly dismissiveness rather than an attempt to listen and mature. Or at least if this is the apology then I'd have been more receptive to it if she hadn't spent months digging in her heels. There's a significant difference between "I should have known better than to hold an opinion on here," vs. "I keep putting my foot in my mouth. I'm gonna take some time to work on this." Before this video she wasn't putting out any statements like the latter but she said the former almost verbatim.
Agree with all of this. Twitter specifically is not the platform for her to use for that and I think she learned that the hard way. Pretty sure she agrees with you too in the video. Also why it's probably a smart move for her to continue moving away from it as she doesn't seem to have the control to compose her thoughts before sending a tweet. Her best form is when she spends a long time gestating ideas.
That said not sure how much longer she'll have the energy for even that when large chunks of her work (and even by proxy, the work of her peers) are being undermined by their smaller details.
Yep, it's really ironic to see people just keep on the mob mentality shit.
I saw people on twitter straight face calling people enbyphobes for even watching this video lol
Listened through the vid.
It didn't feel as long as I expected, but I do feel like this is two videos in one. One of which is her contextualizing and apologizing for some of her comments and explaining why she didn't ostracize comments Buck Angel made (that being that she doesn't find it productive to cast him out and she does disagree with the comments he has made regarding identification (and providing some potential context)). Another of which is her trying to contextualize internet hate mobs (she is not saying everyone who criticized her is this).
And although I do this was a pretty big video...I also think I'm definitely missing a lot. Like, I'm starting to believe no issue like this can be done by one presenter or person in a structure video like this. It needs to be a conversation. And I feel like I'm missing out on potential context that NB figures who are clued in on the situation and know her work/her behavior well can provide.
And yeah I'm not convinced about the Lana thing really.
It didn't feel as long as I expected, but I do feel like this is two videos in one. One of which is her contextualizing and apologizing for some of her comments and explaining why she didn't ostracize comments Buck Angel made (that being that she doesn't find it productive to cast him out and she does disagree with the comments he has made regarding identification (and providing some potential context)). Another of which is her trying to contextualize internet hate mobs (she is not saying everyone who criticized her is this).
And although I do this was a pretty big video...I also think I'm definitely missing a lot. Like, I'm starting to believe no issue like this can be done by one presenter or person in a structure video like this. It needs to be a conversation. And I feel like I'm missing out on potential context that NB figures who are clued in on the situation and know her work/her behavior well can provide.
And yeah I'm not convinced about the Lana thing really.
She literally tried to say that taking more than 5 seconds to google the easy to find story of how Buck outed Lana makes people look like transphobic facists. I wonder what more could people possibly want from her than that fucking gem right there. Not to mention her dismissiveness towards people's reasons for being upset with her when discussing all except two of her previous controveries, the easy ones to apologise on to seem like she's actually self reflecting when she clearly isn't
lol the irony
Please don't lump those who are deeply uncertain about watching a new 100 minute video from someone who platformed a toxic asshole and then doubled down/deflected when criticised about it with doxxers/harassers, thanks.
Many of the responses in this thread are my exact problem with the rhetoric around "cancel culture", it just turns into "never criticize, never hold people to account, don't have standards"
Have you considered the possibility that some of the people in this "mob" are the people that have felt hurt by the stuff she's said?
still working my way through. she's right that a lot of people literally don't give a shit about any kind of apology (but lol @ citing tweets with ~20 likes and 3 retweets), and she's also right it's super funny to see people who so strongly object to buck angel doing a voice over of a john waters be completely ambivalent about her actually platforming john waters
just finished watching it, its a good video, i have to think about it more, since its a very big video. But the part about empathy, mental health and calling people out got me thinking. Its a complex topic
As someone who isn't trans or NB and wasn't happy with Natalie's responses to Buck and other NB criticisms, no, all I'm doing is listening to see how those communities respond. I won't respond to the video until I have a chance to watch it, which may not be for a bit since 100 minutes is a big ask.
For all this bellyaching of performative wokeness by moderates, there's also an awful lot of performative centrism, where some leftist straw man is burned to mock the so-called Era hive mind.
Didnt exactly want to say that at least not yet, however often there is alot of patting each other on the back when it comes to these sort of issues so im watching the video but as I said way more interested in the non binary opinions rather than some of the *yass queen* remarks I have been seeing in some twitter replies.
I'll have to give it a second watch but what I saw was:
Her reaction to some of the criticism was debate.
Her reaction to some of the criticism was full stop admittance and apology.
Her reaction to the personal contempt was dismiss, snark, sarcasm, along with a larger perspective the social uprising of mob ran personal attacks.
Do I personally believe she could have given more empathy and answered more humbly to those with personal attacks? Yes. Would I actually expect it? Weeell I would expect it a bit more from her (as someone trained in the ways of surviving public personal onslaught) than I would from the individuals attacking her to show the same empathy; however, these are all human people that are going to have reactions to being hurt. Her anecdote about the stream trigger is specifically about this.
Are Natalie defenders really using the "Watch this long ass video to understand" defense that Jordan Peterson fans use? Really?
Do you not see the irony?
Also, congrats trying to claim that "not wanting to watch a video because reasons" = 'mob mentality"
Fucking clowns
Do you not see the irony?
Also, congrats trying to claim that "not wanting to watch a video because reasons" = 'mob mentality"
Fucking clowns
When I saw the runtime I knew these kinds of posts would come up.
Poor tactical planning on her part, but also someone equating her content to Jordan Peterson's (or any long form right winger) simply because of length is arguing in bad faith anyways.
Can't say I agree with the mob mentality post, but yes, I think to understand the video, which is the topic of conversation here, you'd probably have to watch it.
Sounds like she wants to have her cake and eat it too:
Buck Angel has been suspectly bigoted towards non binary people which sure that sucks, but he's still a super inspriing trand activist, oh and actually he's not bigoted against non binary people
Nat is so #brave
The idea that Natalie hated NB people always seemed crazy to me as someone who has watched her since the early days.
Also believe that to appreciate the video and wider concerns you need to have understanding of the months-long wider context within which it's all sitting from a perspective other than Natalie's.
its even better than that, "hes not bigoted against non binary people, he just doesn't want to interact with them or even acknowledge their existence. Which is totally okay" was basically the messaging with the Buck apologia.