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Oct 25, 2017
3,722
youtu.be

CS:GO with Gyro + Flick Stick on a DualShock 4 (JSM)

The whole controller becomes a frictionless mouse with gyro done right, and then flick stick takes it to a new level altogether! Here's how to try it in Coun...

Joyshock Mapper's Flick Stick + Gyro absolutely need to become a standard for controllers.
Within a single playthrough of Doom I was more comfortable with this setup than M/KB, which I've been using for years.

Huge advantage: Since the right stick no longer is a time or acceleration based input, *stick sensitivity is no longer a thing*. You directly point at the exact angle you want to turn to. There's no such thing as having a stick sensitivity too high to aim at an enemy or too low to respond to fire. This means that a dev would have zero reason to try and mess with weird acceleration curves, high or low speeds, or deadzones. All of that is completely irrelevant. Additionally, the stick's low range of movement stops being a weakness, as it's irrelevant. A joycon stick would be just as effective at aiming as a PS4 stick with one of those height caps on it.
Gyro is used for the rest of the actual aiming. It's sort of quirky on PC where games don't have a recenter button, or "Splatoon button", but actual native support from devs would have easy and sensible recenter.
 

Sanka

Banned
Feb 17, 2019
5,778
Looking at COD and other big titles I can't say that it's something most players care about. People even manage to play games like Fortnite on their phones and this seems to be the future in gaming. Humans after a while are able to adapt to really any setup without problems.
I personally never felt controls particulary lacking or limiting but I only played FPS games on consoles since childhood so I can't compare it to PCs.

I agree that the description and customization options are oftentimes way too incomprehensible and should be made more simple. And that games should offer more options altogether but it's not something that's ever on my mind. Except the game is just really controlling badly.
 
OP
OP
Alek

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,467
Well thought out post, OP, but I can't relate. I've been gaming so long that I pretty much feel at home with any control scheme after a few mins, and don't really even think about it after that. Obviously there is a learning curve for games that are mechanically complex, but that's not really a matter of controls.

Personally I feel the opposite way.

I feel like I've been gaming so long that I can feel when any slight thing is 'off' with the controls.

I can feel miliseconds of input latency. Aim acceleration, and large deadzones and since I like to play competitively I know what I can be most precise with. So when I feel that, I know it's hindering my experience and I try to go to the settings to try and make them feel more responsive.

I'm not saying I can't play them as they are (though without certain settings, some people can't), just that I don't find it comfortable. I'm currently running through Doom Eternal on Nightmare, after clearing Ultra Violence, and it's fine to play, I love the game, but never comfortable, unlike you I never forget about how the controls feel slightly off, for me.

Looking at COD and other big titles I can't say that it's something most players care about. People even manage to play games like Fortnite on their phones and this seems to be the future in gaming. Humans after a while are able to adapt to really any setup without problems.
I personally never felt controls particulary lacking or limiting but I only played FPS games on consoles since childhood so I can't compare it to PCs.

I agree that the description and customization options are oftentimes way too incomprehensible and should be made more simple. And that games should offer more options altogether but it's not something that's ever on my mind. Except the game is just really controlling badly.

Hm, I'm really not sure how you drew that conclusion looking at those titles.

Call of Duty, is renowned for its super responsive controls. I think it's one of the best feeling games out of the box.

Moreover, these games also have the best customisation options. Fortnite, Apex and Call of Duty Modern Warfare all feature full custom remapping and extensive sets of options to customise the configuration of the sticks.

If anything, it looks like doing this right, and being popular go hand in hand.

I think it's the case that people do implicitly care about game feel, a heck of a lot. But they usually don't know how to articulate it. Someone that doesn't play Hunt Showdown because of how it feels usually won't have a vocabulary to describe that issue like we can on a forum like ERA, so they'll just say they didn't like how it feels, or they might not even speak to anyone about it at all, they just won't keep playing.

Moreover, I think these features are becoming vastly more important as we approach an era dominated by free to play live services. If you buy a £50 game and don't like the controls, you'll likely persevere and get used to them, because you already have those sunk costs. You'll probably eventually forget about the controls and enjoy the game by the end of it. But with free to play titles, people are much more likely to permanently bounce of that first time user experience and never return. So it's really vital that these games both feel good to play, and if players aren't comfortable, they offer robust options so that they can be.
 
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Älg

Banned
May 13, 2018
3,178
Perhaps that needs textual change. The setting refers to how strong the Unified Soldier Aiming is and to what extent it is applied.

I don't actually own BFV so I don't know how the settings are explained in-game, but it does admittedly sound like something that would be difficult to explain in text. A cursory glance at the BF forums told me that there is a lot of confusion about what the setting means, and that one of your devs advocated for not having it in the game in the first place.

It does seem to me like the settings might expose the users to too much complexity, for little to no benefit. I'm assuming DICE isn't the only dev compensating for varying FOV values, but I've never seen this setting anywhere else, even in games that require far more precision from players.
 

Evolved1

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,619
Could not agree more with OP. This might be my #1 issue with game dev right now -- because nothing else matters if the game is bad to control.

However I strongly disagree with a general sentiment here and on other forums that gamepad controls are inherently bad or unintuitive. They can feel precise and very rewarding, when done right. And some games do it right. I used to believe the main issue was PC centric devs porting to console and not understanding analog (maybe they were just not familiar enough, or even not good with them to actually "feel" what was wrong) so we ended up with acceleration and other bullshit (aim assist) to try and mimic the mouse. But that theory hasn't proven true, because some PC devs with little console experience have dropped near perfectly controlling games. Consider something like Killing Zone 2 which is close to perfect, without even having to mess with it. That game requires precision and it's 100% possible to play at a high level because the controls are so smooth.

This is personal opinion and preference: a mouse will always be more precise than gamepad. But I prefer the gameplay feel of a perfectly tuned analog over a mouse.

This is a fact: if you did your analog right, you don't need aim assist. If your game needs aim assist you did something WRONG.
 

elenarie

Game Developer
Verified
Jun 10, 2018
9,794
I don't actually own BFV so I don't know how the settings are explained in-game, but it does admittedly sound like something that would be difficult to explain in text. A cursory glance at the BF forums told me that there is a lot of confusion about what the setting means, and that one of your devs advocated for not having it in the game in the first place.

It does seem to me like the settings might expose the users to too much complexity, for little to no benefit. I'm assuming DICE isn't the only dev compensating for varying FOV values, but I've never seen this setting anywhere else, even in games that require far more precision from players.

There are explanations on the right side of the screen in BFV. :) And there are a crap load of settings in BFV.

Perhaps we could do a better job at explaining these settings in the next one.

D0bFia7X4AAc2eE.jpg


j1xf286df6231.png
 
May 18, 2018
588
Couldn't you have mapped jump to B as well then?
"Oh, no, that activates the single-use enchanted pocket watch you get 17 hours in."
This makes me so mad! You couldn't use got damn...Start for this one time special use? I gotta jump by clicking R3 or some shit so I can easily use an item that will only work in 5 places in the game
 

elenarie

Game Developer
Verified
Jun 10, 2018
9,794
Battlefield V also comes close as it has a decent default configuration for its controls and a similar degree of options to those offered in Respawn's games, but they're all laid out and explained quite poorly. Plus, there's no obvious place to test your control configuration.

Feedback noted. Will see if we can do something about this going forward.
 

Deleted member 8860

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,525
So is this just about FPS/TPS games?

Apart from the indie game hypothetical, it seems that all the examples are those kinds of shooters.
 

Scruffy8642

Member
Jan 24, 2020
2,849
Honestly, after playing some shooters on handhelds, I think Gyro/motion-assisted aiming should be a option on everything, and it works surprisingly well on controllers. First experienced it with Breath of the Wild's bow and arrow aiming and it works damn well, even with the pro controller. Then on Vita with KZ mercenary and Uncharted, they both control better than most console shooters because you can use motion to make fine adjustments. Seems like the perfect option for shooters to make up for what analogue sticks lack, and it's just really shocking that's it's not more of a thing, even with devs that have done it before on handhelds! There's just no reason it shouldn't be a thing.
 

Älg

Banned
May 13, 2018
3,178
There are explanations on the right side of the screen in BFV. :) And there are a crap load of settings in BFV.

Perhaps we could do a better job at explaining these settings in the next one.

That's actually great! Definitely something I think more games should do :) Although I think there is also a case to be made for reducing complexity to some degree. I think DICE games have really great UX in general, but sometimes it can get bit overwhelming with all the options and I wonder if they're all really necessary. Of course it's really tough to decide what should and what shouldn't be exposed to the user, but I feel as if the "Coefficient" setting is one of those options that could be removed to reduce confusion at almost no cost to usability.
 

platypotamus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,350
I thought this thread was gonna be about the disastrous industry wide move of melee combat controls from face buttons to shoulder buttons
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,311
I thought this was going to be about how the modern video game controller has way too many buttons on it, which is huge barrier to entry for anyone who hasn't been playing games for a long time. 2 analog sticks + a D-Pad, 2 system buttons, 4 face buttons, 4 shoulder buttons, plus 2 click the analog stick buttons.
 

Interframe

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
213
Nintendo got it right with gyro + analog control on consoles, its the closest thing you'll ever get to the precision of using a mouse with a console game controller (even if its not perfectly equal to it). Not sure why the rest of the industry hasn't caught up to this on consoles. Probably the weird backlash devs think they will get from the "core" gamers who are obsessed with analog-only controls and hate the words "motion control" as a relic left over from the Wii-era.
 
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Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
After playing Sniper Elite on the Switch with Gyro, that's now my preferred choice of gaming controls.

I think the biggest issue with controls in general is that the D-pad and other buttons require you to take your thumbs off the sticks, which limits the things you can do at once. Doom Eternal binds dash to X and that's unplayable on higher difficulties.
 

I KILL PXLS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,517
Excellent post OP. No lies detected. The very first thing I do when starting a game is set up the controls (either to my Razer Orbweaver or my Elite controller). Nothing is more frustrating than looking through the settings and having to test each one because you're not sure exactly what they do, and as someone who prefers bumper jumper or at least jump off of the face buttons, it's annoying when I come across games without button remapping. Hell, I still come across games today that don't even offer a bumper jumper configuration in their limited controller configuration options.
 

laxu

Member
Nov 26, 2017
2,782
After playing Sniper Elite on the Switch with Gyro, that's now my preferred choice of gaming controls.

I think the biggest issue with controls in general is that the D-pad and other buttons require you to take your thumbs off the sticks, which limits the things you can do at once. Doom Eternal binds dash to X and that's unplayable on higher difficulties.

This is why I feel grip buttons would be important for all console controllers. The current solutions of Xbox Elite controller and the DS4 addon are half-baked because they don't add buttons, just move existing ones to the back. Having those extra buttons is very useful.
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
I mean maybe I'm misreading but I'm pretty sure that post was "Controls are garbage because devs can't animate rather than intent and I like it like that."
It's not that devs can't animate but that the bar for animation has increased so much that it sometimes gets in the way of tighter control. A good example is Jedi Fallen Order where there's a big struggle between how the animations can blend together and what is telegraphed and what feels responsive. You want your characters to move realistically but you also want it to feel intuitive to use, but having to meet both standards is hard, and my argument was that for analog control you're reducing that lack of responsiveness whereas a mouse demands it's there immediately.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,151
United Kingdom
It's not that devs can't animate but that the bar for animation has increased so much that it sometimes gets in the way of tighter control. A good example is Jedi Fallen Order where there's a big struggle between how the animations can blend together and what is telegraphed and what feels responsive. You want your characters to move realistically but you also want it to feel intuitive to use, but having to meet both standards is hard, and my argument was that for analogue control you're reducing that lack of responsiveness whereas a mouse demands it's there immediately.

I think the fact that some games offer both mouse and keyboard together with controller controls on different platforms throws into question this hypothesis.

Clearly, animation is not the issue if the responsiveness on PC is tweaked for immediacy with M&KB. Evidently, the issue is with how the controller controls are configured and I think that's simply a function of the inherent limitation of analogue stick controls; they're fundamentally imprecise.

Gyro controls combined with pointer controls on PS Move were so much more superior, especially for first person games, that I don't understand why they didn't take off last gen.
 

Scarf

Member
Oct 27, 2017
402
After getting used to the Advanced Control Settings in Apex (and Titanfall 2), I can't play anything else on console.

I use KontrolFreeks on my right stick which gives you a lot more control when aiming if you can ramp up the sensitivity, customize the response curve to linear, remove the aim acceleration and lessen the deadzone. Which you can't do in any other game that I know of.

After playing exclusively on consoles the past +20 years, I'm switching to PC just because of this reason. With reWASD you can customize the controls just the way you want them. You can even map the Elite 2 back paddles as separate buttons. reWASD even supports gyro if that's your thing.
 
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OP
OP
Alek

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,467
After getting used to the Advanced Control Settings in Apex (and Titanfall 2), I can't play anything else on console.

I use KontrolFreeks on my right stick which gives you a lot more control when aiming if you can ramp up the sensitivity, customize the response curve to linear, remove the aim acceleration and lessen the deadzone. Which you can't do in any other game that I know of.

After playing exclusively on consoles the past +20 years, I'm switching to PC just because of this reason. With reWASD you can customize the controls just the way you want them. You can even map the Elite 2 back paddles as separate buttons. reWASD even supports gyro if that's your thing.

I don't use ALC on Apex but I do enjoy how that game feels, I also use a control freak on the right stick.




I think my accuracy is way better than most console players. I mean... I know it is, my overall KDR on Apex Legends is around 5.0, and I think a big part of that is accuracy. But for a lot of players, I think aiming is very difficult with dual sticks especially in a game like Apex where you have to track the target for sustained periods of time.

I do think people talk about dual analog aim as if it's inherently terrible though, as if it's impossible to be accurate with without using extreme aim assist, or implementing some sort of gyro control. I don't feel that way.

I'm happy for games to have more options but I think while current controls with dual analog are often, not all that great (see issues in OP), then something like gyro aim could become a scape goat for poor controls. Paladins is maybe a good example, the default control configurations and options with which to tune them are terrible, and layering gyro controls onto that isn't helpful. Gyro controls in and of themselves are complex and need to be implemented with care, in conjunction with a good configuration for the sticks.
 
OP
OP
Alek

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,467
Feedback noted. Will see if we can do something about this going forward.

Thanks for listening elenarie

I think something that would be super cool would be if at least within a single publisher, you had some sort of uniformity between the settings and descriptions of those settings. So that players could say 'On Apex I like to play like this, let's set that up here'.

In general I think Respawns approach to the settings is a little bit better than Dices' but both are industry leading in terms of the flexibility they provide for players. While the settings in Battlefield V are very clearly in-depth, I think Respawn do a better job in a few areas.
  • I think that protecting new players from messing with things they don't need to (rather than just hovering over 'advanced settings' you have to actively enable 'advanced look controls' which contains another menu). Additionally I think that things like independent scope sensitivities should be in some sort of drop down menu, else it risks overwhelming player.
  • I think Respawn's descriptions are a little clearer, but the accompanied visualisations for things like the Response curve are the icing on the cake!
  • Some of the language in Battlefield V is a little more confusing than in Apex, but the language in Apex could be improved too. Apex has wording like 'ADS ramp up time' which I'm not sure is all that clear. Fortnite replaces the word 'ramp' with the term 'boost' which I think might have more inherent meaning to players.
  • And as I mentioned before, something that's a bit more work to implement is having a safe space to practice your aim. In Battlefield you'd have to load up a campaign level but a campaign level might not be ideal because there's often all sorts of consequences to shooting your gun (e.g. people come and kill you). Apex has the 'firing range' which is pretty nice.
In Battlefield V, I do think having the option for 'uniform soldier aiming' is cool, but I think that option might be just 'linear' in Apex Legends. It's hard to say which is which since there's a fair mismatch between the language used across the two games.

So is this just about FPS/TPS games?

Apart from the indie game hypothetical, it seems that all the examples are those kinds of shooters.

Mostly in terms of the analog stick configuration, since those games require the most precision on the sticks.

But in terms of custom remapping, that applies to any game.

I remember being unhappy with Bloodborns default control layout on my first playthrough. I remember being frustrated that I couldn't keep control of the camera (keep my thumb on the right stick) whilst also rolling. I sought a means to remap the controls but there's none offered in game.

I remapped the game with the accessibility options on the OS level and it was a big improvement to how the camera controlled in fights, because I was always in control of it. No longer was the camera pointing at the wrong direction whenever I rolled or sprinted away whilst not locked on to the enemy. It's great.

Gravity Rush 2 is another example, I suppose it's neither an FPS or TPS but it has elements of a third person shooter and the default mapping offers no means in which to rectify it's relatively awful control layout. Particularly it expects you to constantly move the camera towards enemies and then either press circle to throw an object at them, or square to kick at them. Going between the analog control and face buttons literally constantly, makes it feel unfluid. Imagine playing Uncharted but you have to shoot your gun with the X button? It's not a good default layout, it doesn't feel fluid and as always, the lack of custom remapping makes it inaccessible to a lot of players with disabilities. Again, you can alleviate this in the OS level remapping but that fucks up the control across all of the games menus, and makes all of the in-game button prompts inaccurate.
 
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elenarie

Game Developer
Verified
Jun 10, 2018
9,794
I think something that would be super cool would be if at least within a single publisher, you had some sort of uniformity between the settings and descriptions of those settings. So that players could say 'On Apex I like to play like this, let's set that up here'.

Yea for sure, that would be nice. We started up some initiatives recently regarding standards across our games as a company, which will improve and standardise things a bit more. Currently focusing on accessibility for people with disabilities, but it could expand to cover other areas in the future.

Can't really promise stuff, but I agree, it would be for everyone's benefit.
 
OP
OP
Alek

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,467
Yea for sure, that would be nice. We started up some initiatives recently regarding standards across our games as a company, which will improve and standardise things a bit more. Currently focusing on accessibility for people with disabilities, but it could expand to cover other areas in the future.

Can't really promise stuff, but I agree, it would be for everyone's benefit.

Yeah of course. I understand you can't promise anything, Dice is a big machine etc, lots of moving parts and whatnot.

Just to add though, that these as well as benefiting everyone else, these options are accessibility for people with disabilities too. I'm sure you're already aware but accessibility and the control settings are not separate things, so I think in that sense if your doing uniformity for accessibility settings, that should include controls and how that information is presented.

As an example, being able to easily remap your buttons or find right sensitivity all feeds in to being able to play the game comfortably. I used an example a little earlier where settings for 'deadzones' is an accessibility option that could help players with motor difficulties (e.g. tremors) avoid accidentally sending inputs they don't want to, to the game.

If you look at the options that players with disabilities are using most frequently, the majority of players are looking to customise the controls in some way https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-94277-3_40

I actually don't work as a games user researcher full time anymore. I'm working on a PhD centred around understanding the experiences of players with disabilities, and designing accessible games. So I'm super passionate about both sides of this, both the accessibility for players with disabilities angle, and improving games for everyone.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,295
Unless it's a snappy 60fps Shooter I think the "weightiness" on analog controls are an improvement over Mouse & Keyboard, and we know that most of the time the "weightiness" is a result of bad animation-cycles and blending as opposed to a desire to make it heavy. I think there is so much emphasis on making controls correspond to realistic movement and motion-captured animation now that developers are simply willing to sacrifice a bit of user control to achieve a better looking game.
ND, perhaps one of the developers most known for "weighty" controls. Have gone on record to say that one of the main reasons they're investing so much into TLOU2's animation system is so that they don't have to sacrifice input response as much as before.
 

elenarie

Game Developer
Verified
Jun 10, 2018
9,794
Just to add though, that these as well as benefiting everyone else, these options are accessibility for people with disabilities too. I'm sure you're already aware but accessibility and the control settings are not separate things, so I think in that sense if your doing uniformity for accessibility settings, that should include controls and how that information is presented.

Yea, of course. A bit different focus right now, though, we're trying to get the STT and TTS underlying backend technologies set up, for example, something that would benefit all of our future games. There are so many things one could do, it comes down to prioritisation, and that's our focus for now.

I think at this point we have fully adjustable everything we can think of in BFV, but I am sure that we are not covering everything. Funny enough, we added some massive improvements around customisability of deadzones and trigger pressures based on some feedback from this forum. The presentation could indeed use some improvements, no doubt about that.
 

DavidDesu

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,718
Glasgow, Scotland
Totally agree OP. Indeed I don't think I've played a FPS that controlled well for me since Halo 1 on OG Xbox, Rainbow Six on that console as well. I think Destiny does a good job for the Little I played it controls weren't an issue. Far too many other games just never quite feel right. It's like they're all missing something and a half baked execution is the best they can do, when other games like the aforementioned got this stuff eight YEARS ago.

Also a totally different genre but racing games on console controllers have a shit ton of issues too. Project Cars 1 was actually unplayable on the default controls for me. I tweaked and I tweaked them but could never get them quite right. They'd either be too sensitive or too laggy. Never a happy medium. On the other hand the Gran Turismo games have always had amazing controller settings. Steering is responsive and it just does what you want it and expect it to do. You fee in control. These games coming over from PC like P Cars just never got it. I don't know what they're doing wrong and they clearly don't know either. It's disappointing how these isssues just trundle on and on and developers hand wave away any complaints rather than make proper attempts to fix them. I don't think it is too much to ask they spend more time tweaking settings or opening up more options when the user base clearly states their issues and solutions. One example, the F1 games on console, when using controller, have for years had this artificial steering sensitive issue. You literallly cannot counter steer properly (switching steering quickly from one direction to the next). On controller when you're steering leftbut need to quickly steer right the game literally pauses at the centre point for a split second before continuing to turn right. You need to control the car swinging out of control and it is basically impossible and that delay makes it even worse. People playing with wheels have no such imposition placed on their controls. They can steer past the centre point with no pause. I presume they did this for some reason to help novice players to prevent the cars being too twitchy, but for people like me who can play really well on analogue controls it actually ruins the game for me. I love so much about the games but I can't play with controller. I can play online GT races absolutely fine on a controller. It's an artificial limitation and something a handful of people keep complaining about for years but Codemasters never thought they could put a switch in to remove this for people happy to do that. It's totally artificial. It's mind boggling.
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,990
I agree with you that controls are a problem in console games… but the fundamental issue is the controller design itself. Dual-analog belongs in the '90s.

That said, deadzones and acceleration are there for a purpose: mainly to make things easier for most people.
Most people don't have very fine control over the analog stick, so acceleration allows them to make smaller corrections when the input is not being held to turn, without making the turning speed very slow. And deadzones mean that small or accidental inputs are ignored by the game.
Deadzones are also required by analog sticks, since they all start to drift over time. Of course I agree that it should all be adjustable, with "off" being one of those options.

Acceleration is the bane of my existence though.
Not because it bothers me too much on an analog stick (I try to avoid them as much as possible) but because it works horribly if you try to map the controller's right analog stick to a touchpad or gyro, and many games which use it on their analog sticks often end up applying it to the mouse input now too.
Even high profile games like Resident Evil 2 and 3 remakes are making this mistake - and they have deadzones on the mouse input too!


I just wish all console games that have a PC port would let you remap controls. They have to have button remapping in because of PC. Same goes for FoV options as well.
Many games on PC lack any kind of button remapping for controllers too.
Steam has a feature which lets you remap controls for games, similar to the system-level controls found on PS4/XB1.
The difference is that it goes far more in-depth than simple button remapping, and is configured on a per-game (and per-controller) basis rather than system-wide.
It has the same problem of not changing the in-game prompts to match though. But there is an exception: games which are actually built to use the Steam Input API do change their in-game prompts to match the remapping, and can also have different states for things like gameplay and menus, so the gameplay remapping doesn't mess up control of the menus.
This is how I hope inputs are handled across all next-gen systems.

RDR2 is a great recent example of horrible controls on console and exchanging it for a different set of problems on PC. On PC the best compromise is controller with gyro aim because it gives you the analog controls and almost mouse-like accuracy. Keyboard controls are not great as there are a shitton of mappings. On consoles you can either aim at medium to long distance or short distance comfortably, not both at the same time because it's impossible to set the controls up for both. Makes shooting a complete mess.
I'm not sure why it is that Rockstar does this, but controls which are contextual on console seem to be mapped to individual keys in their PC ports.
I haven't played RDR2 at all, but what little I played of GTA V was horrible. For example: the on-foot movement controls used WASD like most games, but then you had to use a completely separate set of controls; e.g. IJKL to control movement when you are in a plane, and they cannot both be mapped to the same keys.

BOTW gyro controls is the best controls for aiming, unless you have a mouse.
I am a big fan of gyro aiming when using controllers - especially on PC where you have a lot of options to customize it - but Breath of the Wild's implementation is not great.
It has a bit of a deadzone and does not allow for very fine control; like playing games with a low-resolution mouse.


I don't mean that it's bad, just that things can get even better. It's still far better than using analog sticks.

I thought this thread was gonna be about the disastrous industry wide move of melee combat controls from face buttons to shoulder buttons
Ideally games which use the right stick for aiming wouldn't be using face buttons outside of the menus, but current console controllers aren't really designed to facilitate that.

This is a fact: if you did your analog right, you don't need aim assist. If your game needs aim assist you did something WRONG.
For high-level play… there's maybe an argument to be had there, but most people are going to have a better time with a well-tuned aim assist - and probably don't even notice it.

Unless it's a snappy 60fps Shooter I think the "weightiness" on analog controls are an improvement over Mouse & Keyboard […]
I am someone who loved killzone 2 and it's heavy aiming.
Call it what it is: input lag.
It's very easy to add input lag if you somehow prefer that. All games should be trying to minimize it as much as possible though.
 

raketenrolf

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,200
Germany
Agree. Especially stick deadzones, sensitivity and acceleration should be a system wide setting along with complete button customization on a per game basis. Some stuff is unplayable to me due to large deadzones.
 

Nude_Tayne

Member
Jan 8, 2018
3,666
earth
It's a shame console makers haven't figured out something better by now. Relying on angular displacement of an analog stick instead of 1-to-1 movement of something (such as a mouse) will always, always be really bad for functions like aiming. They're too hung up on sticking to a controller design that has roots from 20-30 years ago. I've often wondered how hard it would really be to come up with a decent controller design that, instead of a second analog stick, incorporates something like a track pad you'd use with your thumb. It would give you wider range of movement than a stick for more accuracy, and aiming would directly correlate to your thumb movement like it does with a mouse instead of indirectly to thumb movement through a stick's angular displacement. Even if it meant a larger controller or a 2 piece controller, so what?

I'm currently playoff Doom Eternal on PS4 and aiming just fucking sucks. Nothing too unique about it compared to other console FPSes but it's particularly difficult in a really frenetic game like Eternal.
 

Scarf

Member
Oct 27, 2017
402
I don't think that you can play any FPS game without aim assist with a controller.

Sure, in slow paced games like R6 Siege it doesn't really benefit you at all if your aim is on point but there's a reason even the best of the best pad players (dude named Calamiti is probably the best pad player on Apex, he plays on PC with a controller) use aim assist on Apex Legends for example. I'd like to see a person doing well in that game without any aim assist. It's just not doable.


It's a shame console makers haven't figured out something better by now. Relying on angular displacement of an analog stick instead of 1-to-1 movement of something (such as a mouse) will always, always be really bad for functions like aiming. They're too hung up on sticking to a controller design that has roots from 20-30 years ago. I've often wondered how hard it would really be to come up with a decent controller design that, instead of a second analog stick, incorporates something like a track pad you'd use with your thumb. It would give you wider range of movement than a stick for more accuracy, and aiming would directly correlate to your thumb movement like it does with a mouse instead of indirectly to thumb movement through a stick's angular displacement. Even if it meant a larger controller or a 2 piece controller, so what?

I'm currently playoff Doom Eternal on PS4 and aiming just fucking sucks. Nothing too unique about it compared to other console FPSes but it's particularly difficult in a really frenetic game like Eternal.


Linear response curve without any aim acceleration or deadzone with KontrolFreek stick extender is as good as it gets when playing with a pad. Just watch Calamiti's videos playing Apex. That guy is unreal. He uses linear response curve without any aim acceleration.

With reWASD on PC you can emulate mouse inputs and map them to your right stick 1:1 Linear response curve takes some time to get used to but once you get used to it, anything else feels like ass.
 
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Shpeshal Nick

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,856
Melbourne, Australia
I agree on remappable controls. How that's not an industry standard by now is beyond me.

Having said that, at least we now have the fall back of doing it on a system level (as you pointed out). In the case of the Elite controller you can use profiles for games you play a lot too.

PlayStation and Xbox both support mouse and keyboard now and the number of games using those options grows all the time. Microsoft also has the adaptive controller that lets you basically use whatever method you want. While I understand some of your complaints, this is arguably the time that seems the least pertinent to complain about it given we actually have options now?

it was a far more relevant complaint prior to this generation.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,530
I wholeheartedly agree with games not explaining configuration options enough. Like why not explain what these things do? And that goes beyond just controls. What is FXAA vs TSAA? What is shadow mapping? Why should I need to watch DF videos or google a ton of terms to figure out what menu options mean?
 

JoJo'sDentCo

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,535
I love this OP. I just don't get developers sometimes. Even Naughty Dog was 'surprised' when people didn't like the UC3 aiming.
 

laxu

Member
Nov 26, 2017
2,782
I'm not sure why it is that Rockstar does this, but controls which are contextual on console seem to be mapped to individual keys in their PC ports.
I haven't played RDR2 at all, but what little I played of GTA V was horrible. For example: the on-foot movement controls used WASD like most games, but then you had to use a completely separate set of controls; e.g. IJKL to control movement when you are in a plane, and they cannot both be mapped to the same keys.

GTA V plane controls are the way they are because of the helicopter controls. They are fairly complex as you have strafing sideways and up/down in WASD and turning the helicopter. Console controller manages those with dual sticks, triggers and shoulder buttons but on keyboard they become this crazy setup. I guess they considered mouse control for those to not work so great.
 
OP
OP
Alek

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,467
I love this OP. I just don't get developers sometimes. Even Naughty Dog was 'surprised' when people didn't like the UC3 aiming.

The weird thing about Naughty Dogs issue was that in the multiplayer the sticks felt fine, but in the singleplayer, they were stiff and unresponsive, and they didn't notice the difference between the two.

Then they had to get community feedback to help them fix it... but they really didn't need that. They just needed to take the multiplayer configuration over to singleplayer.
 

AfropunkNyc

Member
Nov 15, 2017
3,958
Going from the Steam controller on PC to the PS4 was a chaotic mess. I had to readjust the way i play first person shooters and third person shooters. Dual analog stick has to be the most worst and dated way of playing games. I just cant don't enjoy using them. As i game on the PS4 i just kept wishing i was using the steam controller with gyro to play these games. Dual analog sticks are the worst way of gaming in shooters now a day IMO.
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,990
It's a shame console makers haven't figured out something better by now. Relying on angular displacement of an analog stick instead of 1-to-1 movement of something (such as a mouse) will always, always be really bad for functions like aiming. They're too hung up on sticking to a controller design that has roots from 20-30 years ago. I've often wondered how hard it would really be to come up with a decent controller design that, instead of a second analog stick, incorporates something like a track pad you'd use with your thumb. It would give you wider range of movement than a stick for more accuracy, and aiming would directly correlate to your thumb movement like it does with a mouse instead of indirectly to thumb movement through a stick's angular displacement. Even if it meant a larger controller or a 2 piece controller, so what?

I'm currently playoff Doom Eternal on PS4 and aiming just fucking sucks. Nothing too unique about it compared to other console FPSes but it's particularly difficult in a really frenetic game like Eternal.
Ah yes, if only someone had thought to do that…
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ss_1e6bcf000b0d80ec75kok6y.jpg


Unfortunately the Steam Controller was yet another example of how resistant to change many people playing games are.
I would have thought PC gamers would be more receptive to the idea, but the ones already interested in using controllers seemed very resistant to it.

Mini Trackball for aiming.
Pleasssssssssseeeeeeeee
Trackballs are a bad idea for controllers.
  1. They're low resolution.
  2. They're high maintenance and require regular cleaning.
  3. They have limited functionality.
The Steam Controller's trackball emulation was better.

GTA V plane controls are the way they are because of the helicopter controls. They are fairly complex as you have strafing sideways and up/down in WASD and turning the helicopter. Console controller manages those with dual sticks, triggers and shoulder buttons but on keyboard they become this crazy setup. I guess they considered mouse control for those to not work so great.
Hm, maybe that's the reason why, but I thought I remembered a lot of the controls being mapped to the same button on a controller while they required individual keys for each action on a keyboard.
Either way, KB&M tends to control quite badly in Rockstar games.