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BWoog

Member
Oct 27, 2017
38,264
It's just like the GOP here in the US, you can love the fact that Trump is gone but there's always some asshole who's just as bad if not worse waiting to take his place.
 

Deleted member 2802

Community Resetter
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
33,729
It's just like the GOP here in the US, you can love the fact that Trump is gone but there's always some asshole who's just as bad if not worse waiting to take his place.
šŸƒā€ā™‚ļø
josh-hawley-0805211.jpg
 

Fatoy

Member
Mar 13, 2019
7,220
It's just like the GOP here in the US, you can love the fact that Trump is gone but there's always some asshole who's just as bad if not worse waiting to take his place.
If Sunak gets the nod, it should definitely be a warning to the US that putting a more polished face on the same rancid policies works.

(For what it's worth, he's not exactly wrong about the cyber security portion, but everything else seems like plain ol' xenophobia.)
 
OP
OP
Ocarina_117

Ocarina_117

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,562
If Sunak gets the nod, it should definitely be a warning to the US that putting a more polished face on the same rancid policies works.

(For what it's worth, he's not exactly wrong about the cyber security portion, but everything else seems like plain ol' xenophobia.)
Do you mind sharing about the cyber security portion? I'm not really well versed into it, but a family member of mine brought up Tik Tok of all things during the debate last night.
 

Maxximo

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
636
If Sunak gets the nod, it should definitely be a warning to the US that putting a more polished face on the same rancid policies works.

(For what it's worth, he's not exactly wrong about the cyber security portion, but everything else seems like plain ol' xenophobia.)

Well after the Snowden files probably pointing a finger about cyber warfare is a bit hypocritical.

When you "allies" spy on you competitors will obviously do the same...maybe.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,596
What does he mean by "stop China from taking over our Universities?" Is he talking about all the exchange students? Because i'm pretty sure they're a massive source of revenue from British schools.
 

Ruddles

Member
Oct 17, 2018
349
Xenophobia is bad and Tories are scum.

That said, I work in a U.K. university and we go out of our way to cosy up to China, we have a lot of Chinese students here, and it's accepted that the journals we publish our research in don't acknowledge the existence of Taiwan. It's also extremely frowned upon to mention anything like Uighurs or Tiannamem Square.

I don't know. It makes me feel EXTREMELY icky that we take so much China money and joint ventures. It's possible to respect the Chinese peoples but recognise that the Government of their country does many truly evil things and maybe we shouldn't be looking the other way?

Am I going to be accused of taking a 'both sides' position if I say that I hate Tory scum but ALSO happen to think that China as a country is an extreme problem that the world has no idea how to deal with?
 

Timbuktu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,233
(For what it's worth, he's not exactly wrong about the cyber security portion, but everything else seems like plain ol' xenophobia.)

Not sure about that, Confucius Institutes are an instrument of the CCP and the Chinese embassy is known to actively interfere with academia. Confucius Institutes officials confiscating papers that mentioned Taiwan at an academic conference, it's been know for a while. With what has happened academic freedom in HK, I would be wary as well. Sunak doesn't have good intentions bring this up for the PM contest, but the issue itself isn't without merit.
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,553
Not surprising. Xenophobia is a classic start to dehumanization which is what will be essential for the intended coming conflict with China.

All this is just part and parcel really, and not only in Britain
 

MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,499
Even worse that Liz Truss, who is more or less doing the same thing, is likely going to win this. The absolute state of this country right now.
 

slider

Member
Nov 10, 2020
2,712
I know it's not only focused on China but Richard Moore (head of MI6) spoke in broad terms about the threat from China. I guess that intelligence will inform government decisions and posture (although electioneering is another thing of course).

I'm on my phone so will edit it in later but a YouTube search of "CNN", "Aspen", "fireside chat", and/or "Richard Moore" should throw up the approximately 45 minute video from the Aspen Security Forum.
 

phonicjoy

Banned
Jun 19, 2018
4,305
What does he mean by "stop China from taking over our Universities?" Is he talking about all the exchange students? Because i'm pretty sure they're a massive source of revenue from British schools.

Apparently the confucius institutes are situated on uni campusses and partially funded by the CCCP.

So he's not wrong there.

Cybersecurity has been an issue for a while.

Framing it as "China" and not the CCCP is wrong, but western countries should be carefull when they are playing into hands of a regime that practices genocide.
 

Leafshield

Member
Nov 22, 2019
2,934
The points are expanded on here. I don't think the point about universities is entirely wrong- it's not about students, it's about the Confucius Institutes.

Sunak to promise curbs on China as UKā€™s ā€˜biggest long-term threatā€™ | Conservative leadership | The Guardian

Leadership contender says he will close 30 Mandarin teaching programmes to restrain Beijingā€™s soft power

The current government has taken a harder stance against Xi Jinping's administration over the crackdown on civil liberties in Hong Kong, including a restrictive national security law and electoral reforms in the former British colony. Mutual sanctions have been in place over China's treatment of Uyghurs in its far-western Xinjiang region.

In an attempt to move the focus in the Tory leadership race on to national security and international affairs, Sunak is expected to say on Monday that China "is the biggest-long-term threat to Britain and the world's economic and national security", citing the views of the director general of MI5 and head of the FBI.
"At home, they are stealing our technology and infiltrating our universities," the former chancellor will say. "And abroad, they are propping up Putin's fascist invasion of Ukraine by buying his oil and attempting to bully their neighbours, including Taiwan."
Sunak will also criticise the Chinese government for "saddling developing countries with insurmountable debt and using this to seize their assets or hold a diplomatic gun to their heads", as well as torturing, detaining and indoctrinating their own citizens in Xinjiang and Hong Kong.

In a slight against Truss, Sunak will add: "Enough is enough. For too long, politicians in Britain and across the west have rolled out the red carpet and turned a blind eye to China's nefarious activity and ambitions."
He said he will ban all 30 of China's Confucius Institutes in the UK, claiming Beijing's soft power is enhanced by taxpayer-funded Mandarin teaching in schools being channelled through the organisations.
The controversial bodies have been criticised before for influencing academic freedom in the UK, and have been called "outdated" by campaigners. They are effectively joint ventures between a host university, a partner university in China, and the Chinese International Education Foundation (CIEF), a Beijing-based organisation.
CIEF in Beijing has been contacted for comment.

That then links through to here-
New China Research Group research shows that British schools and universities are reliant on a network of 30 Confucius Institutes - the highest number of any country - to coordinate teaching of Mandarin, funding and expertise.

  • New Confucius Institutes are still opening in the UK. The Open University opened the "world's first Online Confucius Institute" just last month (May 2022).
  • Almost all UK government spending on Mandarin language teaching at schools - with at least Ā£27m allocated from 2015 to 2024 - is channelled through university-based Confucius Institutes.
  • The number of Confucius Institutes in the UK and their tight integration across the education system is unusual amongst our peers.
  • Governments in countries including the US, Netherlands and Germany have discouraged their universities from renewing partnerships with Confucius Institutes, or introduced mandatory financial disclosures.
  • Given that Confucius Institutes are so closely tied to China's Ministry of Education, the UK's approach is outdated.

And then that last 'approach is outdated' links to here, which is presumably the meat of what's actually being raised as an issue-
Concerns around Confucius Institutes
Concerns about the presence of CCP-funded organisations on campus should be carefully balanced against the benefits they provide to language teaching and uptake.
ā— State links: Confucius Institutes are effectively run as an arm of the state, supervised by the Ministry of Education. Given the tightening environment in China, it is not inconceivable that the CLEC would seek a firmer line on academic freedom abroad. This could force UK universities into an uncomfortable position.
ā— Level and quality of teaching: Confucius Institutes usually focus on beginner level courses, which minimises the risk of interference. However, this also caps their usefulness in developing China expertise. At university level, the teaching quality of CIs is not particularly highly regarded by Sinologists. Four of the UK's leading China centres have no Confucius Institute (Oxford, Cambridge, King's and SOAS). Five universities (St Andrew's, Birmingham, Chester, Regent's, Portsmouth) have recently begun offering Chinese Studies courses without a Confucius Institute.
ā— Hub for UK schools: Many Confucius Institutes have developed strong ties to local schools through the Confucius Classroom system. The provision of language assistants by Confucius Institutes is seen as a high-value contribution.
ā— Interference: Confucius Institute teachers are approved and evaluated by a central body, and warned not to cover political issues, such as Taiwan and Tibet. There are a few examples of blatant interference, such as the removal of documents mentioning Taiwan at a Confucius Institute-organised conference at the University of Nottingham or the removal of references to Chinese dissidents in 2017. But the most high-profile controversies have happened in other countries: one of Germany's largest publishing houses claimed that the Chinese consul general in Dusseldorf forced the cancellation of an online talk on Xi Jinping by two German journalists at an event which had been organised by the Confucius institutes in Hanover and Duisburg-Essen.
ā— Self-censorship: A more thorny problem is the perception of self-censorship or monitoring of students on campus. There have been several complaints from both
7 Northern Ireland Bureau China 2020-2022 Strategy Report (2020)
3

Chinese and Hong Kong students based in the UK about the perceived threat of monitoring on campus by individuals employed by the CCP who work for a United Front organisation.

As such, I don't really find the raising of concerns about our universities, coverage of Taiwan, Tibet and the Uighurs etc, and the safety of Chinese and HK students in the UK to be a problem, concerns about cyber-security isn't either. The problem is that, as usual, the whole thing has been simplified down to twitter-friendly and newspaper-headline-friendly dogwhistles, which sucks.

I note that when referring to Russia the (swimming in Russian cash) Tories and our press are far more likely to take aim at Putin, whereas with China they won't call out the CCP.
 
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MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,499
The issue is, as someone has already pointed out, framing all of this as a problem with "China", rather than the Chinese Government or CCP specifically.

We should absolutely be pushing back on the CCP's influence in our schools and public life in general, but getting the public riled up about "China" does nothing but fuel sinophobia. It's irresponsible at best.
 
Oct 30, 2017
15,278
Instead of calling out the CCP directly (which I guess is because they're too chickenshit to do it) they generalize it as China and implicitly (or explicitly, I give them no benefit of the doubt) promote more phobic attitudes. Like, if the CCP is such a threat then the first step should be calling their administration out by name. Don't hide behind an entire country.
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,553
The issue is, as someone has already pointed out, framing all of this as a problem with "China", rather than the Chinese Government or CCP specifically.

We should absolutely be pushing back on the CCP's influence in our schools and public life in general, but getting the public riled up about "China" does nothing but fuel sinophobia. It's irresponsible at best.
I think politicians go for things like this bc they think people will just go straight for phobia anyways without the ability to distinguish government from people.

And tbh, sadly I think generally that is the way people operate now.

But also, these politicians are also generally actually bad people for sure

Right. But I'm not surprised since we live in a world where people like Candace Owens exists.

Conservatism is very fascistic these days, everywhere you look.

Yeah I kind of expect POC to have to be *more* racist to stand out if they're running in certain parties.
 

LinkStrikesBack

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,351
The points are expanded on here. I don't think the point about universities is entirely wrong- it's not about students, it's about the Confucius Institutes.

Sunak to promise curbs on China as UKā€™s ā€˜biggest long-term threatā€™ | Conservative leadership | The Guardian

Leadership contender says he will close 30 Mandarin teaching programmes to restrain Beijingā€™s soft power



That then links through to here-


And then that last 'approach is outdated' links to here, which is presumably the meat of what's actually being raised as an issue-


As such, I don't really find the raising of concerns about our universities and the safety of Chinese and HK students there to be a problem, concerns about cyber-security isn't either, although as usual the whole thing has been simplified down to twitter-friendly and newspaper-headline-friendly dogwhistles which sucks.

The thing they're pushing about the Confucius institutes and not mentioning is it's reciprocal. Several prominent UK universities had organised extensive programs where UK based experts were going abroad to China and teaching their areas of expertise to Chinese students, and vice versa. The UK government are going to fuck up a bunch of initiatives that UK university staff spent a lot of effort organising to chase self serving nonsense.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,051
Does he look in the mirror? Who does he think is next?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,428
User Banned (2 Weeks): Dismissing Concerns of Sinophobia
That's not Sinophobia. We're talking about a country that's literally committing genocide and threatening to invade other countries. It's just using the "criticizing Israel is anti-Semitic" trick but on China. Sinophobia is a real thing and we definitely need to tackle it directly, but this is not Sinophobia.
 

EntelechyFuff

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Nov 19, 2019
10,142
This seems ok, given the context?

I do appreciate the effort by some to distinguish China vs CCP (and I think it's something Era is well served as a community to continue doing) but it's pretty standard geopolitical talk to just say "<country>". The way most talk about Russia's war in Ukraine is a great current example.

I think it's also important that liberal/left-leaning people avoid falling into reactionary thinking. A lot of these posts get really close "Actually, Confucius Institutes are awesome and what cyber-security threat does the CCP pose anyway?" solely because a conservative politician is on record saying the opposite.
 

Nothus

Member
Oct 26, 2017
984
Is this one of his leading policies?
I'm not saying that it's not an issue that should be looked at, but in the middle of rising inflation and a cost of living crisis I really don't think the majority of the British public would consider this a key matter.
 

Apathy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,992
Minorities in conservatives/right wing parties need to realize they are never going to be white.
 

LinkStrikesBack

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,351
Minorities in conservatives/right wing parties need to realize they are never going to be white.

They don't need to be. People like Priti Patel are happy to throw anyone and everyone under the bus, and if that means people who look like themselves, in order for them to gain some self benefit, even if temporary that's no problem whatsoever
 

nekkid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,823
Is this one of his leading policies?
I'm not saying that it's not an issue that should be looked at, but in the middle of rising inflation and a cost of living crisis I really don't think the majority of the British public would consider this a key matter.
I dunno. If the whole thing with Russia is anything to go by then it's absolutely the right thing to not put all our eggs in the basket of another superpower.
 

niaobx

Banned
Aug 3, 2020
1,053
User Banned (2 Weeks): Excusing sinophobia across a series of posts
Wild how people still go for the "akshually it's CCP" thing. Imagine going into any thread on Russia's war crimes and trying to act all "guys please stop saying Russia it's just Russian government" as that is the most important thing. Country with concentration camps and people still on this shit
 

Leafshield

Member
Nov 22, 2019
2,934
Is this one of his leading policies?
I'm not saying that it's not an issue that should be looked at, but in the middle of rising inflation and a cost of living crisis I really don't think the majority of the British public would consider this a key matter.
He's in a leadership race that's examining their policies on everything, as opposed to an election campaigning on a single slogan. Their policies here:
www.theguardian.com

Truss v Sunak: how do Tory PM contenders differ on policy?

What promises are leadership rivals making in terms of economy, climate, education and levelling up?
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,626
The WHOLE reason Chinese students come to UK so much is entirely because of the Tories in the first place. This is what happened:

1) Theresa May abolished the 2 year post study work visa for students in UK in 2012

2) This meant a sizeable portion of potential UK international student population decided to not come to UK because there's no point coming to UK spending Ā£100K and not even being able to make any of that money back

3) Theresa May further tightened work visa requirements that meant even less students managed to stay after studies, even if they had an employer willing to sponsor them

4) The Tories raised the fee cap/got rid of it for international students which led to a massive increase in fee. I paid 11.5K a year for my bachelor's in 2011-2014. If I was starting this year I'd be paying 24K a year for the same course in same university.

5) All this led to UK universities doing deals with Chinese universities that facilitated international student exchange

6) Universities started giving more incentive to Chinese students to come to UK by making the process easier by establishing an infrastructure in China for it.

7) As a "give back" UK universities started to sent UK students to China for exchange year and programs.

8) The Tories wanted this because Chinese students have a higher probability of studying and going back to China than say someone from India.


So like all Tory propaganda, the "problem" they are talking about is something they themseleves caused.

If you wanna make the international student population more diverse then you gotta give the students more incentive to come here by making work visa easier post study, charging a more acceptable fee for European standards etc. And basically doing the same kind of things they've done in China, but elsewhere.


Source: Me. A UK international student from India who was a student for 7 years who's had to experience all the difficult changes brought through in the Tory rule.
 

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,303
It's possible to respect the Chinese peoples but recognize that the Government of their country does many truly evil things and maybe we shouldn't be looking the other way?

Am I going to be accused of taking a 'both sides' position if I say that I hate Tory scum but ALSO happen to think that China as a country is an extreme problem that the world has no idea how to deal with?

It should be possible and necessary.
 

Leafshield

Member
Nov 22, 2019
2,934
Wild how people still go for the "akshually it's CCP" thing. Imagine going into any thread on Russia's war crimes and trying to act all "guys please stop saying Russia it's just Russian government" as that is the most important thing. Country with concentration camps and people still on this shit
I get your point, but this isn't a thread on war crimes by Russian soldiers, or the concentration camps in Xinjiang, it's a thread on a UK politician outlining their policies using 'China' as a overarching dogwhistle when not so long ago anti-Asian attacks were on the rise in the UK. That's why being specific about language matters, when it doesn't take much for this to spiral into consequences for UK-Chinese people here, and then pretty much other Asian people here, due to racists not being known for being specific either. This is all going to be fed to our venomous right-wing press like the Hate Mail who have zero interest in nuance and every interest in blatant racism.

The concerns about cyber-security and how material relating to Tibet, Taiwan etc is handled in our universities are valid as I linked above. But what's being criticised is how that info is packaged and dispersed, stripped of all nuance, by politicians, knowing exactly how the media will use it. It's true that *country name* is used in geopolitics by politicians and people working in politics and the spheres surrounding it know what they mean. Of course they do. But it's also true that some minorities in the UK, particularly Asian ones, suffer more than others due to racist ignorance when people aren't specific about what they reduce to sound bites to be dispersed by the press and social media, as illustrated by the pandemic leading to a rise in racist violence against some minorities here.

www.opendemocracy.net

How the UKā€™s East and South-East Asian communities are fighting COVID-related violence

Migrant and diaspora communities are coming together to respond to a rise in racist violence
 
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Karateka

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,940
Minorities in conservatives/right wing parties need to realize they are never going to be white.
It can't be much about race really, there are nations full of Conservatives that have little to no white people at all. Either they have the (regressive) convictions, or they see the grift.
 

Dervius

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,902
UK
Do you mind sharing about the cyber security portion? I'm not really well versed into it, but a family member of mine brought up Tik Tok of all things during the debate last night.

Universities are constantly targeted by threat actors, many cybercriminals seeking financial again and some that can be attributed to Chinese state-backed groups largely for the purposes of IP theft. It also occurs heavily in industry.

The broader sentiment from Sunak is deplorable, but in isolation to say that universities require cyber security support to defend from the likes of Chinese state actors isn't without merit, though it most certainly isn't only from those groups.
 

supercommodore

Prophet of Truth
Member
Apr 13, 2020
4,190
UK
Minorities in conservatives/right wing parties need to realize they are never going to be white.

A central aim of the Tory party is to maintain the wealth and class status quo in the U.K. If you look at median/mean household wealth by ethnicity in the U.K. you can see why the Tory party appeals to some in the British-Indian community. In 2017 the Tories won 40% of the British-Indian vote.

a6VpJHv.png

(source: ONS)

This Guardian article is a good summary of why the situation is like this.

How did British Indians become so prominent in the Conservative party? | Conservatives | The Guardian

Since Thatcherā€™s day, the Conservatives have held the community up as a model minority, says activist and researcher Neha Shah
 

SanderJK

Member
Oct 31, 2017
474
At least over here in the Netherlands, the Chinese government was found to finance International Law studies through 3 layers of obfuscation ,and the outcoming results just happened to be along the lines of "No Serious Human Rights Violatoin Regarding Ughurs" etcetera.
It took the press asking questions before the University 'realized' they had staff on the take.

So at least on that point, there is serious worry.
 

niaobx

Banned
Aug 3, 2020
1,053
I get your point, but this isn't a thread on war crimes by Russian soldiers, or the concentration camps in Xinjiang, it's a thread on a UK politician outlining their policies using 'China' as a overarching dogwhistle when not so long ago anti-Asian attacks were on the rise in the UK. That's why being specific about language matters, when it doesn't take much for this to spiral into consequences for UK-Chinese people here, and then pretty much other Asian people here, due to racists not being known for being specific either. This is all going to be fed to our venomous right-wing press like the Hate Mail who have zero interest in nuance and every interest in blatant racism.

The concerns about cyber-security and our universities are valid as I linked above, but what's being criticised is how that info is packaged and dispersed, stripped of all nuance, by politicians, knowing exactly how the media will use it. It's true that *country name* is used in geopolitics by politicians and people know what they mean. But it's also true that some minorities in the UK, particularly Asian ones, suffer more than others due to racist ignorance when people aren't specific.

www.opendemocracy.net

How the UKā€™s East and South-East Asian communities are fighting COVID-related violence

Migrant and diaspora communities are coming together to respond to a rise in racist violence

Any violence against innocent people is obviously awful. What I also find awful is how some people seem to live in some alternate reality where actions of country of China should be somehow excused because it's the totally not China, but some nebulous organisation (CCP)
 

Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
17,915
Wild how people still go for the "akshually it's CCP" thing. Imagine going into any thread on Russia's war crimes and trying to act all "guys please stop saying Russia it's just Russian government" as that is the most important thing. Country with concentration camps and people still on this shit

It's actually incredibly important for the AAPI communities that are being targeted in countries like the US and the UK as this sinophobic rhetoric leads to actual physical harm to folks.
 

Leafshield

Member
Nov 22, 2019
2,934
Any violence against innocent people is obviously awful. What I also find awful is how some people seem to live in some alternate reality where actions of country of China should be somehow excused because it's the totally not China, but some nebulous organisation (CCP)
I get your point, but one of these awful things has a consequence of direct, documented harm to innocent people in the UK. The other is a vague accusation of some random online person excusing the conduct of the Chinese government on a computer games board, to nebulous effect. Neither is good but they aren't equivalent in the harm caused, the latter is a matter for moderators, the former can't be undone.
 

Pet

More helpful than the IRS
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,070
SoCal
Shockingly, not really, the BBC provided a platform for both candidates to push sinophobia last night during their debate.

And now it seems a corner stone of Rishi's campaign.

The Tories really are a scummy, nasty party.

View: https://twitter.com/Ready4Rishi/status/1551567683614826496?t=3NcSEafNihRa_0GK-9Yx2g&s=19


BBC has always been trash on China and sinophobic AF, though I wouldn't be surprised if they were similarly trash about all other nonwhite countries. England does have a history of being nasty little fucks to, among many, China, India, etc.
 

pronk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,643
Xenophobia is bad and Tories are scum.

That said, I work in a U.K. university and we go out of our way to cosy up to China, we have a lot of Chinese students here, and it's accepted that the journals we publish our research in don't acknowledge the existence of Taiwan. It's also extremely frowned upon to mention anything like Uighurs or Tiannamem Square.

I don't know. It makes me feel EXTREMELY icky that we take so much China money and joint ventures. It's possible to respect the Chinese peoples but recognise that the Government of their country does many truly evil things and maybe we shouldn't be looking the other way?

Am I going to be accused of taking a 'both sides' position if I say that I hate Tory scum but ALSO happen to think that China as a country is an extreme problem that the world has no idea how to deal with?

The point Rishi was making was about Confucius institutes, nothing to do with Chinese students. Is having a lot of Chinese students a problem? At least they are exposed to another culture and have opportunities to make their own minds up. I don't think anyone is saying we should be kicking out Russian students. The journals issue is entirely unrelated to Chinese students.