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Isn't next-gen the biggest generational leap in forever?

  • Yes

    Votes: 415 41.7%
  • No

    Votes: 581 58.3%

  • Total voters
    996

Maple

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,734
It's the biggest jump technologically in at least 20 years.

People don't realize the massive significance of moving from a HDD to a NVME SSD. Or the move from Jaguar CPUs to Zen 2 CPUs with SMT. It's a colossal leap in power that's going to result in so many advancements other than just graphics or resolution improvements.

So on paper, yes, it's one of the most significant and revolutionary jumps in a single console transition in the last 20 years - that's not really debatable.
 

Mass_Pincup

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,129
I only had base console throughout this generation and I'm not impressed at all by what I saw graphically or in regards to load times (which is very little all things considered).

We'll see when more next gen only game end up being revealed.
 

Jahranimo

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,021
Nah, 2D -> 3D in the 90s blew my little kid mind wide open. N64/PS1 games seemed so crazy compared to basic Super Mario Bros and Legend of Zelda lol.
 

Glio

Member
Oct 27, 2017
24,529
Spain
Diminishing returns: The thread.

You can do huge jumps in absolute numbers but they will feel minor.
 

Arn

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,745
It is on paper, sure.

In practice we have cross-gen titles and remakes at this stage. The most "Next-Gen" game launching this year also runs on a base Xbox One.

Excited to see more about software that'll make the specs sing in 2021. The excitement of new hardware will get me through the first six months.
 

not_smiff

Member
Oct 31, 2017
958
Doesn't pass the eye test like other gens. As an old dude(early 30s) nothing will top the first time I saw Mario 64 with Mario running and flipping in a 3d space. A 8 year old me was blown away eternally
 
Nov 23, 2017
4,999
Maybe spec-wise, but footage-wise, definitely not. I haven't been impressed at all, minus some parts of the Epic Tech Demo, and even then, it wasn't much of a wow factor. Unless we see some new stuff that wows us, I'm going to be led to believe that we're getting diminishing returns going forward.
 

chezzymann

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,042
No, because most of that power is going to things like 4k and ray tracing which is not as obvious as past generations because 1080p is already pretty good for most TV setups and last gen we were baking fake ray tracing lighting into the textures.
 

Giant Panda

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,689
Even if we stick solely to 3D, PS1/N64 to PS2/Gamecube/Xbox and then that gen to PS3/360 were both bigger. It looks to be bigger than PS3 to PS4 though, that transition only increased GPU power and RAM.
 

Deleted member 1238

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,070
Diminishing returns on the visual end will certainly make it hard for some people to appreciate, but this next gen will probably be the biggest jump we've seen since the PS2/Xbox to PS3/360.

The things these machines will make possible are far more important than some extra visual detail. There's plenty of reason to be excited!
 

gozu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,345
America
Since I started playing consoles, there has never been an IO speed increase of this magnitude.

Both minimum and peak speeds have jumped in a ridiculous fashion. 100x for minimum speeds which are super important.

The only shift as seismic was the move from cartridges to discs, and that went in the opposite direction :)
 

Poison Jam

Member
Nov 6, 2017
2,984
PS1 to PS2, N64 to Gamecube. Or SNES to N64. Now there's a paradigm shift.

This time we get more power, but will truly change how games are made? I don't think the current generation did much of that, and I don't expect the next one to do so either.
 

RivalGT

Member
Dec 13, 2017
6,401
No I don't think so... Not in terms of gpu or ram... It's definitely the biggest leap in storage speed though. The CPU is a pretty big leap too.
 

DarthBuzzard

Banned
Jul 17, 2018
5,122
Compared to PS3/360->PS4/Xbox One, it's pretty exciting to be honest. We can see some fantastic loading gains with SSDs, but more important to game feel, we're finally getting a focus on 3D audio, an area that has regressed for decades in gaming. DualSense offering haptics will also be pretty nice and is a better addition than the touchpad and share button on DualShock 4.

I can barely tell the difference. Nothing's gonna top 2d to 3d.
Well, VR will.
 

tusharngf

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,288
Lordran
yes with raytracing plus SSD this is a generational leap in terms of technology. Not to mention 15.3 billion transistors in XSX SOC in that small space. You are getting 12tf in a console now and GPU's already touching 40 teraflop mark.
 

Ushay

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,351
Yes it absolutely is, not only are the graphical gains huge we are also getting massively more powerful CPUs and SSDs that are literal generations ahead of what we have now.
 
Feb 8, 2018
2,570
They want us to believe so. Buzzwords will always be part of PR sadly. My guess is 2/3 years from now the best looking current gen games will begin to look less impressive.
 

Coxy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,187
For me, nothing will beat the jump from MegaDrive to PS1.

Incredible.

Nowadays games just look shinier.
 

Madrugador

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,327
I think the leap is huge, but nothing beats 2D to 3D.

Also, PSX to PS2 felt bigger too IMO.
 

Rad

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,068
On paper, yes. PS4 and Xbox One were actually fairly weak spec wise, even when they launched.
 

Krauser Kat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,705
i dont need better graphics telling, basic ass problematic stories. Maybe game pass can bring in more inventive story telling and one off gameplays, cuz triple aaa gaming has been a trash fire.
 
Feb 8, 2018
2,570
I'll be honest, I've had a base PS4 for like 5 years and I haven't seen any videos that make me think "Oh shit I NEED that PS5/XBXS."

Can someone tell me the benefits of the new systems other than slight graphic upgrade and the loading times?

The question is what "slight graphic upgrade" means for somebody. Is that opinion based on a fairly direct comparison, screenshots or the game running in motion? Did the person see footage of the game with a variety of effects coming together etc.? For example Dirt 5 in its current state at least, is what I'd call a slight upgrade. I noticed pop-ins and screen tearing was mentioned by some guys. The 120fps mode is a nice bonus for those with high end monitors but It doesn't impress me when the IQ and framerate modes have their compromises while the overall look (apart from the art style) is not particularly great for a launch title.
 
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chezzymann

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,042
They want us to believe so. Buzzwords will always be part of PR sadly. My guess is 2/3 years from now the best looking current gen games will begin to look less impressive.
Yeah, once games are fully built from the ground up using ray tracing and not having to compromise for non ray tracing options in like 3 years games now will look outdated
 

Aurongel

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
7,065
It doesn't help that a lot of things like 4K, 120FPS and HDR aren't really "marketable" in the sense that you can't watch a trailer of it and immediately get what the hype is about. Plus some of the most visually striking games (TLoU.II and Cyberpunk) are already going to be cross-generational.
 

jfkgoblue

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,650
People say this at the beginning of every generation.

I can't imagine thinking Demon Souls is just PS4 with subtle, expensive effects. And I doubt anybody will be saying that once we move on from cross gen games.
Remember back in 2005 with the "Xbox 1.5" memes? It's kinda ridiculous how people keep saying this every gen since
 

Grue

Member
Sep 7, 2018
4,930
People don't realize the massive significance of moving from a HDD to a NVME SSD. Or the move from Jaguar CPUs to Zen 2 CPUs with SMT. It's a colossal leap in power that's going to result in so many advancements other than just graphics or resolution improvements.

Hi there

Genuine question from a tech-moron here -

Can you lay out what some of these (aside from graphics / resolution) would be?

Like, as a player - what's the thing I will really notice most or go 'now that's next gen'?
 

IronicSonic

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,639
16 to 32/64bit jump gave birth to new genres based on the power of the new consoles (3D platformers, 3D fighting games). It's difficult to surpass that.
It looks good though
 

Jer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,198
Diminishing returns: The thread.

You can do huge jumps in absolute numbers but they will feel minor.

Yeah, on paper it looks like a huge difference, but in practice, diminishing returns are real, and it feels like it'll just be a refined version of the same experience.

This gen seems about the same as last gen in terms of experience improvement, but it's nothing like gens 3-7 where there was real revolutionary change.
 

MekaMachine

Banned
Sep 17, 2020
241
If you look beyond visuals, which are bound to improve but never show themselves until at least a year into the gen, it's a huge advancement, yes. I suspect it's a combination of ignorance and impatience that's led to the more tepid reactions from so called hardcore on sites like this, but eventually we'll hit the point in the gen where everyone collectively goes "Ok THIS is next gen", and this time around it's going to be way more pronounced and impactful than the PS4/XB1 gen. These boxes are taking big, big steps towards balancing the overall specs, and opening up bottlenecks that have been a thorn in the side of devs for at least 10 years. If you're looking for a gargantuan 2D to 3D revolutionary jump, that won't happen again, not all at once. But the iterative steps we're seeing now are the kinds of moments that, in unison, will make you look back 15 years from now to see just how far the industry went, and why this upcoming gen in particular was so pivotal.

If you can't look beyond the visuals, what you've seen so far is a modest jump at the highest end of game development but nothing truly exciting. Unfortunately for these people the standardization of physically based rendering in the PS4/XB1 generation alongside incredible stylized artistry has brought us to a point where a lot of games, aesthetically, look "good enough." Shading is believable, scenes are dense and varied, facial capture at the highest tier of studios is really good now, eyes in videogames convey emotion better than ever before, cel shading techniques can look astounding. This is obviously not the peak, just look at where CG movies are, but a lot of people are still waiting for those instant mega leaps in visuals we used to get that simply won't happen anymore. What happens now is a huge leap in scene density and complexity as devs take advantage of modern CPUs and a new SSD baseline, while continuing to work out the kinks of realtime raytracing. In time, maybe not even next gen but the gen after, pathtracing, then more mature and further iterated on, alongside cutting edge animation tech will give us vital ingredients to hit true realtime photo realism and animation seamlessness, and we'll look back at 2020 games wondering how we ever thought they were good enough. But this will all take time. Games are walking now whereas before the industry was leaping in attempts to catch up to CG rendering, but these newer ideas are the most difficult ones to implement.

Or you could just sit out of games entirely and come back when full body and sensory VR immersion has been achieved. Realistically that's the next 2D to 3D jump.
Ummm sorry sir... have you heard of diminishing returns? /s
 

thepenguin55

Member
Oct 28, 2017
11,816
I mean, even compared to the half step consoles these consoles feel like a notable step up. Last gens launch lineup titles all looked very PS360 to me, perhaps even lesser than any late gen PS360 titles. Between both platforms it seems we'll be getting fewer next gen exclusive titles before the year finishes out (Astrobot & Demon's Souls @ PS5 launch and The Medium a month after Series S/X launch).

Having said that, the few titles that are next gen exclusive all seem to be taking advantage of the hardware in ways that don't feel like just a gimmick unlike the PS4's launch lineup making use of the gimmick-y DS4 features, or X1's launch lineup leveraging Kinect to do bad motion controls in Dead Rising 3 or dumb voice commands in Ryse, or guessing how many dice are in a cup in 1-2 Switch (though Astrobot appears to go the more gimmick-y but at least in a way that looks fun). Demon's Souls looks to really leverage the power of PS5 hardware to make a game that looks really impressive with its ray tracing and is incredibly snappy with load times (or lack of them) thanks to the SSD and The Medium while also a nice looking ray traced game literally has a core mechanic built around the speed of the SSD in the new Xbox.

And that's the thing. I don't think most people will be able to wrap their heads around what a difference the SSDs in these new consoles will make until they're sitting down with these games. Even cross gen titles are going to benefit greatly from the SSDs in these consoles. Perhaps we do reach a point in the generation where very long times make a resurgence but that's probably when the half step consoles come in to solve that problem and I think devs will wring everything out of these SSDs. Also, factor in that a lot of PS4/X1 titles that were really punching above their weight before will now run on these new consoles with relative ease and even in certain cases some games will receive enhancements beyond just framerate and resolution bumps (something companies often struggled with when bringing PS360 titles to PS4/X1). So even factoring in the mid gen refresh consoles I absolutely believe that the new Xbox & PS5 are a bigger leap forward than the PS4/X1 was over the PS3 & 360.
 

MekaMachine

Banned
Sep 17, 2020
241
Yeah, on paper it looks like a huge difference, but in practice, diminishing returns are real, and it feels like it'll just be a refined version of the same experience.

This gen seems about the same as last gen in terms of experience improvement, but it's nothing like gens 3-7 where there was real revolutionary change.
Every single dev rumor and dev on record has said the exact opposite though?

If you look beyond visuals, which are bound to improve but never show themselves until at least a year into the gen, it's a huge advancement, yes. I suspect it's a combination of ignorance and impatience that's led to the more tepid reactions from so called hardcore on sites like this, but eventually we'll hit the point in the gen where everyone collectively goes "Ok THIS is next gen", and this time around it's going to be way more pronounced and impactful than the PS4/XB1 gen. These boxes are taking big, big steps towards balancing the overall specs, and opening up bottlenecks that have been a thorn in the side of devs for at least 10 years. If you're looking for a gargantuan 2D to 3D revolutionary jump, that won't happen again, not all at once. But the iterative steps we're seeing now are the kinds of moments that, in unison, will make you look back 15 years from now to see just how far the industry went, and why this upcoming gen in particular was so pivotal.

If you can't look beyond the visuals, what you've seen so far is a modest jump at the highest end of game development but nothing truly exciting. Unfortunately for these people the standardization of physically based rendering in the PS4/XB1 generation alongside incredible stylized artistry has brought us to a point where a lot of games, aesthetically, look "good enough." Shading is believable, scenes are dense and varied, facial capture at the highest tier of studios is really good now, eyes in videogames convey emotion better than ever before, cel shading techniques can look astounding. This is obviously not the peak, just look at where CG movies are, but a lot of people are still waiting for those instant mega leaps in visuals we used to get that simply won't happen anymore. What happens now is a huge leap in scene density and complexity as devs take advantage of modern CPUs and a new SSD baseline, while continuing to work out the kinks of realtime raytracing. In time, maybe not even next gen but the gen after, pathtracing, then more mature and further iterated on, alongside cutting edge animation tech will give us vital ingredients to hit true realtime photo realism and animation seamlessness, and we'll look back at 2020 games wondering how we ever thought they were good enough. But this will all take time. Games are walking now whereas before the industry was leaping in attempts to catch up to CG rendering, but these newer ideas are the most difficult ones to implement.

Or you could just sit out of games entirely and come back when full body and sensory VR immersion has been achieved. Realistically that's the next 2D to 3D jump.
I think Net says it best but I haven't seen anybody actually address this excellent analysis, instead of just repeating the mantra of diminishing returns and saying they haven't seen anything impressive when we've barely seen any next gen footage at all.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
PS4 to Xbox Series S is probably the smallest jump ever. The only components that are really "next gen" are the storage solution and the CPU which is a mid range laptop CPU instead of a low end laptop CPU.

I still think that the focus on QOL and faster loading is the right path to take. It's a refined version of last gen with better framerates, minimal loading and with the option to get something akin to a more traditional next gen jump in select first party games.

The Jaguar was not a low end laptop CPU, it was comparable to a 2008 low end CPU. Richard Leadbetter(DigitalFoundry) tried on PC to run desktop Windows on it, the CPU had trouble to do it.

The SSD and CPU are huge improvement. On storage side this is the biggest change since PS1, the SSD is a game changer. This will help a lot in assets quality. We will be able to have LOD0 assets for tons of gameplay because they will be inside memory and help a lot dev.

This is not the biggest leap ever 2d to 3d is unbeatable but the biggest one since PS1.



Read this twitter thread you will understand why SSD is a game changer not only for loading but for streaming and memory management. If PS4/XB1 had a SATA SSD or a low speed NVME SSD, games would have look much better.

Andrew Maximov is the ex technical artist director of Naughty Dog.

EDIT: I expect cutscene to only look a bit better than PS4/XB1(mostly hair, a bit better skin shading) but gameplay to looks massively better than PS4/XB1.

For example, we will be able to have tons of facial animation directly in gameplay. The next ND games will use it a lot because they have the system to do it but not the technology to push it on PS4/PS4 PRo.
 
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Glio

Member
Oct 27, 2017
24,529
Spain
I don't want to miss the devs because obviously they know much more about videogames than I do, but many times it happens that people who are very involved in the industry are able to see some changes as revolutionary, which is then a minor difference for the user , since their perspective is very different.

This happens in all fields.
 
Jul 17, 2018
1,631
Yeah, the differences were so big!
At least Spider-Man characters had some things on their faces, a game like MGS was like this on PS1 and PS2:

bdjq_sdad.jpg

Jesus!!! I'm finally remembering just how more powerfult the 64 was compared to the PS1 lol because I don't remember the 64 having this terrible graphics.
 

MekaMachine

Banned
Sep 17, 2020
241
I don't want to miss the devs because obviously they know much more about videogames than I do, but many times it happens that people who are very involved in the industry are able to see some changes as revolutionary, which is then a minor difference for the user , since their perspective is very different.

This happens in all fields.
I don't think we can generalize so heavily like that when devs specifically go into heavy detail as to why this will make a huge difference to end consumers.
twitter.com

Andrew Maximov on Twitter

“Just saw the new @PlayStation #PS5 presentation. Great job @cerny! Since I routinely have to explain to people why I'm excited for an SSD for rendering I thought I'd write a little thread to explain. Case in point: Uncharted 1 to Last of Us transition:”

This isn't even considering that anything that revolutionarily makes devs jobs easier will increase budget efficiency and naturally lead to better looking games.
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,385
NES -> SNES
CPU: 8-bit 1.79 Mhz -> 16-bit up to 3.58Mhz
RAM 2KB -> 128KB
VRAM 2KB -> 64KB
256 x 240 pixels -> 512 x 448 max
Simultaneous Colors 24 -> 256
Max sprite size 8 x 16 -> 64 x 64
Max sprite 64 (8 per line) -> 128 (32 per line)
Sound: PSG Sound -> 8-bit Sony SPC700
 

Bomi-Chan

Member
Nov 8, 2017
665
i think going from nes in 85 and going to snes in 90 was a leap
or from snes to psx in 94, seeing cgi, videos, cd-music-quality and fucking 3d for your home.
also: back then there was always a must-buy-title for your launch-console, we didnt have must-have games for at least the last sony/ms consoles.

these days, i dont see much of a difference:
-wow the lighting/hair looks better
-fps
-huge worlds
-loading times
-no more must-buy-exclusive titles...
 

Jer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,198
Every single dev rumor and dev on record has said the exact opposite though?

Devs say the user experience improvement will be bigger than previous generations? Bigger than 2D to 3D? Bigger than SD to HD? That would certainly be something, given that there's absolutely no evidence that's true from the demos so far.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
Devs say the user experience improvement will be bigger than previous generations? Bigger than 2D to 3D? Bigger than SD to HD? That would certainly be something, given that there's absolutely no evidence that's true from the demos so far.

Wait a little for example one dev work on a games and think this type of assets are reachable on next-generation consoles. This is running on a GTX 1080 I think and Rens is a game dev and he want to do an open world with this assets. He does not use Megascan but his own photos for photogrammetry and Unreal Engine 4.

Bigger than 2d to 3d is impossible but bigger than SD to HD not out of reach.

This is made by a game dev thinking we can do as good or better in game.




We have this for Unreal Engine 5



EDIT: 1080 Ti

At the beginning he was PC only but seeing next-generation consoles specs he thinks he can go multiplatform





And he made some other progress

Technical Art Director & Owner at Unannounced. Working on a single player exploration game, will be released somewhere during 2020. Worked for/with DICE, Epic Games, Sony, #Intel - Battlefield 3, 4, Hardline, Paragon

I think he worked for Sony at Naughty Dog
 
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Oct 25, 2017
21,466
Sweden
Imagine we never had the PS4 Pro or Xbox One X. How absolutely gobsmacked would we be by the stuff we've seen of next-gen so far? The difference is gargantuan.

Imagine this is your old gaming PC:
  • CPU: AMD FX 8120
  • GPU: AMD Radeon HD 7850 2GB
  • HDD: 500 GB 5400RPM
  • RAM: 4 GB
...and after 7 years you finally decide to build this:
  • CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 3700X
  • GPU: NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2070 8GB
  • SSD: 1 TB NVMe
  • RAM: 8 GB
The difference in performance would be NUTS!
heck yes, some numbers

seriously though, these numbers tell me nothing lol. but i understand not everyone is as much of an idiot as i
 
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No, nothing will ever top earlier advances in console graphics, from a visual standpoint.

As has been mentioned, other technologies apart from just visuals seem like where we'll get the most upgrades this time around.

That also said, coming from a guy who grew up playing cartridge only consoles for a significant period of time, it's about time we got back to instant loading. To me, this is less of a new thing, and more of a return to how things should've been.

As it matures, it will top the leap felt from 2D->3D for most people because it's ultimately a bigger change from a measurable standpoint - meaning how it changes the end user experience as well as the kinds of changes it brings to game design.

That's entirely different display technologies, though. Not the console itself.

VR can be (and will be) used for much more than games - because it's an advance in displays, not solely an advance in video game hardware - as seems to be implied here.

Also, screw having to move around when I'm playing games.
It's going to be great for some games and occasions, absolutely. Driving games and first-person games especially.

But, I already feel lazy enough to not move for Wii pointer control games.

The last thing I personally want to do over and over when I get home from a 1 hour commute home in traffic is strap on goggles, completely lose visual contact with my family and move my head around like I'm tripping out.