"You wish." - YGDoes this mean Blackpink comeback announcement date is right around the corner?!
DOES IT?
The girl group slant was expected, but at least two boy group songs touched the Top 20.
The video is a nice concept; I'm interested to see what the actual choreo for this will look like if it has any. I like dark BTS so if this is the vibe the rest of the album will have I'm super excited.
The Spotify sounds different than this. It's a very interesting video, and I like the sounds from both songs released so far. Should be good.
Black Swan is so good. The vocal processing is a questionable choice but the instrumental underlying it all is glorious.
I mean we could do a b-side vote too. I just prefer to keep it to title/mv tracks since even if we include b-sides, the list will always skew towards title tracks.
Separating the lists would be best, but I'd probably keep it to a Top 10 b-sides for the year since I don't expect as many mentions/votes. We could try a test run right now for b-sides.
Separating the lists would be best, but I'd probably keep it to a Top 10 b-sides for the year since I don't expect as many mentions/votes. We could try a test run right now for b-sides.
I don't think I know enough b-sides for a top ten. I'm just a basic bitch who mostly listens to singles.
so weird in here! as a kpop fangirl, it feels like i enter bizarro world!
so weird in here! as a kpop fangirl, it feels like i enter bizarro world!
Apologies if it is a little obnoxious of me but I just want to make sure it's alright to do a B-side ranking now...
Apologies if it is a little obnoxious of me but I just want to make sure it's alright to do a B-side ranking now...
Yea I have pretty bad anxiety so anytime I do these rankings I feel like I'm taking over the thread.
Glad to see you around lovely spaudaire 💜
Also, I am a kpop fangirl as well (a rarity over here) but only ever really stan girl groups, although I listen to boy groups too. But yeah, I still mostly don't care about them, not gonna lie.
hiya ! delphi <3 !!!
in general, most of kpop seems very candypop and i can only ever get to a few groups' tracks, but ngl im more of the boy band fans cuz I guess I got into them from when i was teenager girl days XD;;;;;
For those that don't know what I'm talking about (my most streamed LOONA song in 2019):
Oh me, too, got into Kpop in 2008 or something, I was a late teenager then, but still, always have way more into girl groups than anything else even back then. To be fair, it's always been this way ever since I'm a child, boy groups have never done anything for me regardless of what music I was into :'D
aaaah, the girl bands sometimes seem so ... idk, like male gazey for adult men audience vibes > __ <
the way they dance and the way they sound, just doesnt appealed to me > __ < (most of the times)
but of course not a blanket condition! thankfully :D i did like crayon pop and blackpink but the boy bands and their fandoms are where a lot of sisterhood* experience has been formed for me :D
*some sisters were a bit much tho XD;;;;;;;;;;;;;; but eh, there's always the intense outliers in any groups, i suppose?
In terms of gaze, they're both aimed at different audiences, so I wouldn't say girl groups are aimed at adult men specifically. As an example, VeriVery recently did "Lay Back", which was a far more sexualized concept than I would've expected for that group.
There's also certain limitations on the types of choreography girl groups are able to perform. They can certainly do the dances and concepts justice:
They generally just aren't allowed to. So, I try not to hold the concepts that girl groups are sort of trapped in act as a negative mark against them. I understand the appeal issue, but urge you to think about the reasoning behind why they have to perform in the manner they do.
That's generally why I listen to both boy and girl groups equally. Both strain against the norms of the industry in different ways.
aaaah, the girl bands sometimes seem so ... idk, like male gazey for adult men audience vibes > __ <
the way they dance and the way they sound, just doesnt appealed to me > __ < (most of the times)
but of course not a blanket condition! thankfully :D i did like crayon pop and blackpink but the boy bands and their fandoms are where a lot of sisterhood* experience has been formed for me :D
*some sisters were a bit much tho XD;;;;;;;;;;;;;; but eh, there's always the intense outliers in any groups, i suppose?
To be fair, the same can be said about boy bands who are clearly catered for female audience down to a T, and have all the markings of masculine heterosexual stereotypes expected to be liked by women. Which is why I rarely vibed with it, although I can on occasion, but it felt forced to me. I feel like girls band cater to men and women equally nowadays, any girl group needs a strong fandom to survive, and sadly men don't tend to be very loyal in their stanning, while women do, so when a girl group manages to have a strong following of female fans, this is usually very important for them and their survival in this highly-competitive industry. In that sense, the Kpop industry knows very well how important it is to cater to female fans as well, so I do think they do so overall.
I do believe that the overtly innocent groups cater too much to men at times indeed, which is why it took me years to finally get into Gfriend's whole shtick (and it only happened when they finally matured from middle/high-school themed MVs & boring Japanese anime openings formulas). But I'll also easily fall for cuteness, like a lot of women do, and will endearingly care for a talented group/idol that displays it in ways and amounts that I do enjoy (like Oh My Girl). I actually rejected that whole idea of cute innocent femininity for a long time during my life, because as women, it's what is imposed on us and the whole society expects us to be that, and it's oppressing us and limiting us so damn much to the point we end up rejecting it entirely and go the opposite way (I know I did).
However, upon discovering feminism and studying it, I came to the conclusion that I need to support women expressing all kinds of vibes, from innocent to cute to sassy to flirty to sexy to artsy to badass to aggressive, as long as it's their wish to do so. There are Kpop idols out there that truly behave in innocent and cute ways because that's just who they are. Now comes the question of how much of their personas is pushed by the company and the concept they wanna adapt, and how much of it is them expressing themselves, we'll truly never know. But I do think Kpop has evolved in the past few years, to the point where many girl groups with many different vibes and messages can coexist and thrive peacefully, and I'll be interested in getting to know them and support them all regardless of the vibe they are. And when you see all these different talented women, all having different vibes, belonging to different groups, interacting with one another, befriending one another, supporting and loving one another, it's a truly heartwarming feeling of sisterhood that emerges victorious to me.
Also, many girl groups are very LGBT-friendly in their fandom, mostly thanks to the way idols interact with one another, the Kpop industry knows LBGT people make a good part of the Kpop fandom, (as shown by the fact the Korean pride parade is always playing Kpop bops, among other facts), and companies know about that, and sometimes play along in subtle ways (because Korea itself is still very homophobic anyway so can't be too obvious about it). Many girl groups out there are definitely catering to girls more than they are catering to boys (I mean, Mamamoo fandom is a bastion of lesbians and bisexual girls, for example). Anyway, it's a long conversation to have, and I probably goofed some parts of my explanation, feel free to correct me.
But yeah, support women, listen to their music, buy their albums and go to their concerts, this has been my PSA, thanks.
i like that video you linked! but is it the few in the many?
as for the WHY they have to perform in the manner they do, ... please tell me more! i have heard about problems in this industry previously but am always interested to hear more about it and educate myself further~
There's more of them, but they tend to be special stages of the same type, girl group doing the choreography of a famous male group. You'll find them if you pick a girl group and search for their name, plus a popular boy group song. Usually on year-end shows.
Another example is Twice members dancing with Taemin:
You can tell they have a blast when they do them. There's a bunch of different reasons they can't. Korean norms of masculine and feminine . Having to wear heels, another norm, also prevents some of the more complex moves.
Doesn't feel like that at all for me, and I have a lot of fun thinking of my ranking :)
Having to wear heels, another norm, also prevents some of the more complex moves.
I don't agree with that statement to be honest. I feel like it's always been a strong stereotype to say that female idols aren't as talented in dancing, precisely because they can pull off amazing and incredibly complex choreography that require a ton of skill and talent, while also wearing high heels. Also, girl group choreography and boy group choreography often tend to require different abilities, and mastering those abilities can be equally difficult for either gender. While male idols are allowed to be more energetic and sharp in movement, this is what they have to master and get good at, female idols have to be extremely precise, as well as move themselves with grace and delicacy that often needs mastering as well. It's roughly like comparing ballet and break dance and deciding that break dance is more difficult and more complex than ballet because it's more energetic and acrobatic, and that... just doesn't sit well with me.
If anything, I've seen plenty of extremely talented female dancers, capable of being as energetic and sharp as male idols are while doing covers of their songs. But I very very rarely see male dancers able to pull off a dance cover of a girl group song with all the grace and all the smoothness and precision required for it, and they often end up making it look like a complete grotesque pastiche of it. Malus points if they wear skirts, wigs & feminine make-up in order to do so, ugh, I fucking hate it when they do that, so goddamn insulting. And they can't dance with heels for the most part anyway, cause that's a goddamn skill too.
I don't agree with that statement to be honest. I feel like it's always been a strong stereotype to say that female idols aren't as talented in dancing, precisely because they can pull off amazing and incredibly complex choreography that require a ton of skill and talent, while also wearing high heels. Also, girl group choreography and boy group choreography often tend to require different abilities, and mastering those abilities can be equally difficult for either gender. While male idols are allowed to be more energetic and sharp in movement, this is what they have to master and get good at, female idols have to be extremely precise, as well as move themselves with grace and delicacy that often needs mastering as well. It's roughly like comparing ballet and break dance and deciding that break dance is more difficult and more complex than ballet because it's more energetic and acrobatic, and that... just doesn't sit well with me.
If anything, I've seen plenty of extremely talented female dancers, capable of being as energetic and sharp as male idols are while doing covers of their songs. But I very very rarely see male dancers able to pull off a dance cover of a girl group song with all the grace and all the smoothness and precision required for it, and they often end up making it look like a complete grotesque pastiche of it. Malus points if they wear skirts, wigs & feminine make-up in order to do so, ugh, I fucking hate it when they do that, so goddamn insulting. And they can't dance with heels for the most part anyway, cause that's a goddamn skill too.
How you got to "female idols aren't as talented in dancing" is a bit of a perplexing bit for me.
has delphi saw bts' coming of age cover? i think they covered the original girl-centric choreography dancey with respect and appreciation, and though there was no full formal recording of the two BTS boys unveiling it at the event (only potato video from fans), i think they didn't make fun of it and was seriously practicing the moves for days to show homage to the original artist who is a woman :>
And they didn't do the dance in skirts/wigs/feminine get-up either, which, I agree, also rags on my nerves when I see it happening > ___ <
this is the video i think but im at work so i could only guess from the title/google search thumbnail as actual yt links are blocked at my office (i have to yt from phone):
Let's be real, female idols could ditch the heels and they'll still be massively hindered by restrictive diets that don't allow for the energy consumption required for repeatedly performing the very high energy routines. It's not merely one thing at play here.
Girls are just as good as boys at everything, dancing included.
I appreciate that they are really trying, but I find this cover rather disappointing. I guess it's also because they're rehearsing, but yeah, but it's lacking finesse and feelings to me. Makes me curious to know what the final performance looked like though, cause I'm sure they would have poured more energy and feelings into that one than they did during rehearsals. But they took it seriously, at least.
If I had to take bets, I would think Lee Daehwi would have enough genuine love for girl group choreos, enough talent, and not enough care about what other people would think of him, for him to pull them off with all the rigor, respect and love they truly deserve. I've seen some members of Seventeen and Shinee pull pretty good girl group dance covers too. But a huge chunk of male idols look like gross caricatures most of the time while doing them, they don't take them seriously at all.
Just looking at this video of male idols dancing to girl group choreos, how many of them, when they aren't dancing in ridiculous wigs and skirts, are being taken seriously by the people around them? More often than not, a male idol doing a dance cover of a girl group choreo is done for cheap laughs and ridicule, not to truly honor and artistically express that choreo the way it should be. This is why, for the most part, it is irritating to look at videos like these:
You have Daehwi, Key and some other idols showing genuine love and care while dancing, but for the rest, it's pretty clear people aren't serious about it and it is just done for laughs and entertainment rather than an emotional and artistic cover of those choreos. And that's why girl group choreos are also difficult, they require of you to play a role, to show certain "softer feminine" qualities, and most male idols aren't willing, or simply do not know how to embody them.
In contrast, when you see girl groups doing covers of boy groups and going hard at it, looking masculine and assertive, the reception to them is more akin to respect, surprise and full of people going "wow this is so cool, daebak!". The contrast in reactions is forever going to make me furious, because right there is what subtle sexism looks like.
I thought I made it quite clear that it was not meant that way.Because that's literally an argument I've overwhelmingly seen being thrown at the faces of girl groups for as long as I got into Kpop, in order to discredit girl groups talent overall and diminish them in front of boy groups often elevated and praised for "being more talented". If you didn't mean it that way fine.
I'll give you that to a point, as dancing in heels does require more poise and positioning to pull off, making it closer to ballet.You're still implying that girl group dance choreos that imply high heels can't be as "complex" though, which leads me to believe you have a very narrow definition of complexity, because as I see it, knowing what kind of skills girl groups have to master in order to perform their choreos with all the smoothness, feelings and attitude required, and that those skills are very hard to master, I definitely believe GG choreos are as complex as BG choreos. It's just that their areas of complexity aren't the same. Again, ballet and break dance are both extremely complex dance genres, yet if you ask anyone not versed in dancing which genre they think is more complex to execute, pretty much everybody would say break dance because it looks flashier, but that'd definitely not be true.
Yes, the switch to flats instead of heels is relatively recent (in the last five years, probably since Twice and Gfriend), but the types of choreography given to girl groups is slower to change.Also, interesting that people keep bringing the fact that GG choreos can't be as complex as BG choreos because of heels, while a good chunk of them do not wear them anyway? Groups using heels are usually the ones more on the sexy side, which disqualifies a ton of GG who just simply don't use them, or use them rather sporadically in comparison. You're bringing up the example of DreamCatcher, who is a group quite talented and capable of delivering amazing complex choreos, but truly, a lot of GG also wear flat shoes and pull off great stuff. You can even have Cheng Xiao tumbling and Somi doing a high kicks, which both are athletic moves, and pull it off like it's nothing. Heck, Cheng Xiao even tumbled while wearing wedges, if that isn't a fucking complex move, then fine, i don't know what is.
If I had to take bets, I would think Lee Daehwi would have enough genuine love for girl group choreos, enough talent, and not enough care about what other people would think of him, for him to pull them off with all the rigor, respect and love they truly deserve. I've seen some members of Seventeen and Shinee pull pretty good girl group dance covers too. But a huge chunk of male idols look like gross caricatures most of the time while doing them, they don't take them seriously at all.
Just looking at this video of male idols dancing to girl group choreos, how many of them, when they aren't dancing in ridiculous wigs and skirts, are being taken seriously by the people around them? More often than not, a male idol doing a dance cover of a girl group choreo is done for cheap laughs and ridicule, not to truly honor and artistically express that choreo the way it should be. This is why, for the most part, it is irritating to look at videos like these:
You have Daehwi, Key and some other idols showing genuine love and care while dancing, but for the rest, it's pretty clear people aren't serious about it and it is just done for laughs and entertainment rather than an emotional and artistic cover of those choreos. And that's why girl group choreos are also difficult, they require of you to play a role, to show certain "softer feminine" qualities, and most male idols aren't willing, or simply do not know how to embody them.
Girls are just as good as boys at everything, dancing included.