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Oozer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,835
The first draft of Duel of the Fates was a damn good starting point. It tied directly into the themes of the previous movie and worked hard and mostly well to serve the important characters. It certainly had some issues as well. Rey and Kylo's duel at the end is too disconnected from the other battles going on, Poe has little to do, and Rey combining the light and the dark is, let's say, an awkward fit with the current conception of the Force. The first two of those things, at least, could have been worked out in subsequent drafts. Except Carrie Fisher died. Her character's role was not huge in the first draft, but it was pivotal. It's hard to write around Carrie's death without making the story weaker. It might even be impossible. It's likely why Lucasfilm eventually abandoned Duel of the Fates altogether and brought in first Jack Thorne and then Abrams and Terrio. Her death basically required a full reset.

And I'm getting annoyed all over again by the whole "they should have had a plan" narrative. Firstly, while I totally understand the impulse, that's not a good way to write a story. It locks you into decisions that might not make sense anymore after you've come up with better ideas. Secondly, just having a plan does not guarantee any type of quality. The showrunners of Game of Thrones knew at least part of the ending well in advance, but that didn't help make the final season any better received. Lastly, it's especially frustrating in this instance because, as far as I can tell, Lucasfilm did have a plan and that plan caused issues for the final film. From leaked information about earlier drafts and interviews with people involved, it seems that Lucasfilm wanted at least two things* from filmmakers in Episode IX:
  • It had to redeem Kylo (this happens in literally every version of the story we're aware of)
  • It had to feel like a conclusion not just to the sequel trilogy but to the entire Skywalker saga.
But each of those things, I'd argue, weakened any possible Episode IX. The events of The Last Jedi, combined with Carrie Fisher's death, basically shut the door on a satisfying redemption for Kylo Ren. Kylo ends The Last Jedi in a bloodthirsty rage, determined to kill every survivor in the Resistance, including his mother, after hesitating to kill her earlier in the film. And as those survivors are escaping, Rey, who was burned by Kylo taking complete control of the First Order, quite literally shuts the door on him. That made redeeming Kylo a very difficult task for whoever was coming next. A task that was near impossible without Leia. In fact, it appears the writers thought it was impossible without her, too, because she factored into the redemption in both Jack Thorne's version (through old family photographs) and the final film even though Fisher had passed before either of those were written. But without Leia actually there to talk to Kylo, a turn to the light was always going to be difficult to pull off.

The second point is basically what led us to Palpatine (though the first probably played into that decision as well). While he was still in charge of Episode IX, Colin Trevorrow made it clear that he was approaching it as the culmination of all 9 films. J.J. Abrams said something similar as did the producers Kathleen Kennedy and Michelle Rejwan. It's a pretty abstract idea, and not inherently a bad one, but the way it was handled (bringing back ol' Sheev) was not good for the film. It appears that Trevorrow and Connolly's way of fulfilling this point was by having Rey embrace the dark side and the light side. That kind of clashes with how the Force has been thought of, but I get the idea. The grand conclusion of the whole saga would essentially end with the dark side being eliminated as a threat for all time. But Lucasfilm has many people with a deep understanding of Star Wars which may have led to some hesitation about this particular ending. And Carrie Fisher died, weakening the script elsewhere as well. So Trevorrow and Connolly are dropped, Thorne is brought in and does... something (oh how I'd love for his script to leak since we know so little about it), it's not deemed good enough either so he's dropped, and in come Abrams and Terrio. They're given those two bullet points and, pretty naturally, come up with Palpatine as the solution to both. The Emperor makes the whole saga feel tied together since he appeared, or was at least mentioned, in each of the first 6 films and was an antagonist in all of them, and also gives Kylo a big bad to turn against to demonstrate his redemption. There are numerous problems with this (how did Palpatine survive, how would Kylo actually be redeemed, why would Rey care about any of this, etc.), but it fulfills both points. Then trying to plug those leaky bits leads to more issues and so on and so forth until you get the final film.

* It's possible that Lucasfilm also wanted Leia to appear in the movie in some capacity. The character was in the second draft of Duel of the Fates, which was written after Carrie Fisher's death, and of course, appeared in the final film. It's unknown if she was in Jack Thorne's version beyond likely appearing in some family photos in the Solo home. There's also one Leia-related item that pops up several times: her lightsaber. It appears in the second Connolly/Trevorrow draft, Thorne's draft, and the final film. That could have been something from Lucasfilm or it could have been something that Connolly and Trevorrow came up with and subsequent writers liked and thus kept around.

Disney blindly flailed out to course-correct because TLJ was controversial with general audiences.

According to The Art of The Rise of Skywalker, many of the controversial decisions in The Rise of Skywalker were made before The Last Jedi hit theaters. Palpatine was already back, Rey was likely already related to him, Poe was given a checkered past, Finn got a new character to pal around with, and Rose had little to do. All of that happened before the public saw The Last Jedi.

Is there a quick summary or anything of his leaked script?

I wrote a summary of the first draft and illustrated it with leaked concept art, though I don't know if I'd call it "quick" lol.
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,131
Chile
Spoiler: Duel of the Fates would've been just as bad as The Rise of Skywalker

Even if the movie ended up being as bad, it would at least had the advantage of doing new stuff for the Star Wars Universe, instead of that lame attempt at nostalgia and at pleasing the anti TLJ crowd and ass hats.
 

Xwing

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 11, 2017
9,885
Execution is everything and I think the film was on the right track to make those ideas work in the context of the existing story arcs. Palpatine as manifestation of holding too tightly onto the past, giving Rey an opportunity to not accept her past but violently reject it for an alternative, building off Kylo Ren's failure to self-actualise at the end of VIII.

It's all there, they just needed time to figure out how best to present it.

I actually super appreciate your contributions to this thread because you presented some really interesting theme analysis of RoS I have not seen before. Unfortunately, you have to kind of wipe away the incredibly lazy and superficial stuff RoS ended up doing in order to find these.

Things RoS did that actively undermine the themes you've outlined:

- "Somehow Palpatine has returned": this single line is probably the laziest thing I've ever seen in a popular franchise film. If JJ or Kennedy had actually properly done even the most basic of basic outlines to start, they could have at least put allusions or seeds for Palpatine/Exogol/larger Sith plot in the first two movies. Nothing grand or intrusive but like, something. Even a short 5 minute introduction scene in RoS itself explaining why it took Palps 30 years to do anything would have been been lightyears better than Poe's line. There's a really funny animation by WorthiKids that shows Palps repairing his body super slowly via force magic. Even that would have been something, lmao.

- The new characters (other than Rey and Kylo) being relegated to the background. Finn being shoved to tertiary character status after Force Awakens setting him up as at least a deuteragonist is completely fucked.

- The knife/bounty hunter/Rey's parents subplot. This was just not well thought out spatially or even logically. The whole sequence completely falls apart if you stop to think about it for even a milisecond.

I could go on, but it's really just death by a thousand cuts of laziness. You've already acknowledge the execution of RoS was bad though so I'm probably preaching to the choir.

Final thought: Even when I first saw RoS, I really like the final confrontation between Palps, Rey, Kylo, and the Knights of Ren on an action/symbolic level. Just wish the movie had earned it/built to it the same way TLJ built to the royal guard fight.
 

plagiarize

It's not a loop. It's a spiral.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,560
Cape Cod, MA
All this talk of whether or not planning is a good idea for a trilogy or not is very valid. I hate the idea that there is only one 'proper' way to do things. One of the *very* best trilogies was made up as they went along and you'd never know (Linklater's Before trilogy). However those often have a strong creative voice tying them together tonally and thematically. They feel like they're from the same *voice* as it were.

I think Kennedy gets *way* too much fucking hate for stuff that is nothing to do with her, and she isn't writing these things, so she can't be expected to serve that role.

What always boggles my mind is that apparently Rey was conceived by JJ either without a backstory or without him sharing her backstory with the people working on the sequels. That's just stupid. They make a big point in Episode 7 that she doesn't know who her parents were... if it was the plan that she was Palpatine's kid... well we know for a fact no one told Rian that. If Abrams didn't have a firm idea of who her parents were at the time...

Like, how can you write a character like that, even in a standalone film... and just... not know the details of the backstory you created?

A firm rigid plan isn't necessary to make a great trilogy.

But what 7, 8 and 9 did... didn't make a great trilogy. At all. Having no one there to keep things consistent ended up providing the absolute train wreck of an episode 9 we got. If it's episode 8's fault for not setting up an episode 9 well enough... that's still to the fault of the people making the trilogy.

*MOST* films that are popular enough to turn into a trilogy, have plans for part three by the time they're making part two, even if there were no real plans beyond the first movie when it was made.

Jurassic World had a direction as a trilogy. Successful or not, the idea was to reach a world with indigenous dinosaurs for the third movie. There was at least a broad concept. Apparently with this... there was nothing.

It isn't a binary choice between fully crafted trilogy narrative vs no plans at all. And while, again, *when you have a consistent creative voice involved through the whole trilogy* we've seen 'no plan' work very very well... this trilogy didn't have that.
 

Xwing

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 11, 2017
9,885
It isn't a binary choice between fully crafted trilogy narrative vs no plans at all. And while, again, *when you have a consistent creative voice involved through the whole trilogy* we've seen 'no plan' work very very well... this trilogy didn't have that.

This is an absolutely crucial point. One person flying by the seat of their pants is very different than a committee of people making it up as they go along.

I firmly believe Palps could have worked if they had actually had a plan to bring him back in some way from the start. No rigid "this is why", but literally anything in the first two movies to lead up to him would have helped.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,439
I actually super appreciate your contributions to this thread because you presented some really interesting theme analysis of RoS I have not seen before. Unfortunately, you have to kind of wipe away the incredibly lazy and superficial stuff RoS ended up doing in order to find these.

Things RoS did that actively undermine the themes you've outlined:

- "Somehow Palpatine has returned": this single line is probably the laziest thing I've ever seen in a popular franchise film. If JJ or Kennedy had actually properly done even the most basic of basic outlines to start, they could have at least put allusions or seeds for Palpatine/Exogol/larger Sith plot in the first two movies. Nothing grand or intrusive but like, something. Even a short 5 minute introduction scene in RoS itself explaining why it took Palps 30 years to do anything would have been been lightyears better than Poe's line. There's a really funny animation by WorthiKids that shows Palps repairing his body super slowly via force magic. Even that would have been something, lmao.

- The new characters (other than Rey and Kylo) being relegated to the background. Finn being shoved to tertiary character status after Force Awakens setting him up as at least a deuteragonist is completely fucked.

- The knife/bounty hunter/Rey's parents subplot. This was just not well thought out spatially or even logically. The whole sequence completely falls apart if you stop to think about it for even a milisecond.

I could go on, but it's really just death by a thousand cuts of laziness. You've already acknowledge the execution of RoS was bad though so I'm probably preaching to the choir.

Final thought: Even when I first saw RoS, I really like the final confrontation between Palps, Rey, Kylo, and the Knights of Ren on an action/symbolic level. Just wish the movie had earned it/built to it the same way TLJ built to the royal guard fight.
I don't agree the issues with the story were logistics of how Palpatine came back or that a Sith dagger can be used as a way finder, they can elaborate on the exposition, but I think the main issues were characters ones and that Palpatine coming back, and as Rey's grandfather, the general story, that's not an organic continuation of what TLJ was going for.
 

Xwing

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 11, 2017
9,885
the general story, that's not an organic continuation of what TLJ was going for.

Yes, I agree, which is why I said: "If JJ or Kennedy had actually properly done even the most basic of basic outlines to start, they could have at least put allusions or seeds for Palpatine/Exogol/larger Sith plot in the first two movies."

As it is now, RoS feels completely inorganic and contrived, you're right.
 

Spring-Loaded

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,904
Always felt like the praise for that script was overblown, especially as it would be heavily reliant on Trevorrow's ability to execute it on screen and, well, he ain't exactly a great director.

TRoS is just that bad.
Was Rey actually going to have the dual blade saber in his version? Cause that was such an obvious move, I still cannot fucking believe we didn't get it in Rise of Skywalker.

Yeah, it's especially goofy after seeing her use a staff as a weapon so much. They could've had their "take both sabers, cuz it's better" malarkey and have it be consistent with her fighting style.

But alas
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,439
Yes, I agree, which is why I said: "If JJ or Kennedy had actually properly done even the most basic of basic outlines to start, they could have at least put allusions or seeds for Palpatine/Exogol/larger Sith plot in the first two movies."

As it is now, RoS feels completely inorganic and contrived, you're right.
Imo you don't resurrect Palpatine and weaken the impact of Anakin's sacrifice, even with a more cohesive script. They had the line when Anakin's ghost saying ''bring back the balance, like I did' whatever that means. I think the idea is fundamentally flawed and thematically confusing.
 

OneTrueJack

Member
Aug 30, 2020
4,645
I actually super appreciate your contributions to this thread because you presented some really interesting theme analysis of RoS I have not seen before. Unfortunately, you have to kind of wipe away the incredibly lazy and superficial stuff RoS ended up doing in order to find these.

Things RoS did that actively undermine the themes you've outlined:

- "Somehow Palpatine has returned": this single line is probably the laziest thing I've ever seen in a popular franchise film. If JJ or Kennedy had actually properly done even the most basic of basic outlines to start, they could have at least put allusions or seeds for Palpatine/Exogol/larger Sith plot in the first two movies. Nothing grand or intrusive but like, something. Even a short 5 minute introduction scene in RoS itself explaining why it took Palps 30 years to do anything would have been been lightyears better than Poe's line. There's a really funny animation by WorthiKids that shows Palps repairing his body super slowly via force magic. Even that would have been something, lmao.

- The new characters (other than Rey and Kylo) being relegated to the background. Finn being shoved to tertiary character status after Force Awakens setting him up as at least a deuteragonist is completely fucked.

- The knife/bounty hunter/Rey's parents subplot. This was just not well thought out spatially or even logically. The whole sequence completely falls apart if you stop to think about it for even a milisecond.

I could go on, but it's really just death by a thousand cuts of laziness. You've already acknowledge the execution of RoS was bad though so I'm probably preaching to the choir.

Final thought: Even when I first saw RoS, I really like the final confrontation between Palps, Rey, Kylo, and the Knights of Ren on an action/symbolic level. Just wish the movie had earned it/built to it the same way TLJ built to the royal guard fight.
The knife thing is stupidly overcomplicated. The whole structure of the second act is the film's biggest failing, IMO. I have to imagine that's the first thing they would have changed if they had more time to work on the story.

I really want to see the three-hour cut of Episode IX that's apparently just sitting in the Lucasfilm archive. It apparently greatly improves the pacing.
 

Vertpin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,894
Thankfully he could finish another epic saga

www.rottentomatoes.com

Jurassic World Dominion

This summer, experience the epic conclusion to the Jurassic era as two generations unite for the first time. Chris Pratt and Bryce Dallas Howard are joined by Oscar®-winner Laura Dern, Jeff Goldblum and Sam Neill in Jurassic World Dominion, a bold, timely and breathtaking new adventure that...
🤣🤣🤣
 
OP
OP
DiipuSurotu

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
Final thought: Even when I first saw RoS, I really like the final confrontation between Palps, Rey, Kylo, and the Knights of Ren on an action/symbolic level. Just wish the movie had earned it/built to it the same way TLJ built to the royal guard fight.

The Knights of Ren were completely wasted IMO
 

random88

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,291
Not US
On paper, while not great, Duel of Fates definitely seems better than The Rise of Skywalker. Literally anything would have been better than bringing Palpatine back and having him at the climax of the film.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,439
Yup, such a cool idea barely used at all. Damn shame.
There were a few interesting plot threads to use for the episode IX like the knights of Ren (who could have been Luke's other appreciates who sided with him) and there was an interesting set up of an insurrection against Kylo Ren, with Hux considering shooting him when he's down, and when he suffers a great humiliation on Crait. I never really bought when people say there wasn't enough good ideas to write for episode IX.

Then you could also have threads like the knights learning Kylo killed Snoke, or tying parts of the story to the war profiteers in Canto Bight.
 

spootime

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,432
According to The Art of The Rise of Skywalker, many of the controversial decisions in The Rise of Skywalker were made before The Last Jedi hit theaters. Palpatine was already back, Rey was likely already related to him, Poe was given a checkered past, Finn got a new character to pal around with, and Rose had little to do. All of that happened before the public saw The Last Jedi.
This is really interesting but even more puzzling? Why is there so much discontinuity between these films lol.
 

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,234
It COULD have been good, I would never say that Trevorrow WOULD have made a good movie but there was a chance. The script was only 1 of 300 things wrong with TROS and those 299 other things could have been terrible in Trevorrow's movie too
 

Sulik2

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,168
Said no one who's ever worked on a film trilogy ever, including George Lucas.

This has changed in the last 15 years because of marvel and the growth of the 5 year tv show. There is absolutely an expectation among fans that movies and TV shows should have a certain amount of planning for multi-year arcs. Lucas film absolutely fucked up by letting Abrams mystery box TFA and not planning a proper trilogy. Then they let Johnson make a movie that felt like the end of trilogy with nowhere to go and flushed out the abomination of the RoS. They absolutely should have cracked the overall story of the trilogy beforehand.
 

spootime

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,432
This has changed in the last 15 years because of marvel and the growth of the 5 year tv show. There is absolutely an expectation among fans that movies and TV shows should have a certain amount of planning for multi-year arcs. Lucas film absolutely fucked up by letting Abrams mystery box TFA and not planning a proper trilogy. Then they let Johnson make a movie that felt like the end of trilogy with nowhere to go and flushed out the abomination of the RoS. They absolutely should have cracked the overall story of the trilogy beforehand.
It's also not the best comparison because Lucas was still the creative leader behind the original trilogy, regardless of his degree of involvement with writing and directing.
 

OneTrueJack

Member
Aug 30, 2020
4,645
According to The Art of The Rise of Skywalker, many of the controversial decisions in The Rise of Skywalker were made before The Last Jedi hit theaters. Palpatine was already back, Rey was likely already related to him, Poe was given a checkered past, Finn got a new character to pal around with, and Rose had little to do. All of that happened before the public saw The Last Jedi.
Shhh! Get out of here with your logical arguments and basic grasp of production timelines. People have decided that Abrams is the evil leader of a grand conspiracy to *checks notes* "undermine the thematic weight of one one random movie that he himself actually liked for literally no reason" and that's all their is to it.
This has changed in the last 15 years because of marvel and the growth of the 5 year tv show. There is absolutely an expectation among fans that movies and TV shows should have a certain amount of planning for multi-year arcs. Lucas film absolutely fucked up by letting Abrams mystery box TFA and not planning a proper trilogy. Then they let Johnson make a movie that felt like the end of trilogy with nowhere to go and flushed out the abomination of the RoS. They absolutely should have cracked the overall story of the trilogy beforehand.
Just because people ask for it doesn't make it a good idea. Here's the big secret - Even Marvel Studios doesn't do what those people are asking for. They're making it all up as they go along too. They're just better at it.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,439
Shhh! Get out of here with your logical arguments and basic grasp of production timelines. People have decided that Abrams is the evil leader of a grand conspiracy to *checks notes* "undermine the thematic weight of one one random movie that he himself actually liked for literally no reason" and that's all their is to it.
I stick by what I said, I believe TROS was reactionary to TLJ haters online and there was a sort of agenda there. Like it's weird when they cut Rose and make up reasons it was done for technical reasons. (They're the writers, they could imagine more scenes for her, it wasn't technically impossible to include her in scenes without Leia or to give Monaghan's lines to her)

And in the main story Daisy Ridley said the Palpatine twist was in flux, and it's so specifically written, and nonsensical, forced in, saying her parents sold her to protect her, and the plot is trying so hard to fit it in that her parents must be from a special family, that I do believe they had some agenda there, rather than what makes sense for the story. 'Lessons from the Star Wars Saga' had an article covering the third act of TLJ, saying how important it is heroes can be anyone and referring to Rey as a nobody but saying that makes her an empowering hero, then the next film goes against that message. I believe the decision was forced in and not a natural creative choice.
 

disparate

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,904
I stick by what I said, I believe TROS was reactionary to TLJ haters online and there was a sort of agenda there. Like it's weird when they cut Rose and make up reasons it was done for technical reasons. (They're the writers, they could imagine more scenes for her, it wasn't technically impossible to include her in scenes without Leia or to give Monaghan's lines to her)

And in the main story Daisy Ridley said the Palpatine twist was in flux, and it's so specifically written, and nonsensical, forced in, saying her parents sold her to protect her, and the plot is trying so hard to fit it in her that parents must be someone special, that I do believe they had some agenda there, rather than what makes sense for the story. 'Lessons from the Star Wars Saga' had an article covering the third act of the TLJ, saying how important it is heroes can be anyone and referring to Rey as a nobody but saying that makes her an empowering hero, then the next film goes against that message. I believe the decision was forced in and not a natural creative choice.
I think it's just more reasonable to assume that the films and creative vision for the IP is bad rather than this.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,409
Even if the movie ended up being as bad, it would at least had the advantage of doing new stuff for the Star Wars Universe, instead of that lame attempt at nostalgia and at pleasing the anti TLJ crowd and ass hats.

Yep, exactly. The prequels were bad (worse, I'd say, than the ST in terms of execution) but they had some interesting ideas at the core, so other people were able to build on top of them for years to come.

PT = good ideas, bad execution
ST = no new ideas, better execution (in terms of acting, directing, etc)

While the ST is far more watchable, even including TROS turd, they bring hardly anything new to the universe outside of a few things from TLJ.
 

elLOaSTy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,848
According to The Art of The Rise of Skywalker, many of the controversial decisions in The Rise of Skywalker were made before The Last Jedi hit theaters. Palpatine was already back, Rey was likely already related to him, Poe was given a checkered past, Finn got a new character to pal around with, and Rose had little to do. All of that happened before the public saw The Last Jedi.

People's head canon that it was all Disney bending to Alt Right boys and JJ was out for blood because of TLJ will never believe this. It's true, all of it. Also TROS isn't that bad and it's no more of a rebuke of TLJ than TLJ was of TFA.

Seeing that that RT score for the new JW makes me laugh knowing Trevorrow never would have made the epic people think it would have been and I feel confident it would have been viewed as a bigger mess than TROS.

The fact is the fandom is too toxic now and people have drawn lines in the sand because somehow they got the idea that if you dont put TLJ as the greatest SW movie then you're a Nazi
 

Nappuccino

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,025
People's head canon that it was all Disney bending to Alt Right boys and JJ was out for blood because of TLJ will never believe this. It's true, all of it. Also TROS isn't that bad and it's no more of a rebuke of TLJ than TLJ was of TFA.

Seeing that that RT score for the new JW makes me laugh knowing Trevorrow never would have made the epic people think it would have been and I feel confident it would have been viewed as a bigger mess than TROS.

The fact is the fandom is too toxic now and people have drawn lines in the sand because somehow they got the idea that if you dont put TLJ as the greatest SW movie then you're a Nazi
Surely it's not because most of the toxic people in the fandom creating that narrative /are/ alt-right, anti-SJW nazi types.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,439
somehow they got the idea that if you dont put TLJ as the greatest SW movie then you're a Nazi
No one is saying that, I don't understand what you're writing. A lot of haters are questionable types but I don't understand where you're going with saying we think they're all nazis if they didn't enjoy it.
 

elLOaSTy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,848
No one is saying that, I don't understand what you're writing.

See below

Surely it's not because most of the toxic people in the fandom creating that narrative /are/ alt-right, anti-SJW nazi types.

THere's a lot of people who aren't, most of them aren't there's just a very small very loud contingent that are and its fucked up how toxic it is now even to those who aren't nazi's to paint with such a brush.

It's like everyone forgot that TFA had just as much sexism, racism thrown at it when it released and when TLJ happened everyone decided this movie was the calling card for goodness and if you disagree you're bad. It's just not what average people think at all, not even close, in fact I know very few people who like TLJ and not one is a nazi fuck. They're just not terminally online
 

Lemony1984

Member
Jul 7, 2020
6,722
Lol. There's no way Trevorrow would have made a good Star Wars movie. I know this becuase he's literally never made a good movie. It would have been equally bad but just in a different way.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,439
See below



THere's a lot of people who aren't, most of them aren't there's just a very small very loud contingent that are and its fucked up how toxic it is now even to those who aren't nazi's to paint with such a brush.

It's like everyone forgot that TFA had just as much sexism, racism thrown at it when it released and when TLJ happened everyone decided this movie was the calling card for goodness and if you disagree you're bad. It's just not what average people think at all, not even close, in fact I know very few people who like TLJ and not one is a nazi fuck. They're just not terminally online
To be fair, as I read it, they didn't say they were all "Nazis", they were mentioning those alongside the "Toxic people' were "Alt right, anti SJW, nazis types" and they weren't targetting casual movie watchers who may have not enjoyed it and calling them nazis.
 

Nappuccino

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,025
See below



THere's a lot of people who aren't, most of them aren't there's just a very small very loud contingent that are and its fucked up how toxic it is now even to those who aren't nazi's to paint with such a brush.

It's like everyone forgot that TFA had just as much sexism, racism thrown at it when it released and when TLJ happened everyone decided this movie was the calling card for goodness and if you disagree you're bad. It's just not what average people think at all, not even close, in fact I know very few people who like TLJ and not one is a nazi fuck. They're just not terminally online
There are legitimate complaints about TLJ (I have my own), and then there are people who try to handwave all the toxicity as if it /isn't/ completely bolstered by messaging from online alt-right youtubers because they want to believe that only the people who like the movie who are the problem. Guess which one you're doing.
 

elLOaSTy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,848
To be fair, as I read it, they didn't say they were all "Nazis", they were mentioning those alongside the "Toxic people' were "Alt right, anti SJW, nazis types" and they weren't targetting casual movie watchers who may have not enjoyed it and calling them nazis.

Except many of them were and are everyday still, people see TLJ criticism and just go ham, people see TROS fans and go after them, it's common here and all over the internet. Just because people aren't being disgusting like the actual Alt right nazi fucks doesn't mean they can't be bullies online and it's toxic.

Also my main point is still being disregarded because no one wants to acknowledge it. There's nothing special about the hate that TLJ received, it was there for TFA and drove Daisy off social media with sexism the same way they used racism to hurt KMT and those assholes can go fuck off up a tree.

TROS had similar shit going down and I just don't know why we have people fighting one another over these movies when not a single one of them was made to capitulate to these asshats. Thats why my original response was pointed at the OP{ part about how these decisions were made before the public ever even saw TLJ.

We can't simply ignore the context of my reply to make it something it wasn't.

There are legitimate complaints about TLJ (I have my own), and then there are people who try to handwave all the toxicity as if it /isn't/ completely bolstered by messaging from online alt-right youtubers because they want to believe that only the people who like the movie who are the problem. Guess which one you're doing.

I'm not hand waving it, however I am calling out the toxicity around TROS from TLJ Stans. It's like being a PT fan 20 years ago. It's fucking miserable and just because TLJ fans aren't nazi's doesn't mean they aren't being toxic about it. I also know that there is very poor online moderation so it's easier top paint with a broad brush and to be aggressive against people are harmful which is what I believe most of that stems from but it doesn't make it right either.

I'm also not here to discuss the flaws of TLJ, this was a response to the OP I originally had. You're also proving my point that somehow TLJ is special and TFA and TROS BOTH didn't have massive amounts of hate directed at them. There's some weird coalescing that happens around this movie that ignores this.
 

Ziltoidia 9

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,143
A think when it comes down to it, the sequel trilogies were doomed to fail from the beginning because what ever story they tried to tell in 3 episodes would be dwarfed by the OT where the galaxy is saved and Anakin turned back to the light. There were 6 movies of building to that point. The ST only have 3 to work with. And the weird part is, there is hardly any character development at all in the ST.

Issues the ST had that contributed to the trilogy close being shitty:
- Carrie died. This could have changed the story so much, if she hadn't died.

- Rey's story not being known apparently by the writers. This is the most important one, IMO. TLJ picking up basically right after TFA. For me, it is not believable for Rey's character to do all that she does within that time period. The first two movies literally take place within like, a week, at most. I feel a more interesting way to set up her character would have been to show her using the force already, even though she didn't have a teacher. She didn't have to have been using major abilities, but she could have used force jump and grab in the star destroyer wreckage. She could have used things like force push during fights. This fact about her charactor would have fixed so much.

- No world building in TFA that would have let the viewer know how the galaxy is doing.
- We never see The New Republic that was fought for, so when it is destroyed by Starkiller base, we don't care.
- How they handle Luke. All I will say is, it made no sense. Why would Luke leave a way for them to find him if he wasn't going to help them anyway? Neverminded the fact that they assassinated his character without showing us why he was the way he was.
- They tried to use side media to fill in the gaps, not realizing that people don't have time to read all the books, etc. I guess you can do this if you want, but you have to make the actual movies be able to stand on their own.
- They disregarded ROTJ's ending and made Anakin's story mean basically nothing. Of course fans are going to hate the story.
- They lied to their fans. They said Snoke was someone who had watched the rise and fall of the empire and was hundreds of years old. Nope, he was just a clone that was made by Sheevy-doo.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,378
I stick by what I said, I believe TROS was reactionary to TLJ haters online and there was a sort of agenda there. Like it's weird when they cut Rose and make up reasons it was done for technical reasons. (They're the writers, they could imagine more scenes for her, it wasn't technically impossible to include her in scenes without Leia or to give Monaghan's lines to her)
The easiest route if they just wanted to please people who disliked TLJ would have been retconning Luke's death. But they doubled down on that and didn't even give much of a role to his force ghost. I really don't think that makes sense if they were just being reactive to TLJ's backlash.
 
Jan 20, 2022
3,461
I have very little respect for JJ Abrams as a filmmaker. But I can't say I have any more confidence in Treverrow. Rian Johnson should have just made the entire trilogy. He inherited something extraordinarily basic and underwhelming, tried turning it into something at least marginally interesting, only for it to get forced back into something extraordinarily basic and underwhelming
 

Ziltoidia 9

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,143
The easiest route if they just wanted to please people who disliked TLJ would have been retconning Luke's death. But they doubled down on that and didn't even give much of a role to his force ghost. I really don't think that makes sense if they were just being reactive to TLJ's backlash.

When I saw TLJ, and luke said "See you around, Kid", I thought we would get a lot of Luke harrassing Kylo as a force ghost.
 

Auros01

Avenger
Nov 17, 2017
5,511
Lol. There's no way Trevorrow would have made a good Star Wars movie. I know this becuase he's literally never made a good movie. It would have been equally bad but just in a different way.
This.

The mental gymnastics people go through to convince themselves he would've made a good Star Wars movie is exhausting, at this point. A good/interesting script =/= a good movie.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,439
The easiest route if they just wanted to please people who disliked TLJ would have been retconning Luke's death. But they doubled down on that and didn't even give much of a role to his force ghost. I really don't think that makes sense if they were just being reactive to TLJ's backlash.
I didn't really see a lot of those fans saying they should ressurect Luke Skywalker, I saw them saying they shouldn't have killed him off in the first place. I saw angry fans saying the story won't work without an emperor type villian after Snoke was killed. They said Kylo Ren and Hux weren't intimidating enought to be the villians (Kylo Ren is usurpered by Palpatine, Hux is killed and replaced as secondary antagonist by General Pyrde) I saw them saying "Kylo shouldn't have destroyed his iconic mask" (and he welds it back together with red gel) I saw them hating Rose and she gets reduced to 1 minute. I saw them saying they should add more to the Rey revelation and perhaps Kylo Ren was lying (Even though it was Rey who admitted her parents were nobodies) They were arguing about Holdo's sacrifice all time, and they have a very unsubtle scene speaking to the small subset of the audience who complained, trying to explain how it works I find it clear the movie was reactionary.
 

Nappuccino

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,025
I'm also not here to discuss the flaws of TLJ, this was a response to the OP I originally had. You're also proving my point that somehow TLJ is special and TFA and TROS BOTH didn't have massive amounts of hate directed at them. There's some weird coalescing that happens around this movie that ignores this.
All of them have flaws. But I think you're misjudging the kind of criticism that happened to TFA versus the kind that began with TLJ (and continues still). Nothing in my post said TLJ was special or absolved from criticism.

Similarly, you're ignoring how this is a vicious cycle that feeds itself. And yet, one side is fueled largely by rhetoric framed from toxic altrighters/gamergaters and the other is responding to those voices. You can't remove that context and then point the blame solely at people defending TLJ.
 

JetmanJay

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,506
Irrespective of whether or not Colin would have made a good movie if it, Every. Single. Aspect. of the leaked script sounded miles better than what we ended up getting. The Revolution on Coruscant. Finn having a role in turning and redeeming First Order troopers. Rey's staff saber. Rey's fight scene with the Knights of Ren. Rey embracing Grey Jedi ideals. Kylo being trolled by Force Ghost Luke. Kylo learning from that Dark Side creature. Kylo's new helmet. Etc etc. All of it on paper sounded far more interesting than anything in TRoS.
Would still love an animated version of this.
Call it Star Wars Vision:Duel of Fates.
 

elLOaSTy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,848
All of them have flaws. But I think you're misjudging the kind of criticism that happened to TFA versus the kind that began with TLJ (and continues still). Nothing in my post said TLJ was special or absolved from criticism.

Similarly, you're ignoring how this is a vicious cycle that feeds itself. And yet, one side is fueled largely by rhetoric framed from toxic altrighters/gamergaters and the other is responding to those voices. You can't remove that context and then point the blame solely at people defending TLJ.

You're wrong, they drove Daisy Ridley off of the internet, they were ruthless to boyega. There were non stop hateful memes and comments and it started with TFA and it hit a boiling point with TLJ. Then internet created a narrative around the changes to the story that had nothing to do with fan reaction to TLJ because those changes happened before the movie even came out which was the entire point of my initial reply.
 

Nappuccino

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,025
You're wrong, they drove Daisy Ridley off of the internet, they were ruthless to boyega. There were non stop hateful memes and comments and it started with TFA and it hit a boiling point with TLJ. Then internet created a narrative around the changes to the story that had nothing to do with fan reaction to TLJ because those changes happened before the movie even came out which was the entire point of my initial reply.
Ok my memory of that time was a little foggy. But what you're saying is the critics of these films were terrible and abusive before TLJ and continued to be so through TLJ. You're making the case that the worst and most toxic groups are those who aren't defending the films.
 

elLOaSTy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,848
Ok my memory of that time was a little foggy. But what you're saying is the critics of these films were terrible and abusive before TLJ and continued to be so through TLJ. You're making the case that the worst and most toxic groups are those who aren't defending the films.

Yes HOWEVER for some reason everyone decided after TLJ came out to forget this and since then (by accident, time, or just didn't pay attention) ignore that TFA/TROS also had plenty of hate from these same people and acted as if TROS was a full rebuke of TLJ because of the internet nazis. Even though the movies decisions everyone uses as proof of this had been made before anyone even could react to TLJ.

So instead of making TLJ the movie of the people and TROS was to make the nazis feel good we should actually just not be making such harsh strong comments all the time unless someone is actually saying awful shit. I mean we dont get too much of those asshats on YouTube with their awful videos here on Era, partially because if they did they would get deservedly banned. Yet any TLJ and TROS thread turns into comments about how TROS choices were made to appease those assholes and anyone disagreeing must listen to and agree with those dumbasses. That just feels a little uneven and a bad way for there to be any constructive discourse.

There's no question people have been absolutely horrible on the internet about these films, and TLJ was certainly the peak of it but the narrative of if you like TLJ you're good and if you hate it your bad has got to fucking end. Even if you're not the one saying that, I'm not calling you or any person in particular out but it is certainly a thing that exists and why I bothered to make my initial comment that I'm still defending which is that it's a fiction the internet decided upon.
 

Nappuccino

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,025
So instead of making TLJ the movie of the people and TROS was to make the nazis feel good we should actually just not be making such harsh strong comments all the time unless someone is actually saying awful shit. I mean we dont get too much of those asshats on YouTube with their awful videos here on Era, partially because if they did they would get deservedly banned. Yet any TLJ and TROS thread turns into comments about how TROS choices were made to appease those assholes and anyone disagreeing must listen to and agree with those dumbasses. That just feels a little uneven and a bad way for there to be any constructive discourse.
All right, but these aren't the points I responded to initially.
 

br0ken_shad0w

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,095
Washington
While no doubt Trevorrow would fuck up the execution, his script at least felt like a sequel to TLJ instead of actively working against it like TROS.

Disney really shouldn't have stuck to the 2 year production cycle. The third movie in particular could have used another year to account for Fisher's death as well as deal with Trevorrow's exit. But greed trounces all and now we're only going to get Imperial era SW media from here till the end of time.
 

Cudpug

Member
Nov 9, 2017
3,560
It couldn't have been much worse than Rise of Skywalker, which was a diabolical film that single handedly made me reanalyse the industry and question, perhaps more than any other film, "how can you spend millions of dollars and end up with THIS?"
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,206
I stick by what I said, I believe TROS was reactionary to TLJ haters online and there was a sort of agenda there. Like it's weird when they cut Rose and make up reasons it was done for technical reasons. (They're the writers, they could imagine more scenes for her, it wasn't technically impossible to include her in scenes without Leia or to give Monaghan's lines to her)

And in the main story Daisy Ridley said the Palpatine twist was in flux, and it's so specifically written, and nonsensical, forced in, saying her parents sold her to protect her, and the plot is trying so hard to fit it in that her parents must be from a special family, that I do believe they had some agenda there, rather than what makes sense for the story. 'Lessons from the Star Wars Saga' had an article covering the third act of TLJ, saying how important it is heroes can be anyone and referring to Rey as a nobody but saying that makes her an empowering hero, then the next film goes against that message. I believe the decision was forced in and not a natural creative choice.
Not to mention Terrio himself said tehy were making changes to the script up to and during filming if I'm not mistaken.
 

Cranster

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,788
While no doubt Trevorrow would fuck up the execution, his script at least felt like a sequel to TLJ instead of actively working against it like TROS.

Disney really shouldn't have stuck to the 2 year production cycle. The third movie in particular could have used another year to account for Fisher's death as well as deal with Trevorrow's exit. But greed trounces all and now we're only going to get Imperial era SW media from here till the end of time.
Unfortunately an extra year would have meant even more production issues due to covid.