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Aug 12, 2019
5,159
if you had more democrats, it wouldnt be happening. so,... yeah,... vote.

I mean, you'd need 60 to break the Filibuster here or 50 that were on board with a nuclear option, so you'd need the most incredibly successful past 3 elections for anything to be on the table here. Even if Dems picked up Iowa, North Carolina, and Maine in 2020, held Florida in 2018, and picked up Missouri, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin in 2016 (which requires a small miracle that Dems never took any losses when those would be majority numbers all throughout Trump's Presidency), you'd still be 3 short of breaking a Filibuster that all 50 Republicans have supported against raising the Debt Ceiling. And we have Manchin and Sinema definitely not breaking the filibuster for any reason, Feinstein has honestly never been reliably on board with it, Coons and Carper are bafflingly resistant to filibuster reform, and King and Tester are kind of less inclined to go that route as well (and Nelson probably would have been a Blue Dog pain in the ass too had he not lost in 2018). Which is to say even with 57 Democratic Senators taking all the possibly winnable seats in the past 3 election cycles, you wouldn't really arrive at a position that would prevent this either.

Democrats effectively need a 60 person super majority to do ANYTHING worth doing and there's virtually no path to that reality even if people had "voted better" or whatever.
 

ThatBigDude

Banned
Sep 13, 2021
343
It's ridiculous that this is even possible. Like, there should be an official minimum budget that goes into effect if the parties can't agree to shit so regular citizens don't get fucked over
 

chuey

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,036
no3gkj130dq71.png


No more avocado toast!
 

rjinaz

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
28,386
Phoenix
I dont think they could spin it though. Democrats are not doing anything to actively shutdown the gov and default. Republicans are by refusing debate and votes.
The American voting populace is just not that smart. They don't care about context, at all, they will only care about who was in charge when it happened. The end. It would wreck the Democratic party.
 

The Hobo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,025
People need to stop giving Republicans the benefit of the doubt on anything. They will do whatever it takes to regain and retain power.
 

TLD

alt account
Banned
Sep 24, 2021
20
I mean, you'd need 60 to break the Filibuster here or 50 that were on board with a nuclear option, so you'd need the most incredibly successful past 3 elections for anything to be on the table here. Even if Dems picked up Iowa, North Carolina, and Maine in 2020, held Florida in 2018, and picked up Missouri, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin in 2016 (which requires a small miracle that Dems never took any losses when those would be majority numbers all throughout Trump's Presidency), you'd still be 3 short of breaking a Filibuster that all 50 Republicans have supported against raising the Debt Ceiling. And we have Manchin and Sinema definitely not breaking the filibuster for any reason, Feinstein has honestly never been reliably on board with it, Coons and Carper are bafflingly resistant to filibuster reform, and King and Tester are kind of less inclined to go that route as well (and Nelson probably would have been a Blue Dog pain in the ass too had he not lost in 2018). Which is to say even with 57 Democratic Senators taking all the possibly winnable seats in the past 3 election cycles, you wouldn't really arrive at a position that would prevent this either.

Democrats effectively need a 60 person super majority to do ANYTHING worth doing and there's virtually no path to that reality even if people had "voted better" or whatever.

Your message doesn't play with people who think "just voting" is the answer.
 
May 26, 2018
23,998
Your message doesn't play with people who think "just voting" is the answer.

I mean, shit, Obama had 60 and barely got ACA passed. Ideally you'd need more like 62 or 63 to keep Joe Lieberman and Joe Manchin types still from screwing it up.

We're talking about levels of electoral/cultural impossibility here that would require a literal dictatorship fixing the vote. And then, well, purpose defeated anyway.
 

TLD

alt account
Banned
Sep 24, 2021
20
I mean, shit, Obama had 60 and barely got ACA passed. Ideally you'd need more like 62 or 63 to keep Joe Lieberman and Joe Manchin types still from screwing it up.

We're talking about levels of electoral/cultural impossibility here that would require a literal dictatorship fixing the vote. And then, well, purpose defeated anyway.
People need to wake up and realize this country was designed to be gridlocked and run by the rich from the ground up. There is no "threat" to democracy, it was DESIGNED this way on purpose. Republicans and Democrats serve the exact same master, it's why you only get 1 page threads on here about the border crisis and kids STILL being in cages, just because Biden won. It's lunacy.
 

KAMI-SAMA

Banned
Aug 25, 2020
5,496
I now understand why some countries criticize/mock democratic societies m/governments. Not that I agree with them necessarily but I understand.
 

asmith906

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,355
You're being absolutely delusional if you think either side would intentionally tank the financial buying power of the US, never mind the possibility of triggering a global financial crisis.
We've literally been through this dance a few times that has led to both a shutdown of the government and downgrade of the United States rating.

I actually don't know why Republicans do this because it never seem to work in their favor.
 

Jerm411

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,014
Clinton, MO
So *IF* this were to happen and I understand it's prevailing knowledge it won't, but if it were to happen are we talking about immediate ramifications and it going to hell quickly?

I'm not trying to fear monger, I'm just not well versed in this stuff and genuinely curious and afraid.
 
Oct 29, 2017
13,470
So *IF* this were to happen and I understand it's prevailing knowledge it won't, but if it were to happen are we talking about immediate ramifications and it going to hell quickly?

I'm not trying to fear monger, I'm just not well versed in this stuff and genuinely curious and afraid.

No. More like government funded programs, federal employees, etc won't get funding/paid/etc.

If I'm not mistaken, this is similar (if not the same) as the government shutdowns we've seen before if it even gets to that point.
 

Foltzie

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
6,780
It's ridiculous that this is even possible. Like, there should be an official minimum budget that goes into effect if the parties can't agree to shit so regular citizens don't get fucked over
Its a side effect of these sorts of things needed to be authorized in some fashion by the legistlature.

There have been attempts at mandatory restrictions, and balanced budget constitutional amendments, but those are impractical and dont pass or get overridden.

At least in the past, the legislature had a more direct role in funding allocations, but modern contracting has bills coming due that have been allocated, but a debt ceiling that is managed via a different mechanism. Ideally, the debt ceiling would be waived altogether and more focus on congressional spending bills.

 

Foltzie

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
6,780
So *IF* this were to happen and I understand it's prevailing knowledge it won't, but if it were to happen are we talking about immediate ramifications and it going to hell quickly?

I'm not trying to fear monger, I'm just not well versed in this stuff and genuinely curious and afraid.
The Rs are trying to bait the Ds into using a legislative mechanism call reconciliation that opens them to attacks, the Ds may take the bait and pass it as a part of the overall 3.5T bill that Biden wants, but thats not quite ready to go ( Biden needs Manchin and Sinema locked down before proceeding).

If things get to a shut down, many services will go on pause. The media coverage will likely be heavily negative against the republicans. I also expect that calls for filibuster reform may get more traction, which is what makes this game a little weird to play for the Rs.
 

Jerm411

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,014
Clinton, MO
The Rs are trying to bait the Ds into using a legislative mechanism call reconciliation that opens them to attacks, the Ds may take the bait and pass it as a part of the overall 3.5T bill that Biden wants, but thats not quite ready to go ( Biden needs Manchin and Sinema locked down before proceeding).

If things get to a shut down, many services will go on pause. The media coverage will likely be heavily negative against the republicans. I also expect that calls for filibuster reform may get more traction, which is what makes this game a little weird to play for the Rs.

So basically as in everything else in politics concerning Rs, they're playing games and throwing fits on the floor to get what they want?
 

rjinaz

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
28,386
Phoenix
People need to stop giving Republicans the benefit of the doubt on anything. They will do whatever it takes to regain and retain power.
This is why Republicans are going full speed ahead with breaking norms, because people continue to let them lower the bar.

"That sucks they did that, but at least they didn't do THAT"
"Ok, they did that, but there is still THAT and they would never do that."
"Well it's not that big of a deal that they did that, because there is still THAT which they would never do"
"Ok they did that, and that, and that, but, you're delusional if you think they'll do THAT!"
Republicans do that.
"Why do Democrats keep doing this?!"
 

JaseC64

Enlightened
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,008
Strong Island NY
Can someone remind me why the Gov shut down like 2 times under Trump? The last one being like 3 weeks or something. Wad that different as in self inflicted or were Dems involved? All I remember obviously Trump came out looking bad or at least I hope.
 

MonoStable

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,051
Can someone remind me why the Gov shut down like 2 times under Trump? The last one being like 3 weeks or something. Wad that different as in self inflicted or were Dems involved? All I remember obviously Trump came out looking bad or at least I hope.

Trump vetoed his own spending bill after they made fun of him on his favorite TV shows.
 

Foltzie

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
6,780
So basically as in everything else in politics concerning Rs, they're playing games and throwing fits on the floor to get what they want?
McConnell in particular has been good at maneuvering his opposition into changing rules that he then is able to exploit. He did it with the district and circuit court judges, then used that change to place SC judges.

The threat to use the filibuster against Ds in the future is real, but changing it to be a talking sustained filibuster would be perfect. Ds could hold the floor in the future for important items vs forcing Rs to talk against letting people vote for example.
 

Katamari

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
1,125
Now I'm wondering how likely a republican-controlled senate or house refuses to pass a budget or raise debt ceiling after midterms all to sink Biden.
 

Tahnit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,965
If the US defaults it will destroy the world economy and push us into a depression. I don't think republicans will be that desperate.
 

GoldenEye 007

Roll Tide, Y'all!
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,833
Texas
If the US defaults it will destroy the world economy and push us into a depression. I don't think republicans will be that desperate.
I think they would love it going into a midterm with a Dem trifecta government. Even if that trifecta is barely a thing due to the shit-tier nature of people like Krysten Sinema and Joe Manchin.
 

Foltzie

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
6,780
I think they would love it going into a midterm with a Dem trifecta government. Even if that trifecta is barely a thing due to the shit-tier nature of people like Krysten Sinema and Joe Manchin.
The gambit is not that a shut down will harm the Ds, it has been shown that the Rs take the blowback pretty consistently. Rather the gambit is that the Ds will make politically damaging moves to hold off a shut down because a shut down can harm people.
 

ZiZ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,716
Votes for funding Israel's Iron dome: 420-9
Votes for not tanking the economy: ???
 

rjinaz

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
28,386
Phoenix
Honestly this is what you would expect in a healthy democracy too. It's not the opposition's job to bail out the government...
So what you're saying is, Democrats should end the Senate filibuster. Because as of right now, it is literally the oppostions job to bail out the government since it requires 10 of their votes.
 

sangreal

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,890
So they're fighting over one billion dollars? Didn't they all just agree to give Israel one billion for the Iron Dome this week?
No, sorry, by 1 bill I meant the democrats want to package both issues into a single piece of legislation. The GOP doesn't want to do that, or allow Democrats to pass a debt ceiling raise easily, because they want to cause problems with an unrelated bill. But the looming shutdown is not actually related to the debt ceiling "crisis"
 

PunchyMalone

Member
May 1, 2018
2,248
No, sorry, by 1 bill I meant the democrats want to package both issues into a single piece of legislation. The GOP doesn't want to do that, or allow Democrats to pass a debt ceiling raise easily, because they want to cause problems with an unrelated bill. But the looming shutdown is not actually related to the debt ceiling "crisis"

Oh, lol. I thought I had to be missing something there.
 

MotherFan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
659
The US defaulting is one of the worst possible things that could happen to the US economy, or the world economy for that matter. It has happened before, but only based on a technical glitch and not because we ran out of money, and the market catered until the glitch was fixed. If we default intentionally, then at best it is 2008 all over again, even if it was only for a few hours. Thankfully, I doubt anyone wants this to happen, and this can be done through reconciliation, so the Republicans can be sidestepped for this.