CNN :'Things could get very ugly': Experts fear post-election crisis...

[Ayato_Kanzaki]

If Trump loses he will throw a huge tantrum for sure. He will still have to leave. Nothing to worry about.

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There is plenty to worry about. First, he won't ever admit losing the popular vote. He's just incapable of it. And his screams about rigged elections might push a number of Qanon and cultist fanatics to acts of violence. Second, just wait until you hear about this admin sabotaging the new administration. It will take years for the new one to be up and running at Obama's era level of competence.

 

[III-V]

Baffling to me that the general response here is "well there's no procedural way he could do anything like that so it won't happen." As if what's written on the books matters to fascists. He's already testing out secret police in major US cities. Doesn't matter if staying in office and/or contesting the election is procedurally impossible if he has actual muscle behind him willing to follow his orders. That seems a not illegitimate fear to me.

EDIT: to be clear, I don't actually think this will happen. He's entirely too lazy and cognitively impaired to mastermind an actual uprising, he will give up and take to griping online and on his new tv network. But given the factual secret police patrolling in Seattle last weekend and Chicago this weekend, being anxious about the possibility seems far more rational to me than brushing it aside.

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The DHS is already ready and willing to serve as his military/police arm. That is abundantly clear.

 

[Ablacious]

Y'all don't remember that brief period where the Obama administration was going to help the prior transition and those weird photo ops? That was the closest I felt to the system collapsing, like it was purely done to assuage fear.
This year would be like that times 100.

 

[Blackage]

He absolutely won't go quietly into the night.

I'm not counting my chickens before they're hatched though, it's still gonna take a massive effort to elect him out, I could give a shit how the polls look.

 

[El_TigroX]

How Trump Could Lose the Election—And Still Remain President

It's possible only a "people's firewall" can prevent President Donald Trump from bringing "The Plot Against America" to life.

www.newsweek.com

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This is some dumb fan fiction. Sure, could this happen... yes... but it's an obscene long shot and would require a set of conditions to even have it happen. I think it's pretty low for Newsweek to publish this crap.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

The only thing that would worry me is the electoral college going rogue in the event of a trump election loss.

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The electors are chosen by the party that won that particular state's electoral votes. I think the risk of a bunch of D electors going rogue to vote for Trump is low.

 

[M-M]

The minute Biden takes the oath of office, Trump is no longer president and has no power to do anything.

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Just curious, but where do people saying things like this think power comes from?

Particularly for fascists or aspiring fascists.

 

[Deleted member 24052]

Baffling to me that the general response here is "well there's no procedural way he could do anything like that so it won't happen." As if what's written on the books matters to fascists. He's already testing out secret police in major US cities. Doesn't matter if staying in office and/or contesting the election is procedurally impossible if he has actual muscle behind him willing to follow his orders. That seems a not illegitimate fear to me.

EDIT: to be clear, I don't actually think this will happen. He's entirely too lazy and cognitively impaired to mastermind an actual uprising, he will give up and take to griping online and on his new tv network. But given the factual secret police patrolling in Seattle last weekend and Chicago this weekend, being anxious about the possibility seems far more rational to me than brushing it aside.

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You're not wrong, you shouldn't brush this aside because this is a very abnormal presidency. But the current fact of the matter is that he doesn't actually have that actual muscle behind him willing to follow orders. If he had the whole of military leadership behind him on this then absolutely, there's the muscle and that's more reason to be even more concerned. But a federal police force is not the military, which Biden becomes the commander in chief of in January in this hypothetical.

Be vigilant for the possibilities but articles like this one are just fear mongering for clicks.

 

[bevishead]

This post brought me straight back to 2016. "Nothing to worry about" indeed.

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I agree with your, that was foolish. It was hard not to feel confident when all the polls showed Clinton had it in the bag. Still I doubt Trump could do much to stay in office if he loses. He may delay getting out with BS, but he is getting out.

 

[Gigglepoo]

Not true. The constitution is the baseline for governing law in this country. If nobody or no governing institution upholds it, then sure we obviously would have a problem. But it is very unlikely that we would see the military side with Trump in this scenario, in which we have very clear instruction provided in the constitution.

Concession is not required, and so if he refuses to concede Biden still becomes the president in January. And again, that comes with all of the powers of his office even if Trump is barricaded in the White House.

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You should read what happened in previous disputed elections. The Constitution doesn't spell out how disputes should be resolved. For instance, in the Hayes/Tilden election, the Democratic House sided with one candidate and the Republican Senate sided with the other. Who was right? Tilden eventually stepped aside, but experts think we might have had a second Civil War if he didn't (this was a decade after the first war ended). And Gore ultimately stepped aside in 2000. What would have happened if he continued to fight? If half the country through he was the rightful president? The Constitution doesn't have an answer for that.

The Supreme Court has shown that they are not loyal to Trump, so I don't think we will see a repeat of 2000 Bush v Gore.

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The Supreme Court usually rules on precedents. And what's the latest precedent? Would you accept the Supreme Court siding with Trump in a disputed election?

 

[brochiller]

I do think messaging about how long results may take to come in deserves attention, but the focus needs to be on getting the votes for a crushing defeat. I'm not convinced he will lose at all yet so it's hard to think about the consequences of him trying to remain in office if he loses.

 

[LinkStrikesBack]

Oh, yeah, it's going to be a shitshow.

Either trump successfully rigs the election or he throws the mother of all tantrums and commands his nutjob followers to do god knows what.

 

[Harbinger00]

I'm less worried about Trump refusing to accept the results than I am him using his new secret police to ensure he wins.
That and his control over the future of the post office have me very worried about the legitimacy of the election.

 

[Deleted member 24052]

Lot of you are in here saying he has to abide by the law, and that there's nothing he can do to illegally remain in office after a loss.

Have you missed the past four years? He doesn't obey the law. The constitution doesn't mean shit to him or his administration.

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It doesn't have to mean shit to Trump if it means shit to everyone else, that's the point.

 

[Palette Swap]

Even if Trump does concede the race, the fear and pessimistic expectation among Democrats is Trump and his Administration will refuse to engage in the transition process prior administrations have done to ensure a smooth hand-over of power. Worst case scenario will be the Trump admin activity try to sabotage the transition as a final "FUCK YOU" to Biden:

Democrats are already bracing for a ‘hostile’ Trump transition

They’re not measuring any drapes. But Democrats fear Trump and his aides won’t meet, share documents or otherwise cooperate in a handover of power.

www.politico.com

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The transition was already calamitous the other way around, and they even tried purges in certain Departments before Trump even took office.

This was the DoE during the transition, with Pyle, Trump's toady in charge of the transition there :

The Trump administration had no clearer idea what she did with her day than her mother. And yet, according to Sherwood-Randall, they were certain they didn't need to hear anything she had to say before they took over her job. Pyle eventually sent over a list of seventy-four questions he wanted answers to. His list addressed some of the subjects covered in the briefing materials, but also a few not:

Can you provide a list of all Department of Energy employees or contractors who have attended any Interagency Working Group on the Social Cost of Carbon meetings?

Can you provide a list of Department employees or contractors who attended any of the Conference of the Parties (under the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change) in the last five years?

That, in a nutshell, was the spirit of the Trump enterprise. "It reminded me of McCarthyism," says Sherwood-Randall.

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(From The Fifth Risk: Undoing Democracy)

So yeah, the other way is gonna be messy. Never mind the sheer amount of failing systems and administrations they'll find when they take over.

 

[WereSalamander]

I'm more worried about the election itself, with what's been happening in Portland and other cities.

If the election goes through and Trump loses, he has no power to contest the inevitability. Especially not without the military at his side.

 

[Musubi]

He's going to try to cause as much damage as he possibly can before leaving If he loses.

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Honestly, THAT is what I'm most worried about.

 

[maximumzero]

I fully expect armed thugs (both funded by a Trump sycophant and those acting on their own) showing up at polling places attempting to threaten those that dare vote against dear leader.

 

[ClickyCal']

As hilarious as it would be to see him literally physically be forced out, it won't happen. They will just leave in the middle of the night.

 

[Harbinger00]

Also: rather than just wringing their hands I hope that people in a position to do something about have a plan if Trump does try to rig things. No more just letting him get away with shit scot free.

 

[bevishead]

There is plenty to worry about. First, he won't ever admit losing the popular vote. He's just incapable of it. And his screams about rigged elections might push a number of Qanon and cultist fanatics to acts of violence. Second, just wait until you hear about this admin sabotaging the new administration. It will take years for the new one to be up and running at Obama's era level of competence.

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I'm sure there will be negative effects of this election regardless. I was more commenting that Trump won't likely be able to stay in office if he loses just off crying election fraud without sound evidence.

 

[III-V]

The US has many 'gentleman's agreements' pertaining to the president's behavior and authority that this guy has really no regard for and has trampled all over. This election will be no different.

 

[andrew]

The DHS is already ready and willing to serve as his military/police arm. That is abundantly clear.

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Exactly. If he weren't a stupid lazy dumbass soyboy coward actively succumbing to neurosyphilis before our eyes, he could absolutely lead a coup.

You're not wrong, you shouldn't brush this aside because this is a very abnormal presidency. But the current fact of the matter is that he doesn't actually have that actual muscle behind him willing to follow orders. If he had the whole of military leadership behind him on this then absolutely, there's the muscle and that's more reason to be even more concerned. But a federal police force is not the military, which Biden becomes the commander in chief of in January in this hypothetical.

Be vigilant for the possibilities but articles like this one are just fear mongering for clicks.

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the military as a whole isn't behind him, but I wouldn't characterize them as against him either. Coups get messy and chaotic fast, look at any coup in history. If he hypothetically leveraged the fed police and DHS into an alliance with other military branches and divisions...look, there are ways for it to happen. I don't think they will because again, 900-year-old sack of shit puddingbrained fancylads like him don't have the verve to do something like that.

 

[Vector]

How is it a constitutional crisis when the Constitution lays out rather plainly that the winner of the electoral college is the legitimate next president?

Trump will get escorted out by Capitol Police if he spends a second longer in that office.

 

[subrock]

I'm honestly excited for the Oxford Vaccine Rollout / Trump Defeat global party week. It's gonna be dope

 

[Deleted member 24052]

You should read what happened in previous disputed elections. The Constitution doesn't spell out how disputes should be resolved. For instance, in the Hayes/Tilden election, the Democratic House sided with one candidate and the Republican Senate sided with the other. Who was right? Tilden eventually stepped aside, but experts think we might have had a second Civil War if he didn't (this was a decade after the first war ended). And Gore ultimately stepped aside in 2000. What would have happened if he continued to fight? If half the country through he was the rightful president? The Constitution doesn't have an answer for that.

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I was quite alive for the 2000 election and do remember the situation there. This was a disputed election regarding number of votes and how close it came.

Hypothetically speaking Biden blows Trump out in November, and there's no real room for error where something like recount could sway anything. Then say the Electoral College votes Biden in from there, and the election is called for Biden. Biden has just legally won the election, completely disregarding whether or not Trump concedes. His concession is a symbol, it's not required legally and is essentially worthless.

From there, if Trump refuses to leave the White House in January 1 of 2 things could happen: 1) the military backs Trump, refusing Biden's administration's orders, and we have a real problem (and probably war) on our hands. 2) the military backs Biden, who is now their commander in chief, and no amount of federal police will stop them from removing him from office (in this scenario I find it more likely that Trump backs down the second the military makes clear they will remove him).

Far more likely is Trump doesn't concede in November but still leaves in January, grumbling all the way to twitter and his base bitches for another 4 years until 2024.

Exactly. If he weren't a stupid lazy dumbass soyboy coward actively succumbing to neurosyphilis before our eyes, he could absolutely lead a coup.

the military as a whole isn't behind him, but I wouldn't characterize them as against him either. Coups get messy and chaotic fast, look at any coup in history. If he hypothetically leveraged the fed police and DHS into an alliance with other military branches and divisions...look, there are ways for it to happen. I don't think they will because again, 900-year-old sack of shit puddingbrained fancylads like him don't have the verve to do something like that.

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I'm not saying there aren't ways for it to happen, but I think we are leagues away from it happening.

 

[Teh_Lurv]

I am not worried about Trump remaining as acting president January 22nd if he loses - I AM worried about what his ravenous fan base will actually do if he spends the entirety of his lame duck period going about how it was rigged and and not subtly hinting at what his supporters should do about it.

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While I'm not too concerned about the MAGA base taking up arms and storming federal buildings if Trump should lose, I do worry what the members of his base with a tenuous grasp on reality will do to themselves or their immediate family. If the members of his base who are fully immersed in conspiracy theories are told that if Trump loses the election the world will come to an end, and Trump does lose the election come November, I worry a few of them will decide to harm themselves or their family because of it.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

The electors are chosen by the party that won that particular state's electoral votes. I think the risk of a bunch of D electors going rogue to vote for Trump is low.

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Clinton did suffer the worst of faithless electors, to be fair. Although some claim it was to encourage GOP people to do so.

 

[Infcabbage]

The DHS is already ready and willing to serve as his military/police arm. That is abundantly clear.

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Not to mention all the local police who are not-so-subtley pro-trump and actively help out and coordinate with proud boys.

 

[RocketKiss]

People stormed federal buildings over masks...

 

[S-Wind]

Part of me is concerned about how it'll play out.

Part of me thinks that Trump will secretly be relieved that he can go and play golf lots more, and not have to deal with criticism constantly.

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I don't think so.

I believe Trump realizes that being president is the only thing keeping him out of prison

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

I'm pretty sure Trump will try to smash on Biden's inauguration numbers, despite how social distancing will be needed.

 

[Cantaim]

Over 200 years of a peaceful succession of power from one president to the next. And republicans are about to combo break it to hell and back.

 

[Greigor the FellHand]

im not worried.

whiny bitch trump will whine and whine, but go away. cause thats all he is. a whiner.

 

[808s & Villainy]

If he tells his supporters it is a coup and to surround the White House to defend him what happens next?

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Then he has his supporters surrounding the White House. A President doesn't need to physically be there for his decisions to have authority

 

[III-V]

Not to mention all the local police who are not-so-subtley pro-trump and actively help out and coordinate with proud boys.

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Local police, DHS, Boogaloo Boys, Proud Boys, and to a lesser extent the Q-Anon family are all well-armed militia that have already demonstrated willingness to kill other Americans.

 

[Tobor]

Should we be worried? YES.

Do I think this will be a shitshow? YES.

Do I think that ultimately, if he loses, he will leave office? YES.

 

[Witness]

This should make people feel more comfortable

"The 2020 election will be the most secure election we've ever had," said David Becker, founder of the nonpartisan Center for Election Innovation and Research. "More paper ballots, more audits, more secure databases, and more information-sharing between election authorities."
More than 90% of Americans will vote on paper ballots this year, a record high achieved in large part by reforms in battleground states like Pennsylvania and Georgia. If something nefarious happens, election authorities can go back to the original ballots and tally the correct results.

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[Sho_Nuff82]

Check your registration status all the way up to your deadline. Vote in person if possible. It's the only way to *reduce* the fuckery that will be tens of thousands of discarded ballots this fall.

 

[Feep]

This is some dumb fan fiction. Sure, could this happen... yes... but it's an obscene long shot and would require a set of conditions to even have it happen. I think it's pretty low for Newsweek to publish this crap.

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Here are the key elements that need to occur:

1) The election is kind of close, but Biden wins. Certainly possible.
2) Trump disputes the election. Fucking, duh.
3) He evokes emergency powers to"investigate foreign influence". There is no particular reason why he couldn't do this.
4) Four Republican controlled swing states refuse to ratify election results.
5) The Supreme Court doesn't really get involved, and just says the EC must occur on December 14th.
6) The election gets kicked down to Congress, where there are 26 Republican delegations, 23 Democratic, and 1 tie. Republicans carry it.

None of this is "obscene". The biggest thing (steps 4, and 6) is seeing if all Republicans will truly and absolutely slide their own country into undeniable fascism, but frankly, I've seen nothing in these four years to indicate that they'll suddenly grow a conscience.

I still view it as a low probability, but I think it's definitely in the realm of possibility.

 

[captive]

the only thing that worries me is trump actually winning the election

He will do everything short of leaving of his own free will.

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some of you need to look up how narcists work. If he loses he will leave of his own free will. He doesnt want photos of him being drug from the white house. No, he'll leave acting like he was the best president ever and just america was ungrateful and or it was totally rigged against him.

 

[Tawpgun]

I'd like to think the "militia" like people are such a "vocal minority" but still a minority so they won't take it seriously.

There's no chance the military sides with Trump with all the generals and such that have been fairly opposed to him. They are such sticklers for the rules and order that Mattis and others resigned because they felt they could not follow his orders. But if he is voted out, they will kick him out on inauguration day.

Is there a chance some lone wolf could try an attack on Biden if he wins? Maybe.

 

[Doggg]

I'd be worried about him getting his followers all riled up.

 

[brochiller]

Lot of you are in here saying he has to abide by the law, and that there's nothing he can do to illegally remain in office after a loss.

Have you missed the past four years? He doesn't obey the law. The constitution doesn't mean shit to him or his administration.

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There is little in the Constitution as unambiguous as the automatic transfer of power from the President to the President-elect.

"The terms of the President and Vice President shall end at noon on the 20th day of January... and the terms of their successors shall then begin."

He could fight it, but from what I've seen in the Supreme Court this year he would not have their support.

 

[Feep]

Is there a chance some lone wolf could try an attack on Biden if he wins? Maybe.

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Then the vice president-elect will take office.

 

[The Climaxan]

Anything is possible with Trump, so the worry will be present until he's officially off the job. I fully expect him to bitch and moan and threaten if he loses, but with Biden having the military connections he does, I just don't see a Trump tantrum having any teeth and the GOP rats will be too busy tripping over each other trying to save themselves minus Trump acolytes like Gaetz and Cotton.

 

[Gigglepoo]

Hypothetically speaking Biden blows Trump out in November, and there's no real room for error where something like recount could sway anything. Then say the Electoral College votes Biden in from there, and the election is called for Biden. Biden has just legally won the election, completely disregarding whether or not Trump concedes. His concession is a symbol, it's not required legally and is essentially worthless.

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I agree. I've only been posting about disputed elections. I think things will go (relatively) smoothly if Biden wins in a blow out. It's any other scenario that's scary.

 

[Deleted member 24052]

Then he has his supporters surrounding the White House. A President doesn't need to physically be there for his decisions to have authority

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Yep, bingo.

I agree. I've only been posting about disputed elections. I think things will go (relatively) smoothly if Biden wins in a blow out. It's any other scenario that's scary.

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Sure, and that's fair. If the election in November comes very close we are definitely in murkier territory.

 

[Orange Piccolo]

Part of me is concerned about how it'll play out.

Part of me thinks that Trump will secretly be relieved that he can go and play golf lots more, and not have to deal with criticism constantly.

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You can play golf in prison?

 

[El-Suave]

As a foreigner I'm not worried about Trump not leaving. It's the irreversible "scorched earth" orders he's going to sign in the two months of the transition I'd be worried about.