[CNBC] Apple issues new rules for App Store that will impact streaming game services from Google and Microsoft

[Fiddle]

MS can't do that though. Apple said the devs have to. So for every game on Xcloud each and every dev needs a dev account and submit the app/game themselves. Right now Xcloud has IAP disabled outside of Samsung devices. Money on it that Apple tries to make it so they have to turn IAP back on, they get their cut but MS doesn't.

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Devs can do that easily. Being an Apple developer isn't hard. MS could just create a tutorial for the smaller developers who might need help. The "apps" are just streaming wrappers anyway. There would be a bit of setup and organization for all the XCloud games at first but its the easy part of these new rules.

Apple hasn't forced any other developer to turn on IAP back on (like Netflix), don't see why it would be different here. IAP will just probably not be available.

But this is assuming MS does actually think this is worth it, which they might not.

 

[BlastProcessing]

Sorry, but what is IAP?

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"In App Purchase"

 

[nekkid]

How is it a stunt? Apple being Apple they just as easily could have left things as they were.

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People, rightly, gave them shit for blocking it when they allow Netflix. This is an attempt to gain some goodwill, but the reality is it's bullshit.

 

[RevolutionizeTheGame]

So if everyone complied with Apple we'd get something like this on the App Store:

NBA 2K21 for xCloud
NBA 2K21 for Stadia
NBA 2K21 for PS Now
NBA 2K21 for GeForce Now
NBA 2K21 (for iOS)
...

They just want to get headlines without actually changing a thing until they're ready to launch they're own cloud gaming service.

 

[GuEiMiRrIRoW]

In app purchase, microtransaction etc

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So make everything more expensive with apple. And market it that way. Everything at apple costs double. If people start whinning, just say... use other store on other phone or blame apple because of monopoly.

 

[Cyclonesweep]

Different things are different things.

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Fundamentally they are the same. They are media being streamed from a remote source with content being approved and rated by said streaming provider. One is allowed full stop, the other needs a bunch of hoops. There is no way to spend money in the xcloud app either.

This is Apple wanting to make a shit ton of money off of something before it gets off the ground.


Netflix got allowed because they would be shooting themselves in the foot rejecting an already very popular streaming service.

 

[Darryl M R]

Sounds like movement in the right direction

 

[Cyclonesweep]

So make everything more expensive with apple. And market it that way. Everything at apple costs double. If people start whinning, just say... use other store on other phone or blame apple because of monopoly.

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Microsoft just made it easy and turned off all in game purchases thru Xcloud. I think that pissed apple off.

 

[The Third Heat]

Still dumb. Feels like they're just doubling down on what they've already said would need to happen for those services to be approved on iOS. Nothing new, just re-stated.

But really, I have no desire to play games, even with a controller, on my phone. So eh. Sucks for those who do, however.

 

[Pargon]

It sounds a bit strange initially, but doesn't seem unreasonable after thinking about it a bit more.
It's being set up like this so that Apple can treat these "cloud games" equally to games which are running locally on the device - so that they can moderate the content as with any other software being sold on their platform, and ensure that any subscriptions or DLC content purchased on-device goes through their payment systems.
Sure, it's probably a bit of a headache for Microsoft right now when they can't put out a single XCloud app that launches you into a library of games to choose from, but I'm sure they can figure out how to automate the process or have developers do it themselves. Hopefully with branding guidelines to minimize confusion.

So if everyone complied with Apple we'd get something like this on the App Store:

NBA 2K21 for xCloud
NBA 2K21 for Stadia
NBA 2K21 for PS Now
NBA 2K21 for GeForce Now
NBA 2K21 (for iOS)
...

They just want to get headlines without actually changing a thing until they're ready to launch they're own cloud gaming service.

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The real problem is that you can't just buy a game once and play it anywhere.

 

[GuEiMiRrIRoW]

So if everyone complied with Apple we'd get something like this on the App Store:

NBA 2K21 for xCloud
NBA 2K21 for Stadia
NBA 2K21 for PS Now
NBA 2K21 for GeForce Now
NBA 2K21 (for iOS)
...

They just want to get headlines without actually changing a thing until they're ready to launch they're own cloud gaming service.

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That's exactly what I believe they are doing. They never let spotify install download music on apple watch. That's such a bad and anticonsumer mover.

 

[BlastProcessing]

So if everyone complied with Apple we'd get something like this on the App Store:

NBA 2K21 for xCloud
NBA 2K21 for Stadia
NBA 2K21 for PS Now
NBA 2K21 for GeForce Now
NBA 2K21 (for iOS)
...

They just want to get headlines without actually changing a thing until they're ready to launch they're own cloud gaming service.

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Sounds like 5 more hit games for the ever growing iOS ecosystem, baby!

It's no skin off Apple's back if the number of games on iOS gets inflated.

 

[TechnicPuppet]

Microsoft just made it easy and turned off all in game purchases thru Xcloud. I think that pissed apple off.

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Most of the Apple defenders here haven't even acknowledged this.

 

[Carn]

so, a singular xcloud app that is your interface for all games is not ok, but 'individual launchers' for every game = ok?

 

[Cyclonesweep]

Most of the Apple defenders here haven't even acknowledged this.

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Cause it shuts down their narrative.

 

[Fiddle]

So make everything more expensive with apple. And market it that way. Everything at apple costs double. If people start whinning, just say... use other store on other phone or blame apple because of monopoly.

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You can't do that. This is what Epic tried with Fortnite. Alluding to or showing other prices on other platforms is not allowed on the App Store. I actually think you can't have different (higher) prices on the App Store either.

Most of the Apple defenders here haven't even acknowledged this.

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Acknolowdged what? XCloud disabling IAP.. on iOS? The platform it isn't available on? Netflix also doesn't allow you to sign up thought iOS. You have to use a web browser.

 

[bsigg]

Sounds like movement in the right direction

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Does it though?

Games have to be submitted individually meaning the developers of each game have to become an Apple dev
Games are forced to include IAP even if the game doesn't currently have any
Apple takes 30% of all IAP
Apple takes 30% of individual game sales
If they subscribe to a sub on iOS, then Apple gets 30%

 

[Heynongman!]

Most of the Apple defenders here haven't even acknowledged this.

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They've literally ignored every mention of it. It's beyond infuriating.

 

[chubigans]

It sounds much less tenable even than that. Each game will require an app specifically so Apple can evaluate that game to ensure it's meeting Apple's rules -- ie, 30% fees on in-game transactions. In other words, each app for xCloud and Stadia will need to be custom to that game and maintained individually. xCloud very likely couldn't provide that kind of support, especially considering the kind of legal liability involved. And how many developers will be willing to support unique iOS apps just to be supported on xCloud or Stadia?

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ah jeez, what the heck is Apple thinking?

 

[Cyclonesweep]

You can't do that. This is what Epic tried with Fortnite. Alluding to or showing other prices on other platforms is not allowed on the App Store. I actually think you can't have different (higher) prices on the App Store either.

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If you aren't allowed different prices that's absolutely bullshit. I could see not advertising in app cheaper prices elsewhere but blanket not allowing cheaper prices elsewhere is so damn wrong

 

[PlayBee]

So you have to individually download the games that you're not downloading

 

[PapaJustify]

People, rightly, gave them shit for blocking it when they allow Netflix. This is an attempt to gain some goodwill, but the reality is it's bullshit.

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The Solution could certainly be even better. But going from absolutely no game streaming to game streaming allowed is no bullshit.

 

[BlastProcessing]

Fundamentally they are the same. They are media being streamed from a remote source with content being approved and rated by said streaming provider. One is allowed full stop, the other needs a bunch of hoops. There is no way to spend money in the xcloud app either.

This is Apple wanting to make a shit ton of money off of something before it gets off the ground.


Netflix got allowed because they would be shooting themselves in the foot rejecting an already very popular streaming service.

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When Netflix was allowed on iOS, it was far from a popular streaming service. And yes, Apple wants to make money, you have cracked the code on that one. They are a 2 trillion dollar company that somehow needs to constantly find new sources of revenue growth to keep Wall Street happy. They are not our friend.

They are in an argument with 2 other trillion dollar companies who would also like to make money.

 

[RadzPrower]

They would be checked individually. The benefits to Apple would be flexibility in how they dealt with any issues. Things being more siloed gives them options and leverage.

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Again, how is this helpful from a security perspective?

The only true part of this statement is about leverage and it's not even remotely about leverage in terms of security or content.

 

[NameUser]

So if everyone complied with Apple we'd get something like this on the App Store:

NBA 2K21 for xCloud
NBA 2K21 for Stadia
NBA 2K21 for PS Now
NBA 2K21 for GeForce Now
NBA 2K21 (for iOS)
...

They just want to get headlines without actually changing a thing until they're ready to launch they're own cloud gaming service.

Click to shrink...

Yup that would be a total mess. Apple doesn't want this to happen. They just want to pretend like they're trying. At most we'll get a few titles like Halo Infinite. No way every title is coming. Especially since smaller developers would have to go through Apple in addition to Microsoft. Where the benefit in that?

Microsoft should just push Xcloud hard on Android. Partner with Samsung more and start giving it away for free or making gaming phones. Apple is a lost cause.

 

[ScubaSteve693]

Does it though?

Games have to be submitted individually meaning the developers of each game have to become an Apple dev
Games are forced to include IAP even if the game doesn't currently have any
Apple takes 30% of all IAP in addition to the purchase of the game if a person doesn't access it from a subscription
If they subscribe to a sub on iOS, then Apple gets 30%

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Exactly, this is Apple being the greedy Apple people have grown to love and defend. Exactly as your post states, this is Apple forcing themselves into the application so they can get 30% of all IAP. Scummy business practice which is exactly what Epic was trying to fight.

 

[GuEiMiRrIRoW]

You can't do that. This is what Epic tried with Fortnite. Alluding to or showing other prices on other platforms is not allowed on the App Store. I actually think you can't have different (higher) prices on the App Store either.

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Why not? Are you sure? For example: final fantasy is 10 bucks on ps4, but 30 on switch.
Thats nintendo taxes. You can't do that on Apple? Ehat the fuck !

if it's true, tim swney is actually right in that other topic.

 

[bsigg]

So you have to individually download the games that you're not downloading

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Yes, so it would essentially mean every game would be forced to include it's own streaming launcher app.

 

[Cyclonesweep]

When Netflix was allowed on iOS, it was far from a popular streaming service. And yes, Apple wants to make money, you have cracked the code on that one. They are a 2 trillion dollar company that somehow needs to constantly find new sources of revenue growth to keep Wall Street happy. They are not our friend.

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So how is Xcloud with no ability to spend money in the app, at all, fundamentally different than Spotify or Netflix

 

[RowdyReverb]

It's a start. It is very clear that they aren't going to allow game streaming without a cut of the revenue. I would pay a few bucks extra to satisfy the Apple tax if I could use these services on the devices I own though

 

[Fiddle]

Why not? Are you sure? For example: final fantasy is 10 bucks on ps4, but 30 on switch.
Thats nintendo taxes. You can't do that on Apple? Ehat the fuck !

if it's true, tim swney is actually right in that other topic.

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I am pretty sure its true but not 100% as I think it is done on a couple apps I have seen. I think this is why Netflix eventually just straight up removed signing up from iOS. They could make the prices higher, so they just ditched it entirely. But again I am not 100% sure as this seems to be inconsistent in some areas.

 

[supercommodore]

The apple defence force really is something.

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Some overlap with those boasting about their stock gains in the Apple market cap thread.

They've literally ignored every mention of it. It's beyond infuriating.

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What do you expect from people who have a favourite corporation.

 

[bxsonic]

I honestly think they'll probably sort this shit out soon. Lol. This is just Apple being Apple. If streaming truly is the future, Apple can't afford to block these services forever.

 

[rajinus]

I think there's some merit to the analogy. xCloud is just streaming local inputs up to a remotely running binary, and streaming video output from that binary back to the device. Letting Apple take a 30% chunk of any transactions is silly; the binary which executes the transactions and makes changes based upon the transactions is running in Microsoft's data centers and just streaming the video down to the user's phone. From the perspective of the local iPhone app there's no interesting state changes, it's still just streaming inputs up and video down.

I honestly don't see the difference between this and Apple wanting a 30% take on any transactions executed through a web browser.

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The difference is that it's in the appstore. That's the difference, and that will always be the difference. You can't start differentiating apps in this way, it will never end and then there will never be clear rules. The appstore has guidelines, safari does not.

Then why is Netflix allowed? Or Spotify?
Why don't I have to download every movie or song seperately so apple can approve it?

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Because those are movie and music streaming apps, which we've established are different concepts. You might be of the opinion that they should be treated the same, but thats not really relevant, because they're not the same, and I think the differences are relevant. Both of those are passive experiences, and both of those can actually function in a browser. And there are no IAPs offered in movies or songs, as far as I know.

 

[Foltzie]

As a user I don't like this.

As a parent, eh. I am ambivalent.

As an Apple shareholder, I don't mind them asking for an IAP cut.

 

[mugurumakensei]

So how is Xcloud with no ability to spend money in the app, at all, fundamentally different than Spotify or Netflix

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cause MS is denying Apple revenue by not allowing IAP and not sharing the revenue for the IAP they're not allowing.

Because those are movie and music streaming apps, which we've established are different concepts. You might be of the opinion that they should be treated the same, but thats not really relevant, because they're not the same, and I think the differences are relevant. Both of those are passive experiences, and both of those can actually function in a browser. And there are no IAPs offered in movies or songs, as far as I know.

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Amazing how you skipped past the part where MS disabled IAP in xCloud

 

[Heynongman!]

And there are no IAPs offered in movies or songs, as far as I know.

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There are no in app purchases in Xcloud.

Also, game streaming can function in a browser. Stadia is browser based.

So just because I can make the pixels run around, they should be treated completely differently? Fuck that.

 

[Cronogear]

So make everything more expensive with apple. And market it that way. Everything at apple costs double. If people start whinning, just say... use other store on other phone or blame apple because of monopoly.

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Developers used to do this. Spotify, for example, charged $12.99 a month in the app and $9.99 on their website, so they could make the same amount of money per membership despite Apple's 30% cut.

Apple eventually banned this practice though, because it encouraged customers to avoid the App Store to get a cheaper price.

 

[Fiddle]

Something extra I thought of is this is actually forcing other devs to behave exactly how Apple Arcade does, that also has separate apps in the App Store for each game available in it, and it just brings up the Apple Arcade sign up screen when you click Play. So this is atleast consistent with what Apple are also doing in a way.

 

[Darryl M R]

Does it though?

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Yes, because regardless of its clunkiness this shows that Apple acknowledges that their consumers want to stream games rather than pretending that this is something its consumer does not care about.

 

[disparate]

These seem exactly like the issue originally? Nothing's really changed.

 

[BlastProcessing]

Again, how is this helpful from a security perspective?

The only true part of this statement is about leverage and it's not even remotely about leverage in terms of security or content.

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Leverage is leverage. Companies use leverage to solve problems, whatever they may be.

So how is Xcloud with no ability to spend money in the app, at all, fundamentally different than Spotify or Netflix

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Because people think of music, video, and applications in very different ways and they have different use cases and capabilities. Xcloud is interactive, for one. Right now it is a service for games, but what is to stop Microsoft from adding Office to Cloud, or Windows, or the Windows store? Server based games are a whole can of worms that are quite different from music and video. If it wasn't fundamentally different, then it would have become a thing at the same that streaming music and video took off in the first place.

 

[LumberPanda]

A huge percentage of the appstore's 1.7 million apps compete in SOME way to Apple's own services. So no, historically and factually speaking, that argument doesn't hold water nor has merit. This is more about not allowing these streaming game services from billion dollar companies to be exempt from ALL the rules that other apps are required to follow, and to operate with their own special privileges.

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The rules are arbitrary and purposely restrictive to give Apple control over all developers/customers as they see fit. You can make purchases without Apple Tax in some apps, you can't in others. Amazon doesn't directly compete with Apple services, so you can make purchases without the Apple Tax. Netflix, Spotify, Band Camp, Steam Link, XCloud, Stadia, etc. compete with Apple services, so you can't.

The rules are there to hinder developers from providing better services than Apple Arcade, Apple Music, Apple TV, etc.

 

[ryan299]

This is stupid. I don't believe they do this for movies. Gaming has a rating board like movies and this shouldn't be necessary.

 

[GuEiMiRrIRoW]

Developers used to do this. Spotify, for example, charged $12.99 a month in the app and $9.99 on their website, so they could make the same amount of money per membership despite Apple's 30% cut.

Apple eventually banned this practice though, because it encouraged customers to avoid the App Store to get a cheaper price.

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Isn't it monopoly? Why the government let them
Do that? So Sony can do that eventually and everyone will have to swallow because that's legal? Crazy.... I wonder when Microsoft will do that with windows.

 

[Cyclonesweep]

Some overlap with those boasting about their stock gains in the Apple market cap thread.



What do you expect from people who have a favourite corporation.

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The difference is that it's in the appstore. That's the difference, and that will always be the difference. You can't start differentiating apps in this way, it will never end and then there will never be clear rules. The appstore has guidelines, safari does not.



Because those are movie and music streaming apps, which we've established are different concepts. You might be of the opinion that they should be treated the same, but thats not really relevant, because they're not the same, and I think the differences are relevant. Both of those are passive experiences, and both of those can actually function in a browser. And there are no IAPs offered in movies or songs, as far as I know.

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To your first point here.
You can download Chrome or Firefox in the Appstore. You can go spend money on a web browser. Apple sees none of it. Xcloud is on the app store. You download it and do things within it where apple doesn't see or have anything to do with the data trasmit between the app and the servers after the app has been downloaded. It's a moot point cause Xcloud had IAP DISABLED. Outside of Samsung devices cause they worked out a deal.

To your second point, the difference hasn't at all been established, especially with IAP and mtx disabled in Xcloud for mobile devices (outside Samsung). There is no difference. If you have to download a seperate app for every game to be streamed that the game needs to be reviewed by Apple separately, than every tv show and movie should have to do the same as there is NO DIFFERENCE at that point. You have failed to show why it's different in any way, outside of potential mtx which is disabled.

 

[ScubaSteve693]

Yes, because regardless of its clunkiness this shows that Apple acknowledges that their consumers want to stream games rather than pretending that this is something its consumer does not care about.

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They are only acknowledging this because they found a loophole that will allow them to make more money off of the companies putting games on their devices, along with more money from the consumers. It is corporate greed and regardless of whether they see it being a benefit for their consumers, it is all a money play at the end of the day and a scummy one at that.

 

[Deleted member 9330]

It's a start. It is very clear that they aren't going to allow game streaming without a cut of the revenue. I would pay a few bucks extra to satisfy the Apple tax if I could use these services on the devices I own though

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But they don't deserve a cut of the revenue, they're not doing anything here. They're not making the games or hosting them.

And before you come at me with "but they provide the platform" don't even bother, I don't buy that shit. Microsoft can make an xCloud app for Mac and not pay Apple a single penny despite Apple "providing a platform" and that has been stable ground for software development for decades. Apple getting a cut solely because they made the thing is not compelling, sorry.

 

[bsigg]

Yes, because regardless of its clunkiness this shows that Apple acknowledges that their consumers want to stream games rather than pretending that this is something its consumer does not care about.

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If that was truly the case, they wouldn't be raising these barriers even higher for these platforms to come onto iOS.

 

[RadzPrower]

Leverage is leverage. Companies use leverage to solve problems, whatever they may be.

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It's not really leverage though. It's a complicated way of saying NO.