It is their IP and they have every right to protect it. That goes for anyone, any company who owns the rights of something they have created. Period.
The something was Samus Returns. They released it. There was never a situation where there was a nothing. Nintendo doesn't owe the AM2R developer anything.AM2R is better than SR in pretty much every way. Nintendo could've saved themselves a pretty penny if they had contacted the AM2R guy before starting on SR. Or include that version with SR, or just hire the guy, I dunno. Something is better than nothing.
Well that worked out for people that wanted to play AM2R yeah?Which they could have killed a good year before it released when Mercury Steam started working on it as well.
they only killed the project after AM2R was finished.
I am sick and tired of Nintendo trying to appeal to families, but when I became a teenager and wanted to make my own Mario fan game, I got refused.
AM2R doesn't even begin to work on platform Nintendo is selling.AM2R is better than SR in pretty much every way. Nintendo could've saved themselves a pretty penny if they had contacted the AM2R guy before starting on SR. Or include that version with SR, or just hire the guy, I dunno. Something is better than nothing.
That's kind of the thing. While it's good for fans that Sega is largely hands off with fan projects, it is almost certainly less out of any altruism towards the fan base and more just them not giving a shit because they have been historically awful at managing their own stuff.
If they want to play it, it's on the internet.Well that worked out for people that wanted to play AM2R yeah?
I'm pretty sure AM2R was being developed way before SR was even being considered.
I'm sure they could've make it work somehow.
I am aware of that. It doesn't at all go against my point that they just don't care as much about their stuff, which is good for fan projects in the long run.Not true, actually. Sega has been pretty explicit in the past that they give the a-OK to all Sonic fan projects.
If Sega cared about how their IP were handled they would NEVER have allowed the comics with Archie to be done the way they did.I am aware of that. It doesn't at all go against my point that they just don't care as much about their stuff, which is good for fan projects in the long run.
If they want to play it, it's on the internet.
the alternative being that Nintendo killed the project before and no one gets to play it at all.
That's another thing, a C&D after a project is finished is more of a gesture than a "this game no longer exists anywhere" type deal. It's like "we're the rights holder and this is what we should do, but ya'll know you can still find the game somewhere if you care"
And better yet, the people who made the C&D projects can STILL take credit for the hard work they did.That's another thing, a C&D after a project is finished is more of a gesture than a "this game no longer exists anywhere" type deal. It's like "we're the rights holder and this is what we should do, but ya'll know you can still find the game somewhere if you care"
What kind of argument is this? Nintendo is releasing the sequel to the game where they let you make all the Mario levels you wanted with a toolkit they developed.
I'm sure you're super knowledgeable about internal Nintendo planning.
Try to release a Harry Potter movie without WB's consent and see how far you can go.nintendo doesn't get to participate in participatory fan culture if they don't let fans participate in participatory fan culture. fuck them.
"protecting their ip's" is corporate PR talk for "i think companies should have total control over how people use and think about their IPs" it's absolute total nonsense when you consider that once you release a product in the world, you don't have control over it anymore. It is now a cultural object to be reinterpreted by all parties.
How would these same people feel if say, Warner Brothers decided that fans could no longer write Harry Potter fanfiction because the fanfics might take away from book sales. Oh wait, they did try that way, way back and people freaked out and rallied against the decision.
It's not a bad example because even though they released within a year of each other we've known about AM2R for almost 10 years prior to that with a public playable demo as early as 2011.I think you picked a pretty bad example. AM2R released in August 2016 and the development of Metroid: Samus Returns began somewhere in 2015 and was released in September of 2017.
Just one year apart, and even then at release the official remake could not escape comparisons to the fan-remake (another reason to not allow those games).
So Nintendo could have strook a deal with the developers of AM2R to release it offically, but AM2R wasn't ready at the time Metroid: Samus Returns already begun it's development and a release close to the official remake would confuse consumers and seem like actual competition, you want to avoid.
That's not what people were doing though. You're just changing the argument. A fan-game rendered in 2D for PCs is much different than a 3DS title or a title released for profit on consoles and Steam. And just because WB would send a C&D over a fan film does not mean they are right to do so. It's fucked up and shows how little companies value their consumers. We're cash cows to them.Try to release a Harry Potter movie without WB's consent and see how far you can go.
That's the thing though, they didn't kill the project before release.That's not what people were doing though. You're just changing the argument. A fan-game rendered in 2D for PCs is much different than a 3DS title or a title released for profit on consoles and Steam.
Everyone in this thread should read Convergence Culture by Henry Jenkins before they post in this thread.
Here is literally the entire book. For free. Check out the chapter "Why Heather Can Write"
TPCi actually forbid fans from selling plushies of current gen pokemon.I wonder if people would get as defensive over this if Nintendo started C&Ding fanart. It's basically the same principle, anyway. Would be a hell of a thread seeing Era members (the majority of which use fanart as their avatar) bending over backwards to defend Nintendo.
TPCi actually forbid fans from selling plushies of current gen pokemon.
Anything before is fair game.
Also you don't want to touch anything Disney if you're in that business.
You literally don't understand what you're arguing against. Go read the one chapter I cited from the 250 page book I provided for free.That's the thing though, they didn't kill the project before release.
It exists, they just acted in a way so that the fan project wouldn't negatively impact their prospect.
It's a strategic move similar to releasing SMB3 on Virtual console in sync with NSMB2 for example.
The fan game still exists and is out there.
You or I is not entitled to play it for free or however.
If the AM2R author was serious in making sure that his project wouldn't get C&Ds he could have removed all traces of Nintendo's IP.
Indie do that and sell their games for a profit even.
That's how we got Axiom Verge and co.
AM2R isn't going anywhere and the guy who made it can still boast credit on his work, that's the important part.
e: nice Gish Gallop for an argument though.
"Go read a 400pages of a book to contribute to the argument"
Yyyyyyyeah....
You'll have to explain to me how it benefited the release of Samus Returns though.You literally don't understand what you're arguing against. Go read the one chapter I cited from the 250 page book I provided for free.
Fan projects have not and have never negatively impacted the existence of a product produced by the IP owner. That is nonsense. If done well, as AM2R was, it only helps awareness of the IP.
You can make them, you can gift them, you can't sell them.That's pretty shitty. I've seen some kickass Scorbunny plushies floating around the internet already.
You can make them, you can gift them, you can't sell them.
TPCi is literally trying to sell them to you right about now as part of their marketing push for GenVIII.
Could be better but it beats Disney and their blanket bans.
I don't know, it gives better exposure to older gens.Yeah, you know the situation is being handled poorly when people are finishing sentences with "at least it's not as bad as Disney".
You'll get very capitalistic and pro-corporate takes about this on gaming side, OP. Generally the console audience here is very hostile towards emulation, preservation, fan games, abandonware, homebrew, public domain etc. People don't really care about whether it is moral, only whether it is legal. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Q: If people would just seek permission instead of making fan games without permission, it wouldn't incur Nintendo's wrath!
A: I don't think this would work, sadly. I thought this was the case until I asked Nintendo if I could make a fan game and they refused me.
...
I am sick and tired of Nintendo trying to appeal to families, but when I became a teenager and wanted to make my own Mario fan game, I got refused.
They released Mario Odyssey DLC, which is another reason why they shouldn't allow fan DLC. It's confusing, and could misrepresent their product in a myriad of ways.So where's the Mario Odyssey DLC to compete with the fan DLC that's been made?
You don't get to dictate how Nintendo releases their own games. The entitlement in this sentence is real.Where is an accessible way to play some of Nintendo's classic library (I do not consider Switch Online to be accessible for multiple reasons)?
It's called Super Smash Bros. You may have heard of it.
Again, Nintendo not releasing a game in the timeframe or manner in which you like doesn't invalidate their property rights. This is a nonsense argument.Where are localization of decade+ old games that many have already translated for free?
It can be confused for their own product, it could compete with their own product, it could harm their brand, and ignoring them could result in having less credibility when they wish to assert their rights later.What is the point of killing all of these projects that wouldn't even exist if there wasn't some kind of demand for them? Sure you could argue that some of those only got big because they were free, but we've seen how successful Nintendo's old library has been when they've made old titles available for sale and that people are willing to pay for DLC for popular games
Put it like that it feels like the Bob Game guy who felt like he was entitled a publishing contract for some reasonSo people keep bringing the latter bit up without really examining what you actually said.
P-Tux7, when you say "I got refused", you're not actually talking about a C&D for a game you were making, right? Am I correct in thinking you were like 14 and you emailed Nintendo going "I want to make you a Mario game in Flash, please?", and they responded "Don't."?
Cause I'm not really sure what you expected to be told. There's a difference between not going after fan games, and telling any random kid who asks that it's totally ok to do it.
I don't know, it gives better exposure to older gens.
And with around 900 different designs it's not like there's no choice for anyone wanting to make pokemon plushies for money.
Again if you don't want to make money out of it, you're free to do so even with the latest designs.
Once again, you're changing the argument. It doesn't have to benefit the release of Samus Returns, it can do that but it is not required. What is important, and what corporations use as their excuse against fangames is that it could somehow take away from the sales and/or image of their IP. And if you can find proof that AM2R's existence took away from Samus Returns' sales numbers, I'd like to see that. As it stands, I think Samus Returns received more coverage than it would have had AM2R not existed because tons of gaming websites ran articles comparing the two games, boosting awareness of MercurySteam's game, boosting awareness of AM2R, and boosting awareness of Metroid in general. Because AM2R provided another text for the Metroid series, it means that the brand got more screentime on gaming websites. How much did Federation Force do for the series, comparatively?You'll have to explain to me how it benefited the release of Samus Returns though.
I'd like to see that argument.
And if you're trying to push that argument, you kind of have to defend it rather than just be vague about it or I'm gonna point to some piece of the Bible and let you find where the correct passage.
People care, but they realize that after a certain point legality matters. The moment you want to go beyond shouting red faced into the ether.... the laws of the land matter. The same people I see losing their shit over this stuff, I rarely see in any of the threads discussing the primaries and choosing of our political leaders that actually are in a position to influence the laws that govern these things.
People want to link 50 different websites and fan projects and give me every reason in the world why the law should either be changed or doesn't matter but are nowhere to be found when it comes to the actual methods necessary to actually enact change. Whether you like it or not; what they are allowed to legally do here trumps how you feel about it. And if you don't like that, you are welcome to do something about it... Literally all of us are.
Q: SEGA and Capcom are just as bad about fan games, why are you only angry at Nintendo?
A: SEGA and Capcom have only sent cease and desists to one fan game each, SEGA for the Streets of Rage Remake for unknown reasons, and Capcom to Rockmen R because that fan game was getting SOLD. While I am hurt by SEGA's legal response to SoR Remake, they are still so much better than Nintendo. I can name at least 5 free fan projects that Nintendo shut down, and meanwhile that is the only one on SEGA's rap sheet. It's sad, but Nintendo is still much more villainous.
.
They released Mario Odyssey DLC, which is another reason why they shouldn't allow fan DLC. It's confusing, and could misrepresent their product in a myriad of ways.
You don't get to dictate how Nintendo releases their own games. The entitlement in this sentence is real.
It's called Super Smash Bros. You may have heard of it.
Again, Nintendo not releasing a game in the timeframe or manner in which you like doesn't invalidate their property rights. This is a nonsense argument.
It can be confused for their own product, it could compete with their own product, it could harm their brand, and ignoring them could result in having less credibility when they wish to assert their rights later.
If Sega cared about how their IP were handled they would NEVER have allowed the comics with Archie to be done the way they did.
Yes, if the law of the land was the only thing that mattered, we wouldn't have had Sonic Mania. We wouldn't have had Street Fighter X Mega Man. Both are fan games that the companies decided to promote instead of shutting down. So there's clearly some discussion to be had. If you're gonna give me that "facts not feelings" ben shapiro bullshit at least don't ignore facts.
It's their property and they can do whatever they want. Agree or disagree with the utility of sending out cease and desists, there is a methodology to what they are doing and it's perfectly legal for them to exercise their rights to protect whats theirs.
It is their IP and they have every right to protect it. That goes for anyone, any company who owns the rights of something they have created. Period.
Im not ignoring the facts. Looks like you cant get those kind of projects from Nintendo unless they allow you to. They have decades of history indicating that unless its made legal, they won't be doing so. Its not bullshit just because you don't want to hear it, its the truth. Just because Sega is doing it doesn't mean Nintendo ever will unless their hand is forced. A good way to do that would be adding a little reason and common sense to the laws surrounding these things. Im not surprised you responded with such anger though. For whatever reason this completely reasonable and attainable goal of taking part in the political process to have influence on the laws we find unfair always seems to draw ire from people in these discussions. As if its too much work to do anything other that throw a few keystrokes at a forum said billion dollar companies don't care about. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ indeed.