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Clark Gregg says that Agents of Shield is still canon to the Marvel Cinematic Universe
- Thread starter The Artisan
- Start date
User Banned (2 Weeks): Trolling; Prior Bans for Trolling
I'll make your words mine. Keep fighting the factually incorrect fight!
Or when we were theorycrafting how the show would address the snap when the new season started and it just glossed over the whole thing. :(
the movie characters showing up in the show didn't clue you in?
I really need a better origin story. Older man with digestive issues isn't going to get me on any superhero teams.
Well that really wouldn't prove it by itself, but since we were talking about Daredevil in that post you quoted please tell me which movie characters showed up in Daredevil.
i dont see how it wasnt cannon anyway when when fury has shown up in the show along with maria hill and lady sif, hell coulson is the one who was in charge of builing the helicarriers that saved everyone in age of ultron.
none, thought you were still talking about agents of shield
also the way some of y'all think about "canon" doesn't square with how any of this has ever worked in large shared universes
like, for example, the marvel comics universe
there are any number of stories that canonically occur inside the marvel comics universe that don't get mentioned in bigger events or other comics because they aren't relevant
the idea that nothing is canon to a fictional universe unless its events and characters are constantly referenced by the other stories in that universe is, quite simply, not how any of this has ever worked
If there's a show that doesn't feed characters back into the movies, it's not non-canon just for that reason
This. Never watched a second of the show and never saw any discussion about the movies having a single drop of reference or callback or anything to AoS or any of the netflix shows. It's been this way for years and always will be, until the D+ shows started where Fiege straight up said you need to watch them to follow along properly.
Why do you guys get so bent out of shape over which timeline the events transpired in?
I'll never understand the Marvel Television fans' obsession with this. Some if the events of AoS are super messy in the continuity of the timeline most of the current MCU films were set in. Retconning the show to a different universe avoids the issue and allows any of the characters to return at any time (even the dead ones).
AoS will always be canon to me, just like the Netflix shows.
Anyone who dislike the shows can ignore them and people who love the shows can include them as canon if they want, especially now the multiverse is officially MCU canon.
Anyone who dislike the shows can ignore them and people who love the shows can include them as canon if they want, especially now the multiverse is officially MCU canon.
It's referenced a ton. Hell, they just recreated one of the scenes from IH for What If…
If you look even a bit beyond the surface of the plots of later Shield seasons and try to connect the dots to the MCU, there will be too many contradictions in worldbuilding for it to fit neatly into main canon. There's only two ways for the show to still be canon:
1- Multiverse. It's another timeline with a lot of similarities but diverging events.
2- Retcons. As much as I hate it, the MCU is no stranger to retconning a bunch of crap that isn't convenient anymore for new storylines. Hey remember the Mandarin being fake? Remember Tony Stark dealing with Ross for the Abomination? Remember the Bifrost being destroyed after Thor 1?
It should be simple enough to just retcon any plotpoints or characters from the series that don't fit with what the movies establish or that the writers just don't like.
1- Multiverse. It's another timeline with a lot of similarities but diverging events.
2- Retcons. As much as I hate it, the MCU is no stranger to retconning a bunch of crap that isn't convenient anymore for new storylines. Hey remember the Mandarin being fake? Remember Tony Stark dealing with Ross for the Abomination? Remember the Bifrost being destroyed after Thor 1?
It should be simple enough to just retcon any plotpoints or characters from the series that don't fit with what the movies establish or that the writers just don't like.
actually at the start of Marvel TV, Feige said it was canon. It is on the internet if you look. This was a few years ago though.
It's referenced now. But back in the day, it was very obvious that Marvel Studios was purposefully avoiding direct references to it after Mark Ruffalo was cast for the original Avengers. Bruce was the only character to "survive" that film and references were kept fairly vague. It wasn't until eight years after The Incredible Hulk when they decided to bring back Ross.
But even with her father being brought back, I don't believe the character of Betty Ross has been mentioned in a single Avengers movie, even when it would have made sense like in the first Avengers or Endgame. Finally, with the announcement of She-Hulk and release of Shang-Chi 11 years after The Incredible Hulk released, we're getting an actual direct follow-up to the events of that movie.
References to The Incredible Hulk, outside of bringing back Ross eight years later, is a fairly recent addition to the MCU.
So comparing Charlie Cox returning as Daredevil to how Incredible Hulk was handled is actually is very apt and the most obvious way for Marvel Studios to go about it. Bring back Charlie Cox for a very small role in a film, playing the same character he played on the Netflix series but without any direct references to that series as to not overwhelm audiences (and because it would simply be unnecessary for a small role in Spider-Man). And if they decide to do more with that world, they can bring back characters like Foggy down the line, much like they brought back General Ross.
The worse part is that the hellicarrier in Age of Ultron is this nothing reveal that nobody was really surprised by. It was the plot equivalent of the scene where the airplane falls beneath the clouds and for a second the movie pretends it crashed only for it to soar a moment later.
In Agents of Shield, it was this huge tease of a secret "Delta Protocol" for multiple episodes, like "omg, what is delta protocol, what is this secret weapon Coulson has in his sleeve"... then it shows up as a helicarrier blueprint in a screen and next episode doesn't even follow up on it because of the movie. It really sucked seeing the show trying so hard to connect with whatever loose thread the movies left out of the plate.
I really hate that they don't just somehow integrate some of these shows into the MCU proper. I'm sure the logistics might have been tough to work out, but I always saw the Netflix Shows (and to an extent, SHIELD) as tackling more or localized threats and having a more intimate connection with the slice of the world(s) those series engaged in. It was nice having the big blockbuster movies to carry the story while also believing the smaller scale series were there to help expand certain details and introduce new heroes that there may not be plans to center a large budget film around.
Agents of SHIELD
- The series literally follows Coulson after his "fate" in an MCU feature film
- Friggin Maria Hill and Nick Fury all up in this piece!
- All of Season 1 was basically a partner piece to the events of Winter Soldier
- One episode showed a Judas bullet being used (explained a bit more under Netflix Shows)
- Pretty sure they actually name dropped Thanos as an impending threat in one of the later seasons
Netflix Shows
- Most, if not all reference the Chitauri Invasion/Battle of New York (not sure about Iron Fist, I'm pretty sure the others do however)
- The main hook of the second half of Luke Cage season 1 is the creation of weaponry (Judas Bullet) based on Chitauri salvage. (how is this any different than Vulture and his goons doing pretty much the same thing in Spiderman Homecoming?) Also, linked to HAMMER Industries.
Agents of SHIELD
- The series literally follows Coulson after his "fate" in an MCU feature film
- Friggin Maria Hill and Nick Fury all up in this piece!
- All of Season 1 was basically a partner piece to the events of Winter Soldier
- One episode showed a Judas bullet being used (explained a bit more under Netflix Shows)
- Pretty sure they actually name dropped Thanos as an impending threat in one of the later seasons
Netflix Shows
- Most, if not all reference the Chitauri Invasion/Battle of New York (not sure about Iron Fist, I'm pretty sure the others do however)
- The main hook of the second half of Luke Cage season 1 is the creation of weaponry (Judas Bullet) based on Chitauri salvage. (how is this any different than Vulture and his goons doing pretty much the same thing in Spiderman Homecoming?) Also, linked to HAMMER Industries.
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But there is no need to handwave it. What is wrong with just incorporating a certain amount from these tv shows into the main narrative? They don't have to bring in all the characters or bring in all the elements, just piece by piece the most important parts. ABC MCU has Quake and Ghost Rider, and Netflix MCU has several superheroes.
What the hell? The article you posted did absolutely nothing to detract from what you bolded in my post. If anything it confirms what I said. That article was posted last year, seven years after the launch of this show.
If I understand it correctly, the character Fitz transports himself to another timeline, from what they call the MAIN timeline. Sounds like something pulled off in Endgame and it further proves that the main setting of AoS is meant to be the main MCU. Nothing in that article suggests that the main setting of AoS is an alternate universe separate from the one seen in the movies.
THANK YOU
I have read all of your posts in this thread, you are doing God's work
Because within the MCU (FRANCHISE), there has been and always will be one main MCU (UNIVERSE). This universe within this franchise is where 99% of the IPs' stories take place, whether in the form of movies or tv shows. The only IPs I can think of that predominantly take place in an alternate universe are Loki and What If, the latter of which the whole premise is about alternate universes.
I would even say that for the past 11 years, part of what made the MCU's storytelling so appealing is that each of the IPs share a common, singular history and continuity. The multiverse was teased in 2016 with Dr. Strange but wasn't first seen on screen until Endgame in 2019, and even then it wasn't really the main focus although it was a big part of the plot.
And even now 11 years later, the latest installments that are also new IP (Shang Chi, Eternals) are still being established as part of the MAIN MCU. As an audience member I would be more engaged if the Netflix MCU and ABC MCU IPs were part of the same continuity, just like all the other IPs are.
These IPs were always meant to be in the main continuity. From 2015 onward when watching the show, that's the mindset that the audience had when sitting down to watch them. To say they are from an alternate reality just opens more cans of worms that are best avoided. If the Netflix MCU is a separate MCU, then does Matt Murdock & the Defenders not exist in the main MCU?
And if they do exist in the main MCU, are the Netflix MCU all variants? And if they are all variants, do all of the storylines from the Netflix MCU matter less since the main MCU's character arcs could be something slightly or completely different?
Fuck all of that shit. The Netflix MCU already has a built-in fanbase, and those characters and their arcs deserve just as much connection to the main MCU as all of the rest of the IPs. Making them involved only through a multiverse make it seem like their previous live action stories weren't important enough - but we (the fans of Daredevil) always and still believe the stories are as important.
Does that answer your question in bolded? I ask that sincerely because this is really important to me and you calling it an obsession makes me feel like I am less of a real fan for wanting more incorporation between Netflix/ABC MCU and the main one.
BOO GUNN
YAY GREGG
HATERS GO SCREW
DAISY JOHNSON GONNA QUAKE Y'ALL DISBELIEVERS
#itsallconnected #Fitzsimmons
YAY GREGG
HATERS GO SCREW
DAISY JOHNSON GONNA QUAKE Y'ALL DISBELIEVERS
#itsallconnected #Fitzsimmons
Yeah - based on these I'm not sure how it can be claimed AOS is not cannon. Doesn't make sense.
Fighting the good fight!
Seriously though, I fully understand that Marvel Studios might make these shows non-canon. It's possible.
But to try and argue that they were never part of the MCU is flatly false. The Netflix shows and Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. were all quite literally announced to take place in the MCU. The Russo brothers are on record saying that they considered the Netflix characters for Infinity War/Endgame at one point but thought they were already biting off too much to properly fit them in. It's factually wrong to say they never were, even if you believe they'll be made non-canon eventually.
But if Charlie Cox appears as Daredevil, that throws a big fat wrench in the whole "no longer canon" argument. Because Marvel Studios isn't going to directly reference the plot from the Netflix shows if he has a simply cameo in Spider-Man but they're also not going to say, "This is a different Daredevil than the other one he played."
It's convoluted and pointless.
I see it like the old Star Wars EU. The movies are canon to the shows, but the shows aren't to the movies.
I don't agree, that if Charlie Cox appears, it makes the Netflix show canon. I think it'll be a different variant who can have similarities to the old one. I just don't see them wanting to be held back creatively with the stories that happened in these shows.
There's also Mahershala Ali playing Cottonmouth and now Blade.
I don't agree, that if Charlie Cox appears, it makes the Netflix show canon. I think it'll be a different variant who can have similarities to the old one. I just don't see them wanting to be held back creatively with the stories that happened in these shows.
There's also Mahershala Ali playing Cottonmouth and now Blade.
The issue is that regardless of what some audience members thought, the storylines from the TV shows never made sense in the context of the "prime" universe (I dislike this term because it seems to dimishes the events of other universes, but I'm not sure how else to word it). Shit like the existence of thousands of inhumans running rampant on the Earth would have absolutely come into play during the drafting of the Sokovia Accords. Inhumans would've been like... the prime reason for the Sokovia Accords. That they've never even been mentioned in the movies is a huge issue. The fact that agents of SHIELD took down inhuman gods on other planets with no involvement from any of the various gods in the movies is a huge issue. Hive was a bigger threat than Thanos ffs. That's not even getting into the Infinity War situation. The TV show shit never actually worked in the context of the movie universe. What makes it MESSY is trying to reconcile all that and just tell audiences "don't think about it too hard, just turn your brain off." Fuck all that, frankly.
You need to get used to the idea of other universes mattering just as much as the one the previous movies took place in. The multiverse is going to be a major part of the MCU (franchise) going forward, and the cleanest way to explain all the continuity inconsistencies with the Marvel Television shows is to say they took place in a different, yet similar, universe to ours. That doesn't diminish the events of those stories. Those are still the characters you love and their universe is similar enough. Splitting it off just makes the overall continuity cleaner. As you said, "part of what made the MCU's storytelling so appealing is that each of the IPs share a common, singular history and continuity." That is exactly why the TV shows don't fit in. They don't fit into the continuity. Now with shows like Ms. Marvel on the horizon, inhumans are going to need to be involved and it would be ridiculous to all of the sudden now start referencing the events of the TV shows when they were wholly ignored up until now.
We're entering a new era when characters from literally any other franchise can be introduced through the multiverse and actually be prime players in the MCU (franchise) going forward. Casual audiences are being slowly conditioned to accept this through Loki and What If, and soon Spider Man 3 and Strange 2. It would be incredibly easy to just explain the Netflix/ABC shows in the same fashion. This also gives Feige the ability to bring in the beloved characters from those series and ignore the crap. I'd still like to see a proper Inhuman royal family in the MCU Fantastic Four films, for example. I'd love to see Iron Fist done right.
I wouldn't say you are "less of a fan" or anything, but I do have trouble understanding how you can say you enjoyed the franchise largely due to its unprecedented adherence to a singular continuity and then want to include a bunch of stuff that fucks with that continuity. In that respect I would suggest that you don't actually care about continuity all that much. That doesn't make you less of a fan, but it certainly makes you a different type of fan than me.
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I mean, every timeline will refer to themselves as the "main timeline", yes? And, given that Thanos is only mentioned once in AoS, and the blip doesn't occur, is it not reasonable to suggest that a way to make AoS "canon" (for a given level of canon) is for Marvel to treat it as a multiverse reality which was main until a certain point?
I mean, it's definitely didn't occurr in the main MCU timeline, that much has been obvious for a long time, lol.
Yup this is it. Multiverse makes all of these messy inconsistent elements of the shows fit into the MCU main timeline of existence cleanly without any editing or ignoring of characters. Any other way you try and cut it makes no sense when you start to dial down into the details of the shows and the movie. AoS wanted to branch out and do their own crazy thing with cool Marvel shit they had permission to get into - the right call for that show honestly, now they don't need to try and hype up whole seasons when the big move at the end is erasing Fury's search history or whatever.
They went big and weird and cool with their stories which helped the show be good but also created a larger gulf between the movies and themselves. EXCEPT! for now that the multiverse is a real in MCU proper it's all canon. It all works and nothing contradicts. I'm not sure why there would be any pushback on it. I actually feel like it potentially makes AoS and the netflix shows more legit now that there is this clear avenue for them to integarate into everything else nicely. Before Loki I just kind of considered them an un-official what if...? kind of situations.
Exactly. Before this I considered the MT shows to be "EU" level at best. Now they can all be canon and real. The multiverse fully legitimizes them.
I was always meh on the show itself, but man that theme slaps.
Bear McCreary absolutely kills it throughout the series with his score.
I'd like to think that was on a variant timeline that was pruned.
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The only way it would make sense to me from a storytelling perspective to make the shows not canon, is if they retcon them as literally never even happening, if that makes sense. And you're right, all of the MCU television shows were announced to be within the MCU. Besides James Gunn, there is no other authoritative person saying otherwise. From what I can tell now, it is only other fans commenting and saying they aren't canon and that observation just comes from the lack of connections.
I disagree with this on so many levels. Firstly, when you say "what some audience members thought," you're immediately dismissing those audience members' desires and downplaying what those fanbases want to see. And I don't think that's fair. Those IPs were promised to being part of the bigger picture and that was part of what kept the fan base invested. It is absolutely no different than other superhero IPs introduced via films in later MCU phases that were also connected to the ongoing saga.
In this new era you speak of where literally any other franchise can be introduced through the multiverse - my point and response to you is that the multiverse concept overall may be the theme of this new era, but the IPs are still part of the MAIN universe. Shang CHI takes place in the main MCU, and so will Eternals. They aren't established as being part of a different universe in the MCU's multiverse. With your logic, the studio certainly could have done that, so why didn't they?
They have their reasons for it, and for THOSE reasons, I want the ABC and Netflix MCU to be part of the main MCU too. Introducing them through a multiverse just adds a whole layer of multiverse conversations for these characters to have before knowing each other but it is FAR more consistent for them to all have the same history and continuity. It isn't necessary to introduce them via multiverse, and relying on that all the time does not make for good storytelling.
The multiverse should be there for adding universes that are completely different, not parallel. Like the Tobey Maguire Spider-Man movies or the Fox X-Men movies, if they ever decide to revisit that. But definitely not Daredevil or Agent Carter.
No. As I said, 99% of these IPs all already take place in the same consistent continuity. So whenever any of these IPs refer to the main timeline, they're referring to the same exact timeline every time. And that definitely is the case again in the comicbook article with the AoS dialogue referring to the main timeline.
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Yup. Sometimes I think comic writers invented the multiverse just to shut up the comic nerds constantly whining about canon.
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I would say that the comics have nothing to do with this, but that's technically not true. If the studio decides to reintroduce all these characters via multiverse I think that'd be a terrible mistake but it is what is at that point
you're right, things retconning each other doesn't mean anything anymore