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Chris Roberts on Star Citizen Development - "I am not willing to compromise it's potential because it is taking longer than I originally envisioned."
- Thread starter Deleted member 18944
- Start date
I cracked up at STAR SYSTEMS - 1 (89 planned).I'm not sure how accurate this is, but it's interesting for sure.
Actually interstellar travel will be possible by the time they roll that 89th star system out.
Chris Roberts is eventually going to be removed this project, just like what happened with Freelancer. He simply cannot manage a major project to completion.
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Especially after at the very LEAST 8 years of development and funding.
This is the end all be all statement here. I don't like people handwaving the criticism anymore. At this point its earned. I could cut you some slack back in year 3, 4, 5 and maybe even 6. But we are approaching year 9 now. Its not irrational at all to want TANGIBLE DATES.
Period.
The Alpha is 2 years late, the game according to CR was almost fully complete in 2016 lol
I kind of admire his drive to make this the game he's always dreamed of. You chase those dreams buddy, doesn't hurt me.
I also don't necessarily know how I feel about all the money raised for this game. People believe in it and want it to be awesome, and they're willing to back that with dollars. Is this a case of a fool and his money? Maybe, maybe even probably, but it's not my money.
I want this to come out and be real and be good. I want Squadron 42 to be good. But until it's a product in a store (digital or brick and mortar) I'm not giving a dime to this. It may very well be one of my dream games when all is said and done, and I'll be happy to support it I'd it ever gets to be done. In the meantime, I'll watch with passing interest and leave it at that.
I also don't necessarily know how I feel about all the money raised for this game. People believe in it and want it to be awesome, and they're willing to back that with dollars. Is this a case of a fool and his money? Maybe, maybe even probably, but it's not my money.
I want this to come out and be real and be good. I want Squadron 42 to be good. But until it's a product in a store (digital or brick and mortar) I'm not giving a dime to this. It may very well be one of my dream games when all is said and done, and I'll be happy to support it I'd it ever gets to be done. In the meantime, I'll watch with passing interest and leave it at that.
I am sure many other developers also wished that they had players (!) finance their games to the tune of 250M+. Having worked on both the developer and publisher side, I can firmly say that I would hate working on such a project. Having some limitations and a need to finish things (as opposed to redoing them over and over again) can be quite beneficial for a project.
It's still a low number of employees working on it, the NMS dev team could be half what it says there now, as they have a new secret 'big' project they're working on now, as well as The Last Campfire. I don't think there's any chance of them overtaking the Elite Dangerous budget.
The whole company is currently 26 people, according to this article
Hello Games’ Sean Murray on the studio’s next No Man’s Sky-sized game
The studio just released The Last Campfire
www.polygon.com
No need for false dichotomies when The Man Himself provided so much material to parse through today:
- Chris responding to a "feature X is missing four years after it was demoed" complaint by hyping unreleased features Y, Z, A, B, C, D, E, F & G:
- Chris making sweeping statements shortly after decrying sweeping statements: "The same push and pull exists in the community as there is a strong desire for polished bug free gameplay now but also new features and content, often from the very same people".
- Chris apparently believing that the new roadmap will solve everything, somehow
- Endless "trust the process" rephrasings
- "I can't promise you exactly what quarter it will come together but once the new Road Map web work is done you'll be able to see the teams progress to achieving what I describe in real time." In other words, you'll stop getting angry over the game not having a release date once we roll out the new roadmap. Which also has no release date.
PS:
Any creation of art is riddled with compromises. Refusing to accept that and chasing a dream is why this will likely never see the light of day, and even if it does, will end up a massive disappointment.
Since I'm not interested in Star Citizen as a product I want to play, it's been quite interesting to see the ever more complex tech demo they are building.
Since I'm not interested in Star Citizen as a product I want to play, it's been quite interesting to see the ever more complex tech demo they are building.
I don't think it's a scam, I think it's incompetent management caused by that man's ego which he confuses with vision. But it's not a scam as I think he actually believes what he's saying.
Mocking people who spent money on this is wrong, though. Really wrong. I do think continued support of this game at this point does deserve some skepticism. Sadly, this may easily turn to attacks on customers, which is really bad. Criticize the company, not the customers.
Keep in mind you're only playing Freelancer right now because Chris Roberts was removed from development.
They might still be making that otherwise.
Heh, can't argue with that (even though I don't know the details), but irrespectively of Chris' involvement back then, I much prefer those single-player experiences even if they feel limited/archaic in design by today's standards. (but funnily enough are still hard to copy/better)
Even though I'm not a backer, I hope they someday reach the finish line and I'll be there to cheer/buy their product. (Squadron 42 better be good Chris)
I'm not gonna shit on the backers, they were sold a long series of big promise laden pressers and with Squadron 42 a star studded cast to attract more attention. It's hard not to think Roberts has mismanaged the hell out of this thing though. With that level of funding they've had to work with how can you not doubt his ability to steer the project competently this many years into development.
Like I understand some of the underlying tech needs to mature for them to implement it like the recent procedural gen planet stuff, but I feel like there should still have been plenty more gameplay systems, random missions like Elite implemented by now. I'm very impressed with what they've done with the sense of scale yet don't think its unreasonable to have expected more actual game out of it by now. Maybe focus on that for a mo and put the everything and the kitchen sink tech wishlist stuff on the backburner.
All that said I would love for this to be in a more robust state with VR integration implemented, criticisms aside I'll dive in as soon as its closer to reaching the overall vision that was there from day one.
Like I understand some of the underlying tech needs to mature for them to implement it like the recent procedural gen planet stuff, but I feel like there should still have been plenty more gameplay systems, random missions like Elite implemented by now. I'm very impressed with what they've done with the sense of scale yet don't think its unreasonable to have expected more actual game out of it by now. Maybe focus on that for a mo and put the everything and the kitchen sink tech wishlist stuff on the backburner.
All that said I would love for this to be in a more robust state with VR integration implemented, criticisms aside I'll dive in as soon as its closer to reaching the overall vision that was there from day one.
I think that's the main problem with the development. They keep going back and redoing or updating gameplay systems and assets. Every time they do that they break something or they reintroduce old bugs. I originally paid the 60 bucks a while ago because I wanted Squadron 42, but what they have for multiplayer is actually kind of fun sometimes. What is not fun is it doesn't ever really feel like it's coming together towards a finished product. For the last 3 or 4 years now, I only hop into the game once every six months or so just to see how things are going. And while they've added new content the actual gameplay doesn't feel like it's any more polished or fixed than it was a few years ago. I think that's largely because they keep going back and redoing things and never fixing the persistent problems and bugs.
their Squadron 42 trailer featuring Gary Oldman is already underwhelming nowadays
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After reading that wall of text David Addison quoted above, my question is "how the fuck is that supposed to be FUN to play" lol.
Is there actually a fun or interesting Youtube/Twitch streamer playing this to get a better idea of the current status of the game? Not a "this is theoretically playable in 2 years, but look at the fancy ships" channel, but an actual current let's play or something that's worth a watch?
Is there actually a fun or interesting Youtube/Twitch streamer playing this to get a better idea of the current status of the game? Not a "this is theoretically playable in 2 years, but look at the fancy ships" channel, but an actual current let's play or something that's worth a watch?
The game looked amazing back in 2014 but now it really doesn't look like anything special. It'll look straight up bad compared to next-gen.
This'll be the first time that I was super impressed by a game's graphics but it took so long to release that it became outdated.
Yeah, but just wait. Roberts will demand they rebuild and update all the assets again, then add HDR and all the raytracing features to the engine.
The saddest thing about this is that Elite will ditch VR soon and there's no alternative in sight, even no completely overpriced one ;.;
I'm not defending this game, I definitely think the funding should stop... It's just that the discourse is getting really repetitive and I feel like there's nothing to be added to the conversation that hasn't already. But that's just me, I do agree that the company should be made accountable tho.
Man how the hell are they going to implement combat that complex? This is the type of feature creep revelation that should shake the resolve of even the most ardent supporter.
The true "scam" exists only in the mind of Chris Roberts. He's lying to himself that he can create the perfect Sci-Fi game, that he can add every minute detail and make it all work.
Chris Roberts made the first 90s PC game I ever really wanted a PC for, and also the first 90s PC game that I played.
I played Wing Commander, but not until after I had this game.
I played Wing Commander, but not until after I had this game.
I'll admit it, I backed the game at the Kickstarter stage for £50.00 due to fact I missed out on the Elite Kickstarter earlier. The game at the time sounded ambitious and could be a lot of fun. Since backing it I have pretty much forgotten about the game, had better things to do and other games to play. Flash-forward to the present and even I am astonished that people are still paying into the game and buying ships that may or may not exist in a game that is not even out yet or even has a significant playable portion to explore.
I do hope on some level that the game will be released, not for me but for the developers whom have spent years working on it - no one will want this game on their CV if the game never comes out or is straight up cancelled at this stage.
For now I believe that Chris just dreamt too big, the scope and scale of what Chris wants is well beyond the scope of possibility and sense. However the whales keep feeding the dream and we are still here...
I do hope on some level that the game will be released, not for me but for the developers whom have spent years working on it - no one will want this game on their CV if the game never comes out or is straight up cancelled at this stage.
For now I believe that Chris just dreamt too big, the scope and scale of what Chris wants is well beyond the scope of possibility and sense. However the whales keep feeding the dream and we are still here...
This honestly sounds like a child's dream game they are so going to make when theyre older rather than an actual lead's vision.
The only thing that may give people some hope is I haven't seen evidence of his team going rogue and complaining about how bad of a job Chris has done. You'd think by now if this was really going south and there was no hope of a top game coming out of it some of these people working there would be leaking a whole bunch of gripes. Maybe they have and I never heard it but with a project this big it would be inevitable if things were going real bad in certain areas of the company. Most people don't want to be tied to the same project for a decade unless they believe in it. Maybe right now due to the pandemic it is nice to have that steady job but I still think we would have seen a bunch of cracks in the facade if some of these employees were unhappy there.
I do feel bad for original and early backers, but that's always the risk with backing anything like that and it comes with the idea of backing. I've had my fair share of backed project lead to vaporware/delayed games/promises not delivered on, it is what it is and you should always expect it as a possibility.
However if people are backing now, good for them. There's playable stuff and presumably its being updated at whatever pace its being updated. If people are fine with that and enjoying what's been put out and still backing... cool! Some of the stuff ive seen looks pretty fun and if it ever becomes a fully realized product im definitey interested in the idea of it.
I'm not sure why people get so interested in what other people spend their money on, plenty of people spend tons of money for far less (otherwise the f2p model wouldnt exactly be practically default for many games out there today, IMO).
However if people are backing now, good for them. There's playable stuff and presumably its being updated at whatever pace its being updated. If people are fine with that and enjoying what's been put out and still backing... cool! Some of the stuff ive seen looks pretty fun and if it ever becomes a fully realized product im definitey interested in the idea of it.
I'm not sure why people get so interested in what other people spend their money on, plenty of people spend tons of money for far less (otherwise the f2p model wouldnt exactly be practically default for many games out there today, IMO).
Bullshit.
CR can't handwave the management problem just because they tried to achieve "perfection". That is why they have to set deadlines. This is not just for their customers but for their teams working on project as well. This help the team have a goal to achieve. Limitations has to be set. If a team can't move on to the next task due to constant iteration, this impacts the team's morale (also trust from other teams if they keep underdelivering).
They say the roadmap would fix their "issues" or whatever it is. But it took them until now after multiple delays to realize this problem. It just so happens that the roadmap of the roadmap came out after being pressured.
Will not take 10 or 20 years...sure Jan. I guess 30 is a solid number.
CR can't handwave the management problem just because they tried to achieve "perfection". That is why they have to set deadlines. This is not just for their customers but for their teams working on project as well. This help the team have a goal to achieve. Limitations has to be set. If a team can't move on to the next task due to constant iteration, this impacts the team's morale (also trust from other teams if they keep underdelivering).
They say the roadmap would fix their "issues" or whatever it is. But it took them until now after multiple delays to realize this problem. It just so happens that the roadmap of the roadmap came out after being pressured.
Will not take 10 or 20 years...sure Jan. I guess 30 is a solid number.
That response from Chris was a giant wall of text that said a whole lot of nothing. Not what I'd call a reassuring response in the slightest and no I'm not dropping words like "scam" or shitting on the whales but this is the type of talk you here from people who are being forced to give an answer they either don't have or REALLY do not want to give.
I'm also of the belief that by the time we actually see some kind of concrete finalized release of either SC or S42 they're going to be incredibly outdated in so many areas because of how piece meal and drawn out development has been. I imagine the cut scenes for S42 for example are going to look dated as fuck even compared to games that have already released like RDR2 and TLOU2... unless they redo them completely well after the fact to make up for this which is entirely possible given how this games development has gone.
I'm also of the belief that by the time we actually see some kind of concrete finalized release of either SC or S42 they're going to be incredibly outdated in so many areas because of how piece meal and drawn out development has been. I imagine the cut scenes for S42 for example are going to look dated as fuck even compared to games that have already released like RDR2 and TLOU2... unless they redo them completely well after the fact to make up for this which is entirely possible given how this games development has gone.
I don't know, funding is constantly coming in. There is no publisher pressure at all. Your boss literally doesn't care how long it takes or how much it costs cause they can quickly design or redesign a new ship and bring in millions in funding with little effort. Almost sounds like a dream job. Yeah there is no sense of accomplishment maybe but zero pressure getting to design and program no matter how long it takes? That's the easy life
The talk about shitting on backers and whales.
The backers backed a game they thought would be great. The early whales did too.
The current whales who drop mad cash every jpeg sale? They are a part of the problem. As long as they can constantly bring in funding with little issue there is zero rush to finish anything, no haste no pressure. Running out of cash? Ship sale! As long as that funding well doesn't run out CR will keep being CR and just shoot for the furthest start in the universe and keep remaking things until it's "perfect". Zero pressure, zero responsibility.
The backers backed a game they thought would be great. The early whales did too.
The current whales who drop mad cash every jpeg sale? They are a part of the problem. As long as they can constantly bring in funding with little issue there is zero rush to finish anything, no haste no pressure. Running out of cash? Ship sale! As long as that funding well doesn't run out CR will keep being CR and just shoot for the furthest start in the universe and keep remaking things until it's "perfect". Zero pressure, zero responsibility.
I'm conflicted on this.
On one hand, I really appreciate that they have basically an unlimited budget to try and realize a game that would be impossible to make otherwise. They aren't forcing whales to continue to pay for ships, whales somehow appreciate the current state of the game and the direction it's heading enough to fork over their cash.
On the other hand, it also seems that without any deadlines, the developers have no real incentive to compromise. Has any game ever been successfully made that wasn't compromised?
Maybe dwarf fortress? Although that game is no where done either based on their roadmap.
I guess at the end of the day, all the drama with this game alone has given me my 40 bucks worth. I'll just check in a few times a year to see if it's worth jumping into yet.
On one hand, I really appreciate that they have basically an unlimited budget to try and realize a game that would be impossible to make otherwise. They aren't forcing whales to continue to pay for ships, whales somehow appreciate the current state of the game and the direction it's heading enough to fork over their cash.
On the other hand, it also seems that without any deadlines, the developers have no real incentive to compromise. Has any game ever been successfully made that wasn't compromised?
Maybe dwarf fortress? Although that game is no where done either based on their roadmap.
I guess at the end of the day, all the drama with this game alone has given me my 40 bucks worth. I'll just check in a few times a year to see if it's worth jumping into yet.
He just needs a few more years of making money hand over fist while waiting for the tech to catch up.
I just checked the person who he was replying to and it's so bizarre.
I even checked the posting history of the person to see if I was missing context but no, this guy Robert's responded to has been defending CIG to this day.
So just making a comment buried among his newest defense just to express a little frustration at having to do this defending just makes Robert's decision to reply to him specifically in the manner he did very odd.
Fitting response.
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If they stopped accepting more funding, how long could they realistically continue development at the current staffing levels before running out of money? They published some financials for 2018:
Cloud Imperium Financials for 2018
Following on from last year, we are publishing the Financial Year 2018 Accounting for the Cloud Imperium Group.
cloudimperiumgames.com
If I'm understanding them correctly, you could get an idea by comparing their cumulative net position of 53 MUSD at the end of the year with their "total costs, CapEx and investments" of 56 MUSD for the year. They are about equal, so if their position hasn't deteriorated since then, perhaps they could continue for a year or so? Would a year be enough to "get the game done"?
It's a scam when you sell 'ships' for thousands of dollars that do not exist and likely will never exist. No one ever claimed they weren't paying people to develop something, they just don't have any plans to actually finish the project and will continue to sell vapor until the money runs out.
A lot of people think you need to be selling literal snake oil for it to be a scam. Theranos was a scam despite it employing hundreds of people, getting tens and hundreds of millions from investors and so on. Something can be a "working business" and still be incredibly shady and underhanded in how it works.
Exactly, it's a scam when you never deliver the services/product you promised while continuing to take money for it. Hell, even MLM's produce a product, it's just shit and what they are really selling is the mentality of being a part of the group in order to fleece money out of people.
Right, the game they want to make is one where they can sell non-existent content and promises for as long as possible while putting out half-baked modules.
User warned (3-day thread-ban): hostility
How so? I haven't contributed more than my original pledge (1 ship at the very start of the kickstarter campaign).
They're still making the game. It probably will be release. Yet internet assholes still call it a "scam", and continuously insult backers.
Yes it's taking ages. Yes, I really don't give a shit about it anymore (along with most games these days). Yes, I'll still chime in every time I see a hate thread about it....but .that doesn't mean I'm "dick riding them". I mean, fuck you.