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Chinese vaccines sweep much of the world, despite concerns
- Thread starter SilentPanda
- Start date
- News
Especially considering how well China and other non-western parts of the world have been handling the pandemic.
Turkey is accused of extraditing Uighur Muslims to China in exchange for COVID-19 vaccines
Turkey expected China's Sinovac vaccine in early December, but it was weeks delayed. Some politicians suggested China was using it as leverage.
www.google.com
Absolutely.
I don't know how things will turn out, but as countries open up and expect tourism money, I doubt they'll limit their potential tourist population by vaccine producers. Blocking out the China and Russian made vaccinated population would be a large amount of people.I do think people can and do have legitimate concerns about Chinese related issues but some are quick to unveil their true intentions.
back to my more practical concern: I've already seen news where people need to show that they're vaccinated in order for entry (for example, Mecca):
Reddit - Dive into anything
www.reddit.com
I wonder how different countries would cooperate on that. Like I've taken a vaccine that's not approved in the destination country, what should I do?
We're getting Sinopharm iirc. If the US and EU aren't providing vaccines then of course people will get it elsewhere. Are companies mad that China is horning in on their market or something?
"Fancy" vs "humble" still seems kinda strangely editorializing, tho.
"Fancy" vs "humble" still seems kinda strangely editorializing, tho.
The concerns are centered around lack of transparency and Chinese vaccine development not adhering to international norms, which has led some people to feel uneasy about the safety and efficacy of the vaccine.
For instance, the Chinese began vaccinating their military before finishing phase 2 safety trials. They started getting authorization for use in other countries before finishing phase 3 efficacy trials. There have been various efficacy claims, but they have not released the data for scientific peer review.
The Russian vaccine was also approved for use before completing the normal trials, however they have subsequently released their data.
Considering Covid outbreaks started in China I'd hope they'd be ahead of everyone else on the vaccines. I'm glad they can help out other countries.
People here should have no issues with this considering Era members were defending countries like Canada hoarding 4 times the vaccines necessary for their populations while poorer countries had to wait for the left overs while their people died. China and Russia were already reaching out to other countries and India has already send their vaccine to neighboring countries - even if all their people have not been vaccinated yet. That's the spirit of globalism. The US should have at the least tried to help out their neighbors in South America. If not as charity, then for selfish reasons.
And I will say again - open up the mRNA vaccine technology and allow for temporary blocks on IPs and have it be opensource for vaccines like Astrazenaca/Oxford. These are vaccines that have published data and easy enough for poorer countries to make in their own facilities. Considering the next pandemic could be on the horizon, big corporations and western countries should stop hoarding this kind of science and technology.
And I will say again - open up the mRNA vaccine technology and allow for temporary blocks on IPs and have it be opensource for vaccines like Astrazenaca/Oxford. These are vaccines that have published data and easy enough for poorer countries to make in their own facilities. Considering the next pandemic could be on the horizon, big corporations and western countries should stop hoarding this kind of science and technology.
It's a worldwide pandemic. Getting vaccine to people is obviously more important than worrying about the political influence that will wax or wane between major powers. I dislike the CCP as much as anyone, but if the tradeoff for them saving thousands of people is that some countries develop a better impression of the CCP then that's a worthwhile trade.
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Hey look Donald trump has an era account.
Ah, i see. Hm I suppose that would raise some concerns, yes. Re: Russia, isn't "subsequently releasing their data" just as simple as them making up numbers? Or do we have reason to trust their numbers?
The 4x thing is kind of misleading as the Canada government has ordered 4x the population in vaccine to get whatever comes first and said the rest will be redirected to developing nations. I live in Canada and was initially set to receive the vaccine in September. My province has now said it may be moved up to late July as they seem to be doing a longer time between the first and second shot banking on the 90% efficacy of the first shot. We do not have our own vaccine production and the US is not keeping its commitments to us.
The shittier thing Canada did was blocking the ability to lift copyright protections that would allow vaccines to reach developing nations.
I think the major thing as I mentioned above is not blocking the ability to manufacture it elsewhere.
Sinovac released their.
And compared to the others (even other Chinese vaccine) they are willing to setup production facilities on the receiving countries.
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In theory the numbers could be doctored, and there were some scientists who have claimed they were, based on what they saw as irregularities in the data.
Ultimately it is kind of hard to prove that your numbers are real. There is a certain level of trust involved in the scientific process, because you can't expect peer review to catch intentional fraud. I think scientists generally choose to believe the Russian results in part because they are not claiming anything that is out-of-line with the data we have from other vaccines. Sputnik V, ChAdOx, and the Johnson & Johnson vaccine are all adenovirus / spike protein-based designs, and the efficacy figures they quote are in the same ballpark.
CoronaVac is more of an unknown, since it is using an inactivated virus design, for which we have no other COVID-19 vaccines to compare against. The claimed efficacy numbers are also sort of all over the place.
I think the thing is more like waiting to vaccine 100% of the population (with diminishing return in term of life saved) before starting exporting.
Understandable from the point of view of the US and EU.
But knowing that some 25 year old living in a country with decent healthcare is ahead of your vulnerable population... that will not create goodwill.
Can you provide a link to the paper? So far I have only seen claimed overall efficacy levels from different sites (which vary wildly), but not the actual data used to calculate them.
I think the concerns are lack of transperancy and the fact that we are talking about a vaccine that the CCP rushed out the door before trials were completed which is never a good idea when it comes to vaccines.
Those are the concerns and if millions are given a vaccine that later shows unintended health consequences that could have been discovered through trials then yes that's bad.
It will also give those antivaxxer lunatics credibility
Those are the concerns and if millions are given a vaccine that later shows unintended health consequences that could have been discovered through trials then yes that's bad.
It will also give those antivaxxer lunatics credibility
the us had an mRNA vaccine inlike 3 days of getting the genome in Feb. The rest of the time has been safety testing it.
it's always possible to yolo it but most countries don't like to do that with vaccines.
if you ignore safety testing it was easy to have a vaccine early. It's why getting fda approval mattered
OP
OP
only has information from the first and second phase trials of CoronaVac in China.
Safety, tolerability, and immunogenicity of an inactivated SARS-CoV-2 vaccine in healthy adults aged 18–59 years: a randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled, phase 1/2 clinical trial
Taking safety, immunogenicity, and production capacity into account, the 3 ÎĽg dose of CoronaVac is the suggested dose for efficacy assessment in future phase 3 trials.
www.thelancet.com
Covid: What do we know about China's coronavirus vaccines?
Sinovac and Sinopharm's jabs are yet to finish final trials, but are already being shipped overseas.
www.bbc.com
Brazil is currently testing it and showing like 50% efficacy. China said it was 78%
their rates are all over so no one actually knows
only has information from the first and second phase trials of CoronaVac in China.
Safety, tolerability, and immunogenicity of an inactivated SARS-CoV-2 vaccine in healthy adults aged 18–59 years: a randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled, phase 1/2 clinical trial
Taking safety, immunogenicity, and production capacity into account, the 3 ÎĽg dose of CoronaVac is the suggested dose for efficacy assessment in future phase 3 trials.www.thelancet.com
Covid: What do we know about China's coronavirus vaccines?
Sinovac and Sinopharm's jabs are yet to finish final trials, but are already being shipped overseas.www.bbc.com
I know those were released. My comments were about phase 3 efficacy data.
China not so much but CCP isn't exactly the most transparent vehicle.
Sinovac Announces Phase III Results of Its COVID-19 Vaccine | Business Wire
For the raw data not sure where you can find, but to be fair you cannot find the one for the western one as well in internet.
OP
OP
Not China itself, but it's government official.
And also having to learn to understand what is not said in public.
Taiwan doctor recounts Wuhan experience in early days of COVID-19
Taiwan doctor recounts Wuhan experience in early days of COVID-19 - Focus Taiwan
A little over a year ago, when Taiwanese infectious disease specialist Chuang Yin-ching (莊銀清) was sent to Wuhan, China, to learn more about a new coronavirus that had emerged, there were fewer than 50 reported cases of the disease now known as COVID-19.
focustaiwan.tw
Something that I think some people overlook in regards to this is that China can afford to ship out vast quantities of vaccine because by and large they managed to eradicate Covid through lockdown. Western countries, particularly the U.S (the undisputed covid capital of the world) don't have the slack in terms of positivity rates to afford to ship dosage across the world. It would be effective political suicide for the Biden administration to begin mass-shipment programs to the rest of the world when we haven't even hit herd-immunity rates for the 65+ demographic.
The CCP on the other hand, which isn't beholden to public accountability can afford to distribute vaccine not only for the aforementioned positivity rates, but also because Xi Jiping doesn't have to worry about mid term elections in a year.
How has the EU been hoarding its supply? It's been quite the opposite - people have been criticizing it for being slow with its vaccine rollout because it's producers have been allowed to sell to other countries like Canada and Israel. And the first vaccines to come to market, the mRNA ones, were expensive and require cold storage infrastructure, so they aren't really all that suitable for poorer countries. The hope was that the AZ one would allow for more global distribution, but it is of course having production problems, so nobody is getting what they ordered.
Yeah, this link is for a press release of overall efficacy data. That was what the scientific community was criticizing - that they provided press releases without making the data available for peer review.
In fairness, let me mention that Moderna was also criticized for making a press release about efficacy before releasing their data. The difference being that they released the data for peer review prior to approval and distribution.
I don't know how you can say we were hoarding vaccines when we don't have stocks in hand and we just rely on exports from countries who makes them? It's not like we have 4 times of vaccines in the country right lying around lmao
It sounds like western countries are upset that they aren't getting the props for saving the world like they hoped by hoarding every vaccine for themselves and saying eat shit to every small country. This is one of them weird propaganda articles that want you to question foreign products.
Rich countries hoarding Covid vaccines, says People's Vaccine Alliance
The issue is that countries like Canada order up all the vaccines from the companies - like 4/5 times more than what is necessary to cover all their bases and ensure that every single Canadian - even young people and children - are vaccinated, while older/at risk/health care/frontline workers in poorer developing countries have to wait a couple of years to get their turn. You don't see the unfairness of this? This is not understanding that there is a global pandemic and that the whole world has to be vaccinated at the same time - not rich countries finishing the vaccination first while poor countries struggle.
This is why China, Russia and India are stepping up and helping other countries - even though their own people have not yet been fully vaccinated. China and India have billions of people - unlike Canada's 30 million. And yet they are helping their neighboring countries and others. While the West continues to selfishly grab all available vaccines.
So yeah, the world is going to be grateful and appreciate China in this for saving lives.
People will start saying that they plan to donate the excess, but then again it's not really that those countries will eventually be able to access the vaccine, is more like when.
I suppose I'm missing the politics of this. I'm just wary of anti-Chinese sentiment I guessNot China itself, but it's government official.
And also having to learn to understand what is not said in public.
Taiwan doctor recounts Wuhan experience in early days of COVID-19
Taiwan doctor recounts Wuhan experience in early days of COVID-19 - Focus Taiwan
A little over a year ago, when Taiwanese infectious disease specialist Chuang Yin-ching (莊銀清) was sent to Wuhan, China, to learn more about a new coronavirus that had emerged, there were fewer than 50 reported cases of the disease now known as COVID-19.
It's a weird situation, because usually you see first world countries withholding stuff from third world countries, and it makes third world countries suffer.
But the US and Europe are doing worse than everyone else. Redirecting vaccines away from the US and Europe to third world countries would be completely counterintuitive, because more people are dying in the US and Europe.
But the US and Europe are doing worse than everyone else. Redirecting vaccines away from the US and Europe to third world countries would be completely counterintuitive, because more people are dying in the US and Europe.
If the Americans and company are concerned about Chinese influence in the Global South they are always welcome to release the patents for the vaccines. I dare them.
This is still a US-centric forum, and it's dumb to assume it's immune to propaganda.
I think we all understand this, and we can even argue that it makes sense that countries will prioritize their own citizens ahead of others.
What's BS here is the sentiment of the article in the OP, which shits on what China is doing with its vaccine just to feed our western superiority complex.
There's a pretty easy solution to this: waiver of patents over the vaccine. BioNTech and Moderna vaccines may or may not be out of the capabilities of manufacturers in developing countries, but Oxford and J&J ones are not, and neither are the Sinovac or Sinopharm ones.
In fact, India and South Africa proposed exactly that solution to the WTO, which was blocked (three guesses as to who did it). Pfizer, Moderna, AstraZeneca, etc may or may not be selling their vaccines at cost--we will not know for a long time, if ever. But even if they did sell at cost, it does not change the fact that monopoly over knowledge is prioritized over the global good.
This is not entirely true when looking at excess deaths. South America seems to be hit the hardest, and on Africa there is very little data but considering South Africa is one of the wordt hit countries I doubt they are doing well.
The US and EU just has better tracking for COVID and number of deaths.
GitHub - dkobak/excess-mortality: Excess mortality during COVID-19 pandemic
Excess mortality during COVID-19 pandemic. Contribute to dkobak/excess-mortality development by creating an account on GitHub.
github.com
And the situation is very different when risk groups are vaccinated but every country plans to vaccinate everyone first.
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This is not entirely true when looking at excess deaths. South America seems to be hit the hardest, and on Africa there is very little data but considering South Africa is one of the wordt hit countries I doubt they are doing well.
The US and EU just has better tracking for COVID and number of deaths.
GitHub - dkobak/excess-mortality: Excess mortality during COVID-19 pandemic
Excess mortality during COVID-19 pandemic. Contribute to dkobak/excess-mortality development by creating an account on GitHub.
And the situation is very different when risk groups are vaccinated but every country plans to vaccinate everyone first.
Plenty of people dying around the world where the healthcare infrastrutture it's not great... adding the fact they will have lower access to vaccine.
As someone who is very lucky to already been vaccinated i known that the reason of it it's because the country i live set aside a lot of money for to procurement.
Not because I'm more vulnerable of some doctor in Africa or some elderly in the Chile.
In a community so sensible for the rich/poor divide i would have expected more empathy.
I don't understand what you are saying. This is looking at the excess deaths/mortality and not the overall number of deaths.
Health care infrastructure obviously still plays s role in how they can deal with COVID. But that does not seem like a good reason to me to ignore the countries.
Sorry, I thought you were indicating the numbers were always high because of a bad health infrastructure, my bad.
Anti CCP, please don't mix that up. That sentiment will continue to persevere, no donation or attempt to increase goodwill makes up for the genocide taking place right now by their hands, or the brutal way they're operating in Hong Kong among other things.
A lot of ostensibly anti ccp sentiments here are just thinly veiled sinophobia and imperialism, that's what's been said
Third world people's China critique is almost always more sincere and it's not that hard to tell