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Testing

Member
Oct 10, 2020
10
Why are they making it so much hotter than the suns core? Seems like a waste and just complicates it.
The higher temperature is a substitue for the much higher pressures in the Sun's core. For fusion you need atoms to bump into each other with enough energy. One way of making this more likely is to increase the temperature. The other way is to put more stuff in the reactor and increase the pressure. Both make it harder to contain the plasmas which are reacting so you need a balance.
 

djplaeskool

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,726
Time to go to work
tumblr_mloy3i0KtV1r2t4t6o1_500.gif

[Adagio in D Minor intensifies]

two pages of memes and not one image of an actual device. shame. they call this wild looking thing a stellarator (wendelstein 7-x), i guess it is similar to a tokamak in that it confines plasma, but what do i know.
eikBLMX.jpg

IIRC I used to have a desktop background of a stellarator experiment, 'cause it looked like an all-metal MC Escher nightmare.
 
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Onix555

Member
Apr 23, 2019
3,379
UK
two pages of memes and not one image of an actual device. shame. they call this wild looking thing a stellarator (wendelstein 7-x), i guess it is similar to a tokamak in that it confines plasma, but what do i know.
eikBLMX.jpg
Similar concept in that it uses magnets to confine the plasma. However scientists theorise that the wack shape would be superior for the flow of the plasma, as opposed to the "nice looking" tokamaks
 

supercommodore

Prophet of Truth
Member
Apr 13, 2020
4,187
UK
two pages of memes and not one image of an actual device. shame. they call this wild looking thing a stellarator (wendelstein 7-x), i guess it is similar to a tokamak in that it confines plasma, but what do i know.
eikBLMX.jpg

Yeah it is an alternative approach which has some key benefits such as theoretically no plasma disruptions (sudden loss of plasma) and higher densities. This is mainly down to the device having zero/negligible plasma current unlike a tokamak which have currents in the order of millions of amps.

They do have their downsides, one of which is the engineering complexity of the design. W7-X has five-fold symmetry and what's called non-planar magnets. So the engineering tolerance is very small.
 
OP
OP
DiipuSurotu

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
What's going on in this thread... This is a science thread with good news and yet people are getting mad like it's a politics thread or a TLJ thread or something :/
 

show me your skeleton

#1 Bugsnax Fan
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,593
skeleton land

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,189
This is some really cool stuff.
Another notch for "science, fuck yeah" after the vaccine news last month.
 

Wackamole

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,931
Last time I checked it don't produce waste.

The reactor will be dangerous for few hundred of year but that is not much compared to fission.
You're combining hydrogen into helium. There is no waste. The waste problem is also hyperbolized for fission reactors, btw but that's another subject.
Minimal, reusable Tritium within 100 years
Super. Sounds great
 
Mar 10, 2018
8,707
I just find it ridiculous how someone posting on a video game forum has the nerves to thinks himself above the work of literally generations of scientist from all corners of the world, tackling one of the most challenging problem of all time. Like, you know how many headaches reaching those temperatures is causing? ANd your first instinct is to go with "why are they so dumb? Just lower the temperature, duh!".
Next time you think you managed to solve a world changing problem sitting in your chair in front of your computer and won yourself a nobel prize with a single forum post, just stop and think again.
Who shit in your cereal this morning?
 

TorianElecdra

Member
Feb 25, 2020
2,510
Both the US and the EU have their own tokamak projects, I don't understand why you are bringing up The Four Pests here.

We all know why he is doing so.

Anyway, amazing breakthrough! Cold fussion would still be preferable but baby steps I guess.

That's fine. I'm done here because context of original comment replied to doesn't matter. We're done here and all replies are now on the ignore list. Take care.

Lmao. Transparent.
 

Tahnit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,965
Fusion is the holy grail of energy. Once its perfected and becomes cheap enough energy problems will vanish. This will lead to clean energy for everyone.

if politicans dont get in the FUCKING WAY and Oil companies dont buy them out.
 

supercommodore

Prophet of Truth
Member
Apr 13, 2020
4,187
UK
Wait so that massive amount radiant heat actually stops at the magnetic field?

The magnetic fields just stop the plasma from coming into direct contact with the machine surface. Electromagnetic radiation will not be contained by the magnetic fields unlike the electrons and ions. Similarly as neutrons have no charge they leave the plasma immediately after being produced by fusion reactions.
 

Tacitus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,024
two pages of memes and not one image of an actual device. shame. they call this wild looking thing a stellarator (wendelstein 7-x), i guess it is similar to a tokamak in that it confines plasma, but what do i know.

Here's an image of the ITER tokamak. The actual fusion happens inside the orange vessel.
tokamak-full.jpg


Wait so that massive amount radiant heat actually stops at the magnetic field?
ITER will be equipped with a cooling water system to manage the heat generated during operation of the tokamak. The internal surfaces of the vacuum vessel (first wall blanket and divertor) must be cooled to approximately 240 °C only a few metres from the 150-million-degree plasma.

Like I said previously, shit's hard.
 

The Waistcoat

Member
Nov 8, 2017
405
Just to put my mind at ease (because it went to the extreme first) how bad would a meltdown be for this kind of device? How would it compare to a Chernobyl type meltdown?
 

SinkFla

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,429
Pensacola, Fl
I just find it ridiculous how someone posting on a video game forum has the nerves to thinks himself above the work of literally generations of scientist from all corners of the world, tackling one of the most challenging problem of all time. Like, you know how many headaches reaching those temperatures is causing? ANd your first instinct is to go with "why are they so dumb? Just lower the temperature, duh!".
Next time you think you managed to solve a world changing problem sitting in your chair in front of your computer and won yourself a nobel prize with a single forum post, just stop and think again.

Did a reactor test burn all but the thinnest layer of your skin off? Jesus.
 

Lishi

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,284
Just to put my mind at ease (because it went to the extreme first) how bad would a meltdown be for this kind of device? How would it compare to a Chernobyl type meltdown?

There won't be enough fuel inside the reactor to cause damage outside the reactor.
So in the worst case scenario it will fizzle out.
 

EloKa

GSP
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,905
It's good that different nations are independently working on Tokamak reactors. I think ITER might be one of the biggest projects for mankind.

Btw why is the first page such a horrendous mess? People just read the title, see "china" and "artificial sun" and immediately start doomposting?
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,072
Just to put my mind at ease (because it went to the extreme first) how bad would a meltdown be for this kind of device? How would it compare to a Chernobyl type meltdown?
The plasma needs to be encased and heavily controlled because it is not self sustaining (, the main problem right now is being able to maintain it for long enough for the energy to power it up and sustain it is less than the energy we can make out of it while activated). If there is a meltdown, it would burn out very fast and end up without that much harm.

Also, because it is fusion and not fision, there isnt that much radioactive material, so even in case a meltdown occured, it would only create a whole mess of melted stuff that ends up quickly cooling down (think lava).
 

The Waistcoat

Member
Nov 8, 2017
405
Thank you all for the informative replies! Here's hoping this changes things for the better and we can stop relying on the more nasty fuels we currently have.
 

N.Domixis

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,208
The plasma needs to be encased and heavily controlled because it is not self sustaining (, the main problem right now is being able to maintain it for long enough for the energy to power it up and sustain it is less than the energy we can make out of it while activated). If there is a meltdown, it would burn out very fast and end up without that much harm.

Also, because it is fusion and not fision, there isnt that much radioactive material, so even in case a meltdown occured, it would only create a whole mess of melted stuff that ends up quickly cooling down (think lava).
Melted stuff? Wouldn't these temperatures vaporize everything around them and have liquid metal condense all over the place?
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,072
Melted stuff? Wouldn't these temperatures vaporize everything around them and have liquid metal condense all over the place?
There isnt enough fusion material when compared to the size of the machine to completely vaporize everything. In the end it is all about the heat needing to go somewhere to create "stable" temperature, and in this case there isnt that much reaction that would self-feed and increase the rate of reaction (which is the problem with fision).
 

Sander VF

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
25,910
Tbilisi, Georgia
Commercially viable fusion power wouldn't just be able to replace stuff like fossil fuels.

It can theoretically produce so much power that it would change the world. Like the impacts on agriculture alone would be massive. Suddenly you have immense amounts of cheap power for vertical farming (and the advent of vertical farming would have massive implications), suddenly desalinating tons of sea water is available, etc.

Etc

There's a reason it regarded as holy grail.

Problem is that it is immensely hard to make it work and thus it has been pipe-dream for almost a century.
 

N.Domixis

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,208
Commercially viable fusion power wouldn't just be able to replace stuff like fossil fuels.

It can theoretically produce so much power that it would change the world. Like the impacts on agriculture alone would be massive. Suddenly you have immense amounts of cheap power for vertical farming (and the advent of vertical farming would have massive implications), suddenly desalinating tons of sea water is available, etc.

Etc

There's a reason it regarded as holy grail.

Problem is that it is immensely hard to make it work and thus it has been pipe-dream for almost a century.
And once miniaturized, iron man style suits is right around the corner.
 

Idde

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,652
Soooo, the idea is to use the energy it produces to power it again and to create a surplus? But the reason it's not a viable source for energy right now is there's too many unpredictable and extremely complicated factors to keep it going for prolonged periods of time? But the prognosis is this will be figured out in due time?
(If I'm interpreting everything in this thread right)

And slightly but not completely off topic; seeing how much of the total co2 comes from China it's great that they're putting work in to reducing it.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,072
Soooo, the idea is to use the energy it produces to power it again and to create a surplus? But the reason it's not a viable source for energy right now is there's too many unpredictable and extremely complicated factors to keep it going for prolonged periods of time? But the prognosis is this will be figured out in due time?
(If I'm interpreting everything in this thread right)
Yes, there is a set amount of time the reactor would need to be operational for it to produce net energy (more energy than put onto it to start + maintain), but it hasnt been reached due to difficulties on maintaining the stream, and high temperatures meaning they need to power down to avoid damaging the reactor. The time has been creaping up slowly, with a big jump "recently" when they started using computers to figure out more optimal designs for the plasma stream.

I think the current operational record is the Wendelstein 7X with around 100s.

Edit:
https://www.iter.org/sci/Goals
www.iter.org

Milestones around the world

Producing fusion energy, it soon became clear, would require marshalling the creative forces, technological skills, and financial resources of the international community. The Joint European Torus (JET) in the UK, in operation since 1983, was a first step in this direction. JET, which is...
 

Parthenios

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
13,588
150,000,000° Celsius seems like I don't know... a lot? How exactly are they containing this sun furnace?
If they released the plasma, I wonder what kind of damage it would cause? I suppose it depends on the amount of plasma, which would determine the total amount of energy released?
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
There is a fair amount of money going in as far as government scientific projects go. ITER will cost somewhere between €20-30 billion and the EU-DEMO machine after will likely cost up to double that.

It's a slow moving field of science because the nature of the problem. There are many areas of a reactor that still need physics and engineering solutions.
This reactor is part of the ITER project.
I was pleasantly surprised the Trump adminstration did kick China out of it, they have been trying to kill every scientific cooperation between China and the west, and I suspect it would have been super easy to scare americans about omg nuclear technology. Plus Rick fucking Perry was heading the Department of Energy and I generally just expect the worst decisions from him.

I feel like people have been talking about Fusion reactors my whole life but the tech never really seems to materialize.

Fission reactors didn't take long.
Fission reactors are amazingly simple, at least in concept.

OcMSQox.jpg


This is pretty much how they work, for real. Making them safe an efficent took a lot of time and effort, but it wasn't hard to get a basic one to work.
Fusion is a much more difficult problem, both from a theoretrical and practical perspective.
 

Tacitus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,024
Didn't all designs thus far eventually fail because, despite how careful one might be during design and construction, any minute error will cause cascading inefficiencies, eventually leading to the system not reaching breakeven point?
I'm not sure of the details, but I know that they're building ITER so big because they think it'll help stabilizing the plasma.
 

supercommodore

Prophet of Truth
Member
Apr 13, 2020
4,187
UK
This reactor is part of the ITER project.
I was pleasantly surprised the Trump adminstration did kick China out of it, they have been trying to kill every scientific cooperation between China and the west, and I suspect it would have been super easy to scare americans about omg nuclear technology. Plus Rick fucking Perry was heading the Department of Energy and I generally just expect the worst decisions from him.

I don't think the US ever had to power to remove China from the ITER project once they'd joined anyway. The US actually withdrew from the ITER project over costs back in the late 90s and rejoined in 2003. The EU is paying for around 40-45% of the cost of ITER the others and the US are paying something like 7% each. So the only indispensable member is the EU really (also because the machine is already under construction there).

There are US labs that collaborate with China, such as General Atomics in San Diego. The EU has quite a high level collaboration with China on fusion research. My colleagues and I have visited often and the collaboration is reasonably sized.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
I don't think the US ever had to power to remove China from the ITER project once they'd joined anyway. The US actually withdrew from the ITER project over costs back in the late 90s and rejoined in 2003. The EU is paying for around 40-45% of the cost of ITER the others and the US are paying something like 7% each. So the only indispensable member is the EU really (also because the machine is already under construction there).

There are US labs that collaborate with China, such as General Atomics in San Diego. The EU has quite a high level collaboration with China on fusion research. My colleagues and I have visited often and the collaboration is reasonably sized.
Congress passed a law that ban any and all collaboration between NASA and Chinese national.
We could have easily do it with ITER, it would probably been an easier sell for the public.
Very happy we didn't.

If they released the plasma, I wonder what kind of damage it would cause? I suppose it depends on the amount of plasma, which would determine the total amount of energy released?
It will dissapite almost immediatly, it might be able to damage the magnets holding it maybe, I'm not sure, but it's not going to be a ball that go through the earth or anything, nor is will it react with anything really.
Lightning create plasma all the time, and while I'm not sure it's hotter than this reactor, it is hotter than the sun by quite a bit.
These type of reactors are really just super safe, it's hard to think of a way they can catastrophically fail in a way that is scary.
 

Idde

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,652
Yes, there is a set amount of time the reactor would need to be operational for it to produce net energy (more energy than put onto it to start + maintain), but it hasnt been reached due to difficulties on maintaining the stream, and high temperatures meaning they need to power down to avoid damaging the reactor. The time has been creaping up slowly, with a big jump "recently" when they started using computers to figure out more optimal designs for the plasma stream.

I think the current operational record is the Wendelstein 7X with around 100s.

Edit:
https://www.iter.org/sci/Goals
www.iter.org

Milestones around the world

Producing fusion energy, it soon became clear, would require marshalling the creative forces, technological skills, and financial resources of the international community. The Joint European Torus (JET) in the UK, in operation since 1983, was a first step in this direction. JET, which is...

Thanks! Crazy to think that so much money is being put into something that is so incredibly complicated and has not produced any energy yet, but which could have such a huge impact when it finally does work. Though I guess it provides a lot of scientifically relevant data as well. Gives me some hope for mankind.
 

N.Domixis

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,208
Tril
This reactor is part of the ITER project.
I was pleasantly surprised the Trump adminstration did kick China out of it, they have been trying to kill every scientific cooperation between China and the west, and I suspect it would have been super easy to scare americans about omg nuclear technology. Plus Rick fucking Perry was heading the Department of Energy and I generally just expect the worst decisions from him.


Fission reactors are amazingly simple, at least in concept.

OcMSQox.jpg


This is pretty much how they work, for real. Making them safe an efficent took a lot of time and effort, but it wasn't hard to get a basic one to work.
Fusion is a much more difficult problem, both from a theoretrical and practical perspective.
troll physics that work