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Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
BrightShockedCapeghostfrog-size_restricted.gif


Hard pass


That's not Hard Pass, that's Kantun Pass in Outer Jabronia. It's a country club prison for nonviolent golf fraudsters and the like.


BTW the appreciable difference in how your internet activity feels and behaves in Shanghai vs Beijing is fascinating. That first time you go to Facebook by habit and realize you're not in Kansas anymore is quite something. As is watching your background processes while using hotel wifi in Beijing.

I usually take a flattened "empty" laptop or tablet there and one other country I won't derail this thread with.
 
Jan 10, 2018
6,327
I know it hurts that people don't value criticism given from a false moral highground. "Shame on thee but not me" is the American way!

Impressive way to defend whataboutism, which is a simple and intriguing to tell us that you hate America.

This has nothing to do with debt on any level.

It's just that the west really really don't give a fuck about Xinjiang on any level outside as something that generates bad news about China so we can justify aggressive economic stance against it.

I mean, the Xinjiang independence movement is still designated as terrorist organization by both the US and the EU.


p.s.

I would much rather get a loan from China than the IMF, but that's a different discussion.


PS: I wanna raise a goalpost, but kick it over with 'that's a different discussion' before you adress the goalpost.
 

OrdinaryPrime

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,042
You're conflating the ethnic cleansing into this issue because your bullshit whataboutism deflection can't stand on its own. Yes ethnic cleansing is horrid. This thread is about border immigrations.

This thread is about border immigrations in a certain region which is housing the detention centers where the million Muslims are getting re-educated. I don't know why that has to be spelled out. There's no reason to talk about the United States, not because they are somehow better or worse in this regard or any other regard when compared to China, but because it's absolutely irrelevant and has been a complete derail. Which perhaps is what you're trying to do.
 

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
This has nothing to do with debt on any level.
It's just that the west really really don't give a fuck about Xinjiang on any level outside as something that generates bad news about China so we can justify aggressive economic stance against it.
I mean, the Xinjiang independence movement is still designated as terrorist organization by both the US and the EU.

p.s.
I would much rather get a loan from China than the IMF, but that's a different discussion.

I am not familiar with the movement, yet.

Regardless, China holds tremendous power given how the rest of world wants "things" at "affordable" prices that China can manufacture whilst their worker gets peanuts and do 9/9/6.

Insofar as debt having nothing to do with, well if I am mistaken then thanks for the correction; however, I find it rather interesting that that and the manufacturing leadership would not grant China some measure of immunity against sanctions levied by international powers for the blatant human rights violations.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
PS: I wanna raise a goalpost, but kick it over with 'that's a different discussion' before you adress the goalpost.
I mean, if you want to hear me talk shit about the IMF I will most certainly be happy to do that, but I'm kinda worried people will hurt themselves shouting "whataboutism".
Also, that's a really bizarre use of "moving the goalposts". Like, what goalposts are you imagining being moved here?
 

Masseyme

Banned
May 23, 2019
379
Impressive way to defend whataboutism, which is a simple and intriguing to tell us that you hate America.




PS: I wanna raise a goalpost, but kick it over with 'that's a different discussion' before you adress the goalpost.

I hate alot of America's inherently racist institution. I would leave but they owe me and mine reparations so you're stuck with me.

This thread is about border immigrations in a certain region which is housing the detention centers where the million Muslims are getting re-educated. I don't know why that has to be spelled out. There's no reason to talk about the United States, not because they are somehow better or worse in this regard or any other regard when compared to China, but because it's absolutely irrelevant and has been a complete derail. Which perhaps is what you're trying to do.


I simply mentioned that this kind of stuff happens here and other places like the UAE and you jumped to the USA's defense like a mother cat defending its kittens. If you were so morally secure then that would've breezed right off your shoulders. But guilt..
 
Jan 10, 2018
6,327
whataboutism is the antidote for glass houses.

This is the result of an investigation by a independent german newspaper and a independent german instute, but if Murica is all you care than whataboutism is totally justified.

China has become the new Russia on forums and mods are doing dogshit to moderate. I'm out.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
I am not familiar with the movement, yet.

Regardless, China holds tremendous power given how the rest of world wants "things" at "affordable" prices that China can manufacture whilst their worker gets peanuts and do 9/9/6.
Okay, I assume you genuinely care about the people of Xinjiang, so don't you think it's worth to try and know those things?
I'm not trying to attack you personally, but do you have a rough idea of what you think the solution to this region's problem should be?
Because I really really doubt the west is gonna support a creation of another Muslim country in central Asia.
And this is not some abstract shit, because these stories are used to justify specific policies that the US takes in regard of China, but said polices never ever seem to be related to Xinjiang and are instead just broad attempts to hurt China economically. And again, there is a very simple move that the US and the EU can do tomorrow to support the Xinjiang independence movement, and it's so off people radar that most don't even know that this is something that might make sense to ask their own government to do.

Insofar as debt having nothing to do with, well if I am mistaken then thanks for the correction; however, I find it rather interesting that that and the manufacturing leadership would not grant China some measure of immunity against sanctions levied by international powers for the blatant human rights violations.
China official foreign policy ethos is the Five Principles of Peaceful Coexistence, which generally can be summed up as "don't start nothing, ain't gonna be nothing" (and in less dumb joke terms, it means that China at least officially believe that whatever happen inside a country's borders is their own fucking business).
Now obviously, no country ever live up to their ideals perfectly, but generally speaking, unlike the IMF, China don't force structural changes to a country's economy as a condition to get loans.
 
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OrdinaryPrime

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,042
I simply mentioned that this kind of stuff happens here and other places like the UAE and you jumped to the USA's defense like a mother cat defending its kittens. If you were so morally secure then that would've breezed right off your shoulders. But guilt..

No I didn't. Now you're just fucking lying. I responded to a post where you said the NSA/CIA was doing this shit too which is whataboutism. Literally this one:

p.png


Honestly I'm tired of arguing with you. It's pointless, exhausting and depressing as fuck.
 

Deleted member 9305

Oct 26, 2017
4,064
Buy cheap burner phone before traveling to China, leave it there when going home. Got it.
 

Pandora012

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,496
I'll just bring a new phone when traveling. Seems like that's gonna have to be a new thing to do when traveling.
 

Masseyme

Banned
May 23, 2019
379
No I didn't. Now you're just fucking lying. I responded to a post where you said the NSA/CIA was doing this shit too which is whataboutism. Literally this one:

p.png


Honestly I'm tired of arguing with you. It's pointless, exhausting and depressing as fuck.

You responded with a minirant about whataboutism and with a pathetic attempt at 1UPing China because I dared mention that this happens elsewhere. You would think since this issue is obviously so near and dear to your hearts that you would want to know if its going on in your backyard. But thats some Murica exceptionalism for your ass though.

The issue I have, as always, with this China threads, is the incredible amount of whataboutism here. The only thing I'll defend the United States about is that we can talk about this on the open Internet and I can call the US and how it treats tourists, immigrants, etc as despicable. That cannot be done in China. It's just tiring to see when China is trying to stop the flow of information about them re-educating hundreds of thousands of people.
 

Sykdom

Banned
Feb 12, 2019
993
California
That's not Hard Pass, that's Kantun Pass in Outer Jabronia. It's a country club prison for nonviolent golf fraudsters and the like.


BTW the appreciable difference in how your internet activity feels and behaves in Shanghai vs Beijing is fascinating. That first time you go to Facebook by habit and realize you're not in Kansas anymore is quite something. As is watching your background processes while using hotel wifi in Beijing.

I usually take a flattened "empty" laptop or tablet there and one other country I won't derail this thread with.
No I'm hard passing on going to China, or at least through normal channels
 

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
Okay, I assume you genuinely care about the people of Xinjiang, so don't you think it's worth to try and know those things?
I'm not trying to attack you personally, but have do you have a rough idea of what the solution to this region's problem should be?
Because I really really doubt the west is gonna support a creation of another Muslim country in central Asia.
And this is not some abstract shit, because these stories are used to justify specific policies that the US takes in regard of China, but said polices never ever seem to be related to Xinjiang and are instead just broad attempts to hurt China economically. And again, there is a very simple move that the US and the EU can do tomorrow to support the Xinjiang independent movement, and it's so off people radar that most don't even know that this is something that might make sense to ask their own government to do.


China official foreign policy ethos is the Five Principles of Peaceful Coexistence, which generally can be summed up as "don't start nothing, ain't gonna be nothing" (and in less dumb joke terms, it means that China at least officially believe that whatever happen inside a country's borders is their own fucking business).
Now obviously, no country ever live up to their ideals perfectly, but generally speaking, unlike the IMF, China don't force structural changes to a country's economy as a condition to get loans.

Thank you for the information. And you are absolutely right. I did not know of Xinjiang's movement for independence and now that I am aware, the onus is on me to do my due diligence and read up on it.

But yea, I very much doubt that the west would support the creation of another muslim country unless there is something significant in it for them. And yet all the while, I feel like the world can do something about the humanitarian crisis regarding the Uighurs because we sure as shit failed the Rohinga.

The one thing I have to ask (that is if you have the information) is why when China invests in the infrastructure of a country like in parts of Africa we get news about how the people on the ground responsible for managing the projects can be racists or how in broader terms, their growing influence around the world is seeing stifling of criticism of CCP by the press (Australia) or students calling for freeing Tibet (Canada).

I have nothing against China as a country; from the days of opium wars they have been (like much of South and East asian subcontinent) made to suffer under colonialism. But much like India's ultra nationalists BJP that leads India, I have absolutely no love for CCP.
 

¡ B 0 0 P !

Banned
Apr 4, 2019
2,915
Greater Toronto Area
I hate alot of America's inherently racist institution. I would leave but they owe me and mine reparations so you're stuck with me.

I simply mentioned that this kind of stuff happens here and other places like the UAE and you jumped to the USA's defense like a mother cat defending its kittens. If you were so morally secure then that would've breezed right off your shoulders. But guilt..

How would you like it if a thread on slave reparations was derailed by someone bringing up how the Rohingya of Myanmar have it worse. That's what you're doing right now.
 

janoGX

Banned
Nov 29, 2017
2,453
Chile

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
The one thing I have to ask (that is if you have the information) is why when China invests in the infrastructure of a country like in parts of Africa we get news about how the people on the ground responsible for managing the projects can be racists or how in broader terms, their growing influence around the world is seeing stifling of criticism of CCP by the press (Australia) or students calling for freeing Tibet (Canada).
There are a couple of questions to unpack here -
First, why does china do that shit in Africa, I think that's simple - China genuinely believes that global trade and stronger international economic ties are good things, both for China and the world. I think their words and their actions speaks volumes on that.
As to why some projects turn to shit, I donno, I assume it's mostly corrupt greedy assholes doing corrupt greedy things, though if the claim is that all Chinese projects in Africa are like that or even that Chinese project are objectively worse than those run by western countries, than I think it needs some backing (I also kinda doubt it's true).

I'm not sure what you're really asking about Tibet, but internationally, China does very little beyond throwing an empty diplomatic hissy fit about that stuff.

p.s.
I donno, I don't feel like criticism of China is stifled in western press on any level.
 

Meauxse

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,248
New Orleans, LA
Fix the title then before asking for someone to read the excerpt.



Only if you go to the Xinjiang region, the rest of China is alright. I have a friend who just went there for a couple weeks and had no phone taken or anything.

I'm not the OP or a mod so I don't get why you're bitching about me about the right to not read the OP.

That user went on to profess that none of this is happening so I'm not sure if that's the fight you want to pick up.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Only if you go to the Xinjiang region, the rest of China is alright. I have a friend who just went there for a couple weeks and had no phone taken or anything.
I've been to Xinjiang many times and no one ever took my phone. And if you're talking about the general feel of the place, at least when traveling through it, it doesn't feel at all different than the rest of China (edit: at least when it come to security shit, Xinjiang feels very different than most places in the world in some regards).
 

Syriel

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
11,088
China official foreign policy ethos is the Five Principles of Peaceful Coexistence, which generally can be summed up as "don't start nothing, ain't gonna be nothing" (and in less dumb joke terms, it means that China at least officially believe that whatever happen inside a country's borders is their own fucking business).
Now obviously, no country ever live up to their ideals perfectly, but generally speaking, unlike the IMF, China don't force structural changes to a country's economy as a condition to get loans.

The only problem with the five principles stance is that China keeps redefining its borders further and further outward.

I'm wondering when China is going to declare that since Pangaea was once a thing, all of the world is part of "historical China". ;)

China is no stranger to using economic pressure to silence critics in other countries.
 

Sunster

The Fallen
Oct 5, 2018
10,019
I had a silver chain with a pendant I bought from an antique shop here in my city and it was stolen by Chinese airport security. They literally just put it in their pocket and there was nothing I could do about it. I wasn't even visiting China, just transferring at Beijing airport. But I damn sure don't feel like visiting now lol
 

MilesQ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,490
I can't see mention of what specific border? I don't necessarily doubt the story, but why keep that information vague?
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
The only problem with the five principles stance is that China keeps redefining its borders further and further outward.

I'm wondering when China is going to declare that since Pangaea was once a thing, all of the world is part of "historical China". ;)

China is no stranger to using economic pressure to silence critics in other countries.
I think it's definitely true that China at times bullies its smaller and weaker neighbors, but I don't see a lot of evidence that they are in the business of acquiring vast new territories.
I don't think it's in their DNA, China generally care about China, maybe too much, and certainly what they consider China is not universally agreed upon by everyone, but I really really don't think your gonna see any sort of big time military adventures from them. We know what they think about America's last couple of fun wars, and I really doubt they want any of that, ever.

I think the problems with China are all about domestic policy, I honestly feel that on the international stage, they're pretty reasonable player, and I really don't think that they are most certainly not trying to undermine the US, it's political system or its economy.
 

Grug

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,645
China Defence Force doing their thing again. Trying to claim that this forum isn't equally critical of America is hilarious.
 

Meatfist

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,292
Not surprised. The general consensus these days in corporate IT is that if you're traveling to China for work, you're getting burner devices
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
This has nothing to do with debt on any level.
It's just that the west really really don't give a fuck about Xinjiang on any level outside as something that generates bad news about China so we can justify aggressive economic stance against it.
I mean, the Xinjiang independence movement is still designated as terrorist organization by both the US and the EU.

p.s.
I would much rather get a loan from China than the IMF, but that's a different discussion.

Thats irrelevant. An entire population cant possibly designated as part of a terrorist organisation, thats the line authoritarians take, meanwhile genocide is taking place on a mass scale. Whats event more chilling is the reason for this , a "re-education" because the CCP dont like the way they pray. Men/women and children simply going about their day arnt part of any movement yet have been detained and imprisoned without trail or sentence.

Look at the scale of this thing
On 12 July 2015 a satellite swung over the rolling deserts and oasis cities of China's vast far west.

One of the images it captured that day just shows a patch of empty, untouched, ashen-grey sand.

It seems an unlikely place to start an investigation into one of the most pressing human rights concerns of our age.

But less than three years later, on 22 April 2018, a satellite photo of that same piece of desert showed something new.

02_china_2015_v4_2560_x_1440-mr_uvondus.jpg


02_china_2018_v4_2560_x_1440-mr_hauqhha.jpg


It places the site just outside the small town of Dabancheng, about an hour's drive from the provincial capital, Urumqi.

...we land at Urumqi airport in the early hours of the morning.

But by the time we arrive in Dabancheng we're being followed by at least five cars, containing an assortment of uniformed and plain-clothes police officers and government officials.

...

While still a few hundred metres away, we see something unexpected.

The wide expanse of dusty ground, shown on the satellite image to the east of the site, is empty no more.

In its place, a huge extension project is taking shape.

And it is just one of many similar, large prison-type structures that have been built across Xinjiang in the past few years.

Uighurs are now subject to ethnic profiling at thousands of pedestrian and vehicle checkpoints while Han Chinese residents are often waved through.

Cross-referencing this information with other media sources, Zenz suggests that at least several hundred thousand and possibly over a million Uighurs and other Muslim minorities could have been interned for re-education.

With this part of the report which is especially chilling

In the city of Kashgar, the once bustling, beating heart of Uighur culture, the narrow streets are eerily quiet. Many of the doors are padlocked shut.

On one, we see a notice instructing people how to respond to questions about where their family members have gone.

"Say they're being looked after for the good of society and their families," it says.

The city's main mosque is more like a museum.

We try to find out when the next prayer time is but no-one seems to be able to tell us.

"I'm just here to deal with tourists," one official tells us. "I don't know anything about prayer times."

In the square, a few beardless old men sit chatting.

We ask them where everyone else is.

One of them gestures to his mouth, holding his lips together to signal that it's too risky for him to talk to journalists.

But the other whispers: "No-one comes anymore."

Theres undeniable evidence of interment camps holding over a million Uighur's, thats got nothing to do with Xinjiang independence movement.

And it doesnt end with prisions springing up, beards being banned, mosques being demolished, innocent Uighurs being thrown into prison for observing fasting during Ramadan. This is China at its most terrifying, to project genocide as an action of "peace".

Much, much more here:
China's hidden camps
China's vanishing beards and mosques
 
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Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Thats irrelevant. An entire population cant possibly designated as part of a terrorist organisation, thats the line authoritarians take, meanwhile genocide is taking place on a mass scale. Whats event more chilling is the reason for this , a "re-education" because the CCP dont like the way they pray. Men/women and children simply going about their day arnt part of any movement yet have been detained and imprisoned without trail or sentence
How the hell is that irrelevant?
Do you know how the terror watch list works?
So you really care about the Uyghurs and want to support them, but if you so much give them money the US and EU can and will put you on terror financing list, and trust me you don't want to be there.
And let's say they miraculously gain independence, now China I would assume wouldn't be super friendly with them and all American and European companies are barred from doing business there because War on Terror, so what's their future now? Being Putin's bitch forever? Beg Kazakhstan for a free trade zone?

I mean, it's fine to be upset at what's going on in Xinjiang, but at some point you need to ask either yourself or your politicians what's the fucking plan there and what's the fucking end game here, because as it currently stand, your very justified outrage is used to push policies that have nothing to do with Xinjiang and are not even pretending to improve the lives of the people there.
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
How the hell is that irrelevant?
Do you know how the terror watch list works?
So you really care about the Uyghurs and want to support them, but if you so much give them money the US and EU can and will put you on terror financing list, and trust me you don't want to be there.
And let's say they miraculously gain independence, now China I would assume wouldn't be super friendly with them and all American and European companies are barred from doing business there because War on Terror, so what's their future now? Being Putin's bitch forever? Beg Kazakhstan for a free trade zone?

I mean, it's fine to be upset at what's going on in Xinjiang, but at some point you need to ask either yourself or your politicians what's the fucking plan there and what's the fucking end game here, because as it currently stand, your very justified outrage is used to push policies that have nothing to do with Xinjiang and are not even pretending to improve the lives of the people there.

Supporting human rights of innocent Uighurs will put me on a terrorist watch list? Your implying Uighurs are terrorists by default then, and if you are, its not helpful for your position. I said the movement you brought up is irrelevant because innocent women/children and men have been forcefully imprisoned without trial, charge or any access to legal aid, purely based on their outward appearance, its ridiculous that i have to spell out how dangerous this idea you seem to be clinging onto is. Uighurs are not part of a movement just because they share ethnicity or culture with those that are. Above all else no plan that actions genocide is a plan, which i hope your not glossing over, whatever the situation was things are far worse for the Uighurs, so lets not make assumptions about intentions of politicians, and focus on stopping these atrocities first and foremost.