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Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
You're assuming that the Chinese people are really eager to overthrow their government, and I honestly just don't think that's true.
I'm saying it would make no difference if they were. But I'm not even talking overthrow, they can't even advocate for change. What's happening in Hong Kong could only happen in Hong Kong, and it's still a tight crackdown.

Like, even this is too much:
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Those ethnic groups I read were, is it 'Han', in the costumes. It could be just anti-china propoganda. Would like to hear from the minorities and all China. hear that voice without having to fear of maybe offending some puff stuffed leader.

I only looked at the pictures posted. If there is a mistake. Whatever. It's just an opinion and I don't feel like arguing it. lol

If someone wants to take it up by all means find them.
That sound amazingly far fetched, a lot of those people don't look anything like Han Chinese.
And if you want to talk to people in China, you should go to China and do that. Chinese people aren't afraid to talk to foreigners, and they also aren't afraid to talk shit about their government.

In theory you could also do that on the internet, but honestly, look at this thread and tell me you don't understand why Chinese people don't usually come to places like this.
 
Oct 31, 2017
4,333
Unknown
That sound amazingly far fetched, a lot of those people don't look anything like Han Chinese.
And if you want to talk to people in China, you should go to China and do that. Chinese people aren't afraid to talk to foreigners, and they also aren't afraid to talk shit about their government.

In theory you could also do that on the internet, but honestly, look at this thread and tell me you don't understand why Chinese people don't usually come to places like this.
Visiting a country being run by a group that vivisect people for organs is unpalatable. Maybe when China's a little healthier internally.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
I'm saying it would make no difference if they were. But I'm not even talking overthrow, they can't even advocate for change. What's happening in Hong Kong could only happen in Hong Kong, and it's still a tight crackdown.

Like, even this is too much:

I think it's important to consider what the people of China think and want, and I get the sense that a lot of people in the west have really weird ideas about it.

Also, you bring Hong Kong (and I generally think it's important not to conflate Hong Kong with the mainland here, the situation and the opinions of the people about their government are VERY different between those place), those protests are the most successful non-violent resistance movement of the 21th century, they haven't achieved everything that they want, but they achieved quite a bit, and they're not done. I don't think the fatalism I often see in this forum about them is warranted.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Visiting a country being run by a group that vivisect people for organs is unpalatable. Maybe when China's a little healthier internally.
I don't think refusing to interact with Chinese people is this amazing moral stance.
You act like talking to a Chinese person is an endorsement of the worst things their government has done, and I donno, I really really don't think that way.

Like, what do you think you're gonna get by giving the silence treatment to a billion people?

Because I can tell you what you are getting for that now, and that's some weird ass ideas about what China is.
 

Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
There's a lot of diverse cultures and people in China that haven't been seen in the media and information is so tight.
The display itself seemed more about trying to intimidate than be prideful and joyous of accomplishments.
On top of that, and this is more a personal observation they just broadcast each and every important person in their administration to the world. Cool. Thanks.
Their ops are under such strictness they can't say anything negative about pooh bear which immediately outs them lol.
That is also a sign of weak internal fortitude.

As for a Chinese gov national celebration which would be respectable to an observer: it would be something that celebrates the culture and living. joy a sign of internal fortitude...
Where's the stuff and symbols related to the Tao Te Ching or the I Ching. Ancient and beautiful living soul of a lovely civilization.
These may have to be appropriated, if they're unappreciated.
This is specifically a celebration of the founding of the state, of course it's going to be militaristic and nationalist.
The cultural stuff you're thinking of, including all the parading of their minorities, is done in the annual new year's gala, which is a pretty big deal nationwide.
 

the_bromo_tachi

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,376
Japan
I have a coworker who was watching the celebration during work. At first I thought it was North Korea because they were showing off their army...

Offtopic but that same guy seriously believe America is sending CIA agents to Hong Kong to cause chaos or that most people just want to skip school(really? Half of the population?). Guy is really nice but I definitely don't want to talk about politics with him.

Patriotism is okay to have but nationalism is really scary.
 
Oct 31, 2017
4,333
Unknown
I don't think refusing to interact with Chinese people is this amazing moral stance.
You act like talking to a Chinese person is an endorsement of the worst things their government has done, and I donno, I really really don't think that way.

Like, what do you think you're gonna get by giving the silence treatment to a billion people?

Because I can tell you what you are getting for that now, and that's some weird ass ideas about what China is.
If it's taking place in one's nation it is the citizen's own moral responsibility to take care of it.
 

Keuja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,186
That sound amazingly far fetched, a lot of those people don't look anything like Han Chinese.
And if you want to talk to people in China, you should go to China and do that. Chinese people aren't afraid to talk to foreigners, and they also aren't afraid to talk shit about their government.

In theory you could also do that on the internet, but honestly, look at this thread and tell me you don't understand why Chinese people don't usually come to places like this.
In general, Chinese are absolutely afraid of talking shit about the government.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
In general, Chinese are absolutely afraid of talking shit about the government.
This has not been my experience in China, at all.
No but for real, you think most Chinese people want to overthrow their government?
I'm not asking if they should want it, I'm asking if you think they currently do.
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,457
If it's taking place in one's nation it is the citizen's own moral responsibility to take care of it.
Bet all those Chinese and North Koreans who have been abducted from their homes and put into camps for political reasons would really agree with you, mainly because otherwise they'd get shot and then have their organs harvested (and maybe not even in that order!).
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,660
We're not vivisecting people for their organs if that narrows it down for you.

Oh I was unaware that some human rights abuses were vastly superior to others. I'll be sure to let isolated children in American concentration camps or refugees in tent cities in Europe know that they're really just lucky that their organs aren't being harvested. I'm sure they'll appreciate it. Yknow, because of the implication.
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,457
Oh I was unaware that some human rights abuses were vastly superior to others. I'll be sure to let isolated children in American concentration camps or refugees in tent cities in Europe know that they're really just lucky that their organs aren't being harvested. I'm sure they'll appreciate it. Yknow, because of the implication.
*cough cough*
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,660
Yeah, whataboutthat huh

What about what? That you're a first worldist hypocrite? Only thing I can assume until you tell me where you live and what actions you've taken there.

"These people are violently suppressed by their authoritarian government, I demand they throw themselves into the meat grinder for sins they did not commit!" Geez what a take.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,660

You've got this backwards. If someone says "American child internment camps" and someone responds "yeah but Chinese organ harvesting though." That is whattaboutism.

When someone is like "I demand these people rise up against their authoritarian regime because of this specific human rights abuse, but don't talk about whatever my country does and how I probably haven't done jack shit about it." And you call them out on it, that's just pointing out privilege and hypocrisy.
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,457
What about what? That you're a first worldist hypocrite? Only thing I can assume until you tell me where you live and what actions you've taken there.

"These people are violently suppressed by their authoritarian government, I demand they throw themselves into the meat grinder for sins they did not commit!" Geez what a take.
Am I the only one here who finds it hilarious that you're using soviet propaganda tactics to defend one of the largest, most authoritarian countries in the world all while sporting an anarchy symbol avatar?

And where did I call for these people to rise up? All I see people doing here is calling out a country for severe human rights abuse, as everyone does to the ones occurring in the US on here, if that appeases your whataboutism.
 
Oct 31, 2017
4,333
Unknown
What about what? That you're a first worldist hypocrite? Only thing I can assume until you tell me where you live and what actions you've taken there.

"These people are violently suppressed by their authoritarian government, I demand they throw themselves into the meat grinder for sins they did not commit!" Geez what a take.
That's your framing.
I said they were unhealthy internally and the citizens should take care of their own nation.


You've got this backwards. If someone says "American child internment camps" and someone responds "yeah but Chinese organ harvesting though." That is whattaboutism.

When someone is like "I demand these people rise up against their authoritarian regime because of this specific human rights abuse, but don't talk about whatever my country does and how I probably haven't done jack shit about it." And you call them out on it, that's just pointing out privilege and hypocrisy.
And you've got it wrong they did something. Americans have been protesting, deplatfroming, making arrests, stopping funding and so much more. doing their work to stop those camps

You're being disingenuous and alarmist.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,660
Am I the only one here who finds it hilarious that you're using soviet propaganda tactics to defend one of the largest, most authoritarian countries in the world all while sporting an anarchy symbol avatar?

And where did I call for these people to rise up? All I see people doing here is calling out a country for severe human rights abuse, as everyone does to the ones occurring in the US on here, if that appeases your whataboutism.

Oh my god dude 1. Not defending China. Never defended China. Just calling out Hermit for making demands of other people he doesn't live up to himself. And 2. Was talking about Hermit and not you.

That's your framing.
I said they were unhealthy internally and the citizens should take care of their own nation.



And you've got it wrong they did something. Americans have been protesting, deplatfroming, making arrests, stopping funding and so much more. doing their work to stop those camps

You're being disingenuous and alarmist.

So you want people who don't have a democratic process and don't even have small arms to -somehow- take on one of the most sophisticated domestic security apparatuses in history. Sure, makes sense. And yeah, all the work those Americans have put in, and all those kids still in camps. The one guy who actually tried to damage the infrastructure of the camp apparatus got labeled a terrorist by half of ERA, so. I just think your expectations are skewed and hypocritical.
 
Oct 31, 2017
4,333
Unknown
Oh my god dude 1. Not defending China. Never defended China. Just calling out Hermit for making demands of other people he doesn't live up to himself. And 2. Was talking about Hermit and not you.



So you want people who don't have a democratic process and don't even have small arms to -somehow- take on one of the most sophisticated domestic security apparatuses in history. Sure, makes sense. And yeah, all the work those Americans have put in, and all those kids still in camps. The one guy who actually tried to damage the infrastructure of the camp apparatus got labeled a terrorist by half of ERA, so. I just think your expectations are skewed and hypocritical.
Internal problem.
 

Keuja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,186
This has not been my experience in China, at all.
No but for real, you think most Chinese people want to overthrow their government?
I'm not asking if they should want it, I'm asking if you think they currently do.
Maybe criticism of the government in private conversations is OK. Do it publicly, online or at school, you'll end in jail or worse... It is a dictatorship.
Why would the majority want to overthrow the government? They are at a stage where their priority is to make money, not get into trouble for defending free speech or human rights.
 

Ceerious

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,243
Asian
This has not been my experience in China, at all.

May I ask you, did those Chinese realized you're a foreigner during your conversation with them?

It's just that, it's easier for Chinese citizen to talk about this kind of things to a foreigner. Because we know foreigner won't reporting "Inappropriate behavior" to the authorities.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
May I ask you, did those Chinese realized you're a foreigner during your conversation with them?

It's just that, it's easier for Chinese citizen to talk about this kind of things to a foreigner. Because we know foreigner won't reporting "Inappropriate behavior" to the authorities.
Of course, I'm white and no one will ever mistake my Chinese for native. But it's not like I get people in a cone of silence when I talk to them, plus you see Chinese people bitching about that stuff among themselves, you know, they're not really quite people.
I also lost count of how many times I've seen Chinese people beat up cops.

Can I ask you why do you think that they are afraid?

Maybe criticism of the government in private conversations is OK. Do it publicly, online or at school, you'll end in jail or worse... It is a dictatorship.
Why would the majority want to overthrow the government? They are at a stage where their priority is to make money, not get into trouble for defending free speech or human rights.
I think you really over-estimate the level of control the Chinese government has over its citizens.
But regardless, can we at least agree that we're gonna do things in the name of the poor and suffering Chinese citizens, we should probably try to do thing that they want us to do?
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,457
Getting lots of this energy in this thread


maxresdefault.jpg
 

Ceerious

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,243
Asian
Of course, I'm white and no one will ever mistake my Chinese for native. But it's not like I get people in a cone of silence when I talk to them, plus you see Chinese people bitching about that stuff among themselves, you know, they're not really quite people.
I also lost count of how many times I've seen Chinese people beat up cops.

Can I ask you why do you think that they are afraid?

Why do I think that they are afraid, the short answer is I'm Chinese and I know our people. To me, this question is more like " Why are we afraid." This question is too big and it's impossible to give a full answer, but when talk about this stuff, it's important to specify what you're saying. For example, which city did you visit when you were in China? What is the occupation of Chinese people you talk to? Are they party members? Were there party members presented when you guys were talking? Were they middle-class or poor folk? All this helps explain what you have observed.

About those cop-beating you witnessed, there might be some misunderstanding. China has very complex police system. Someone might not be a "real cop" even if wearing uniform. They could be "cop-helpers" without official title and payments. I highly doubt you saw that many "real cops" got beat, because it's a serious crime, utterly intolerable under Xi's reinging. I'm not accused you of voicing false information, it's just that there might be something lost in translation.

There are some areas that police force are weaker though. For example, rural areas with strong local clan power. A Chinese proverb describes this kind of situation: "Sky is high, emperor is far away (天高皇帝远) ".
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Why do I think that they are afraid, the short answer is I'm Chinese and I know our people. To me, this question is more like " Why are we afraid." This question is too big and it's impossible to give a full answer, but when talk about this stuff, it's important to specify what you're saying. For example, which city did you visit when you were in China? What is the occupation of Chinese people you talk to? Are they party members? Were there party members presented when you guys were talking? Were they middle-class or poor folk? All this helps explain what you have observed.

About those cop-beating you witnessed, there might be some misunderstanding. China has very complex police system. Someone might not be a "real cop" even if wearing uniform. They could be "cop-helpers" without official title and payments. I highly doubt you saw that many "real cops" got beat, because it's a serious crime, utterly intolerable under Xi's reinging. I'm not accused you of voicing false information, it's just that there might be something lost in translation.

There are some areas that police force are weaker though. For example, rural areas with strong local clan power. A Chinese proverb describes this kind of situation: "Sky is high, emperor is far away (天高皇帝远) ".
I lived in Beijing (and also Hong Kong, but we're talking about the mainland here) and I traveled all over China, been to every province. And I think I'm familiar with the different types of police, at least to a degree, and have not noticed Chinese people being afraid of any of them all that much. I've seen with my own eyes Chinese people throw down like crazy with full on riot police. I can post videos if people want, those are not hard to find, every time a new high speed rail line is announced, the towns that didn't get a station go out and beat the some cops (btw, just to be clear, I am personally of the opinion that beating cops is a good thing, I know not everyone here agree with that and I don't want to start that fight in this thread, I'm just trying to convey that I'm not trying to badmouth Chinese people here, quite the opposite actually).

I don't know, I obviously can't speak for all the people in China, and there is obviously gonna be some bias in the people I see and interact with, I'm just telling about my experience.

Where in China are you from?
 

Ceerious

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,243
Asian
I lived in Beijing (and also Hong Kong, but we're talking about the mainland here) and I traveled all over China, been to every province. And I think I'm familiar with the different types of police, at least to a degree, and have not noticed Chinese people being afraid of any of them all that much. I've seen with my own eyes Chinese people throw down like crazy with full on riot police. I can post videos if people want, those are not hard to find, every time a new high speed rail line is announced, the towns that didn't get a station go out and beat the some cops (btw, just to be clear, I am personally of the opinion that beating cops is a good thing, I know not everyone here agree with that and I don't want to start that fight in this thread, I'm just trying to convey that I'm not trying to badmouth Chinese people here, quite the opposite actually).

I don't know, I obviously can't speak for all the people in China, and there is obviously gonna be some bias in the people I see and interact with, I'm just telling about my experience.

Where in China are you from?

I was raised in remote village where ethnic minorities made up the majority of the population, now I live alternately in Beijing and Shanghai.

Thanks for your clarifying, now I totally get what you're describing. It is true that local riots involving citizens, gangs and cops happen all the time, mainly in under-developed places. About the railway related issues you mentioned, firstly, those who beat cops would get arrested (but not all of them, because cops don't want to arrest too many people). It's not that they could escaped heavy punishment afterwords.

But the important things is:Some Chinese people revolt against cops in a specific time and place – doesn't equal to "they don't afraid of the government". And those people who revolted against cops, might still be nationalistic zealots themselves. They are not political dissents, which means, they are not "enemies of the nation". Sometimes, people make a few rebellious gesture to voicing their financial demand (In this railway related case: compensation for their occupied lands). Local officials tolerance such behavior to a certain extend, to maintain a delicate power-balance. But if rebel too much, people would face macabre consequence.

And, thanks for sharing your experience in China from a foreigner's perspective. I hope more people will realized that Chinese human rights problems are vastly more complex than "fuck China because of organ harvest".
 

LittleBee

alt account
Banned
Mar 15, 2019
334



Holy shit, what is this? It's like the opening ceremony for the Olympics. Do they do this every year?

China sure knows how to celebrate their national day...
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
I was raised in remote village where ethnic minorities made up the majority of the population, now I live alternately in Beijing and Shanghai.

Thanks for your clarifying, now I totally get what you're describing. It is true that local riots involving citizens, gangs and cops happen all the time, mainly in under-developed places. About the railway related issues you mentioned, firstly, those who beat cops would get arrested (but not all of them, because cops don't want to arrest too many people). It's not that they could escaped heavy punishment afterwords.

But the important things is:Some Chinese people revolt against cops in a specific time and place – doesn't equal to "they don't afraid of the government". And those people who revolted against cops, might still be nationalistic zealots themselves. They are not political dissents, which means, they are not "enemies of the nation". Sometimes, people make a few rebellious gesture to voicing their financial demand (In this railway related case: compensation for their occupied lands). Local officials tolerance such behavior to a certain extend, to maintain a delicate power-balance. But if rebel too much, people would face macabre consequence.

And, thanks for sharing your experience in China from a foreigner's perspective. I hope more people will realized that Chinese human rights problems are vastly more complex than "fuck China because of organ harvest".
As I said, this is just my general impression, which is anecdotal as all hell, and I would imagine the people I am friends with are not really a great representation of the entire population (and while I obviously talk to random people too, it's not like when I travel I go to people and just say "hey, want to talk some shit about Xi?"). Thanks for your answer.

I think China in general is just way more complex than this Good/Evil thinking that a lot of people are trying to reduce it to.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Didn't realize there was a all-female red guard/unit

8TTWQUU.jpg
It's the Beijing ceremonial honor guard. They mostly just raise and lower flags and such.
They only added women in 2015 for the 70th v-day celebration, but that became so popular that I think there's a good chance it will be just all women pretty damn soon.
 

giallo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,295
Seoul
Pffft. Socialist. Hospitals won't even look at you in China without 50% down payment from your credit card.
 

giallo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,295
Seoul
this value can be split into several smaller fees charged periodically, it is completely reasonable and accessible.

Not true. I needed immediate surgery at Huashan Hospital in Shanghai, and they wouldn't even look at me until I gave them 10000RMB. Like, zero medical attention, despite the fact that I was 36 hours away from dying. And my story isn't unique. In my 13 years of living in China, there are many stories of people being turned away from hospitals without insurance or any means to pay upfront.

It's not that I have a problem with them charging for medical services, it's Xi calling his country Socialist. Just call China what it is, a state capitalist nation. The whole rigamarole of China being communist or socialist is pretty funny at this point.