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jackdoe

Member
Oct 27, 2017
670
Tales of the Abyss spoilers:
Luke is kind of the reverse of this in that he betrayed the team with good intentions and then gets shit on by every other team member from their ivory hypocritical freaking towers. Everyone completely dogpiles on him even though every other party member is standing on some VERY shaky moral "high ground". It completely pissed me off (and I hated Luke as a character), to the point where I just gave up on the game.
 

dezzyeight

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
292
SPOILERS FOR Tales of Xillia

As much as i like him and think he is one of the more interesting cast members - i have to put Alvin from Tales of Xillia on this one. The fact that he betrays his other party members constantly and yet they allow him to join back everytime is kinda baffling to me - though their opinion of him isn't the highest.

2595184-2460653905-Alvin.png

This guy was the first character that popped into my head. He betrayed the cast so many damn times it got annoying.
 

Zeno

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,150
maxresdefault.jpg


Patches. I assume most people kept him around as a vendor rather than outright killing him.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
This is a very strangely common trope in Japanese fiction, not just games. It's kind of the sister trope of Defeat Means Friendship. Look no further than Dragon Ball and the likes of Vegeta. "Yeah, he literally destroyed a few entire planets along with every one of their inhabitants, but they were nobody we knew". :)
 

Ogodei

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,256
Coruscant
literally everyone in the dragon ball series is a huge asshole when first introduced,

like all the major characters goku meets are either murderers, perverts or they just wanted to use goku for something

Indeed. Only Gohan, Goten, and Trunks aren't evil or self-serving when we first meet them. Videl was cool but she was mostly about hyping herself.
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
I hate this stupid trope.

tumblr_mvda5uthtY1srv8pio1_400.gif

I love this movie because they let him redeem himself then kill him.
 

AVtechNICK

Member
Dec 13, 2017
505
I wonder why nobody ever mentioned Tanya from Mortal Kombat.
latest

1) In MK4 she betrayed her own homeland, letting Shinnok and Quan Chi into Edenia.
2) In her arcade ending in MK4 she betrays Lui Kang, luring him into trap.
3) Before MKD (Deception) events she also served to Shao Kahn.
4) In MKD she became the Deadly Alliance's "ambassador".
5) And of course she joined Onaga when Deadly Alliance falled.
6) Of course she betrays Onaga in the MKD arcade ending.
7) And in the new timeline of MKX she also betrayed Reiko.

td;lr: She basically served to every MK's bad guy, constantly scheming against them and bailing them once the bigger threat appears. And still, she survived till timeline reset.
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
2,711
This is a very strangely common trope in Japanese fiction, not just games. It's kind of the sister trope of Defeat Means Friendship. Look no further than Dragon Ball and the likes of Vegeta. "Yeah, he literally destroyed a few entire planets along with every one of their inhabitants, but they were nobody we knew". :)

what you are noticing is a foreign ideology and philosophy that is different from your own.
that is not a bad thing.

japanese games tend to care more about japanese culture than western culture.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,711
Thank you, wise master. /s
now wash 10 windows with only 1 roll of toilet paper while balancing on one toe. only then will you understand.

lol. honestly though, this is actually a slightly important point for me, because i'm actually slightly upset so many people buy foreign games while getting caught up on the cultural differences, dismissing it as strange. like, they expect foreign games to cater to western culture. you see that shit a lot these days. so i almost feel like i need to start defending the fact that foreign cultures exist.

if it bothers you that much, stop buying japanese games, tbh.
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
Sasuke did nothing wrong.

On the real, his body count is pretty low. I don't remember any killing blows, but there were some "kills" in there.

Deidara got salty and blew himself up - I guess that's a body.

Itachi's insides liquified during his fight with Sasuke. +1 Kill for The Sauce?

Danzo blew himself up - Sasuke pushed him to the edge.

Skip forward a couple hundred chapters and that's the extent of Sasuke's "murders." Every opponent between Danzo and the end of Part II were either:

Handled with Sharingan fuckery (Kabuto and Orochimaru)

or

Killed by someone else (Madara got worked by White Zetsu and Kaguya kinda...disappeared).

If you wanna laugh at Kishimoto's writing, you have much more ammo with Obito and Orochimaru's sneaky ass. Lord knows how many randoms Oro sacrificed for his jutsu, but he's allowed to live out his life as that creepy old dude.

Sasuke's biggest offense was going back to Konoha and settling for Sakura's goofy ass.
yeshrug.png

Completely agree. If anything, Orochimaru and Kabuto being free are much more offenders than Sasuke but the two of them are supervised by other shinobi.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
now wash 10 windows with only 1 roll of toilet paper while balancing on one toe. only then will you understand.

lol. honestly though, this is actually a slightly important point for me, because i'm actually slightly upset so many people buy foreign games while getting caught up on the cultural differences, dismissing it as strange. like, they expect foreign games to cater to western culture. you see that shit a lot these days. so i almost feel like i need to start defending the fact that foreign cultures exist.

if it bothers you that much, stop buying japanese games, tbh.

"Different culture" is never a reason not to discuss and / or criticise something. It's not a reason not to criticise clitoral ablation, and it's definitely not a reason not to discuss silly anime tropes. It's one of the most obvious semantic stopsigns, used to make one seem wise when all they're doing is stating the obvious and halting thought.

As a rule of thumb, be very skeptical of any catch-all sentence that is meant to stop discussion on a multitude of topics.
 

Samikaze!!

Member
Oct 29, 2017
189
SF Bay Area
I mean, he eventually gets killed 1/3rd through the war, but this guy. He gets away with so much for so long. He's seen as an influential and iconic part of the era and they glaze over his death like it was just a simple ending instead of poetic justice.
Both in "history" and in the video games, they seem to forget who he really is and it's kind of ridiculous.

  1. Gets "adopted" by local magistrate and betrays the Eunuchs leading the empire by proxy.
  2. Kills his adopted father after Eunuchs fall so he can join Dong Zhou in leading the empire.
  3. Betrays Dong Zhou and ends up in an independent group that won't be allowed to join any army due to their past allegiances. Attempts to kill some of his followers to prove his past allegiances don't matter.
  4. Attempts to join Yuan Shu, who formality helped lead the attacks against Dong Zhou, but is denied after a short stay and so he joins Shu's relative Shao and attacks a third province led by Zhang Yang. Where he narrowly escaped an assassination.
  5. Joins Zhang's Yangs army before leaving again to take over a province and call himself governor.
  6. Get's his ass beat by Cao Cao because he's a fantastic warrior but terrible leader.
  7. Joins Liu Bei's forces despite everyone finally feeling uncomfortable with him around. As Liu Bei leaves for a mission, Lu Bu takes over his castle while he's out. Proceeds to use his new position for some time and allies with different warlords in revenge against Cao Cao and Yuan Shu.
  8. Cao Cao joins Liu Bei in a joint army to take his province back. Lu Bu's poor leadership results in his own men betraying him and and drag his drunk, sleeping self over to Cao Cao to end the battle.
  9. Lu Bu tries last ditch effort to join Cao Cao before seeing Liu Bei becomes the voice of reason, and Lu Bu is put to death.
That's all very heavily paraphrased, but guy was a sleazy scumbag, but a useful short term asset for your army so it seems like people looked the other way, even if it meant he'd eventually kill him.

EDIT : swapped pics because it was waaay too big

200
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,711
"Different culture" is never a reason not to discuss and / or criticise something. It's not a reason not to criticise clitoral ablation, and it's definitely not a reason not to discuss silly anime tropes. It's one of the most obvious semantic stopsigns, used to make one seem wise when all they're doing is stating the obvious and halting thought.

As a rule of thumb, be very skeptical of any catch-all sentence that is meant to stop discussion on a multitude of topics.

I simply said, don't buy the game if you don't like the culture. is it that hard to understand? if you go down the road of "if i buy the game, i have the right to criticize it", and what you are criticizing is some sort of cultural difference, then all you're going to do is make devs not want to release future games in your country. your mindset is the reason questionable censorship happens, and the reason why some devs are afraid of releasing games over here. almost all of it can be contributed to people not able to contexualize a videogame with its country of original development.

i'm against globalization of all forms, so yeah, if you aren't able to connect a game with its country of origin, don't buy the game, or you run the risk of being alienated or offended by something that happens.

These criticisms are extremely case-by-case (i have no idea why you're bringing up genital stuff in a videogaming forum), but i think the "bad guy gets away with thing" trope is not one of the moral imperatives to which we should demand japanese devs market games to western customs. There's higher priorities on that list, I would think.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I simply said, don't buy the game if you don't like the culture. is it that hard to understand? if you go down the road of "if i buy the game, i have the right to criticize it", and what you are criticizing is some sort of cultural difference, then all you're going to do is make devs not want to release future games in your country. your mindset is the reason questionable censorship happens, and the reason why some devs are afraid of releasing games over here. almost all of it can be contributed to people not able to contexualize a videogame with its country of original development.

i'm against globalization of all forms, so yeah, if you aren't able to connect a game with its country of origin, don't buy the game, or you run the risk of being alienated or offended by something that happens.

These criticisms are extremely case-by-case (i have no idea why you're bringing up genital stuff in a videogaming forum), but i think the "bad guy gets away with thing" trope is not one of the moral imperatives to which we should demand japanese devs market games to western customs. There's higher priorities on that list, I would think.

I see the entire point has flown over your head and I have better things to do.
 

Boney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
349
Santiago
Murderess from Xenoblade X

maxresdefault.jpg


She shot another playable character in the back. She sets up ambushes to steal the reward money from her team mates. She engages in blood sport. She's well known for doing these things to the point of being nicknamed frigging Murderess. She's a member of a pseudo military/exploration and survival organization and she's not rotting in the brig as apparently there are no repercussions for these crimes (or murdering rivals, for that matter). Outside of one cut scene, nobody seems to care if you keep inviting her back into your party.
She's the best part of the game though.
 

WrenchNinja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,745
Canada
Sasuke did nothing wrong.

On the real, his body count is pretty low. I don't remember any killing blows, but there were some "kills" in there.

Deidara got salty and blew himself up - I guess that's a body.

Itachi's insides liquified during his fight with Sasuke. +1 Kill for The Sauce?

Danzo blew himself up - Sasuke pushed him to the edge.

Skip forward a couple hundred chapters and that's the extent of Sasuke's "murders." Every opponent between Danzo and the end of Part II were either:

Handled with Sharingan fuckery (Kabuto and Orochimaru)

or

Killed by someone else (Madara got worked by White Zetsu and Kaguya kinda...disappeared).

If you wanna laugh at Kishimoto's writing, you have much more ammo with Obito and Orochimaru's sneaky ass. Lord knows how many randoms Oro sacrificed for his jutsu, but he's allowed to live out his life as that creepy old dude.

Sasuke's biggest offense was going back to Konoha and settling for Sakura's goofy ass.
yeshrug.png
He killed the samurai at the Kage Summit
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,711
I see the entire point has flown over your head and I have better things to do.
Nothing flew over my head Zero. You want the freedom to criticize the differences, I want the freedom to appreciate the fact its different. Two sides of the same coin and it's virtually impossible for both us to be equally satisfied with any solution

Let's agree to disagree, so the thread doesn't get derailed.
 

Deleted member 3208

Oct 25, 2017
11,934
Kerrigan in Brood War. She makes alliances and later betrays everyone, including her old boyfriend. And in the end, the Zerg win the entire conflict and she becomes the new ruler of the Swarm.
 

Snormy

I'll think about it
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,124
Morizora's Forest
Cortana%27s_look_in_Halo_4.jpg


Cortana.
I sort of liked her personality and quips in the first few games but she progressively gets more irritating and intolerable.
She has been lying since the beginning as she chose the Destination for the Pillar of Autumn's jump when escaping Reach but didn't tell any one. She often doesn't explain things fully but is trusted because she is a super AI and has thick plot armor. Just kill her for good and move on!
 
Nov 12, 2017
54
Tales of the Abyss spoilers:
Luke is kind of the reverse of this in that he betrayed the team with good intentions and then gets shit on by every other team member from their ivory hypocritical freaking towers. Everyone completely dogpiles on him even though every other party member is standing on some VERY shaky moral "high ground". It completely pissed me off (and I hated Luke as a character), to the point where I just gave up on the game.

To be fair, its VERY hard to earn the trust of your comrades after letting the enemy use you to kill many people, all because of your immaturity. I felt for Luke during the moments the party kept bagging on him, but the game does a great job in teaching that life lesson, I'll give it that.
It is almost ironic how Tales of the Abyss can nail betrayal and repercussions so well, than to shrug it off in Tales of Xillia.
 

StereoVSN

Member
Nov 1, 2017
13,620
Eastern US
There are numerous examples of that shit. Tales of games are notorious for that. I think that's fine if the developers put that in the game but then they should let the player kill the betrayer off.

That way the folks who believe in "Power of Friendship" can continue on "normal" route and folks who believe that "best traitor is a dead traitor" can go into their route.
 

StereoVSN

Member
Nov 1, 2017
13,620
Eastern US
now wash 10 windows with only 1 roll of toilet paper while balancing on one toe. only then will you understand.

lol. honestly though, this is actually a slightly important point for me, because i'm actually slightly upset so many people buy foreign games while getting caught up on the cultural differences, dismissing it as strange. like, they expect foreign games to cater to western culture. you see that shit a lot these days. so i almost feel like i need to start defending the fact that foreign cultures exist.

if it bothers you that much, stop buying japanese games, tbh.
Would you say you are an expert in Japanese culture by chance and the posters here shot themselves in the foot?

Crap trope is a crap trope.

Edit: Most of the villain cast of Naruto should have been killed off for their crimes. Oro, Kabuto, etc... in comparison Sasuke isn't even close on that level.
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
2,711
Edit: Most of the villain cast of Naruto should have been liked for their crimes. Oro, Kabuto, etc... in comparison Sasuke isn't even close on that level.
MUzVh05.jpg

here you go

back on topic:
catherine_1252011_12.jpg

"You admitted to killing my dad, you admitted to killing almost everyone I see on TV, but i'm going to give you money so I can win a bet on a wrestling match"

Optionally:
"you killed my dad and steve and everyone else but i'll forgive if you let me meet ?atherine again pls she's very important to me pls"
 

mas8705

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,497
But... Kain was brainwashed... Yeah, he had resentment against Cecil at times for getting Rosa, but actually lashing out against them wasn't something he did on his own...

*Hugs copy of FF4 quietly*
 

ZangBa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,040
I mean, he eventually gets killed 1/3rd through the war, but this guy. He gets away with so much for so long. He's seen as an influential and iconic part of the era and they glaze over his death like it was just a simple ending instead of poetic justice.
Both in "history" and in the video games, they seem to forget who he really is and it's kind of ridiculous.

  1. Gets "adopted" by local magistrate and betrays the Eunuchs leading the empire by proxy.
  2. Kills his adopted father after Eunuchs fall so he can join Dong Zhou in leading the empire.
  3. Betrays Dong Zhou and ends up in an independent group that won't be allowed to join any army due to their past allegiances. Attempts to kill some of his followers to prove his past allegiances don't matter.
  4. Attempts to join Yuan Shu, who formality helped lead the attacks against Dong Zhou, but is denied after a short stay and so he joins Shu's relative Shao and attacks a third province led by Zhang Yang. Where he narrowly escaped an assassination.
  5. Joins Zhang's Yangs army before leaving again to take over a province and call himself governor.
  6. Get's his ass beat by Cao Cao because he's a fantastic warrior but terrible leader.
  7. Joins Liu Bei's forces despite everyone finally feeling uncomfortable with him around. As Liu Bei leaves for a mission, Lu Bu takes over his castle while he's out. Proceeds to use his new position for some time and allies with different warlords in revenge against Cao Cao and Yuan Shu.
  8. Cao Cao joins Liu Bei in a joint army to take his province back. Lu Bu's poor leadership results in his own men betraying him and and drag his drunk, sleeping self over to Cao Cao to end the battle.
  9. Lu Bu tries last ditch effort to join Cao Cao before seeing Liu Bei becomes the voice of reason, and Lu Bu is put to death.
That's all very heavily paraphrased, but guy was a sleazy scumbag, but a useful short term asset for your army so it seems like people looked the other way, even if it meant he'd eventually kill him.

EDIT : swapped pics because it was waaay too big

200
I was pretty annoyed with how they handled his death in his story mode, slightly trying to redeem his character by the end of it instead of showing how pathetic he really was. I was more annoyed with how Chen Gong was handled though. What the hell, Koei?
 

Stardestroyer

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,819
I simply said, don't buy the game if you don't like the culture. is it that hard to understand? if you go down the road of "if i buy the game, i have the right to criticize it", and what you are criticizing is some sort of cultural difference, then all you're going to do is make devs not want to release future games in your country. your mindset is the reason questionable censorship happens, and the reason why some devs are afraid of releasing games over here. almost all of it can be contributed to people not able to contexualize a videogame with its country of original development.

i'm against globalization of all forms, so yeah, if you aren't able to connect a game with its country of origin, don't buy the game, or you run the risk of being alienated or offended by something that happens.

These criticisms are extremely case-by-case (i have no idea why you're bringing up genital stuff in a videogaming forum), but i think the "bad guy gets away with thing" trope is not one of the moral imperatives to which we should demand japanese devs market games to western customs. There's higher priorities on that list, I would think.

He is saying criticism is part of life get over it. Cultures are not immune to criticism. That should be a very easy concept.

Yes, Japanese devs have better higher prorities we can see that in the mediocre games, stories and characters.
 

stone616

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,429
SPOILERS FOR Tales of Xillia

As much as i like him and think he is one of the more interesting cast members - i have to put Alvin from Tales of Xillia on this one. The fact that he betrays his other party members constantly and yet they allow him to join back everytime is kinda baffling to me - though their opinion of him isn't the highest.

2595184-2460653905-Alvin.png
If there's a TV Trope page for this sort of thing he should be the one it's named after.
 

alpha

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,012
Tales of the Abyss spoilers:
Luke is kind of the reverse of this in that he betrayed the team with good intentions and then gets shit on by every other team member from their ivory hypocritical freaking towers. Everyone completely dogpiles on him even though every other party member is standing on some VERY shaky moral "high ground". It completely pissed me off (and I hated Luke as a character), to the point where I just gave up on the game.

Especially that scumfuck Anise, who actually IS betraying you and gets none of the backlash Luke got for simply being too trusting of a guy he thought of like a father figure.

If this was Vesperia, Yuri would have had Tear, Guy, Natalia AND Jade's collective asses on pikes for letting that shit slide after they trashed Luke.
 

Samikaze!!

Member
Oct 29, 2017
189
SF Bay Area
I was pretty annoyed with how they handled his death in his story mode, slightly trying to redeem his character by the end of it instead of showing how pathetic he really was. I was more annoyed with how Chen Gong was handled though. What the hell, Koei?

Yeah I don't know how you can redeem Lu Bu.
I don't recall much of how they portrayed Chen Gong in the games. Didn't they just make him equally conniving and decietful? Like he allows Diao Chan to use Lu Bu or something?

Also: wow my typos and sloppy writing in my original post. Gotta stop using the page at work lol.
 

ZangBa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,040
Yeah I don't know how you can redeem Lu Bu.
I don't recall much of how they portrayed Chen Gong in the games. Didn't they just make him equally conniving and decietful? Like he allows Diao Chan to use Lu Bu or something?

Also: wow my typos and sloppy writing in my original post. Gotta stop using the page at work lol.

Hmm, well honestly I just did that a couple days ago and haven't finished the hypothetical route for his story yet so I didn't see that scene. His personality is just oddly flamboyant and strange, and his death really didn't match up with the novel at all, which is really sad because it was one of my favorite parts of the book. Chen Gong is a great character and I just feel like they didn't utilize him properly at all, especially in regards to Cao Cao.

Now something unrelated to that, Lu Bu does get strangled to death so he kind of got what was coming, but the worst betrayal that doesn't really have a punishment is Liu Chan. He basically betrayed his entire kingdom everytime Huang Hao told him to and eventually surrendered. His reward at the end of everything is peacefully living out his days after all the people who fought for him and their kingdom sacrificed themselves. The games try real hard to paint him in a positive light when he really deserves ridicule. Sun Hao should get his due, too.
 

Luigi87

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,105
Well... I have nothing to contribute, as the OP covered exactly who I thinking of, lol
 

Astral

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
28,115
Tales of the Abyss spoilers:
Luke is kind of the reverse of this in that he betrayed the team with good intentions and then gets shit on by every other team member from their ivory hypocritical freaking towers. Everyone completely dogpiles on him even though every other party member is standing on some VERY shaky moral "high ground". It completely pissed me off (and I hated Luke as a character), to the point where I just gave up on the game.

Oh shit I forgot about this. It was one of the best parts of the game. The party pissed me off so much.
 

Terraforce

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
18,917
Naruto Shipuuden CC2 games, but to be fair its based on the manga...

Still. Sasuke kills so many innocent people, attacks the village and at the end of the series "Well, he helped against the big bad boss. Lets forgive him for killing elderly, adults and children before. No big deal!"
Chairmanchuck Define "so many" for me. Do you mean so many bad guys? Because believe it or not, he kills far more bad guys than good people. As for the good, the best you can argue is a handful of Samurai, which may or may not have died from him. He never kills the elderly nor any children.
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
11,512
Bandung Indonesia
Anise in Tales (lol yes another Tales) of the Abyss annoyed me so much.

When Luke was perceived to be betraying the group everyone (including her) was like WTFLUKE YOUARSEHOLELUKE YOUSTUPIDLUKE DIELUKE but then later she betrayed the group for real and everyone including her was all D'AWWWWWWWWW OKAY FORGIVING TIMEEE.

Blergh.

But then again the characters in Abyss were all Blergh material.