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riq

Member
Feb 21, 2019
1,687
controversial opinion time

I was ok with dexit. it made the competitive metagame interesting. uber tier mons suck tho
Limiting metagame eligible mons can be done without nuking them from the game, though.
I won't ever be ok with the dex cut and really hope they either:
A) Backpedal completely from that.
B) Only try to pull this off again if the end results are revolutionary rather than iterative.
 

Serebii

Serebii.net Webmaster
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
13,118
Do note that it's quite clear that the dex cut was not done on a whim or just because they felt it was time.

Think about game development. Think about the number of completely different models there are (Over 1100). Think about the amount of animations there are for each Pokémon.

Think about what happens when you need to add just one feature that requires say 4 new animations per species. How many animations will that require?

Think about what would happen should say the skeletal structure for the animations stops working on transfer to new device/engine. Think about having to reimplant the skeleton and have to bug test and fix every single animation, possibly having to re-record it. Think about how long all this would take, even with a staff of over 100 animators
 
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Metroidvania

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,768
Do note that it's quite clear that the dex cut was not done on a whim or just because they felt it was time.

I don't know if their stated reason of being some combination of 'balance' (which, has already been pointed out, is something they could have accomplished with bans) and/or perpetually having to re-update models really is 'clear', given that they since started adding pokemon back in with the DLC - something they previously had said wouldn't happen?

At least, in the context of it being a 'permanent' scenario/new norm.
 

Serebii

Serebii.net Webmaster
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
13,118
I don't know if their stated reason of being some combination of 'balance' (which, has already been pointed out, is something they could have accomplished with bans) and/or perpetually having to re-update models really is 'clear', given that they since started adding pokemon back in with the DLC - something they previously had said wouldn't happen?
First balance wasn't their stated reason. They said when thinking which Pokémon to add back they needed to consider balance. That doesn't mean they dropped for balance

They also never said they wouldn't add Pokémon back in DLC. They actually

For reasons, I updated my prior post:

Think about game development. Think about the number of completely different models there are (Over 1100). Think about the amount of animations there are for each Pokémon.

Think about what happens when you need to add just one feature that requires say 4 new animations per species. How many animations will that require?

Think about what would happen should say the skeletal structure for the animations stops working on transfer to new device/engine. Think about having to reimplant the skeleton and have to bug test and fix every single animation, possibly having to re-record it. Think about how long all this would take, even with a staff of over 100 animators

Everyone I know who is involved with game development or even understands the complexities of it gets it. Every game developer I spoke to in my investigation of the possible reasons behind it (because they never actually said why it happened) said they were surprised that it didn't happen sooner.

Every other monster franchise, including Digimon (which people compared SWSH to, saying Cybersleuth is better when it only had 240 of the 1400 Digimon) routinely rotates their monsters, and it's not just due to whims.

Pokémon is in a unique position of backwards compatibility of nearly 20 years worth of games and that's why it stings, but it'll forever be a growing problem and people need to realise it.

As much as I also hated it happening, I get it happening and I can see it happening again, and people will still not forgive because, as you unfortunatelly fell to, there's so much misinformation around spread by youtubers and people on social media who lack the knowledge and understanding of what has happened. I had one try to correct a translation I had done professionally using Google Translate to make his point. Don't trust the misinformation that spread.
 

Nilou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,715
controversial opinion time

I was ok with dexit. it made the competitive metagame interesting. uber tier mons suck tho

I was split on the situation. What I wish more Pokemon games did was be like Black and White where during the initial story/adventure before the elite 4 are all the pokemon you encounter are new gen Pokemon only. After beating the elite 4, all the area's you explores an the new ones now available to you have a mix of new Pokemon and previous gen Pokemon.
 

Metroidvania

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,768
They also never said they wouldn't add Pokémon back in DLC.

....They definitely did, at one point in time.

We currently have no plans to make the Pokemon that are missing from the Galar Pokedex available in-game.

Inferring a negative obviously isn't perfect, but this Inside Gamer quote makes zero mention of the possibility of having any sort of return in Sw/Sh DLC, and instead goes on to try and pivot to trying to sell Home subscriptions.

(To be fair, IIRC there is some confusion whether this was referring to any return at all, or the national dex specifically, but the wording on the answer implies the former)

Obviously things changed since that quote - due to either fan demand, having more time to work on various mons' to get them up to snuff, or whatever...and I suppose you could weasel your way out by saying that the DLC simply 'expanded' the galar dex.

Think about how long all this would take, even with a staff of over 100 animators

Obviously they don't 'have' to do hire/retain that many people (especially considering the games sell like crazy no matter what, at least so far), but let's not pretend that TPC isn't one of, if not currently, the richest media companies in the world, and could theoretically do so.

Regardless, I agree that it's definitely likely to happen again at some point - though hopefully a ways down the line, and with better variety and less gen-1 pandering/retention.

But we'll see what happens with D/P, and if not there, in Gen 9.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
Everyone I know who is involved with game development or even understands the complexities of it gets it.

You can understand the complexities of the move and still not like why the move was done.
This was particularly souring because the entire point of the move to models in XY was to futureproof such that the amount of work on animations from models in Gens VI and VII, would be minimized vs. having to do every single remodel, reanimation, etc. This is why people were okay with the performance shitting the bed at times in the 3DS games, because the idea was that somewhere down the road, the games would ultimately come out of it much better. Furthermore, Game Freak invited scrutiny by saying that (and I'm aware this is translated, so I take a portion of it with some grain of salt):
Considering the quality of graphics in Pokémon Sword and Shield, it certainly would require considerable time to do that kind of work for every Pokémon.
Masuda:
I was personally sad about this decision. Of course, had it been feasible, I would have liked to make it possible to bring every Pokémon into the game. However, this was a choice we needed to make sooner or later. In the end, we had to choose quality.
Ohmori: Masuda and I discussed this issue a great deal. Even for Pokémon Sun and Moon, it was quite a difficult situation (to make it possible to bring every Pokémon into the game). Now that we are moving to the Nintendo Switch and remaking the models from scratch, we had to make some kind of choice. That said, despite the limitation on the Pokémon that can be brought into the game, the game's wild areas, story and other content is quite rich. I believe that players will understand that when they play the game.
The scrutiny came from the fact that the graphics weren't exactly up to par for the amount of Pokemon that were cut from the game. I've said it time and time again, if Game Freak had simply left it at saying "too much Pokemon", people would still be mad but they wouldn't go off and scrutinize every single pixel to make them look like fools. So I do think Game Freak deserves some criticism if only because their claims did not measure up to reality. If not this translation, then it was the USGamer interview where Masuda said:
"There are a couple of different parts to the thinking behind it, but really the biggest reason for it is just the sheer number of Pokémon. We already have well over 800 Pokémon species, and there's going to be more added in these games. And now that they're on the Nintendo Switch, we're creating it with much higher fidelity with higher quality animations. But even more than that, it's coming down to the battle system. We're making sure we can keep everything balanced and give all the Pokémon that appear in the games a chance to shine."
Additionally, I do think this is a symptom of a problem with the Pokemon franchise. When iterating the games, Game Freak never really had the foresight to think about rotating out a roster of Pokemon per game (even though the franchise pattern basically writes itself: feature the new region's Pokemon and select a rotation of returning Pokemon and leave it at that without enabling return of ALL Pokemon). The reason why Digimon gets away with the rotation is because they never stuck with the growing roster for every game. Not to mention, Digimon tends to do a great job at the amount of Digimon added based on nostalgia and newer At the same time, Digimon's battle system is a lot simpler than Pokemon's, so there's less focus on the series.
 

Serebii

Serebii.net Webmaster
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
13,118
....They definitely did, at one point in time.



Inferring a negative obviously isn't perfect, but this Inside Gamer quote makes zero mention of the possibility of having any sort of return in Sw/Sh DLC, and instead goes on to try and pivot to trying to sell Home subscriptions.

(To be fair, IIRC there is some confusion whether this was referring to any return at all, or the national dex specifically, but the wording on the answer implies the former)

Obviously things changed since that quote - due to either fan demand, having more time to work on various mons' to get them up to snuff, or whatever...and I suppose you could weasel your way out by saying that the DLC simply 'expanded' the galar dex.

That quote is the usual PR quote of "nothing to announce at this time" when they're not ready to announce things. It's not indicative of them not having planned it or anything like that. Heck the DLC was likely starting development at that point.


Obviously they don't 'have' to do hire/retain that many people (especially considering the games sell like crazy no matter what, at least so far), but let's not pretend that TPC isn't one of, if not currently, the richest media companies in the world, and could theoretically do so.

Regardless, I agree that it's definitely likely to happen again at some point - though hopefully a ways down the line, and with better variety and less gen-1 pandering/retention.

But we'll see what happens with D/P, and if not there, in Gen 9.

Right but you also need to factor in

A) Are there enough animators of the needed competency available in the greater Tokyo area at this time
B) It will take time to acclimatise them into the company, plus the extra time for management
C) It still takes time

It's not something you can just throw money at to solve, contrary to what people believe, and even then it gets to a point of diminishing returns
 

Giga Man

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,218
I was split on the situation. What I wish more Pokemon games did was be like Black and White where during the initial story/adventure before the elite 4 are all the pokemon you encounter are new gen Pokemon only. After beating the elite 4, all the area's you explores an the new ones now available to you have a mix of new Pokemon and previous gen Pokemon.
I've been saying this for a long time. Maybe by Gen 10 we'll get another Black/White-style "reboot." (And that will also be the gen for the B/W remakes!)
 

jankuza

Member
Jan 13, 2021
279
I'm really curious if they will continue the 2 Year Cycle for a Pokemon Game with DLC Support they started with Swish or if we will see Gen. 9 in 2022.

I really enjoyed the Swish DLC and the fact that Swish is not immediately "replaced" one year after it released. It would also benefit GameFreak with more Time for Development, because they don't have to push out a new Game every Year.

A DLC Pass for D/P Remake could bring back Platinum Features back to the Game.

-Part 1: Distortion World
-Part 2: Battle Frontier

If the Main Game doesn't bring back the last 200 missing Pokemon, because they use the Platinum Dex (don't know how many Pokemon in there aren't currently avalible in Swish) the DLC could bring the last ones back.
 
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Serebii

Serebii.net Webmaster
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
13,118
You can understand the complexities of the move and still not like why the move was done.
This was particularly souring because the entire point of the move to models in XY was to futureproof such that the amount of work on animations from models in Gens VI and VII, would be minimized vs. having to do every single remodel, reanimation, etc. This is why people were okay with the performance shitting the bed at times in the 3DS games, because the idea was that somewhere down the road, the games would ultimately come out of it much better. Furthermore, Game Freak invited scrutiny by saying that (and I'm aware this is translated, so I take a portion of it with some grain of salt):

The scrutiny came from the fact that the graphics weren't exactly up to par for the amount of Pokemon that were cut from the game. I've said it time and time again, if Game Freak had simply left it at saying "too much Pokemon", people would still be mad but they wouldn't go off and scrutinize every single pixel to make them look like fools. So I do think Game Freak deserves some criticism if only because their claims did not measure up to reality. If not this translation, then it was the USGamer interview where Masuda said:

Additionally, I do think this is a symptom of a problem with the Pokemon franchise. When iterating the games, Game Freak never really had the foresight to think about rotating out a roster of Pokemon per game (even though the franchise pattern basically writes itself: feature the new region's Pokemon and select a rotation of returning Pokemon and leave it at that without enabling return of ALL Pokemon). The reason why Digimon gets away with the rotation is because they never stuck with the growing roster for every game. Not to mention, Digimon tends to do a great job at the amount of Digimon added based on nostalgia and newer At the same time, Digimon's battle system is a lot simpler than Pokemon's, so there's less focus on the series.
I literally said in my post that I understand it but don't like it?

Also, futureproof does not mean it's immune from issues. I don't see why people still keep treating that statement as if it means they are.
 
Feb 26, 2019
4,273
Tijuana
I would be more ok with the Dex cut if there was a base game / application, aka, Pokémon HOME, where we could have all the Pokémon with the highest quality animations/models, even if there's no gameplay at all. Just like a collection display kinda game, like the Pokédex 3D. Currently, the Pokémon on the mobile application suck with their weird textures and lighting, and the Switch version has no 3D models.

Cut as many Pokémon as you want from mainline games (if it's SO impossible to maintain) but then at least let us have one place where we can contemplate every single Pokémon in their glorious form.
 

Serebii

Serebii.net Webmaster
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
13,118
I would be more ok with the Dex cut if there was a base game / application, aka, Pokémon HOME, where we could have all the Pokémon with the highest quality animations/models, even if there's no gameplay at all. Just like a collection display kinda game, like the Pokédex 3D. Currently, the Pokémon on the mobile application suck with their weird textures and lighting, and the Switch version has no 3D models.

Cut as many Pokémon as you want from mainline games (if it's SO impossible to maintain) but then at least let us have one place where we can contemplate every single Pokémon in their glorious form.
The thing is, look at it like this like you said.

Pokémon HOME on mobile has all the models
Pokémon HOME on Switch doesn't
Pokémon Sword & Shield had to cull and doesn't have all the Pokémon.

The question is why does HOME not have it? That's what people don't think about it and it's simple: The same reason the dex cull happened. Something clearly happened when transferring the models/animations to Switch. If they could have all the models in HOME on Switch then they could have all the models in SWSH.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
I literally said in my post that I understand it but don't like it?

Also, futureproof does not mean it's immune from issues. I don't see why people still keep treating that statement as if it means they are.

???

I never said nor implied that it was immune from issues, all I said was that the amount of work would be minimized as a result of futureproofing (ergo implying that there would still be work but to a much lesser extent than redoing everything, and leaving the chance of unforeseen circumstances happening).

I would be more ok with the Dex cut if there was a base game / application, aka, Pokémon HOME, where we could have all the Pokémon with the highest quality animations/models, even if there's no gameplay at all. Just like a collection display kinda game, like the Pokédex 3D. Currently, the Pokémon on the mobile application suck with their weird textures and lighting, and the Switch version has no 3D models.

Cut as many Pokémon as you want from mainline games (if it's SO impossible to maintain) but then at least let us have one place where we can contemplate every single Pokémon in their glorious form.

The problem with that is there's no real value for the player when subscribing to HOME beyond storage. A glorified Pokedex 3D for 16 dollars a year (ofc depending on if you want it annually or if you're into the basic free plan) sounds like a gigantic "fuck you"
 

Serebii

Serebii.net Webmaster
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
13,118
I never said nor implied that it was immune from issues, all I said was that the amount of work would be minimized as a result of futureproofing (ergo implying that there would still be work but to a much lesser extent than redoing everything, and leaving the chance of unforeseen circumstances happening).
But what I'm saying is that futureproofing is irrelevant. It means they could feasibly use the same models for longer, typically using diffeent textures depending on the game's aesthetic. However, if something monumentally bad happens, it doesn't matter how well they futureproofed, they still may have to redo things.

People have so often used the crutch of "but they said they're futureproof" to ignore any possibility of what could happen.
 
Feb 26, 2019
4,273
Tijuana
I'm really curious if they will continue the 2 Year Cycle for a Pokemon Game with DLC Support they started with Swish or we will see Gen. 9 in 2022.

I really enjoyed the Swish DLC and the fact that Swish is not immediately "replaced" one year after it released. It would also benefit GameFreak with more Time for Development, because they don't have to push out a new Game every Year.

A DLC Pass for D/P Remake could bring back Platinum Features back to the Game.

-Part 1: Distortion World
-Part 2: Battle Frontier

If the Main Game doesn't bring back the last 200 missing Pokemon, because they use the Platinum Dex (don't know how many Pokemon in there aren't currently avalible in Swish) the DLC could bring the last ones back.

I liked that I was able to play the two DLC's with a new team of Pokémon I already owned. For example I used Magearna, a shiny Palossand from Ultra Moon, my shiny Talonflame from Moon, etc.

Just being picky, and has nothing to do with the games themselves, as a collector of the physical books like Pokédexes and strategy guides, it sucks that they didn't release a book for the DLC's with the updated Pokédex.
 
Feb 26, 2019
4,273
Tijuana
The thing is, look at it like this like you said.

Pokémon HOME on mobile has all the models
Pokémon HOME on Switch doesn't
Pokémon Sword & Shield had to cull and doesn't have all the Pokémon.

The question is why does HOME not have it? That's what people don't think about it and it's simple: The same reason the dex cull happened. Something clearly happened when transferring the models/animations to Switch. If they could have all the models in HOME on Switch then they could have all the models in SWSH.

Yeah, it makes sense.

I just wonder, if there was no technical issue, whether because of the technology itself or time constraints, do you think they would always keep bringing every single Pokémon to every new game?

If Sinnoh remakes (if they're the next games to be released) don't include every Pokémon from SwSh, people will go nuts, because what would be preventing them from including them again if they're on the same system?

I also think about the future, I know we can't foresee things now, but when they finally manage to get every Pokémon on the Switch, will it be as difficult to transition them into the next generation console as it was from 3DS to Switch, or have they done things more "future-proof" this time around? Is it even possible? Do you think they really care about not having another "dex cut" situation in the future, or they're perhaps less worried about it now, because they already know they can get along with it if needed?

(I know YOU don't have those answers, I'm just thinking out loud lol)
 

Serebii

Serebii.net Webmaster
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
13,118
Yeah, it makes sense.

I just wonder, if there was no technical issue, whether because of the technology itself or time constraints, do you think they would always keep bringing every single Pokémon to every new game?

If Sinnoh remakes (if they're the next games to be released) don't include every Pokémon from SwSh, people will go nuts, because what would be preventing them from including them again if they're on the same system?

I also think about the future, I know we can't foresee things now, but when they finally manage to get every Pokémon on the Switch, will it be as difficult to transition them into the next generation console as it was from 3DS to Switch, or have they done things more "future-proof" this time around? Is it even possible? Do you think they really care about not having another "dex cut" situation in the future, or they're perhaps less worried about it now, because they already know they can get along with it if needed?

(I know YOU don't have those answers, I'm just thinking out loud lol)
I truly believe SWSH was intended to have all the Pokémon originally. However, an issue would have happened eventually down the line in the future or they'd come to the conclusion it's holding them back

It's really hard to say. You can't predict things going wrong with new engines or new devices. You have to think and hope that it will work. Hopefully they go with the view of "plan for the worst but if it turns out fine then yay"

I would not be surprised one iota if with the first gen on the Switch successor ends up having a cull again

Also I expect whatever comes this year, if anything, to have the full available dex from SWSH plus whatever's added with it, and then a patch for SWSH with what's added in it and full connectivity capabilities between the two.
 

Yukiko

Member
Feb 21, 2019
904
Spain
controversial opinion time

I was ok with dexit. it made the competitive metagame interesting. uber tier mons suck tho

I mean, it was fine, but 9 months later they just added back the good mons (which isn't either a good or bad thing, it is what it is).

But as always, with any given metagame, there are always some pokémon that are better than others. Sure, Landorus-T, Tapu Fini and so on were gone for a while, but that just let other mons like Togekiss, Dragapult and Excadrill shine.
 

Danby

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 7, 2020
3,014
I've been saying this for a long time. Maybe by Gen 10 we'll get another Black/White-style "reboot." (And that will also be the gen for the B/W remakes!)
That gen was bolstered by having enough new pokemon to fill the area. This is unfortunately something GF is shying away from right now.
 

Pokemaniac

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,944
First balance wasn't their stated reason. They said when thinking which Pokémon to add back they needed to consider balance. That doesn't mean they dropped for balance
That is not correct:
https://www.usgamer.net/articles/pokemon-sword-and-shield-interview said:
Junichi Masuda, Producer: There are a couple of different parts to the thinking behind it, but really the biggest reason for it is just the sheer number of Pokemon. We already have well over 800 Pokemon species, and there's going to be more added in these games. And now that they're on the Nintendo Switch, we're creating it with much higher fidelity with higher quality animations. But even more than that, it's coming down to the battle system. We're making sure we can keep everything balanced and give all the Pokemon that appear in the games a chance to shine.


We knew at some point we weren't going to be able to indefinitely keep supporting all of the Pokemon, and we just found that Sword and Shield would probably be a good point to go back and reevaluate what would be the best selection of Pokemon that appeal to the widest audience while keeping into consideration the balance of the battle system. It isn't just going to be all-new Pokemon in the Galar region Pokedex; there's still going to be a lot of favorites that fans will be able to bring over that they've adventured with previously. But yeah, it was pretty much just balancing and getting this optimal selection of Pokemon for the adventure we wanted to provide.
Now, it's certainly not the only reason they gave, but that only goes to emphasize how messy the communication around this was, and how much that unnecessarily exacerbated the situation.
 

Serebii

Serebii.net Webmaster
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
13,118
That is not correct:

Now, it's certainly not the only reason they gave, but that only goes to emphasize how messy the communication around this was, and how much that unnecessarily exacerbated the situation.
That reads to me like they are saying they are considering balance for the Pokémon bringing back not that they dropped for balance.

Look, you know who I am. Would I really be saying this stuff without reason to, without having checked things?
 

Yukiko

Member
Feb 21, 2019
904
Spain
That is not correct:

Now, it's certainly not the only reason they gave, but that only goes to emphasize how messy the communication around this was, and how much that unnecessarily exacerbated the situation.

From how I understand that quote, it just reads as "Since not every mon is making it in, we'll be careful with which ones we actually add".
 

Zalman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,896
"Dexit" would have happened sooner or later regardless of the developers in charge. It's just not sustainable to keep all that baggage in the long run.
 

Pokemaniac

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,944
That reads to me like they are saying they are considering balance for the Pokémon bringing back not that they dropped for balance.

Look, you know who I am. Would I really be saying this stuff without reason to, without having checked things?
For some additional context, here is the question that was in response to:
https://www.usgamer.net/articles/pokemon-sword-and-shield-interview said:
Looking at some news that came out yesterday, there are some limitations on the Pokemon Bank. Only the Galar region Pokedex is only going to be accessible. Can you walk me through why that decision was made, and why you think it's important to have that limitation?

And "balance" is the thing that he keeps bringing to the forefront in his answer. He literally is saying that that's an even more important factor than "higher fidelity with higher quality animations".
 

Nilou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,715
I've been saying this for a long time. Maybe by Gen 10 we'll get another Black/White-style "reboot." (And that will also be the gen for the B/W remakes!)

I do hope it does return one day. While Gen 5 does have issues, Black and White were the closest the series has personally felt towards a fresh start since the originals.
 

Razmos

Unshakeable One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,890
I'd just like a game without gen 1 being shoved in my face all the time lol
 

LinkStrikesBack

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,351
I'd just like a game without gen 1 being shoved in my face all the time lol

I don't think I've ever been triggered quite so hard by something that should be relatively innocuous like those posters saying "The three most popular pokemon in Galar!" and it all being Kanto pokemon. Talk about shitting on your own work.
 

Razmos

Unshakeable One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,890
I don't think I've ever been triggered quite so hard by something that should be relatively innocuous like those posters saying "The three most popular pokemon in Galar!" and it all being Kanto pokemon. Talk about shitting on your own work.
Right? I thought the Galar pokemon were the strongest batch in generations and yet they were still second fiddle to Gen 1 pokemon. Leon having a Gigantamax Charizard is just so annoying, and so many gen 1 pokemon got Gigantamax forms.

Like did we really need a Gigantamax Machamp or Lapras and yet they couldn't give us a Gigantamax Vespiquen when there is a literal story event in the DLC that requires you to fight a dynamaxed one, it's so dumb
 

Timppis

Banned
Apr 27, 2018
2,857
Right? I thought the Galar pokemon were the strongest batch in generations and yet they were still second fiddle to Gen 1 pokemon. Leon having a Gigantamax Charizard is just so annoying, and so many gen 1 pokemon got Gigantamax forms.

Like did we really need a Gigantamax Machamp or Lapras and yet they couldn't give us a Gigantamax Vespiquen when there is a literal story event in the DLC that requires you to fight a dynamaxed one, it's so dumb
Those things are only bad if you are not genwunner like myself and MANY MANY MANY others.

We need our daily dose of charizard like americans need cheetos and mountain dew.

But how they did my boy squirtle shade like that in SwSh. That's unexcusable.
 

Charbox

Member
May 21, 2018
267
I'd be stoked for a Deoxys style episode from ORAS used for Giratina and a revamped Distortion world would be really cool.

Hoping the EXP share stuff goes and hopefully Sinnoh is expanded rather than dumbed down from the previous games. The graphics aren't a huge deal breaker for me I just hope it's still as challenging as what the originals could be.
 

Serebii

Serebii.net Webmaster
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
13,118
That gen was bolstered by having enough new pokemon to fill the area. This is unfortunately something GF is shying away from right now.
The thing that's different from then and now is the amount of work that is required to make a Pokémon

Back then you'd conceptualise, do the stats and moveset, make a sprite and you're done

Now you need to conceptualise, do the stats and moveset, make the model, make 12+ animations for the Pokémon, test the animations, fix the animations. Thus there's a lot more work going into the creation of a Pokémon now than back then. That's almost certainly why we've had less than the usual amount of Pokémon per generation, and that's with the last two adding more as time goes on:

2D Generations
Gen 1: 151
Gen 2: 100
Gen 3: 135
Gen 4: 107
Gen 5: 156

3D Generations
Gen 6: 72
Gen 7: 86
Gen etc.: 2
Gen 8: 89 (at present)

So I am unsure if we'll ever get a BW like scenario unless they truly cut all other Pokémon just for that game.

Is anyone able to show me where the confirmation is other than that tweet?
There is none. They made a tweet and newspost confirming it, then used the subdomain as evidence but it has been determined the subdomain is their proof. Their original article spoke about something called Pokémon Legends, and we found a subdomain from the same time as the diamondpearl one of legends.pokemon.com, which they then posted about as if it was confirming what they said.
 
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unicornKnight

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,170
Athens, Greece
That quote is the usual PR quote of "nothing to announce at this time" when they're not ready to announce things. It's not indicative of them not having planned it or anything like that. Heck the DLC was likely starting development at that point.
Still can't believe people don't get this.

"We have no plans for a new Switch"
*Boom, here's Switch Lite*
"THEY LIED TO US" (no they didn't)
 

Pokemaniac

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,944
I truly believe SWSH was intended to have all the Pokémon originally. However, an issue would have happened eventually down the line in the future or they'd come to the conclusion it's holding them back

It's really hard to say. You can't predict things going wrong with new engines or new devices. You have to think and hope that it will work. Hopefully they go with the view of "plan for the worst but if it turns out fine then yay"

I would not be surprised one iota if with the first gen on the Switch successor ends up having a cull again

Also I expect whatever comes this year, if anything, to have the full available dex from SWSH plus whatever's added with it, and then a patch for SWSH with what's added in it and full connectivity capabilities between the two.
One would hope that they're making changes to their development process that will end up mitigating this sort of risk in the future, because the number of Pokémon wasn't the only aspect of Sword and Shield that was very undercooked.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
One would hope that they're making changes to their development process that will end up mitigating this sort of risk in the future, because the number of Pokémon wasn't the only aspect of Sword and Shield that was very undercooked.
I suspect Gen 9 will see a major improvement to their tools with the assistance of Nintendo and/or HAL. becoming building mates doesn't seem like a coincidence.
 

t67443

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,789
Part of the issue I have with the excuse that they couldn't update all the Pokémon is with the regional variants. Some of those were absolutely just different skins on models but others were more drastic changes. I did like the regional variants but not being able to bring in the Pokémon I've enjoyed the last 25 years just sorta sucked. Especially when the franchise was set up with transferring Pokémon from game to game as a feature.

At this point I wouldn't mind if they had a B team create a competition Pokémon game that always have every Pokémon in it and lower quality models and appearance and then a separate one that focuses more on the exploration and gym competition. Like bring back Pokémon coliseum and make that the back bone of competitive play.
 

KillstealWolf

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
16,071
I wonder why "dexit" is even called that when the national dex was scrapped in Gen 7 already, the name doesn't make much sense.

Pretty much because it was happening in the UK Based region which had Brexit discussions occurring at the exact same time. The funny play on words pretty much made it the quick go-to to use for it.

There is the stuff needing more time to make everything, but The Pokemon Company still keeps to a very strict 3 year cycle for their new games ever since the 3D Generation has started,

2013: Pokemon X and Y (New Gen)
2014: Pokemon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire
2015: No major releases
2016: Pokemon Sun and Moon (New Gen)
2017: Pokemon Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon
2018: Pokemon Let's Go Pikachu and Eevee
2019: Pokemon Sword and Shield (New Gen)
2020: Pokemon Sword and Shield DLC 1+2: Isle of Armour and Crown Tundra

I honestly wouldn't mind a 4 year gap to be honest between new games especially as development times for HD Software increases. But there's been nothing to indicate they are changing the pattern. Creating new DLC Areas don't seem they would require any less work than the changes Ultra Sun and Moon had, or the straight up Gap Year they took for 2015.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
Now you need to conceptualise, do the stats and moveset, make the model, make 12+ animations for the Pokémon, test the animations, fix the animations. Thus there's a lot more work going into the creation of a Pokémon now than back then. That's almost certainly why we've had less than the usual amount of Pokémon per generation, and that's with the last two adding more as time goes on:

Yeah, but they have way more staff now and unless they're using some specialized model format (which isn't the case as people have ripped the model data on numerous occasions). animation is the perfect task for outsourcing/contracting out. Technically they already do that considering Creatures role in all this, but I honestly don't think it's as big an issue as you make it out to be. Yes, it is significantly more work then when they were just sprites (even the few framed animated ones from BW), but it's the type of work that easily scales laterally

When people speak of the difficulty of bring back all the Pokemon, I don't know why the actual modelling and animations are a big concern. The balancing and updating of movesets/stats/etc, which has to be done in-house, is the biggest issue. Asset creation isn't IMO

I suspect Gen 9 will see a major improvement to their tools with the assistance of Nintendo and/or HAL. becoming building mates doesn't seem like a coincidence.
We can only hope. I do think they should take on more outside assistance, which they seem to currently primarily just use for localization
 

MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,499
The problem for me is Dexit in the context of Pokemon. I do agree that this happening was inevitable, but the issu
One would hope that they're making changes to their development process that will end up mitigating this sort of risk in the future, because the number of Pokémon wasn't the only aspect of Sword and Shield that was very undercooked.

And this is my problem with Dexit in context. I could have accepted the small dex in the base game more if the rest of the content didn't support. There's a distinct lack of polish in certain areas of the game, post-game content was abysmal and the critical path was incredibly linear, with next to no room for deviation.

The Pokemon Company could absolutely give Game Freak more time to make the mainline games, but given how they sell, what reason do they have to so?
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
When people speak of the difficulty of bring back all the Pokemon, I don't know why the actual modelling and animations are a big concern. The balancing and updating of movesets/stats/etc, which has to be done in-house, is the biggest issue. Asset creation isn't IMO
people want better animations. that's a big ask. it's hard to watch False Swipe Gaming's videos and not think "man that looks so much better". "but muh polygon counts!", as if people give a shit. hell, pokemon might have too many polygons for their level of detail.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
people want better animations. that's a big ask. it's hard to watch False Swipe Gaming's videos and not think "man that looks so much better". "but muh polygon counts!", as if people give a shit. hell, pokemon might have too many polygons for their level of detail.
Yeah, but my point is that outsourcing animations is done by every company in every industry that calls for animation work. There are tons of animators and Gamefreak, even from the share they get of TPCs profits, has large pockets. It shouldn't be an insurmountable issue just because GF is a relatively small company
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
Yeah, but my point is that outsourcing animations is done by every company in every industry that calls for animation work. There are tons of animators and Gamefreak, even from the share they get of TPCs profits, has large pockets. It shouldn't be an insurmountable issue just because GF is a relatively small company
and people made fun of me when I said Level 5 should be brought on as an assist company.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
I would have been okay with Dexit if it actually had a tangible impact on the quality of the game.

But it's still a joke, just now with less Pokemon.
During the period they presumably should have started researching and working on the Switch they were still banking on the 3DS lasting and the Switch underperforming 🤷🏽‍♂️