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Unknownlight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 2, 2017
10,539
The title and thumbnail are far more inflammatory than the actual video. I genuinely found this video to be the most interesting and plausible dissection of Nintendo's overall design philosophy for all their games over the past 10 years. It explains a lot of things, not just Paper Mario.

 

Secretofmateria

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,424
Paper mario didn't just DIE....it was MURDER.....
WarRobots.jpg
 

ExoExplorer

Member
Jan 3, 2019
1,240
New York City
Honestly I'm tired of the whole discussion around PM. So that title doesn't exactly fill me with enthusiasm about checking this out. Sounds like it's more for clickbait based on your description though.
 

NabiscoFelt

One Winged Slayer
Member
Aug 15, 2019
7,613
Skimmed through the video, so maybe I missed something there, but this analysis seems somewhat flawed to me, especially in terms of how it relates to Paper Mario. The idea that Nintendo is moving away from extrinsic motivation in their EPD developed franchises is pretty clear, yeah, and the analysis there is solid, but that doesn't extend to non-EPD franchises at all. Most importantly, Intelligent Systems, who develop Paper Mario, also develop Fire Emblem, and you don't get much more extrinsically motivated than an RPG, and Three Houses is no less extrinsically motivated than any FE before it. So I'm not sure you can blame Paper Mario's trend on EPD's move towards intrinsic motivation in their games.

Maybe you could argue that as a Mario spinoff, Paper Mario has more ties to EPD philosophy, but then Mario + Rabbids exists, which also has a good deal of extrinsic motivation. Regardless, the video doesn't make that argument as far as I can tell.
 
Oct 12, 2020
1,146
I unfollowed Ceave Gaming a few months ago. I really liked his Mario Maker Videos. They were very informative, creative and fun. But after his long break, his videos became extremely bitter and weird.
For example he argued Nintendo hated the Speedrunning community, because they changed the physics of Cat Mario in Mario Maker 2. Or that Mario Odyssey's is badly designed, because of the controlls of the Tank Transformation are not good enough.

I just couldn't stand those weird arguments anymore and all of his videos are now just bashing Nintendo for some minor details. Also is stick (long pauses, dramtic breaks, etc) became very formulaic.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
Uh...

*Looks at The Origami King*

What died? This isn't another screed about never getting The Thousand-Year Door 2, is it?
 

Sander VF

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
25,912
Tbilisi, Georgia
This is actually a very good and interesting video. Unfortunately, that title really, really, REALLY does it a disservice.

Gotta say though, his "conspiracy theory" makes so much more sense than Arlo's.

Uh...

*Looks at The Origami King*

What died? This isn't another screed about never getting The Thousand-Year Door 2, is it?
It obviously is. Could have tell that from the title of the video alone.

People will never let go of that sixteen years old game.

No seriously that title and thumbnail are shitting it up.

Here's a really lame TL;DW:

He thinks that Nintendo's game design in the last ten years is actually focused on intrinsic motivation, as opposed to extrinsic motivation (he doesn't really criticize that, he actually very much adores Nintendo's focus on intrinsic design. He says as much). However, he says that this focus on intrinsic rewards, while resulting in some amazing games, can also come at the expense of Nintendo franchises previously focused on more extrinsic progression, such as Metroid. He supposes that the reason why Paper Mario ultimately moved away from its roots is because its original progression systems that some players are yearning for (i.e XP, getting new partners to access previously inaccessible areas) were extrinsic motivation systems (he refers to this as a tin-foil hat theory... gotta say it is a giant step from "they did it to SPITE us", if nothing else).

Goddamn that title and thumbnail are so awful.

P.S. He actually thought OK was a very good game, but in spite of a lot of its design decisions.
 
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SpartyCrunch

Xbox
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,494
Seattle, WA
Ceave / Ceave Gaming is hilarious. Regardless of your impressions of this video, you should definitely go back and watch some of his Mario Maker videos. He has such a dry, understated sense of humor.

Usually along the lines of "How does this work? Well, it's actually quite simple...."

<Extremely complicated esoteric explanation of fascinating minutiae>

This is usually when he's doing some analysis on fun Mario Maker contraptions, like these:


 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
Here's a really lame TL;DW:

He thinks that Nintendo's game design in the last ten years is actually focused on intrinsic motivation, as opposed to extrinsic motivation (he doesn't really criticize that, he actually very much adores Nintendo's focus on intrinsic design. He says as much). However, he says that this focus on intrinsic rewards, while resulting in some amazing games, can also come at the expense of Nintendo franchises previously focused on more extrinsic progression, such as Metroid. He supposes that the reason why Paper Mario ultimately moved away from its roots is because its original progression systems that some players are yearning for (i.e XP, getting new partners to access previously inaccessible areas) were extrinsic motivation systems.

Goddamn that title and thumbnail are so awful.
Setting aside the absolute clown show dumbassery that is the title and thumbnail, this doesn't make a compelling argument at all.

Paper Mario is not an EPD game designed by the same people that make the core Mario titles. It's a spin-off by Intelligent Systems, a third-party with extremely close ties to Nintendo, and a studio that is more than willing to work with "extrinsic" design elements like EXP. The simpler, straight-forward answer is that IS doesn't want to make another Paper Mario in the vein of the first two titles in terms of gameplay, and Nintendo's own modern guidelines and rules for outside parties working with the Mario IP in particular prevent studios (not just IS or Paper Mario) from going in some of the outlandish directions that older games predating these guidelines could.
 

Sander VF

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
25,912
Tbilisi, Georgia
Setting aside the absolute clown show dumbassery that is the title and thumbnail, this doesn't make a compelling argument at all.

Paper Mario is not an EPD game designed by the same people that make the core Mario titles. It's a spin-off by Intelligent Systems, a third-party with extremely close ties to Nintendo, and a studio that is more than willing to work with "extrinsic" design elements like EXP. The simpler, straight-forward answer is that IS doesn't want to make another Paper Mario in the vein of the first two titles in terms of gameplay, and Nintendo's own modern guidelines and rules for outside parties working with the Mario IP in particular prevent studios (not just IS or Paper Mario) from going in some of the outlandish directions that older games predating these guidelines could.
To be fair I enjoyed the video more for its overall analysis of Nintendo game design in the last decade more than the theories he built from that. The part where he raises the possibility that this focus is why there hasn't been Metroid for a while is gigantic stretch, for example.

But yeah the fact that IS isn't really a part of Nintendo and has a very extrinsically motivated SRPG series as their bread and butter under Nintendo, really does throw a wrench into the theory. Still, that had way more thought put into it than "they did it to spite me".
 

Hailinel

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Oct 27, 2017
35,527
But yeah the fact that IS isn't really a part of Nintendo and has a very extrinsically motivated SRPG series as their bread and butter under Nintendo, really does throw a wrench into the theory. Still, that had way more thought put into it than "they did it to spite me".
That is true.

Could be wrong but three houses is not made by IS it's Techmo
Three Houses is an Intelligent Systems game developed with assistance from Koei Tecmo.
 

NabiscoFelt

One Winged Slayer
Member
Aug 15, 2019
7,613
Setting aside the absolute clown show dumbassery that is the title and thumbnail, this doesn't make a compelling argument at all.

Paper Mario is not an EPD game designed by the same people that make the core Mario titles. It's a spin-off by Intelligent Systems, a third-party with extremely close ties to Nintendo, and a studio that is more than willing to work with "extrinsic" design elements like EXP. The simpler, straight-forward answer is that IS doesn't want to make another Paper Mario in the vein of the first two titles in terms of gameplay, and Nintendo's own modern guidelines and rules for outside parties working with the Mario IP in particular prevent studios (not just IS or Paper Mario) from going in some of the outlandish directions that older games predating these guidelines could.

Yeah the video makes the fallacy of referring to "Nintendo Games" as a whole unit as if they're all developed by the same people, but then only focusing on Nintendo developed titles to make a conclusion about a Nintendo published titled developed by a team most famous for an ongoing SRPG franchise

Could be wrong but three houses is not made by IS it's Techmo
IS still had oversight over the project, and it's not like Three Houses would have differed much if IS developed it. But if you want to be technical, you can use Fates, Awakening, or Shadows of Valentia as example games, they were developed in the same timeframe that the video discusses
 

K Samedi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,989
Setting aside the absolute clown show dumbassery that is the title and thumbnail, this doesn't make a compelling argument at all.

Paper Mario is not an EPD game designed by the same people that make the core Mario titles. It's a spin-off by Intelligent Systems, a third-party with extremely close ties to Nintendo, and a studio that is more than willing to work with "extrinsic" design elements like EXP. The simpler, straight-forward answer is that IS doesn't want to make another Paper Mario in the vein of the first two titles in terms of gameplay, and Nintendo's own modern guidelines and rules for outside parties working with the Mario IP in particular prevent studios (not just IS or Paper Mario) from going in some of the outlandish directions that older games predating these guidelines could.
Yeah I think the simplest explanation works best. Actually all Nintendos games try to not do the same thing twice. That's why their older games are still popular because they're unique. I think IS tried to do something new and different.
 

Deleted member 33120

User Requested Account Closure
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Nov 15, 2017
970
Coming in here to bash the title/thumbnail even though everybody agrees they're is bad just reveals that you don't want to engage with the rest of the argument.

Personally, I think the argument is a little specious, because other IS games still feature EXP and progression systems. But I do think there has been a design philosophy shift in some of Nintendo's output with regards to Mario games and spin offs that I can't quite put a finger on.
 
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OP
Unknownlight

Unknownlight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 2, 2017
10,539
Setting aside the absolute clown show dumbassery that is the title and thumbnail, this doesn't make a compelling argument at all.

Paper Mario is not an EPD game designed by the same people that make the core Mario titles. It's a spin-off by Intelligent Systems, a third-party with extremely close ties to Nintendo, and a studio that is more than willing to work with "extrinsic" design elements like EXP. The simpler, straight-forward answer is that IS doesn't want to make another Paper Mario in the vein of the first two titles in terms of gameplay, and Nintendo's own modern guidelines and rules for outside parties working with the Mario IP in particular prevent studios (not just IS or Paper Mario) from going in some of the outlandish directions that older games predating these guidelines could.

I feel it's entirely reasonable that EPD franchises (like Mario) have stricter oversight from EPD than franchises created and developed by other teams (Fire Emblem, Pokémon, Xenoblade, etc.)

Mario + Rabbids is an exception. It was developed and published by Ubisoft; it's basically a Ubisoft game that licenses the Mario IP.
 

NabiscoFelt

One Winged Slayer
Member
Aug 15, 2019
7,613
Coming in here to bash the title even though everybody agrees the title is bad just reveals that you don't want to engage with the rest of the argument.
I mean, putting aside the title, the argument still isn't sound. It's a good analysis of EPD development patterns coupled with a really bad extension of that analysis to practically unrelated franchises. It falls apart really quickly when you think about it in terms of Paper Mario.
 

Hailinel

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Oct 27, 2017
35,527
I feel it's entirely reasonable that EPD franchises (like Mario) have stricter oversight from EPD than franchises created and developed by other teams (Fire Emblem, Pokémon, Xenoblade, etc.)

Mario + Rabbids is an exception. It was developed and published by Ubisoft; it's basically a Ubisoft game that licenses the Mario IP.
Mario + Rabbids isn't an exception though, because the team still had to get sign-off on what they could and couldn't do with the characters and world. Ubisoft didn't have free reign to do whatever they wanted.
 

Deleted member 2791

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,054
This is actually a very good and interesting video. Unfortunately, that title really, really, REALLY does it a disservice.

Gotta say though, his "conspiracy theory" makes so much more sense than Arlo's.




No seriously that title and thumbnail are shitting it up.

Here's a really lame TL;DW:

He thinks that Nintendo's game design in the last ten years is actually focused on intrinsic motivation, as opposed to extrinsic motivation (he doesn't really criticize that, he actually very much adores Nintendo's focus on intrinsic design. He says as much). However, he says that this focus on intrinsic rewards, while resulting in some amazing games, can also come at the expense of Nintendo franchises previously focused on more extrinsic progression, such as Metroid. He supposes that the reason why Paper Mario ultimately moved away from its roots is because its original progression systems that some players are yearning for (i.e XP, getting new partners to access previously inaccessible areas) were extrinsic motivation systems (he refers to this as a tin-foil hat theory... gotta say it is a giant step from "they did it to SPITE us", if nothing else).

Goddamn that title and thumbnail are so awful.

P.S. He actually thought OK was a very good game, but in spite of a lot of its design decisions.

Aside from what the others have already answered, I'll just add that the will to change up stuff is what made them go in another direction after two games following a nearly identical formula, which is something that has been Nintendo's DNA since the beginning. I didn't search back for the actual quotes but I'm pretty sure I've read that the reason they gave to not go back to the same turn based RPG battle system is simply that they felt they reached the limits of what they could exploit by the second game, and thought they should just move to something different. The same has been said for Sticker Star and Color Splash as to why TOK follows a different formula. And it's hard to blame them, seeing how many franchises died by staying too similar (see Mario & Luigi for a Mario RPG case).
 
Oct 12, 2020
1,146
I didn't watch the video, but it seens like, Ceave Gaming does his "conspiracy theories" again. His last videos i watched were fall of them ... ugh.

I feel it's entirely reasonable that EPD franchises (like Mario) have stricter oversight from EPD than franchises created and developed by other teams (Fire Emblem, Pokémon, Xenoblade, etc.)

Mario + Rabbids is an exception. It was developed and published by Ubisoft; it's basically a Ubisoft game that licenses the Mario IP.
Why is Mario vs Rabbids an exception? Isn't this a case, where Nintendo should have a extremely strict oversight, since it is a foreign 3rd Party developer? Wouldn't be Nintendo less strict with a developer, which has a long term and close relationship with them?
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,115
Greater Vancouver
Uploader clearly knows they gotta lean into that 'AngryTube' clickbait before they can trick people with an actual point

"PAPER MARIO WAS MURDERED GUYZ! Anyway..."
 

Deleted member 32106

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 9, 2017
2,819
I feel it's entirely reasonable that EPD franchises (like Mario) have stricter oversight from EPD than franchises created and developed by other teams (Fire Emblem, Pokémon, Xenoblade, etc.)

Mario + Rabbids is an exception. It was developed and published by Ubisoft; it's basically a Ubisoft game that licenses the Mario IP.
It's not like Mario + Rabbit doesn't have EPD producer
 
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Unknownlight

Unknownlight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 2, 2017
10,539
Mario + Rabbids isn't an exception though, because the team still had to get sign-off on what they could and couldn't do with the characters and world. Ubisoft didn't have free reign to do whatever they wanted.
Why is Mario vs Rabbids an exception? Isn't this a case, where Nintendo should have a extremely strict oversight, since it is a foreign 3rd Party developer? Wouldn't be Nintendo less strict with a developer, which has a long term and close relationship with them?

It's more of an observation. I have no idea why Mario + Rabbids is an exception. But I'm not even only talking about gameplay—so many parts of that game don't feel anything like a Nintendo published game. Everything from menu design to having their characters swear (with censoring).

77VAMrD.jpg


A lot of parts of that game felt very un-Nintendo-like, so my assumption is that developers had some amount of flexibility.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,873
The title deserves zero fuzzies "Boo!" but the video itself is a solid three fuzzies. I think there's some truth to the intrinsic/extrinsic hypothesis but don't buy that it plays much of a role here. It's a more compelling argument than most we see from PM purists but still kind of falls apart when we remember that Paper Mario's evolution over the years is the standard for Nintendo franchises, not the exception. It would be weird if the series had gone on for numerous entries without someone upending the tea table
 

Lord Azrael

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,976
I just knew this one would get posted lmao

First video YouTube recommends from this channel after months of hiatus and Era absolutely devours this topic
 

Hailinel

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Oct 27, 2017
35,527
It's more of an observation. I have no idea why Mario + Rabbids is an exception. But I'm not even only talking about gameplay—so many parts of that game don't feel anything like a Nintendo published game. Everything from menu design to having their characters swear (with censoring).

77VAMrD.jpg


A lot of parts of that game felt very un-Nintendo-like, so my assumption is that developers had some amount of flexibility.
But look at the characters, though. Here's early art from the pitch/concept phase:

hjU0p73.jpg


See how "off model" Peach is? She's basically wearing Samus's Zero Suit and has a messier hairstyle. In the final game, Peach her standard self. The designs of the weapons in the final game are also different from this early artwork, probably to make them more fitting for a Mario game.
 

Sander VF

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
25,912
Tbilisi, Georgia
Really, what undermines his theory isn't the fact that Intelligent Systems isn't part of Nintendo (after all, Luigi's Mansion 3 is one of the examples of intrinsically motivated games that he uses and that is made by a studio outside of Nintendo, with a quote to back up the idea that they were guided by such a design philosphy).

It is that he seems to have missed a few franchises when "recounting games Nintendo has made in the last decade".

Xenoblade is an extrinsically motivated RPG series made by a studio WITHIN Nintendo, Fire Emblem is an extrinsically motivated series made by the same studio that does Paper Mario, Astral Chain was a game developed by Platinum under Nintendo's supervision and guidance (Nintendo even suggested the setting, apparently) and it has skill trees and new abilities to access previously inaccessible areas, so on and so forth.

Like if Nintendo was having IS get rid of Partners because of the design philosophy, you'd think someone would have broken into Monolith Soft's office and told them to get rid of those annoying Field Skills in Xenoblade 2 lol.

Theory aside though, his analysis of Nintendo game intrinsic design is pretty good, even if he makes some potentially flawed theories based on it. But hey, I was even kind swayed by the theory for a moment until users here reminded me that Fire Emblem exists lol.
 

Igor

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,478
So I actually enjoyed his theory and I think it holds a lot of water - Switch got me back into gaming and it was the first party games that kept me playing. I love that approach in Odyssey and Breath of the Wild and I love that there's no achievement system for the same reason. I think Nintendo is at its best in years.

I do think there are holes though - (Animal Crossing kiiind of requires you to unlock star 3 town in order to unlock all the features the game has to offer, Fire Emblem, and Xenoblade are absent from the critique for some reason as well which I think would actually be a good point -for- what he is trying to say), and he spins the entire thing just to basically say that this ingenious and influential approach to video game design would somehow be a positive way to develop certain franchises in an... old way? I mean, eh?

I don't know why everyone is mad about this clickbait title screen, it's obviously a joke (not my humour but still)?
 

F4r0_Atak

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Oct 31, 2017
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If his (conspiracy) theory turns out to be true, it could explain why the development of Metroid Prime 4 was rebooted. Maybe they (Nintendo) wanted to streamline the general design to reward exploration for the sake of it instead of getting upgrades. Most, if not all, of the Metroid games after Super Metroid, you had Samus losing her abilities to then gain new ones that would compensate for the lost ones. Maybe they wanted Samus to keep her current gear/abilities instead of losing them again for the new game. 🤔
 
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OP
Unknownlight

Unknownlight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 2, 2017
10,539
But look at the characters, though. Here's early art from the pitch/concept phase:

hjU0p73.jpg


See how "off model" Peach is? She's basically wearing Samus's Zero Suit and has a messier hairstyle. In the final game, Peach her standard self. The designs of the weapons in the final game are also different from this early artwork, probably to make them more fitting for a Mario game.

I'm not arguing that they had zero oversight. Obviously they did. I'm arguing that I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that they didn't have such strict oversight so as to be obligated to conform to EPD's specific design philosophies. The other non-Nintendo-like aspects of the game support that idea.
 

Sander VF

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
25,912
Tbilisi, Georgia
If his (conspiracy) theory turns out to be true, it could explain why the development of Metroid Prime 4 was rebooted. Maybe they (Nintendo) wanted to streamline the general design to reward exploration for the sake of it instead of getting upgrades. Most, if not all, of the Metroid games after Super Metroid, you had Samus losing her abilities to then gain new ones that would compensate for the lost ones. Maybe they wanted Samus to keep her current gear/abilities instead of losing them again for the new game. 🤔
Nah, MP4 was probably rebooted because the development really wasn't going well.

I mean, if that was the real issue they would have rebooted it under the same developer, instead of giving the project to Retro.
 

Hailinel

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Oct 27, 2017
35,527
I'm not arguing that they had zero oversight. Obviously they did. I'm arguing that I don't think it's unreasonable that they didn't have such strict oversight so as to be obligated to conform to EPD's specific design philosophies. The other non-Nintendo-like aspects of the game support that idea.
Are things like cartoonish censored swearing really non-Nintendo, though, or just stuff you don't normally see in a Mario game because the characters just don't swear? That's a speculative line that could go either way and doesn't really make for a solid line of speculation.
 

F4r0_Atak

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Oct 31, 2017
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So I actually enjoyed his theory and I think it holds a lot of water - Switch got me back into gaming and it was the first party games that kept me playing. I love that approach in Odyssey and Breath of the Wild and I love that there's no achievement system for the same reason. I think Nintendo is at its best in years.

I do think there are holes though - (Animal Crossing kiiind of requires you to unlock star 3 town in order to unlock all the features the game has to offer, Fire Emblem, and Xenoblade are absent from the critique for some reason as well which I think would actually be a good point -for- what he is trying to say), and he spins the entire thing just to basically say that this ingenious and influential approach to video game design would somehow be a positive way to develop certain franchises in an... old way? I mean, eh?

I don't know why everyone is mad about this clickbait title screen, it's obviously a joke (not my humour but still)?
The problem is Fire Emblem and Xenoblade were always by nature SRPG and JRPG respectively, even weird spin-offs like Tokyo Mirage Sessions were still rooted in the RPG side. The Paper Mario series after TYOD was always considered an Adventure game series. Hencewhy they made the Mario & Luigi series as the RPG one instead. Nintendo even said so in an interview for Color Splash iirc.
 
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F4r0_Atak

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Oct 31, 2017
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Nah, MP4 was probably rebooted because the development really wasn't going well.

I mean, if that was the real issue they would have rebooted it under the same developer, instead of giving the project to Retro.
There's no concrete proof that MP4 was fully developed by an external party. For all we know, it could have been co-developed by Retro Studio.
Did someone say murder?!

200
Is that from the Paper Mario series too? 😂😂😂
 

WestEgg

One Winged Slayer
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Oct 25, 2017
14,047
The video is actually pretty great, clickbaity title and thumbnail aside. I don't agree with all his points, but he at least backs up his arguments with reasonable observations and examples. I was pretty disappointed in Arlo's review for spinning Origami King as the developer's doubling down out of ego to spite the fans, so it's nice to see something that's critical try to actually understand the issue logically.
Also, Origami King is probably by personal GOTY, and I heavily recommend it if you're on the fence.
 

Hailinel

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Oct 27, 2017
35,527
There's no concrete proof that MP4 was fully developed by an external party. For all we know, it could have been co-developed by Retro Studio.
All information available suggests that it was being developed by Bandai Namco while Retro was working on whatever project they had that ended up apparently canceled.