Nice erasure of minority cultures, that's a shitty thing to do.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
CDPR's response over The Witcher 3's lack of diversity rings more hollow after the Netflix series
- Thread starter chaobreaker
- Start date
Nice erasure of minority cultures, that's a shitty thing to do.
The Witcher become an international phenomenon a long time ago.
Yes the books started as polish culture. But today it is a franchise handled and consumed by a wide range of people and cultures, and the story, themes, and "cultures" within the franchise reflect that.
Seems you do need the explainer
Having a black or brown face in the game would not change the story or culture of the franchise at all. We see that in the tv series. No one is trying to claim anything as their own. That's a dumb ass straw man and deflection from the issue at hand.
In fact to talk about cultural "realism" in a fantasy setting with dragons and elf people(as silly as that argument is in the first place), it's unrealistic for their to be only fair skinned people. Humans have a diverse range of skin colors. You check any continent in any time in history and you will see more diverse skin colors than what's depicted in the Witcher games.
That's purposeful exclusion, and none of excuses can change that.
What culture did I erase?
You doing the "reverse racism" thing on me? Lol
Doesn't Journey to the West literally take place in a fantastical Asia? Witcher is in a completely fictional land based on Polish culture
As a Pole I must say that you've just proved that your point of view is completely irrelevant.
User Banned (5 Days): Dismissing concerns around representation
Yeah but ppl should not be so sensitive when game makers just respect the source material.
While I agree, I do think the shows are willing to take decisions that deviate from established Canon. Showtime is going to make Halo's commander Keyes black in the new show. That's awesome, but it would have been odd if they retconned his race in h2 (not that he shows up much..).
That said, none of that excuses or impacts the lack of diversity writ large in the universe. Adaptations are meant to be.. Adapted. The author doesn't even consider the games canon lol
That said, none of that excuses or impacts the lack of diversity writ large in the universe. Adaptations are meant to be.. Adapted. The author doesn't even consider the games canon lol
Yes, but it is still seen as one of China's most renowned literary works. You will not say Journey to the West isn't part of Chinese's culture due to how it has been adapted by many different countries.
The poster literally said the Witcher isn't Polish Culture anymore since the whole world enjoys it.
No. The Northern Realms are a small part of the Continent and are isolated geographically and isolated by Nilfgaard which sees them as within their sphere of influence. Ofir seems India/Israel inspired based on Hearts of Stone. Zerrikania is an African/Arab mix. Hakland is inspired by the Mongolians. There are PoC nations but the books focus on the conflict between the Nilfgaardian Empire which is a German/Russian/Roman Empire hybrid, and the Northern Realms which all seem to be a stand in for Poland except for Kovir & Poviss which are the Switzerland stand in. Skellige is the Scandinavia/Britain/Ireland/Scotland stand in.
As for the games vs. the show. The Netflix show choose to go with a colorblind casting approach which is fine. The games chose to go with a different approach and that's fine too. The two can coexist just fine. I don't remember any complaints about AC Odyssey not having a diverse cast in it, or at least I don't remember any complaints. God of War 4 didn't either. It's rather jarring how this game has caused so much complaining despite being over 5 years old, other more recent games having the same complaints, and Hearts of Stone/Cyberpunk 2077 clearly showing CDPR doesn't have a problem putting in PoC into their games.
I think you're responding to the wrong person?
I never said I have a problem with non-white-skinned players being cast in the Netflix adaptation of the Witcher. If that's how you want to interpret The Witcher, that's cool by me. Like you said, the books did not make much comment on skin tones.
But if a work, no matter its content, was created by a Polish creator in the Polish-language, it stands to reason it is very much a work of Polish culture. That user was stating that isn't Polish culture anymore, which is plain out appropriation.
Please...you are grossly misunderstood and confusing it with entitlement.
if some work is Japanese and if it has international coverage/acclaim, doesn't erase its roots and doesn't make it non-Japanese.
Is the original creator Slavic? What origin mythology is it build around?
The way you are pissing all over Poland in your posts is quite frankly fucking deplorable.
The books are based on broader things than Polish culture. Toussaint is pretty obviously a remix of cultural tropes well outside of Poland.
The way some people in this thread act you'd think Sapkowski had never been influenced by anything outside of Łódź
The show has added some minor characters like Dara, expanded on Yen's backstory and that's pretty much it. Many of the episodes were almost a direct retelling of the short stories. Slavic inspired monsters are still present. Dark undertones that convey morality are still present, like many Slavic fairytales. The political machinations of the books are still present.
One of the only changes is they cast some people as not white. So your assumption that it's "completely stripped" the Witcher seems wrong at best, or xenophobic at worst because they added some POC. (Everyone being white didn't make the Witcher books "unique")
I don't mind that the Witcher games chose to stick to a white cast, and I don't mind Netflix wanted some diversity. Both adaptations convey the tone of the books just fine in their own way.
Cdpr is a fantastic studio that makes amazing games with pretty bad pr people. Cyberpunk looks like it's going in a more diverse direction but the show is fantastic all around
re: "Witcher isn't polish culture"
It's nothing new that some american wokies don't care about white minority cultures because for all their love of diversity they aren't capable of seeing whiteness and white culture without a completely american lens like a true imperalist.
It's nothing new that some american wokies don't care about white minority cultures because for all their love of diversity they aren't capable of seeing whiteness and white culture without a completely american lens like a true imperalist.
The "based on Polish Culture" thing was always something that was said by like people who, didn't really look into Polish culture...a ton of the witcher stories are reactive takes on existing fairy tales from completely different areas of Europe, not Poland. Factions like Nilfgaard are based on completely different cultures outside of Poland. Yes, by the time of the witcher 3, Poland and it's culture did have a direct influence on the world of the witcher as it exists in CDPR. But the book universe was very very different.
To bring the point home, this is literally a quote from the author.
""I've said it once, and I'll say it again: there is no deliberate world creation in my books! When it comes to the ontology of the entire civilization, it is rudimentary, subservient to the plot and only the plot. (…) My world is a pseudo-world, a mere background, a picture on a canvas moved by a reel. And it's justified – after all, the story in the books is about the fate of the characters, not about the fate of the world; the setting serves the plot, not the other way around.""
So kindly stop citing "But Polish culture" as an excuse to not include PoC in a fantasy series, because there's ALWAYS SOME EXCUSE to not include PoC. it's a symptom of a larger problem in media that needed to be dealt with.
""I've said it once, and I'll say it again: there is no deliberate world creation in my books! When it comes to the ontology of the entire civilization, it is rudimentary, subservient to the plot and only the plot. (…) My world is a pseudo-world, a mere background, a picture on a canvas moved by a reel. And it's justified – after all, the story in the books is about the fate of the characters, not about the fate of the world; the setting serves the plot, not the other way around.""
-Andrzej Sapkowski
According to reddit commentary, the mythologies he takes from are more than just Slavic (it includes Germanic and Celtic). But for everything else, aka how the world functions, is likely closer to his heart, i.e. slavic culture.
Not pissing on Poland. You made that up.
This is not just international coverage.
This is an IP with international input. People from all over the world now work on this IP. The themes, and stories within the IP now represent those people working on it.
It's going to be hard to get through to some people eden. Like the last couple of days have really made me wonder what the fuck is going on .The "based on Polish Culture" thing was always something that was said by like people who, didn't really look into Polish culture...a ton of the witcher stories are reactive takes on existing fairy tales from completely different areas of Europe, not Poland. Factions like Nilfgaard are based on completely different cultures outside of Poland. Yes, by the time of the witcher 3, Poland and it's culture did have a direct influence on the world of the witcher as it exists in CDPR. But the book universe was very very different.
To bring the point home, this is literally a quote from the author.
""I've said it once, and I'll say it again: there is no deliberate world creation in my books! When it comes to the ontology of the entire civilization, it is rudimentary, subservient to the plot and only the plot. (…) My world is a pseudo-world, a mere background, a picture on a canvas moved by a reel. And it's justified – after all, the story in the books is about the fate of the characters, not about the fate of the world; the setting serves the plot, not the other way around.""
So kindly stop citing "But Polish culture as an excuse" to not include PoC in a fantasy series, because there's ALWAYS SOME EXCUSE to not include PoC.
""I've said it once, and I'll say it again: there is no deliberate world creation in my books! When it comes to the ontology of the entire civilization, it is rudimentary, subservient to the plot and only the plot. (…) My world is a pseudo-world, a mere background, a picture on a canvas moved by a reel. And it's justified – after all, the story in the books is about the fate of the characters, not about the fate of the world; the setting serves the plot, not the other way around.""
-Andrzej Sapkowski
No you guys are the ones trying to "shit" on me the way you claiming I'm doing Poland.
American culture gets exported, adapted, and changed all the time.
That's the way culture works.
You guys can keep making up all these dumb ass stories a about me of you want, but that does not make them true.
And I suppose jazz and hip-hop is no longer black culture either, because it is being handled and consumed by people of many different cultures?
Like I said, you are literally arguing for cultural appropriation, except it being okay as long as the culture appropriated is predominantly white-skinned.
It would not change the story or culture to have a black Geralt, it's true. But if it would not change anything, why do it? To satisfy an American ideal of what diversity means?
Like I asked before, would it also be a valid complaint that there are no lower-caste characters in American media?
I was responding to your point about it being based on Polish culture. The Witcher games are more influenced by Polish culture than the books. That much is true. Right down to using real life audio from Poland, however, none of that would be lost if there were a bunch of PoC. Like, Assassin's Creed Odyssey has a world just as believable and well realized, and dark skinned npcs didn't suddenly break the illusion. Same with the netflix adaptation. It was just one area where the Witcher devs, through no act of intentional malice, fell a bit short, and it's worth pointing out because it can lead to harmful assumptions.
The world of the Witcher is made up of many different countries and cultures more or less based on real life countries. It's not set in just some fantasy Poland, but in a Fantasy Eurasia. Characters also come from all over the map and travel all over the map in the books, games and TV series.
Yes American culture is spread out and adapted but no one ever says it isn't part of that culture. That is what people are getting upset about. You literally said the Witcher isn't Polish culture anymore.
Did you mean to say that it has a wider view now and should not be stuck in Poland's homogeneous casting?
What are you even talking about!?
The Witcher game developers; CDPR only has studios in Poland.
This is not *Ubisoft* who created The Witcher games.
Also true. But I guess people just expect a little more from the cast these days. CP2077 seems to be very diverse. I'm sure CDPR will spice it up a little in TW4.
CDPR has trash politics and TW3 had some of the most need cringe sexist writing of any video game this generation.
That's true, but the world, the costumes and the architecture ( like the village design) is not Slavic. I should have been more specific in my post.
Ye, I don't know if is more strong the arrogance or the ignorance in their approach.
Even if there is no deliberate world creation, and that it is a pseudo-world, that doesnt mean it isnt based on his personal experience and his cultural background. Several of its creatures are clearly based on slavic oral traditions as well as the tone of its work. Trying to separate "The Witcher" stories out of the polish background can work, but the polish story background helps and enhances the story.
User Banned (2 Weeks): Inflammatory false equivalence
I'm very happy because they included a Latino character in Cyberpunk 2077.
Did i become an angry goat when they didnt include poc in the Witcher 3? The fuck no, It didnt make sense.
When i read fantasy medieval books in some sort of alternate Europe i never picture Black/Brown people in It, sorry but thats how it is, the same way i dont want white people in my Aztec/Mayan game (if It ever happens)
The Witcher saga exhudes polish culture, thats why it was such a breath of fresh air to me (and others) and its not less special just because polish culture is white.
Edit: Yeah yeah, i noticed that Nilfgaard and Touissant are the Roman empire, im not dumb, still, in my mind the games/books take place in slavic Europe.
Did i become an angry goat when they didnt include poc in the Witcher 3? The fuck no, It didnt make sense.
When i read fantasy medieval books in some sort of alternate Europe i never picture Black/Brown people in It, sorry but thats how it is, the same way i dont want white people in my Aztec/Mayan game (if It ever happens)
The Witcher saga exhudes polish culture, thats why it was such a breath of fresh air to me (and others) and its not less special just because polish culture is white.
Edit: Yeah yeah, i noticed that Nilfgaard and Touissant are the Roman empire, im not dumb, still, in my mind the games/books take place in slavic Europe.
Last edited:
I'm disappointed with the dismissal of developers trying to tell more Slavic and Eastern European narratives and failing to understand that focusing on those relationships is just the opportunity cost of focusing on other forms of diversity. Much of Eastern Europe has suffered a great deal during the past few hundred years at the hands of stronger European powers and much of their own cultural legacies have been either white-washed through predominately Christian societies exerting their influence that was then only made worse by the Soviet Union's harsh influence and eradication of their cultural elements to form their idealized version of a universal society across the entire Soviet bloc. This not only contributed to the destruction of further individual cultural elements that were seen as not appropriate or fit for the Soviet Union, but also of even the Christianized elements of society they had managed to make for themselves. In other words, much of Eastern Europe spent the entirety of the 20th century robbed of their unique cultural identities and traits.
Much of the Post-Soviet period for these countries has been focused on reclaiming the lost identities of their individual countries and cultural sects while also attempting to reconcile certain carry-overs from Soviet society. Many of these countries are just now finding themselves in positions to even really attempt more wide scale reforms and conversations about identity since many of them also spent much of the 1990s and early 2000s still suffering from the collapse of the Soviet Union economically and socially, and even now many are still in places of relative poverty to basically all of "traditional Western society." They're having to grow into the modern world while also rediscover their own cultural history. Which is only made worse by the continued pressing of Putin's Russia on to their territories and in a fairly active attempt to reclaim the Soviet Union as we've seen with Crimea and parts of Georgia literally being taken by "Russian supporting separatists..."
For those reasons, it's arguably more important than ever to emphasize these narratives as they are still incredibly marginalized and most of the world completely fails to consider their unique elements and differences due to their struggles in redefining themselves in such a short period post the Soviet Union. Look at how much people don't understand Ukraine now that it's in the news cycle thanks to impeachment and don't even realize the implications of all of that situation for the Ukrainians themselves. Eastern European cultural narratives are still very much downplayed in the face of more traditional Western culture and many are constantly in danger of being Russified once again. Those narratives are incredibly important to tell and perhaps shed more light on as to define them again in the 21st century and so that people can recognize them on the world stage.
Not to mention, many of these places were further homogenized by the late period in the Soviet Union where racism and "purity tests" in regards to culture also became more prevalent, so between that and much of the white washing of their own narratives and history from outside powers (in addition to their own because this is true of pretty much all ethnically "white" countries as well) makes the current society much less knowledgeable about non-white narratives and issues of cultural diversity.
Of course it would be nice to see more diversity in their games from a Western perspective, but I can't say I'm keen to criticize them for focusing on other things in their game when there is just so much more complexity at play here from a variety of cultural perspectives. CD Projekt Red didn't exactly anticipate such a huge momentum for The Witcher III that turned them into one of the premiere developers in the world either, so I'm not sure "appealing to Western standards" is a particularly good way to position this criticism. Especially since, after becoming a bigger presence in the Western world, they started more actively working towards diversifying their titles within The Witcher III's DLC and especially from what we've seen in Cyperpunk 2077. Not to mention, The Witcher in of itself made progress in further developing its portrayals of female characters over time and they were never actively malicious against diverse characters.
And being conscientious of diversity is a much, much more recent thing in entertainment to begin with. There has been a ton of progress in the past 4 years since The Witcher III was made to begin with, and Poland 4 years ago isn't exactly where you'd expect to find the most nuanced handling of diverse characters versus an American adaptation in the present day. Many other countries just aren't where the West (specifically the US, and specifically in entertainment since society at large also still leaves much to be desired) is at from a cultural acceptance and exploration angle, and that sort of change is going to take time and also require further addressing of systemic issues that will be unique to each individual country. I think it's easy to forget that (and let's face it Poland recently has also been in the news for controversial conservative sentiments regarding LGBTQ+ people, so they also in general have a lot of changes to make to be as culturally "aware" as says the US is).
Again, I'm supportive of diversity and there are lots of developers who could stand to work on it some more, but the Witcher III versus The Witcher TV show is just a really awkward and dismissive angle to take things, and in of itself should be more conscious to Slavic and Eastern European narratives that also desperately could use more attention and are of personal importance to I imagine many of the developers. CD Projekt Red is taking the right steps and not doubling down on offensive portrayals/lack of portrayal like Atlus did, so let's try to keep things in perspective here too.
Much of the Post-Soviet period for these countries has been focused on reclaiming the lost identities of their individual countries and cultural sects while also attempting to reconcile certain carry-overs from Soviet society. Many of these countries are just now finding themselves in positions to even really attempt more wide scale reforms and conversations about identity since many of them also spent much of the 1990s and early 2000s still suffering from the collapse of the Soviet Union economically and socially, and even now many are still in places of relative poverty to basically all of "traditional Western society." They're having to grow into the modern world while also rediscover their own cultural history. Which is only made worse by the continued pressing of Putin's Russia on to their territories and in a fairly active attempt to reclaim the Soviet Union as we've seen with Crimea and parts of Georgia literally being taken by "Russian supporting separatists..."
For those reasons, it's arguably more important than ever to emphasize these narratives as they are still incredibly marginalized and most of the world completely fails to consider their unique elements and differences due to their struggles in redefining themselves in such a short period post the Soviet Union. Look at how much people don't understand Ukraine now that it's in the news cycle thanks to impeachment and don't even realize the implications of all of that situation for the Ukrainians themselves. Eastern European cultural narratives are still very much downplayed in the face of more traditional Western culture and many are constantly in danger of being Russified once again. Those narratives are incredibly important to tell and perhaps shed more light on as to define them again in the 21st century and so that people can recognize them on the world stage.
Not to mention, many of these places were further homogenized by the late period in the Soviet Union where racism and "purity tests" in regards to culture also became more prevalent, so between that and much of the white washing of their own narratives and history from outside powers (in addition to their own because this is true of pretty much all ethnically "white" countries as well) makes the current society much less knowledgeable about non-white narratives and issues of cultural diversity.
Of course it would be nice to see more diversity in their games from a Western perspective, but I can't say I'm keen to criticize them for focusing on other things in their game when there is just so much more complexity at play here from a variety of cultural perspectives. CD Projekt Red didn't exactly anticipate such a huge momentum for The Witcher III that turned them into one of the premiere developers in the world either, so I'm not sure "appealing to Western standards" is a particularly good way to position this criticism. Especially since, after becoming a bigger presence in the Western world, they started more actively working towards diversifying their titles within The Witcher III's DLC and especially from what we've seen in Cyperpunk 2077. Not to mention, The Witcher in of itself made progress in further developing its portrayals of female characters over time and they were never actively malicious against diverse characters.
And being conscientious of diversity is a much, much more recent thing in entertainment to begin with. There has been a ton of progress in the past 4 years since The Witcher III was made to begin with, and Poland 4 years ago isn't exactly where you'd expect to find the most nuanced handling of diverse characters versus an American adaptation in the present day. Many other countries just aren't where the West (specifically the US, and specifically in entertainment since society at large also still leaves much to be desired) is at from a cultural acceptance and exploration angle, and that sort of change is going to take time and also require further addressing of systemic issues that will be unique to each individual country. I think it's easy to forget that (and let's face it Poland recently has also been in the news for controversial conservative sentiments regarding LGBTQ+ people, so they also in general have a lot of changes to make to be as culturally "aware" as says the US is).
Again, I'm supportive of diversity and there are lots of developers who could stand to work on it some more, but the Witcher III versus The Witcher TV show is just a really awkward and dismissive angle to take things, and in of itself should be more conscious to Slavic and Eastern European narratives that also desperately could use more attention and are of personal importance to I imagine many of the developers. CD Projekt Red is taking the right steps and not doubling down on offensive portrayals/lack of portrayal like Atlus did, so let's try to keep things in perspective here too.
Thankfully Cyberpunk is very diverse from everything we've seen.
Maybe the eventual Witcher 4 will have a more diverse fantasy culture.
Maybe the eventual Witcher 4 will have a more diverse fantasy culture.
The Witcher world as described, when it focuses on descriptions, is an amalgamation of cultures that are short hands for the needs of the plot. Like, ofc it's in some way influenced by the author's background, that much is a given and is inherently a part of the writing process, but, "Medieval Poland" the Witcher is not.
The Witcher is definitely part of Polish culture but The Witcher takes inspiration from a lot of different cultures, like the The Arthurian legends, The Grimm Fairy Tales, Hans Christian Andersen, Norse mythology etc.
Yikes this thread. Once again diversity is reduced to just tone of your skin. Some of these comments are just disgusting and infuriating.
As for the show, casting is fine, however so are the games. Literally nothing wrong with them.
As for the show, casting is fine, however so are the games. Literally nothing wrong with them.
But you do know that there were people of color in medieval times tho, right?