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Deleted member 60096

User requested account closure
Banned
Sep 20, 2019
1,295
For what it's worth there are lots of people of color in the books, both native to the regions being depicted and as travelers from foreign lands.

The world of the Witcher doesn't map perfectly to historical earth population spreads and Sapkowski did mix things up quite a bit—though, as has been pointed out, medieval eastern Europe had a lot of non-white people in it, probably more than today

Was it always for the best? No; he definitely stumbles in places. But the world of the Witcher is a very diverse place, and CDPR faceplanted in terms of adapting that part of the setting (as well as a few others)
Considering how angry fans of the game got when they first heard there were going to be black people in the show, CDPR faceplanted morally but it was probably a smart business decision to make it so fucking pasty white. Which says alot about the gaming community
 

Ohri-Jin

Banned
Jul 11, 2019
1,129
The Netherlands
User banned (1 month): Inflammatory false equivalence; dismissing concerns surrounding representation
Oh please imo CDPR deserve no flak for the choices they made for the game. The series should be treated standalone and have nothing to do with the games perse.
Diversity just for the sake of diversity is a bunch of nonsense imo.

If people complain about all the white washing occurring then surely the other way around should be acceptable as well. It just depends on how loyal people are to the original source material.
 

Voyevoda

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,158
Paris, France
NiOh is alternate historical Japan and they had a black samurai.

Fantasy or alternate historical Japan means shit, you can have black people if you want to

Dark_Samurai_Concept_Art.jpg

Well, the black samurai part isn't exactly alternate history.

Yasuke actually existed, just like William Adams.

Yasuke - Wikipedia

 

jandg

Banned
Dec 23, 2019
141
User Banned (Permanent): Racism
I dont exactly get what you mean by diversity for the checkbox/having it forced with no coherency. In general, race shouldn't matter at all, and as a result, it shouldn't affect the quality of the piece of media itself if you change characters that were initially white in the design phase or something to other minorities to get a bit more diversity.

Like I legit cant think of a reason having more diversity would ever be a negative thing tbh.

I do sort of agree about CDPR though. Their previous games never took off in the same way as witcher 3 and being fairly closed off as they are, it makes sense to me that diversity might have just slipped through the cracks for them rather than a bigger design decision like "they should all be white". This feels especially true after they included more diversity in the dlc after it was brought to their attention in the base game.
Because that's not true, there are big cultural differences between different races. Asians are different from black peope are different from southern white and northern white people.

Not just cultural, there are real big physical differences too. Black people are fantastic sports men

And if you're like CDPR and you start adding races for diversity without the actual know how to do them justice. You get into the typical situation of type casting like how black people are represented in anime titles.

 

Deleted member 896

User Requested Account Deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,353
Any sort of answer about "accuracy" as the primary justification is obviously nonsense. But moving past that it's pretty easy to me to understand why Polish devs adapting Polish books would just default to mostly white characters. When Witcher 1 released in 2007 as a Eurojank PC-only game and Witcher 2 released in 2011 as a PC-first game concerns about diversity were not at the forefront of the discussion. Not that everything is fixed today, but things have come a long way in the last nine years. The fact that the game has risen to the point of being a legit AAA blockbuster with simultaneous PC/console releases further subjects it to further scrutiny.

Mind you, I don't blame some fans for feeling let down (particularly with the flimsy response that was clearly not well thought out). But assuming you are willing to give them the benefit of the doubt I think it'd be worth giving CDPR a chance to adapt with the next one. Their track record is far from perfect, but I do think they are receptive to concerns of inclusivity if only for financial reasons at the very least.
 

Viale

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,614
Because that's not true, there are big cultural differences between different races. Asians are different from black peope are different from southern white and northern white people.

And if you're like CDPR and you start adding races for diversity without the actual know how to do them justice. You get into the typical situation of type casting like how black people are represented in anime titles.

That's just telling me you should not play up racial stereotypes though, which... I mean yeah, obviously. I'm mostly talking like if... say Joel was made black or Hispanic instead of white, it would not have negatively impacted TLOU imo for instance.
 

Sanka

Banned
Feb 17, 2019
5,778
Nothing could have been lost. Nioh did it. The point is that Japan is the real world and Sengoku Japan was not diverse. The Witcher is not the real world and is extremely diverse, in universe.
I have no idea why you are so bent on protecting Sekiro from criticism but as far as I can tell Sekiro is set in the 16th century, which would be before Japan deciced to close itself off and even then certain foreign countries, like the dutch and chinese, were allowed to trade with them.
 

Tyaren

Character Artist
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
24,711
It's OK with me if Slavic peoples want to make a game about Slavic peoples, honestly.

Apart from the mythology and monsters the world of The Witcher and its characters are not even predominantly Slavic. Just as our world the Witcher world is wide and consisting of many different countries and cultures. All Witcher characters come from some other place. There's a lot of trade and travel...and invasions I guess. Many characters have German, Dutch, French, Italian, Middle Eastern sounding names or come from places sounding like that. It would only make sense that the Witcher world is a cultural melting pot.
 

Swift_Gamer

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
3,701
Rio de Janeiro
The Witcher 3 is a straight white male game's wet dream come true and I'm convinced that's a huge reason for it's success. Because that gameplay is fucking atrocious and the characters interactions are often ridiculous and immensely cringe worthy, especially when the long cast of perfectly beautiful women *hint hint* is involved.
LMAO what's this? I'm gay so the Witcher 3 is fulfilled my straight wet dream? LMFAO
 

Jonnax

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,920
Because that's not true, there are big cultural differences between different races. Asians are different from black peope are different from southern white and northern white people.

Not just cultural, there are real big physical differences too. Black people are fantastic sports men

And if you're like CDPR and you start adding races for diversity without the actual know how to do them justice. You get into the typical situation of type casting like how black people are represented in anime titles.

In a fantasy setting cultural differences of race don't matter.

The problem you're describing is using racial stereotypes.
 

sensui-tomo

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,629
Diversity for diversity's sake..... why does this sound like a fog for dont add people of color or sex unless they're needed and dont bitch when you're not included.
 
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senj

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,430
Are you sure? I've heard some people say there are two people of color in the books and I'm pretty sure Flipyap (sp?) has said there are no people of color in the books and he/she seems to be very well read on the series.
"There are no people of color in the books" seems like an impossible statement to make — the books, like almost all books, do not exhaustively detail the skin tones of every major and minor character who gets mentioned. You'd have to do a lot of "white is the default, so any time the book says someone is Aedernian or Temerian or Rivian etc that means they're white unless specifically overridden by text elsewhere" reaching to get there.

The reality is that in most cases skin tone goes entirely unremarked on and could be transposed without loss of faithfulness to the actual text.
 

Deleted member 896

User Requested Account Deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,353
We'll have to agree to disagree then. I was icked out almost every time they were on screen together.

There's no need to agree to disagree. Your assessment of Geralt and Ciri's relationship is insanely off the mark. I honestly am curious as to how you possibly arrived at the conclusion that there were flirtatious vibes.
 

Artdayne

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
5,015
"There are no people of color in the books" seems like an impossible statement to make — the books, like almost all books, do not exhaustively detail the skin tones of every major and minor character who gets mentioned. You'd have to do a lot of "white is the default, so any time the book says someone is Aedernian or Temerian or Rivian etc that means they're white unless specifically overridden by text elsewhere" reaching to get there.

The reality is that in most cases skin tone goes entirely unremarked on and could be transposed without loss of faithfulness to the actual text.

I should have been more clear, there are no positively defined people of color in the books. If they exist, they are never described as such.
 

fspm

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,086
User Banned (2 Weeks): Drive-by dismissing concerns of representation
Eastern Europeans were occupied, enslaved and suffered so much it makes me sick when clueless Americans completely oblivious to history accuse eastern Europeans of lack of diversity and such. Westerners live in countries built by slaves, countries where racism is rampant to this day, and they dare to accuse countries like Poland of racism and lack of diversity. Just classic.
Some don't realize there are places in the world besides America.
 

AbsoluteZero0K

Alt Account
Banned
Dec 6, 2019
1,570
While I'm all for diversity in games, there wasn't a "controversy" when Witcher 3 released. There was one specific article published on Polygon taking WItcher 3 to task, and that piece was surrounded by similar articles championing for diversity throughout the gaming industry, not just that specific game.

I don't like the revisionist history about this.

The game that DID get specifically lambasted for its lack of diversity was Kingdom Come: Deliverance, three years after CDPR's Witcher epic. Because of
Vávra's milquetoast, if not negligent, if not passively-aggressively hostile response to criticisms, I will not touch that game.

As for the Witcher novels, Sapkowski only specifies that Geralt is pale-skinned due to his mutations. He does not explicitly mention race in any of his books with the exception of elves and dwarves. One could argue that at most, the Zerrikanians who accompany Three Jack Doors are exotic (glad to see them as black women in the show, btw). This leaves room for creatives to do as they please, on the show, or in the games.

The folks upset about the diversity in the show are making the same mistake fans of Harry Potter and Hunger Games made when Rue was black and Hermonie was cast as black in the live-action.

Folks behaving like Witcher 3 faced controversy concerning diversity and CDPR just shrugged it off are making anachronistic arguments.


BTW, Poland is 98% Polish. I would be less forgiving if the game were developed more westward, or from a Japanese developer who has been been in the business since the 80's.
 

Deleted member 60096

User requested account closure
Banned
Sep 20, 2019
1,295
Oh please imo CDPR deserve no flak for the choices they made for the game. The series should be treated standalone and have nothing to do with the games perse.
Diversity just for the sake of diversity is a bunch of nonsense imo.

If people complain about all the white washing occurring then surely the other way around should be acceptable as well. It just depends on how loyal people are to the original source material.
Complaints about white washing have less to do with loyalty to the source material and more the fact that in media roles for POC are already not as available as they should be without removing more for them
 

Tyaren

Character Artist
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
24,711
Are the many interactions between Geralt and Ciri, who is supposed to be like a daughter to him, but always lean on flirting, not enough? Even Philippa makes a comment about it ingame for crying out loud.

tenor.gif


There's some banter and obvious affection, but never that kind of affection.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,951
Is it mandatory for a game or any medium to have every diversity possible and adhere to all cultural norms?

Sometimes the location of the studio defines it's cultural norms with some amount of flexibility, wouldn't demanding this put up some modest amount of costs, effort and especially strain for those people from that geographic location to adapt elements on which they aren't as familiar as they would have been with their own cultural norms?

I played the Witcher games and I've not had the same level of diversity requirements some keep repeatedly bringing about. I am neither Polish and may or may not be of a certain genetic heritage, but this game is based on fantasy and doesn't artistic integrity of the creative teams apply?

Some companies have the bandwidth to address the topic of diversity due to their geographic presence and this helps enormously, but this may not be possible all the time when the game is sold worldwide to increase sales. Else they will need to substantially cut content from the games to include something entirely alien where the general norms cannot be applied at all.
 

MonsterMech

Mambo Number PS5
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,409
That doesn't mean they can't export Polish culture to the world. I like it when a dev just does it's own thing, from its own perspective, instead of adding things they don't understand.
The Witcher as it stands today is not "polish culture"

There's nothing to understand about more diverse skin colors existing in a fantasy world.

These are all shitty excuses.
 
Jun 23, 2019
6,446
Glad they did. The shitlords are already up in arms over them casting PoC for their pasty main characters in the video game.
 

Ohri-Jin

Banned
Jul 11, 2019
1,129
The Netherlands
Complaints about white washing have less to do with loyalty to the source material and more the fact that in media roles for POC are already not as available as they should be without removing more for them
idk seems both to me tbh. I mean you are doing a disservice to the source material as well. Dragon Ball Evolution and The Last Airbender comes to mind.
Ghost in the Shell did not bother me that much.

I don't know it is a mess in the industry overall for sure.
We can only hope to strife for a better future. Ha :D
 

Drifters_

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,237
User Banned (3 Days): dismissive drive by in a thread about representation
The biggest non story of 2020.
 

Sabretooth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,051
India
The Witcher as it stands today is not "polish culture"

Polish man writes a series of novels in the Polish language, which are then adapted into a Polish-language TV series, and a Polish-developed video game series. Then one day, Americans make their own version of it, and voila, The Witcher is not allowed to be Polish culture anymore.

If anyone ever needed an explainer on what cultural appropriation means, this is it.

I'm willing to bet that for 99% of the people in this forum, The Witcher is literally the only cultural export they know to come from Poland (that is if they even know it comes from Poland). And now that it's famous across the world you want to rip it away from Polish culture and claim it as your own.
 

benny

Member
Oct 26, 2017
381
Whatever reason the particular parties used to reach the goal they reached. I vastly prefer the virtual casting choices in The Witcher 2 and 3 than the actual casting choices in The Witcher TV series.
 

Deleted member 8861

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,564
Apart from the mythology and monsters the world of The Witcher and its characters are not even predominantly Slavic. Just as our world the Witcher world is wide and consisting of many different countries and cultures. All Witcher characters come from some other place. There's a lot of trade and travel...and invasions I guess. Many characters have German, Dutch, French, Italian, Middle Eastern sounding names or come from places sounding like that. It would only make sense that the Witcher world is a cultural melting pot.
Fair enough, I don't know enough about Polish culture nor the Witcher universe to discuss this. If that's the case, the backlash makes more sense.

(Although I'll stand by saying that people from non-diverse backgrounds can create non-diverse settings based on their own history.)
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
Doesn't the history of the world of Witcher state that humans came from another planet somehow. Google intensifies- (230s BR, the Conjunction of the Spheres. Hailing from a homeworld destroyed by themselves,[N 1] humans first appeared in this world after the Conjunction of the Spheres.[3] ).

So the only humans that make it to the new world are white people? And over many many years there's no difference in melanin? The Netflix series just seem more natural.
 

Lyng

Editor at Popaco.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,206
Are the many interactions between Geralt and Ciri, who is supposed to be like a daughter to him, but always lean on flirting, not enough? Even Philippa makes a comment about it ingame for crying out loud.

Wtf? None of the interactions between Geralt and Ciri are of a flirtatious nature. Hell being a dad myself I think they nail the father / daughter relation pretty damn well.
 

Lentic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,835
Doesn't the history of the world of Witcher state that humans came from another planet somehow. Google intensifies- (230s BR, the Conjunction of the Spheres. Hailing from a homeworld destroyed by themselves,[N 1] humans first appeared in this world after the Conjunction of the Spheres.[3] ).

So the only humans that make it to the new world are white people? And over many many years there's no difference in melanin? The Netflix series just seem more natural.
Yeah, I think everyone should be able to call out bad world building. Imagine a fantasy world in which everyone looked exactly the same. If there were an in-world reason for that, then great, but it would make no sense otherwise.
 

ObbyDent

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,910
Los Angeles
I literally can't believe we're still getting the white only defense force out here in 20 fucking 20
 

senj

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,430
Polish man writes a series of novels in the Polish language, which are then adapted into a Polish-language TV series, and a Polish-developed video game series. Then one day, Americans make their own version of it, and voila, The Witcher is not allowed to be Polish culture anymore.
Polish man wrote Polish-language novels in which he stuck the entirety of Europe and some bits of Asia and Africa in a blender to play with a lot of pan-cultural tropes and caricatures of regions like France, Spain, and Germany, specified the skin tone of almost no character let alone the dominant skin tones of entire regions, and spent a lot of time decrying mob violence against visible minorities.

Polish video game company adapted said novels and made the conscious or unconscious decision to read the relative lack of commentary on skin tones as "essentially everyone is white".

What, exactly, is the "Polish culture" you feel is being erased here? Assuming "white is default"? Because again the source material is notably light on commenting on anyone's racial features or skin tone and mostly just sticks to occasionally mentioning the fictional nation they're from, all of which are never given any real demographic details.

Sapkowski himself seems to have no issues with the casting, probably because his books never seemed interesting in nailing down race to begin with. This Polish author certainly doesn't seem to feel that "Polish culture" requires every single person in his pan-European mashup to be white.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,585
Yeah, I think everyone should be able to call out bad world building. Imagine a fantasy world in which everyone looked exactly the same. If there were an in-world reason for that, then great, but it would make no sense otherwise.
The Witcher takes place in one small area of the world. However, the far off lands where people of color might reside have basically no information.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,295
Diversity for the sake of diversity is never good.
Yes it is. Like objectively it's good to have diverse media. Media informs the audience's world views on a subconscious level even if they vehemently deny that it does. Hence why it should be no surprise that the gaming industry, it's audience specifically, had a gamergate tier event.
Many people are perfectly capable of enjoying things and empathizing with them even if the characters in them do not look like them. I would say most, even.
For decades PoC were borderline forced to do this since there weren't many PoC in media.