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Mentalist

Member
Mar 14, 2019
18,025
I just can't wrap my head around the through process behind these decisions. Like, I imagine them having a meeting and discussing these things but I have no idea how they can come to the decisions that end up in the game. They are so out of touch with the real world.
Not gonna make any excuses for the a huge-ass gaming dev that should certainly spend more money to do better.

But "the real world" in Eastern Europe is VERY different from what the English-speaking audience of these games is used to.

CDPRED certainly needs to pay more attention to their *worldwide* audience. They're still making games with typical Eastern European sensibilites, where black people were something you saw on TV in American TV shows, or some token exchange students.
There's an entire generation that was shaped by 80s and 90s Hollywood stereotypes, because those imported movies were the coolest thing around, and ppl couldn't really compare it to "the real world" as it is In North America.

It's gonna take a long-ass time for those sensibilities to go away for people who aren't actually surrounded by North American level of diversity in their everyday lives.
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,550
What's the reference here, exactly? I know it has something to do with crime statistics, but where is it from?

It's a nod to right wing talking points discussing higher crime rates among minorities.

If this were an isolated issue we could probably give them the benefit of the doubt, but to say that there's a pattern of behavior would be a dramatic understatement. None of this is accidental.
 

WhtR88t

Member
May 14, 2018
4,587
Obviously I wasn't talking about the fucking 4 Chan meme .

The man literally said multiple times he's heavily involved in the development of the game. A character like Jackie and some other prominent Asian characters are also weird stereotypes too. He definitely knew about those main characters.
The accents and some 4 Chan meme in some random book in the game aren't even close to the only issues.


Yes cdpr are 99% the reason the shit is so dumb but he definitely has a say in it. This isn't the Witcher situation.

I'm not excusing anything from anyone
I mean, while we're at it should we blame all the actors that were involved? Obviously a lot of them knew how races were being portrayed, and obviously none of them refused to record their lines or partake in the creation of the game (as far as I know, in fact Keanu has been a huge part in the marketing) so they're partly to blame too.
 

DarkCronos

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
289
Perugia, Italy
This should be no surprise. I know the majority of the forum users are from the US or the english speaking world, so for them this could be quite difficult to understand and i want to clarify that it's no excuse or justification for this mishandling, but...

Poland, and the bulk of the countries in eastern and southern europe, all those countries that never had a colonial empire, are basically ethnostates, the people living there never had to deal with a person from an ethnic minority or from another country/continent even once in their lifetime.

It's very easy to misrepresent ethnic minorities when the only contact you had with them is badly localized 80's US movies and television.

Again,THIS IS NO EXCUSE, since we Live in 2020 and the management of CDPR should at least be aware of certain issues and done MORE, but i can see where all of this come from.
 

Conditional-Pancakes

The GIFs of Us
Member
Jun 25, 2020
10,841
the wilderness
Don't forget that they had one of the Playboy photos of Triss hanging in the office back in the W3 days for everyone in the studio to look at while working...

lqanIYa.jpg


What a great professional atmosphere!

Ugh...
 

Yossarian

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,264
CDPR appear to have, at best, lazy and myopic ideas; at worst, outright shitty perspectives on a lot of issues. This is all magnified by their uncritical approach to the setting they're drawing upon.

I wasn't expecting much given that the TTRPG was always set-dressing; an alternative to the usual fantasy dungeons. As modern creators, you can't simply reuse another era's visions of the future without sufficient scrutiny, otherwise you'll drag that time's textual/subtextual prejudices along with it... and you've already got regressive views... well, you get this.

This should be no surprise. I know the majority of the forum users are from the US or the english speaking world, so for them this could be quite difficult to understand and i want to clarify that it's no excuse or justification for this mishandling, but...

Poland, and the bulk of the countries in eastern and southern europe, all those countries that never had a colonial empire, are basically ethnostates, the people living there never had to deal with a person from an ethnic minority or from another country/continent even once in their lifetime.

It's very easy to misrepresent ethnic minorities when the only contact you had with them is badly localized 80's US movies and television.

Again,THIS IS NO EXCUSE, since we Live in 2020 and the management of CDPR should at least be aware of certain issues and done MORE, but i can see where all of this come from.

Huh. Not considered that.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,044
This should be no surprise. I know the majority of the forum users are from the US or the english speaking world, so for them this could be quite difficult to understand and i want to clarify that it's no excuse or justification for this mishandling, but...

Poland, and the bulk of the countries in eastern and southern europe, all those countries that never had a colonial empire, are basically ethnostates, the people living there never had to deal with a person from an ethnic minority or from another country/continent even once in their lifetime.

It's very easy to misrepresent ethnic minorities when the only contact you had with them is badly localized 80's US movies and television.

Again,THIS IS NO EXCUSE, since we Live in 2020 and the management of CDPR should at least be aware of certain issues and done MORE, but i can see where all of this come from.
What gets me to think particularly negatively about them is that - well, look at that racist statistics meme in the OP. That doesn't come from a lack of familiarity, that comes from connections with racist misrepresentations of statistics from abroad. There's someone in CD Projekt Red that's grabbing racist rhetoric from somewhere, absorbing it, and regurgitating it. Similarly, they've used transphobic memes in Twitter that certainly they didn't invent on the spot.

There are other connections here than television, I'd have to imagine.
 

Aldo

Member
Mar 19, 2019
1,723
This should be no surprise. I know the majority of the forum users are from the US or the english speaking world, so for them this could be quite difficult to understand and i want to clarify that it's no excuse or justification for this mishandling, but...

Poland, and the bulk of the countries in eastern and southern europe, all those countries that never had a colonial empire, are basically ethnostates, the people living there never had to deal with a person from an ethnic minority or from another country/continent even once in their lifetime.

It's very easy to misrepresent ethnic minorities when the only contact you had with them is badly localized 80's US movies and television.

Again,THIS IS NO EXCUSE, since we Live in 2020 and the management of CDPR should at least be aware of certain issues and done MORE, but i can see where all of this come from.
This could have been a great chance to talk about modern issues from a non-US/UK centric point of view, but they were unable to go beyond outdated surface level stereotypes, and I don't just mean racial ones.
As you say, this is 2020, we have the internet, and their references seem to be limited to 80s-90s Hollywood and Rockstar games taken at the most superficial level possible. What a letdown.
What gets me to think particularly negatively about them is that - well, look at that racist statistics meme in the OP. That doesn't come from a lack of familiarity, that comes from connections with racist misrepresentations of statistics from abroad. There's someone in CD Projekt Red that's grabbing racist rhetoric from somewhere, absorbing it, and regurgitating it. Similarly, they've used transphobic memes in Twitter that certainly they didn't invent on the spot.

There are other connections here than television, I'd have to imagine.
Oh yeah, you're right, absolutely. The usual nudge-nudge wink-wink that can be handwaved as "just a joke".
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,550
I mean, while we're at it should we blame all the actors that were involved? Obviously a lot of them knew how races were being portrayed, and obviously none of them refused to record their lines or partake in the creation of the game (as far as I know, in fact Keanu has been a huge part in the marketing) so they're partly to blame too.

Voice Actors often have little to literally no context for their lines.
 

Mentalist

Member
Mar 14, 2019
18,025
This should be no surprise. I know the majority of the forum users are from the US or the english speaking world, so for them this could be quite difficult to understand and i want to clarify that it's no excuse or justification for this mishandling, but...

Poland, and the bulk of the countries in eastern and southern europe, all those countries that never had a colonial empire, are basically ethnostates, the people living there never had to deal with a person from an ethnic minority or from another country/continent even once in their lifetime.

It's very easy to misrepresent ethnic minorities when the only contact you had with them is badly localized 80's US movies and television.

Again,THIS IS NO EXCUSE, since we Live in 2020 and the management of CDPR should at least be aware of certain issues and done MORE, but i can see where all of this come from.
I'll add to this, from my own experience as someone who moved to North America at a relatively young age from a former Soviet republic.

Back home, most people live within 2 hours drive from a border with people who feel they should own where you live. You grow up with that. You grow up having ideas about people who speak a different language. Asking "where you're from" to a stranger is basically essential, to get an idea of what group they belong to, and what they're likely to think of you, and people like you. When I did sensitivity training in Canada, I found out that's considered a "micro-agression", because it presumes that the target (a minority, usually) wasn't born in the country. This is not something that's easy for first-gen immigrants to get their heads around, and I've been living in North America for almost 20 years

Everyone back home is "white". And no one thinks of themselves as "white". Because everyone defines themselves by the language they speak, or the church they follow, or the country they're part of.

People in North America, who inhabit continent-spanning countries inhabited by all kinds of people have no idea what that's like. It's a whole different way of thinking, one that's full of grudges that go back centuries. Stereotyping and profiling is a way of life, profiling other "whites". You're gonna have a very hard time explaining to the people whose great grandparents were serfs to some German or Russian-peaking noble why they should be treating other people with more respect, because of slavery that happened across the ocean.

Once again, I'm not trying to justify anything CDPRED is doing, because by becoming a global brand, they SHOULD be held to a higher standard- and Western games media SHOULD be full of constructive criticism, because critical feedback is the only thing likely to clue CEOs into the need to change; But there's a lot of misconceptions being voiced here, so I just wanted to inject some perspective about what Central and Eastern Europe is actually like. And it's not gonna be receptive to change, if the criticism is addressed as them missing something obvious; because the reality is, for people who aren't immersed in the kind of North American diversity, it's NOT going to be obvious.
 

Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
The portrayal of Asians in the game is pretty shocking to me so far. The accents in particular. It's racist or at least tone deaf as fuck.
 

KillLaCam

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,388
Seoul
I mean, while we're at it should we blame all the actors that were involved? Obviously a lot of them knew how races were being portrayed, and obviously none of them refused to record their lines or partake in the creation of the game (as far as I know, in fact Keanu has been a huge part in the marketing) so they're partly to blame too.
If you want. But on a slightly serious note most of the voice actors would just get replaced pretty quickly if they actually tried doing something about anything . As we saw with that voice actor strike a few years ago
 

Nacery

Member
Jul 11, 2018
1,479
This should be no surprise. I know the majority of the forum users are from the US or the english speaking world, so for them this could be quite difficult to understand and i want to clarify that it's no excuse or justification for this mishandling, but...

Poland, and the bulk of the countries in eastern and southern europe, all those countries that never had a colonial empire, are basically ethnostates, the people living there never had to deal with a person from an ethnic minority or from another country/continent even once in their lifetime.

It's very easy to misrepresent ethnic minorities when the only contact you had with them is badly localized 80's US movies and television.

Again,THIS IS NO EXCUSE, since we Live in 2020 and the management of CDPR should at least be aware of certain issues and done MORE, but i can see where all of this come from.
This is pretty much the state of race portrayal in cinema and media in Spain you are either white or you are typecasted as an immigrant with heavy accent. I also have the impression thos is a problem that practically everything done outside the US have.
 
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ze_

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,955
Everyday Joes aren't making this game. I find it hard to believe that the lead writers and designers at CDPR are not exposed to international discourses and films and comics and music which discuss race and history with more tact. And I find it silly that, if that *were* the case, and they've had an insular life, they would not make a point of broadening their horizons when making a game about a diverse American city.
 

blackw0lf48

Member
Jan 2, 2019
2,960
I don't know I think it's more complex than that. Yes there are some stereotypical elements, but than you have things like the first central Hispanic character Initially seem like a stereotype, but then becomes a richer, multilayered character as the story goes on, and especially during the "heroes" quest, along with other Hispanic characters in that quest.

Honestly from the initial reports I read I've been pleasantly surprised by its treatment of minorities in many elements. Yes there are some aspects that disappoint me, but there are other times I think it does a great job.
 

Brinbe

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
58,366
Terana
not surprised. there's probably a whole bunch of that kind of garbage in there. they were prob writing a bunch of shit during crunch with no oversight or care.
 
OP
OP
Chairmanchuck (另一个我)

Chairmanchuck (另一个我)

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,096
China
Honestly from the initial reports I read I've been pleasantly surprised by its treatment of minorities in many elements. Yes there are some aspects that disappoint me, but there are other times I think it does a great job.

So why is almost every asian talking either like Mr. Miyagi or in that heavily accented 80s "Chinese style" from American movies?
Why is the woman in my screenshot wearing a Vietnamese farmer hat and also talking like that?
Why is the only option that I can ask outside of the quest one whether the Sashimi is fresh?
Why did Kabuki somehow got "Old and rusty" when Chinese overtook it?
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,550
not surprised. there's probably a whole bunch of that kind of garbage in there. they were prob writing a bunch of shit during crunch with no oversight or care.

I don't think this is on accident, there's too much of it. There's a very clear pattern of behavior from CDPR and they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt.
 

Brinbe

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
58,366
Terana
I don't think this is on accident, there's too much of it. There's a very clear pattern of behavior from CDPR and they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt.
never said it was an accident, like at all. i don't know how you got that interpretation from my post. my point is that usually
(at least in a non-shitty dev team) there would be someone proof-reading all of this and would catch something sus like that statistics joke. but a game of this scale rushed and cobbled together like it has been? no oversight or care. wouldn't be surprised if there's more hidden in there.

cdpr are forever riding that witcher 3 goodwill and a good percentage of 'gamers' couldn't care less that they make a mockery out of most anyone that isn't white.
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,212
That Polish bubble informs their views explanation doesn't really work here. It was already really thin with TW3, and openly disavowed by the source material writer. In this case, it's not like the premise of the game is "come see this unique future as envisioned by white Eastern Europeans with no outside world knowledge".

If your ambition is to sell millions of copies worldwide depicting a multicultural society, there's really no excuse besides being shit at your job.
 

SageShinigami

Member
Oct 27, 2017
30,474
Yeah, a lot of the material is an extrapolation of his original work, which was based on 80s/early 90s tropes. It's pretty shitty, but then again, when your majority of your creative department is made up of a single demographic in Poland who barely interact with minorities beyond tired pop-culture icons this is the expected result.

This. They should've stuck to making games set in fantasy worlds if they weren't going to do more research or hire more diverse workers.
 

cartographer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,007
not surprised. there's probably a whole bunch of that kind of garbage in there. they were prob writing a bunch of shit during crunch with no oversight or care.
Probably not. Work flow wise, much of the dialogue and voice actor recording has likely been done for a while. Editing and changes sure, but the intent and spirit of this is something that needed to be finalized long ago and was more likely to be done in a less rushed environment compared to the games numerous technical issues and cut corners.
 

Brinbe

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
58,366
Terana
Probably not. Work flow wise, much of the dialogue and voice actor recording has likely been done for a while. Editing and changes sure, but the intent and spirit of this is something that needed to be finalized long ago and was more likely to be done in a less rushed environment compared to the games numerous technical issues and cut corners.
even less of an excuse then. not like people haven't been worried about this exact thing after the gameplay trailers years ago with the voodoo boys and other characters.

pretty much everything ppl were worried about has come to fruition. and i don't think you can just excuse things away with, oh they're polish or some bullshit like that. especially if you're gonna be doing a game like cyberpunk set in america. complete laziness.
 

Ushay

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,351
I think the diversity in their workforce is the reason for this (among other issues). CDPR I mean.
Witcher 3 had the same issue more or less.
 

blackw0lf48

Member
Jan 2, 2019
2,960
So why is almost every asian talking either like Mr. Miyagi or in that heavily accented 80s "Chinese style" from American movies?
Why is the woman in my screenshot wearing a Vietnamese farmer hat and also talking like that?
Why is the only option that I can ask outside of the quest one whether the Sashimi is fresh?
Why did Kabuki somehow got "Old and rusty" when Chinese overtook it?

Have you got to Act 2 yet?
 

Everill

Banned
Dec 2, 2018
401
fuck CDPR, not surprised it was as bad/worse then it seemed from the trailers...but still it's sad and it sucks
 

Templeusox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,243
Like, was Pondsmith kept at arm's length so that he wasn't kept aware and was unable to act on the bigotry that was being included in the game by CD Projekt Red? Was CD Projekt Red aware that they could use his reputation to shield themselves from criticism and tried to use him that way?
I'm sure he had some advisory input. But it's more likely to me that he got a nice check to prevent him from speaking ill of the adaptation and allow CDPR to attach the creator of the property to the game for PR purposes.
 

ty_hot

Banned
Dec 14, 2017
7,176
I watched very little because the game didnt grab my interest, but it was clear they would go with the most stereotypical way possible with the game. Extremely tone deaf.
 

Radline

Member
Oct 28, 2017
925
The instant I saw the thread of the game's transphobia, I had been waiting weeks, if not months, for the day where moments like this in the game would come to light up to release. And now, here we are.

There are no excuses for CDPR to cling to.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,004
This picture is inaccurate because 2077's portrayal of the future is grimy and unattractive. The technological advancements don't really have that sense of awe for me and come across as nightmarish. The body modification stuff feels more confronting than how it was represented in Deus Ex - a much more WOW! COOL FUTURE game. I actually wish there was some 'WOW! COOL FUTURE' stuff in there because what I'm playing ain't attractive.

Lol, no.

Deus Ex has far more depth than 2077.
 

Lyng

Editor at Popaco.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,206
1. It's a closed question.
2. I did, I even mastered C2077 game with the original rulebook in the 90s.
3. It's not the problem, you don't keep Lovecraft's frontal racism when you adapt it.
4. At least bring proper and documented exemples that could eventually lead to a discussion.

Clearly you lack context. Another user was accused of being racist simply because he said there where issues with the RPG as well and that the author of said RPG was heavily involved in the creative process of the videogame. I objected to that. It's not racist to have issues with pondsmith original game, and at no point was anyone excusing cdpr.
 

Sails

Member
Oct 27, 2017
240
This picture is inaccurate because 2077's portrayal of the future is grimy and unattractive. The technological advancements don't really have that sense of awe for me and come across as nightmarish.
I haven't played it or really looked much at it, but is the implication in CP2077 that there are no areas of society that are clean and attractive? I figured it was just the Night City or whatever.
 
Oct 27, 2017
8,692
Sure are a lot of people who bought it to report all of this though. The less I hear about this game the better. Still wish Keanu stepped up to speak out against it.
 

Lyng

Editor at Popaco.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,206
I haven't played it or really looked much at it, but is the implication in CP2077 that there are no areas of society that are clean and attractive? I figured it was just the Night City or whatever.

The world is very much portrayed as a terrible place. But the way minorities especially trans and Asian minorities are portrayed comes of as transphobic and racist more than anything else. And the GTA style humour hurts any attempt at a deeper message. The main story is a cool futuristic action story without anything meaningful to say.
 

WhtR88t

Member
May 14, 2018
4,587
If you want. But on a slightly serious note most of the voice actors would just get replaced pretty quickly if they actually tried doing something about anything . As we saw with that voice actor strike a few years ago
I don't know, Keanu has a pretty big platform and I think him walking out because of racist, transphobic game development would be a pretty big deal.
 
Oct 25, 2019
590
Yeh, this game ain't worth the money or the time as a consumer.

CDPR seems to be going out of its way to embrace and show off just how crude and exclusionist they can be with this game. Call it ignorance if you want, but this stuff isn't coming from a good, well intentioned place with CDPR.
 

CloudWolf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,626
Is it really like that? I have not heard people talk about the quest & am legit curious about what commentary it offers if any.
Haven't played the game myself, so I can't comment on it from my own experience, but from what I've read and heard the game uses common themes from cyberpunk media mostly as set dressing and has very little to say of itself.

I mean, you can even kinda see it in the way CDPR has handled the marketing. The game features your standard "big evil megacorps", yet the PR of Cyberpunk 2077 is happily exchanging jokes with Elon Musk on Twitter.
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,212
Clearly you lack context. Another user was accused of being racist simply because he said there where issues with the RPG as well and that the author of said RPG was heavily involved in the creative process of the videogame.
This is such a bad understanding of the thread and a dumb hill to die on.