CDPR is a transphobic company. It's time we stop making excuses for them.

[EatChildren]

Thank you both for making use of it. Really kind and I'm glad that trans people in Poland and those working to uplift and protect them will be getting more support.

Click to shrink...

That's my reasoning. I still want to play the game, and am in a luxurious position where I'm not paying CDPR for my entertainment. Rather than keep it neutral I'd rather someone else get the benefit of what would have been my financial support. I'm endlessly wary of charities for obvious reasons. Working for a non-for-profit social service organisation myself, and having dealt with others, it's sometimes hard to decipher between those doing actual good work, with strong leadership and infrastructure, and those that either mean well but aren't organised enough to spend resources wisely, and those that are just scams or have insidious ties.

Trans-Fuzja seems like the real deal. And while support for the trans community in my own country is just as important, as it is others, the context here is Poland and so they seem like, by far, the best choice. Thanks again for bringing them to my attention.

 

[anariel]

I guess Poland can use a donation a lot more than Germany at the moment - ended up making my donation towards the site you suggested, thanks Kyuuji

Click to shrink...

That's my reasoning. I still want to play the game, and am in a luxurious position where I'm not paying CDPR for my entertainment. Rather than keep it neutral I'd rather someone else get the benefit of what would have been my financial support. I'm endlessly wary of charities for obvious reasons. Working for a non-for-profit social service organisation myself, and having dealt with others, it's sometimes hard to decipher between those doing actual good work, with strong leadership and infrastructure, and those that either mean well but aren't organised enough to spend resources wisely, and those that are just scams or have insidious ties.

Trans-Fuzja seems like the real deal. And while support for the trans community in my own country is just as important, as it is others, the context here is Poland and so they seem like, by far, the best choice. Thanks again for bringing them to my attention.

Click to shrink...

Just wanted to pop in and say, sincerely, thank you for your donation.

 

[Hilarious_Bearious]

I just sent some pocket money to Trans-fuzja too. I was really moved by Beth Cyra 's post yesterday, and wanted to do something practical to help, even if it's not much.

If I receive this game as a gift for Christmas, or I receive a cash gift, I'll send some more money their way.

 

[Lamptramp]

That's some nice actions people. Thanks.

 

[Gabe]

So, i have been trying to follow this thread as much as i can, as well as obviously reading here and there the Night City thread, but i lack the time to read every single post, so if an answer to my question has been presented already i apologize.

Since these issues wouldn't have hit me if i didn't read them here or online in general, i wanted to check as many articles as i could from transgender writers or, more in general, people talking about these issues from a transgender perspective. And as a poster suggested in a previous post, it-s something that now i-ll keep in mind. I guess it's my way to say good job on making the thread and informing me.

With that said, i have to admit that something still escapes my mind about the Chromanticore ad (specifically INGAME since many of the articles i mentioned have been written way before the actual real life soda cans were even a thing).

In every piece i've read there are two parts: one is presenting the problems with it and the second is offering a solution.

But here's the catch, i have yet to see a solution.

That's because every time i see the same exact line being reported everywhere, that being (paraphrasing for obvious reasons as everyone writes it in a slightly different way, the juice is the same):
"It's clear that game companies that want to include transgender people need to either hire one or at least consult with us when it comes to proper representation"

Let me explain why i fail in seeing a solution in that.
Also, apologies in advance for using a trivial problem as an example, it's not meant to put the two things on the same level, but it's relatively fresh in people's mind and the structure of what happened is an easier visual example for my question.

After the first Sonic the movie trailer came out, the outrage for the design was pretty loud. But more than that: it took the community literally between 3 to 7 minutes to start posting redesigns that would fix what they considered the problem.

You can see the same thing when female characters get criticized for their "armors" consisting in a thong and a bra or stuff like that, some people always come up with different designs or examples. Some of which are fucking amazing, tbh.

So here's my question for you all:

Let's assume i'm the designer in charge of the poster ads inside the game.
Given that a good 50% of the total amount of ads is hypersexualized due to the lore of the world itself. And that no gender/sex/race/religion/whateveryouwant is safe from it (trust me on this).

I'm tasked with including some transgender people in said ads
I now do exactly what it was suggested and reach out to the transgender community, in this case everyone in here, to consult and ask for advice.
Is there or what would be a good example or an idea for an hypersexualized ad that includes a transgender person?

Thanks for your time.
(sorry for eventual typos, i'm kinda busy and typing fast)

 

[Kyuuji]

So, i have been trying to follow this thread as much as i can, as well as obviously reading here and there the Night City thread, but i lack the time to read every single post, so if an answer to my question has been presented already i apologize.

Since these issues wouldn't have hit me if i didn't read them here or online in general, i wanted to check as many articles as i could from transgender writers or, more in general, people talking about these issues from a transgender perspective. And as a poster suggested in a previous post, it-s something that now i-ll keep in mind. I guess it's my way to say good job on making the thread and informing me.

With that said, i have to admit that something still escapes my mind about the Chromanticore ad (specifically INGAME since many of the articles i mentioned have been written way before the actual real life soda cans were even a thing).

In every piece i've read there are two parts: one is presenting the problems with it and the second is offering a solution.

But here's the catch, i have yet to see a solution.

That's because every time i see the same exact line being reported everywhere, that being (paraphrasing for obvious reasons as everyone writes it in a slightly different way, the juice is the same):
"It's clear that game companies that want to include transgender people need to either hire one or at least consult with us when it comes to proper representation"

Let me explain why i fail in seeing a solution in that.
Also, apologies in advance for using a trivial problem as an example, it's not meant to put the two things on the same level, but it's relatively fresh in people's mind and the structure of what happened is an easier visual example for my question.

After the first Sonic the movie trailer came out, the outrage for the design was pretty loud. But more than that: it took the community literally between 3 to 7 minutes to start posting redesigns that would fix what they considered the problem.

You can see the same thing when female characters get criticized for their "armors" consisting in a thong and a bra or stuff like that, some people always come up with different designs or examples. Some of which are fucking amazing, tbh.

So here's my question for you all:

Let's assume i'm the designer in charge of the poster ads inside the game.
Given that a good 50% of the total amount of ads is hypersexualized due to the lore of the world itself. And that no gender/sex/race/religion/whateveryouwant is safe from it (trust me on this).

I'm tasked with including some transgender people in said ads
I now do exactly what it was suggested and reach out to the transgender community, in this case everyone in here, to consult and ask for advice.
Is there or what would be a good example or an idea for an hypersexualized ad that includes a transgender person?

Thanks for your time.
(sorry for eventual typos, i'm kinda busy and typing fast)

Click to shrink...

You're enforcing a rule that there has to be a fetishized trans character in the advertising and I'm not sure why - especially with no(?) form of counterbalance with well constructed trans characters, which is something that's naturally reinforced on the cis side with most characters in games being cis. Even running with it, you don't have to create a caricature of trans bodies in order to do so, nor relate them to beasts or infer our identities are frivolous.

 

[rras1994]

You're enforcing a rule that there has to be a fetishized trans character in the advertising and I'm not sure why - especially with no(?) form of counterbalance with well constructed trans characters, which is something that's naturally reinforced on the cis side with most characters in games being cis. Even running with it, you don't have to create a caricature of trans bodies in order to do so, nor relate them to beasts or infer our identities are frivolous.

Click to shrink...

I'm also not entirely sure why he says hiring a trans person as a consultant isn't a solution either? Does he expect them just to do it for free?

 

[Gabe]

You're enforcing a rule that there has to be a fetishized trans character in the advertising and I'm not sure why - especially with no(?) form of counterbalance with well constructed trans characters, which is something that's naturally reinforced on the cis side with most characters in games being cis. Even running with it, you don't have to create a caricature of trans bodies in order to do so, nor relate them to beasts or infer our identities are frivolous.

Click to shrink...

I'm enforcing a rule that is an equalizer for everyone, no matter what, due to the lore of the product.
It's like if i made a game where every character, no matter what, has 4 arms because that's how that world is.

As for there being no counterbalance, you correctly put the "?" in your post, the consensus about that part is gonna come out only after the game releases and people had time to see for themselves.
But if it is a pre-requisite for the eventual answer, let's assume (because in my hypotesis, if i was consulting with you for a design, i would obviously be consulting with you for character construction as well) that there are in fact well constructed trans characters, what would the answer to my question be?


EDIT:

I'm also not entirely sure why he says hiring a trans person as a consultant isn't a solution either? Does he expect them just to do it for free?

Click to shrink...

Please don't misrepresent what i said. I think i was pretty clear in both the question and intent.

 

[Kyuuji]

I'm enforcing a rule that is an equalizer for everyone, no matter what, due to the lore of the product.
It's like if i made a game where every character, no matter what, has 4 arms because that's how that world is.

As for there being no counterbalance, you correctly put the "?" in your post, the consensus about that part is gonna come out only after the game releases and people had time to see for themselves.
But if it is a pre-requisite for the eventual answer, let's assume (because in my hypotesis, if i was consulting with you for a design, i would obviously be consulting with you for character construction as well) that there are in fact well constructed trans characters, what would the answer to my question be?


EDIT:



Please don't misrepresent what i said. I think i was pretty clear in both the question and intent.

Click to shrink...

You're enforcing one rule that's an equaliser in an otherwise unequal playing field, which is odd. I also ventured into the answer with the rest of my post.

 

[rras1994]

I'm enforcing a rule that is an equalizer for everyone, no matter what, due to the lore of the product.
It's like if i made a game where every character, no matter what, has 4 arms because that's how that world is.

As for there being no counterbalance, you correctly put the "?" in your post, the consensus about that part is gonna come out only after the game releases and people had time to see for themselves.
But if it is a pre-requisite for the eventual answer, let's assume (because in my hypotesis, if i was consulting with you for a design, i would obviously be consulting with you for character construction as well) that there are in fact well constructed trans characters, what would the answer to my question be?


EDIT:



Please don't misrepresent what i said. I think i was pretty clear in both the question and intent.

Click to shrink...

No, you weren't clear. At all. Your post is literally they have to do it that way cus lore says so but the lore is something that could be changed. You then posted about someone saying "why couldn't they just hire a trans consultant" and say that's not doable. But there's no reason that's not doable at all??

 

[Gabe]

You're enforcing one rule that's an equaliser in an otherwise unequal playing field, which is odd. I also ventured into the answer with the rest of my post.

Click to shrink...

I'm not sure i understand the red part part, could you elaborate a bit?
As for the second part, i guess you are talking about not going into the ridiculous side of things (the uber dick). To which i i can agree, i mean, i'm not saying it's "good" representation. What i'm asking is...i don't know, pretend you're the artist, how would you remake that ad? And i ask YOU because as i explained previously i wouldn't have thought that it was an offensive image if it wasn't for you and other people talking about it, so i'm clearly not the one with the answer.

EDIT: To further clarify, i guess what escapes me is how can it an unequal playing field if everyone gets the same treatment, there's tons of hypersexualized ads for every flavor in the game. No exceptions.

No, you weren't clear. At all. Your post is literally they have to do it that way cus lore says so but the lore is something that could be changed. You then posted about someone saying "why couldn't they just hire a trans consultant" and say that's not doable. But there's no reason that's not doable at all??

Click to shrink...

My post LITERALLY never said they can't hire trans consultants.

 

[rras1994]

I'm not sure i understand the red part part, could you elaborate a bit?
As for the second part, i guess you are talking about not going into the ridiculous side of things (the uber dick). To which i i can agree, i mean, i'm not saying it's "good" representation. What i'm asking is...i don't know, pretend you're the artist, how would you remake that ad? And i ask YOU because as i explained previously i wouldn't have thought that it was an offensive image if it wasn't for you and other people talking about it, so i'm clearly not the one with the answer.



My post LITERALLY never said they can't hire trans consultants.

Click to shrink...

You said hiring a trans consultant isn't a solution in that? It is? You can't make a diverse game without including diverse voices, these things happen because there isn't diverse voices or because the diverse voices weren't listened to. It's not for tran people randomly on the internet to come up with a direct solution for CDPR, that's work that CDPR should be getting on their own and paying for. It's enough that trans people pointed out the issue to them in the first place.

 

[Kyuuji]

I'm not sure i understand the red part part, could you elaborate a bit?
As for the second part, i guess you are talking about not going into the ridiculous side of things (the uber dick). To which i i can agree, i mean, i'm not saying it's "good" representation. What i'm asking is...i don't know, pretend you're the artist, how would you remake that ad? And i ask YOU because as i explained previously i wouldn't have thought that it was an offensive image if it wasn't for you and other people talking about it, so i'm clearly not the one with the answer.

Click to shrink...

It means that the standing of representation around cis characters in games and Cyberpunk 2077 is never going to be equal. From the overt to the minutiae, from those exclusively in the game to how it influences external factors. So you're only enforcing a single rule as an equalizer in a field that is heavily unequal in almost all aspects. There isn't a need to guess either. The relation to a beast and the frivolous nature of identities that's inferred are from the accompanying text. It's also a shallow perspective in general (as you'd expect from a caricature) – instead of sexualising a trans woman as you would a cis woman but having the model be referenced as trans elsewhere in the game.

This is without touching on how this..

As for there being no counterbalance, you correctly put the "?" in your post, the consensus about that part is gonna come out only after the game releases and people had time to see for themselves.

Click to shrink...

..isn't really as simplistic either. As they've been content to showcase and lean on the advert pre-release without offering insight into how trans themes or characters are handled. Nor is the angle of "you need to offer a solution" really worthy of merit because you would need to break apart so many factors of the game and rebuild them if you wanted to tackle this successfuly that you're effectively asking me how I would approach a Cyberpunk game that wanted to touch on trans themes, as opposed to simply how I would design a fetishized advert of someone trans.

 

[Gabe]

It means that the standing of representation around cis characters in games and Cyberpunk 2077 is never going to be equal. From the overt to the minutiae, from those exclusively in the game to how it influences external factors. So you're only enforcing a single rule as an equalizer in a field that is heavily unequal in almost all aspects. There isn't a need to guess either. The relation to a beast and the frivolous nature of identities that's inferred are from the accompanying text. It's also a shallow perspective in general (as you'd expect from a caricature) – instead of sexualising a trans woman as you would a cis woman but having the model be referenced as trans elsewhere in the game.

This is without touching on how this isn't really as simplistic either. As they've been content to showcase and lean on the advert pre-release without offering insight into how trans themes or characters are handled. Nor is the angle of "you need to offer a solution" really worthy of merit because you would need to break apart so many factors of the game and rebuild them if you wanted to tackle this successfuly that you're effectively asking me how I would approach a Cyberpunk game that wanted to touch on trans themes, as opposed to simply how I would design a fetishized advert of someone trans.

Click to shrink...

Thanks for clarifying, however the red part is exactly why i re-asked the question under the hypotethical pretence that the game had the best possible representation in character construction due to (sorry for the repetition) hypotetical previous consultation.
By your previous post i assumed you had an answer had those been the given circumstances. My bad.

Thanks anyway.

 

[Kyuuji]

Thanks for clarifying, however the red part is exactly why i re-asked the question under the hypotethical pretence that the game had the best possible representation in character construction due to (sorry for the repetition) hypotetical previous consultation.
By your previous post i assumed you had an answer had those been the given circumstances. My bad.

Thanks anyway.

Click to shrink...

Sure. I'm just clarifying that even then things aren't equal. I also gave an answer in each case, so it's strange you act like I haven't. I'm just also pointing out that you can't easily separate these things out to "fix" without addressing other factors as well, and acknowledging the disparity between cis and trans people both in and outside of games, and how media influences real-world consequences for trans people.

 

[Beth Cyra]

I just sent some pocket money to Trans-fuzja too. I was really moved by Beth Cyra 's post yesterday, and wanted to do something practical to help, even if it's not much.

If I receive this game as a gift for Christmas, or I receive a cash gift, I'll send some more money their way.

Click to shrink...

Haha a lot of my posts here are rage filled shouting at clouds.

That said I am grateful that you took the time and effort to help folks like me with your donations.

That said if you get X Mas money or what not, don't feel the need to donate. We appreciate the help but never want others to lose out on their own lives, giving of yourself is great but when you already have it's not wrong to enjoy your holiday in the way you want.

 

[Deleted member 17184]

I think what Gabe was trying to ask you, Kyuuji, was what would be the best course of action if a cis boss came to a cis artist asking them to design an ad featuring a trans person in a hypersexualized manner. Gabe, I assume you mean this situation you can't quit the job because you need the money or something. Just to go to the most extreme point. I'm no artist, but if I were, this would be my thought process:

1- Suggest them to give the task to a trans artist in the team. If there is none, suggest we hire one.

2- If 1 isn't a possibility, I'd ask permission to consult with trans people (having them sign an NDA and whatever needed). My first option would be trans artists, and if that wasn't possible for some reason, I'd try and locate people in the community who have worked on ads in some way (being involved in the production or being the model).

3- If, for some bizarre reason, I can't consult with anyone, I'd still look up things to avoid when portraying trans characters, as there's plenty of material on that.

4- If I make the ad in a respectful matter, but my boss rejects it because they actually intend to have something transphobic, then at that point I'd consider quitting the job. I'd draw the line at having to create something transphobic.

To the trans community reading this, if there's anything I could improve in my thought process, I'm willing to listen.

 

[Kyuuji]

Sure Khrn. I already said the parts that I see as being completely unecessary and that it needn't be something shallow or a caricature. You could sexualise a trans woman in the same manner that you sexualise a cis woman but have reference to the model being trans elsewhere in the game. You could go for challenging gender and fashion norms if you wanted to be more suggestive. The truth is also that if it were my role to create a sexualised advert featuring someone trans, I'd need to do more research on the history than that I've already done. Since these are themes with a significant history, and actions that run the risk of having material consequence to trans people in real life.

 

[Beth Cyra]

I think what Gabe was trying to ask you, Kyuuji, was what would be the best course of action if a cis boss came to a cis artist asking them to design an ad featuring a trans person in a hypersexualized manner. Gabe, I assume you mean this situation you can't quit the job because you need the money or something. Just to go to the most extreme point. I'm no artist, but if I were, this would be my thought process:

1- Suggest them to give the task to a trans artist in the team. If there is none, suggest we hire one.

2- If 1 isn't a possibility, I'd ask permission to consult with trans people (having them sign an NDA and whatever needed). My first option would be trans artists, and if that wasn't possible for some reason, I'd try and locate people in the community who have worked on ads in some way (being involved in the production or being the model).

3- If, for some bizarre reason, I can't consult with anyone, I'd still look up things to avoid when portraying trans characters, as there's plenty of material on that.

4- If I make the ad in a respectful matter, but my boss rejects it because they actually intend to have something transphobic, then at that point I'd consider quitting the job. I'd draw the line at having to create something transphobic.

To the trans community reading this, if there's anything I could improve in my thought process, I'm willing to listen.

Click to shrink...

You're not wrong.

The thing is and which Gabe misses is you can't by it's very nature make a highly sexualized add about a TransWoman/Man with out it being TransPhobic.

Let me break it down for everypony here.

Women in adds get sexualized all the time we know this.

How does this happen? Focus on the Hips, the breast, the face, the butt the legs...by breaking them down into parts and really destroying the personality.

All that said...what is a TransWoman? Well if we go by the Medical thought Process as accepted by the World Health Org we are indeed women.

Now if we are women, and we look at how women are broken down into parts you really start to see the issue.

Women in ads be it real life or the future will never be used to sell (unless it's to a niche audience) by giving them a Penis, even if you try and say it's hers or whatever.

Putting a giant dick on a woman will always other them compared to other women that surround them. To go out of the way to make that one woman so different than other women is the transphobic bit.

 

[Gabe]

I think what Gabe was trying to ask you, Kyuuji, was what would be the best course of action if a cis boss came to a cis artist asking them to design an ad featuring a trans person in a hypersexualized manner.

Click to shrink...

Yes and no, meaning that i was legit trying to make an hypotetical consultation happen, this is because due to my job i am in contact with several great artists and i kind of wanted to try and see what they would come up with if i had some clear cut examples from here.

But i can understand that it's difficult due to the fact that in a "perfect world" scenario, this discussion wouldn't even need to exist because you could literally be as offensive or indelicate as you want and nobody would feel offended and threatened because "perfect world"...kind of an Uroboros.

 

[paranoodle]

Gabe the thing with "how could a trans consultant design a hypersexualized ad involving a trans person without it being transphobic" is that, even if things were somehow "equal" in representation in the game itself (which feels so removed from reality it seems like a weird hypothetical, but still), things in real life still are unequal to a degree where there's no way for it not to be transphobic, because even in a game with great representation that doesn't change that the hypersexualization and fetishization of trans people (and trans women specifically) is an active, rampant everyday problem in the real world.

because if you want to make it clear that one of the ads is about a trans woman (without just having the trans part mentioned later) then you're going to have to focus on the physical differences between a cis woman and a trans woman and there's no way to really put emphasis on that without just contributing to fetishization or transphobia, even if you don't just focus on penises as the "difference" (which isn't even always one!)

it's like you said in your last post, in an ideal world this might have gone differently but every step is so far removed from an ideal world right now (things aren't perfect irl, there wasn't an appropriate amount of trans consultants, and they went out of their way to be transphobic past that) that it feels like a far-fetched hypothetical and people react negatively because the harm isn't hypothetical right now.

 

[Deleted member 17184]

Sure Khrn. I already said the parts that I see as being completely unecessary and that it needn't be something shallow or a caricature. You could sexualise a trans woman in the same manner that you sexualise a cis woman but have reference to the model being trans elsewhere in the game. You could go for challenging gender and fashion norms if you wanted to be more suggestive. The truth is also that if it were my role to create a sexualised advert featuring someone trans, I'd need to do more research on the history than that I've already done. Since these are themes with a significant history, and actions that run the risk of having material consequence to trans people in real life.

Click to shrink...

You're not wrong.

The thing is and which Gabe misses is you can't by it's very nature make a highly sexualized add about a TransWoman/Man with out it being TransPhobic.

Let me break it down for everypony here.

Women in adds get sexualized all the time we know this.

How does this happen? Focus on the Hips, the breast, the face, the butt the legs...by breaking them down into parts and really destroying the personality.

All that said...what is a TransWoman? Well if we go by the Medical thought Process as accepted by the World Health Org we are indeed women.

Now if we are women, and we look at how women are broken down into parts you really start to see the issue.

Women in ads be it real life or the future will never be used to sell (unless it's to a niche audience) by giving them a Penis, even if you try and say it's hers or whatever.

Putting a giant dick on a woman will always other them compared to other women that surround them. To go out of the way to make that one woman so different than other women is the transphobic bit.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with both of you. I do think it's possible to have a suggestive (read not hypersexualized) ad that doesn't focus on genitalia and the text involved in that ad. But to accomplish that, the artist responsible has to do a proper research into the history of these ads.

Yes and no, meaning that i was legit trying to make an hypotetical consultation happen, this is because due to my job i am in contact with several great artists and i kind of wanted to try and see what they would come up with if i had some clear cut examples from here.

But i can understand that it's difficult due to the fact that in a "perfect world" scenario, this discussion wouldn't even need to exist because you could literally be as offensive or indelicate as you want and nobody would feel offended and threatened because "perfect world"...kind of an Uroboros.

Click to shrink...

I think it's more about doing the proper research and make sure you cover all bases.

The thing I often see with the defense being "it's an ugly world meant to be cruel" is that this is also a world that actually encourages body changes. The "ugly" isn't what is ugly in that fictional world, but what is in our real lives now.

 

[Beth Cyra]

Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with both of you. I do think it's possible to have a suggestive (read not hypersexualized) ad that doesn't focus on genitalia and the text involved in that ad. But to accomplish that, the artist responsible has to do a proper research into the history of these ads.

I think it's more about doing the proper research and make sure you cover all bases.

The thing I often see with the defense being "it's an ugly world meant to be cruel" is that this is also a world that actually encourages body changes. The "ugly" isn't what is ugly in that fictional world, but what is in our real lives now.

Click to shrink...

This ad could have been fine, hell keep her Trans.

Like you could even fetishize this..eww I hate that I typed it. We as TransWomen are not sacred and above the trash that CisWomen deal with on an every day basis.

Context as with everything in life is about Context. The issue is we don't see her among a group of photos of other's women. Ya want to have a TransWoman be used to sell sex? Fine then do it like this.

Show her in every day clothes, out running with her girls. Getting married, getting coffee while fixing her gf's beanie, and then have them raving and keep her as is, giant penis and all. Just don't focus on the penis and be like *Gee Golly Whitkers can you see their massive COOK*.

We don't get Context and while some defenders of it will say that we need to wait for the the game, context is they are selling this game based on this, and the lack of context being available means that they and we both have to operate on real world context for the material.

 

[Deleted member 17184]

This ad could have been fine, hell keep her Trans.

Like you could even fetishize this..eww I hate that I typed it. We as TransWomen are not sacred and above the trash that CisWomen deal with on an every day basis.

Context as with everything in life is about Context. The issue is we don't see her among a group of photos of other's women. Ya want to have a TransWoman be used to sell sex? Fine then do it like this.

Show her in every day clothes, out running with her girls. Getting married, getting coffee while fixing her gf's beanie, and then have them raving and keep her as is, giant penis and all. Just don't focus on the penis and be like *Gee Golly Whitkers can you see their massive COOK*.

We don't get Context and while some defenders of it will say that we need to wait for the the game, context is they are selling this game based on this, and the lack of context being available means that they and we both have to operate on real world context for the material.

Click to shrink...

Yep. Not to mention the text in the ad.

To anyone reading this thinking about waiting to see how it is in the game, remember the official Cyberpunk 2077 Twitter account highlighted a cis cosplayer using this ad with a glowing penis, and CDPR did nothing about it.

 

[cvbas]

Hey, just wanted to leave a quick comment of appreciation before the game comes out. I'm playing Cyberpunk 2077 and hope to engage with it critically, but this thread (and other posts across the forum) did help me learn/understand new things that I didn't even know I didn't know.

Thanks Kyuuji for your tireless efforts. And let's hope the final game has at least some positive trans representation -- not that it'd make up for the rest, but at least it wouldn't make things worse.

 

[Kyuuji]

Hey, just wanted to leave a quick comment of appreciation before the game comes out. I'm playing Cyberpunk 2077 and hope to engage with it critically, but this thread (and other posts across the forum) did help me learn/understand new things that I didn't even know I didn't know.

Thanks Kyuuji for your tireless efforts. And let's hope the final game has at least some positive trans representation -- not that it'd make up for the rest, but at least it wouldn't make things worse.

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Appreciate that in turn Cubas, thank you for engaging with the points and taking the time to consider and understand them.

 

[Kyrona]

Yes and no, meaning that i was legit trying to make an hypotetical consultation happen, this is because due to my job i am in contact with several great artists and i kind of wanted to try and see what they would come up with if i had some clear cut examples from here.

But i can understand that it's difficult due to the fact that in a "perfect world" scenario, this discussion wouldn't even need to exist because you could literally be as offensive or indelicate as you want and nobody would feel offended and threatened because "perfect world"...kind of an Uroboros.

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I think the biggest thing here is that we are assuming that chromanticore and its 'mix it up slogan' are crucial to this ad, in which case the issue is already flawed and likely leading down a bad path from conception. Do you have to have that in your product? Are you trying to say something with it? If not, there are hundreds of other ideas that you could instead use. There is no way to approach something like that without at least drawing parallels to real life situations and sensitivities, and that is something that the commissioner should be aware of at conception or the first failings are on them.


The reason why we can't come up with an alternative as easily as sonic is because the situations are completely different. Sonic is a known character with source material. Trans people are so varied and exist in many different stages of transition, so it is impossible for us to say, "this is what they should look like". To do so would be a disservice to our brothers and sisters, and would potentially be callous and harmful.

Merely consulting a trans person on the advertisement isn't even likely to be enough, because we come from all backgrounds and there are some who don't view these things as an issue, and don't try to understand the feelings of their brothers and sisters. They think the others are just being sensitive- not understanding the various backgrounds others come from, and lacking a mindset that keeps in mind the wellbeing of the community as a whole. It is an extension of the 'Fuck you, I've got mine' set of ideals, where they think the rest of us should just suck it up because it isn't an issue to them. This is a recurring issue within segments of our community, sadly.

If I had to do a messaging campaign based on the flawed premise provided, I would probably do a double sided ad, one featuring a side profile shot of a person presenting male, the other presenting female, both with similar facial features. I would try to frame it in a way so the ad leads the viewer outside of the game to understand issues involved with dysphoria in daily lives, to try to promote understanding of trans people and non-cis members of society in their own lives. In-game I would hope to show some of the ramifications a society where changing parts or entire bodies on a whim for fun, not because it is who you feel you are, could lead to a loss of sense of self. I still feel as though even that has its own problems, and would need to workshop it more to ensure it maintains sensitivity with the communities affected by it.

But I would never, ever go about it by adding a giant cock and calling it a day. That has no message, it has no meaning. It is edgy trash without any purpose, and actively harms others with its disregard for any of the things mentioned.

 

[Brainfreeze]

That's a kind thought Namikaze1 and xyla ~ you could donate to a local trans charity in your respective countries, or here's a link to donate to one in Poland directly - http://transfuzja.org/en/artykuly/donate.htm. General info on Trans-Fuzja here. Appreciate you both popping in.

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This is a good idea, I appreciate the link. I donated.

Whether or not I purchase Cyberpunk is still dependent on impressions from trusted sources post release (I'm hoping I'll get some solid impressions on how the writers handled representation within a week of release), so I hope anyone posting in this thread who is going to play the game will share their thoughts here after the release. If it turns out the in-game writing is as tone-deaf as the marketing / managment has been - well, at least now I can know that some amount of good came from my frustrated excitement refreshing the Cyberpunk threads everyday.

 

[Hilarious_Bearious]

Haha a lot of my posts here are rage filled shouting at clouds.

That said I am grateful that you took the time and effort to help folks like me with your donations.

That said if you get X Mas money or what not, don't feel the need to donate. We appreciate the help but never want others to lose out on their own lives, giving of yourself is great but when you already have it's not wrong to enjoy your holiday in the way you want.

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As a cranky old man, I do enjoy a good cloud-yelling. I think it was the comment about "losing the fire" that hit me where I live.

I'll be fine over the holidays; I'm still sitting on a phat wad of cash from my birthday for a PS5 with all the trimmings which I don't think will happen this year *stares longingly out the window*. Oh well, I'll still have a blast playing with my toddler's Christmas presents (she's super into Hotwheels, trains and lego, it's going to be a blast).

 

[ZeoVGM]

I'm curious to see what the reaction is if the game releases and it has a lot of very noticeably problematic crap in it.

 

[Messofanego]

Hey, just wanted to leave a quick comment of appreciation before the game comes out. I'm playing Cyberpunk 2077 and hope to engage with it critically, but this thread (and other posts across the forum) did help me learn/understand new things that I didn't even know I didn't know.

Thanks Kyuuji for your tireless efforts. And let's hope the final game has at least some positive trans representation -- not that it'd make up for the rest, but at least it wouldn't make things worse.

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Hi Cubas, hope you're able to cover this topic critically with your experience of the game. Thank you.

 

[Beth Cyra]

As a cranky old man, I do enjoy a good cloud-yelling. I think it was the comment about "losing the fire" that hit me where I live.

I'll be fine over the holidays; I'm still sitting on a phat wad of cash from my birthday for a PS5 with all the trimmings which I don't think will happen this year *stares longingly out the window*. Oh well, I'll still have a blast playing with my toddler's Christmas presents (she's super into Hotwheels, trains and lego, it's going to be a blast).

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Lol well that is good to hear.

Daughter just entered her first big electronic phase and we just left the Lego's (which I'm sure she will return to one day) so we can totally relate.

Thank you again for your generosity and I hope y'all have a smile filled holiday period!

I'm curious to see what the reaction is if the game releases and it has a lot of very noticeably problematic crap in it.

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After finding out Ms Leigh was working on the title I seriously hope not. Maybe things go better than hoped, CDPR has shit marketing that needs improved and everyone can love it and my favorite VA gets the even more of the recognition she deserves.

 

[LegendX48]

Wait, I'm out of the loop, what's with Cherami Leigh? She yet another in the line of bigot, asshole voice actors?


That aside, I've been looking around but does anyone know of any california trans groups or places to donate to? Want to find some places to share/promote with friends on the 10th

 

[Beth Cyra]

Wait, I'm out of the loop, what's with Cherami Leigh? She yet another in the line of bigot, asshole voice actors?


That aside, I've been looking around but does anyone know of any california trans groups or places to donate to? Want to find some places to share/promote with friends on the 10th

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No absolutely not.

I found out the other day she is the Female version of V. I don't follow her career so I was out of the loop, it just so happens I adored her work so much as Rhea and Makoto I hope she gets more roles and she gets to shine and it's not lost in the fallout of the company doing anything else dumb.

 

[crienne]

Wait, I'm out of the loop, what's with Cherami Leigh? She yet another in the line of bigot, asshole voice actors?


That aside, I've been looking around but does anyone know of any california trans groups or places to donate to? Want to find some places to share/promote with friends on the 10th

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The LA LGBT Center is probably the biggest one I can think of. The Trevor Project is also based in LA IIRC.

 

[Kyrona]

Wait, I'm out of the loop, what's with Cherami Leigh? She yet another in the line of bigot, asshole voice actors?


That aside, I've been looking around but does anyone know of any california trans groups or places to donate to? Want to find some places to share/promote with friends on the 10th

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Transgender Law Center is also based in Cali. It is also trans led, and I haven't heard anything bad about it thus far.

 

[Dmax3901]

One thing I always come back to with this stuff is no-one would notice it's absence. Like, if all the sexualised ads in this game were dialed down 5 notches and were always that way from the very first trailer, there's no way #gamers or anyone playing the game would be walking around Night City going "hmmm, these ads just aren't gross enough for me, I'm not sure... is this a dystopia?"

They're entirely unnecessary. Especially at this level of saturation (both in the game itself and in the marketing).

 

[crienne]

One thing I always come back to with this stuff is no-one would notice it's absence. Like, if all the sexualised ads in this game were dialed down 5 notches and were always that way from the very first trailer, there's no way #gamers or anyone playing the game would be walking around Night City going "hmmm, these ads just aren't gross enough for me, I'm not sure... is this a dystopia?"

They're entirely unnecessary. Especially at this level of saturation (both in the game itself and in the marketing).

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I'm playing through Cloudpunk and I sure as shit don't need pixelized exploitation to know it's still dystopian.

 

[purseowner]

Why not do as they request and ask a few questions? I've taken the opportunity to ask if they're listening to feedback on the pertinent issues regarding transphobia and racism and recommend you do too.

 

[Kyrona]

Why not do as they request and ask a few questions? I've taken the opportunity to ask if they're listening to feedback on the pertinent issues regarding transphobia and racism and recommend you do too.

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I did, but twitter being twitter, I won't hold my breath on anything good coming from it. We'll see how long it takes to get targeted harassment.

 

[His Majesty]

That's a kind thought Namikaze1 and xyla ~ you could donate to a local trans charity in your respective countries, or here's a link to donate to one in Poland directly - http://transfuzja.org/en/artykuly/donate.htm. General info on Trans-Fuzja here. Appreciate you both popping in.

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I'd just like to stress that while we have mostly talked past one another in the Cyberpunk OT I do appreciate you bringing this subject to attention in the thread. Yes, there are times I wished we could just talk about the game without all this controversy but I also realize that in the end this is CDPRs own hubris. It makes me sad that you, and many others in here, cannot enjoy this game along with the rest of us for the reasons you outline in the OP. I fear I won't put my money where my mouth is with a boycott but I hope I can make a minor impact with a donation to the Polish LGBT charity. And hope that the culture at CDPR changes significantly in the future. (I also hope this post doesn't come across as insincere given how involved I've been in the Cyberpunk threads because that's not my intention at all.)

 

[Dmax3901]

Why not do as they request and ask a few questions? I've taken the opportunity to ask if they're listening to feedback on the pertinent issues regarding transphobia and racism and recommend you do too.

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Yeah basically anyone who brings up issues around transphobia in that thread is likely to be harassed and/or ignored. A cynical take, for sure, but it says a lot that even raising this issue with them is likely to make your life worse.

 

[Kyuuji]

I'd just like to stress that while we have mostly talked past one another in the Cyberpunk OT I do appreciate you bringing this subject to attention in the thread. Yes, there are times I wished we could just talk about the game without all this controversy but I also realize that in the end this is CDPRs own hubris. It makes me sad that you, and many others in here, cannot enjoy this game along with the rest of us for the reasons you outline in the OP. I fear I won't put my money where my mouth is with a boycott but I hope I can make a minor impact with a donation to the Polish LGBT charity. And hope that the culture at CDPR changes significantly in the future. (I also hope this post doesn't come across as insincere given how involved I've been in the Cyberpunk threads because that's not my intention at all.)

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I appreciate that bud, not insincere at all. I follow that wish equally and I'll make a point to echo the OP in that this isn't a call to boycott, it's an exploration of what these issues are, how frequently they have been and some context to underpin why they're a concern. An insight into why it's hard to feel hyped for the game and why many trans people can't easily approach it without inner conflict. So don't be fearful and enjoy your time, just be vocal about the issues alongside giving feedback and hopefully we can move toward a place where all of us can come at games without these concerns and frustrations. There's no need for these elements and as has been said many times, the game would not be lacking without them. The same for the company as a whole.

 

[Deleted member 47700]

Yeah basically anyone who brings up issues around transphobia in that thread is likely to be harassed and/or ignored. A cynical take, for sure, but it says a lot that even raising this issue with them is likely to make your life worse.

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Yep, just look at some of the replies to this completely benign tweet from a film critic I follow:

 

[purseowner]

Sure, CDPR aren't going to pick those questions. But there's over 1K replies to that tweet - unless you have a sizable following on Twitter, your question is going to be buried, thereby avoiding much harassment.

So the only person who will likely see it is the social media manager, but on the offchance the devs do, I see it as a useful opportunity to express the hurt and issues surrounding the game. The more of these comments there are, the more the message will be noticed. Whether they care about said takes? Well, that's another matter.

 

[Kyuuji]

Sure, CDPR aren't going to pick those questions. But there's over 1K replies to that tweet - unless you have a sizable following on Twitter, your question is going to be buried, thereby avoiding much harassment.

So the only person who will likely see it is the social media manager, but on the offchance the devs do, I see it as a useful opportunity to express the hurt and issues surrounding the game. The more of these comments there are, the more the message will be noticed. Whether they care about said takes? Well, that's another matter.

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Some of us have chuds hawk-eyeing our twitter profiles and posts here 24/7 lol, so I'm not going to stick my neck out further in that sense. Props to those that do though. I'd be in the market for a bridge if I sincerely believed they're clueless to any of this. They've had every opportunity to properly address the concerns over the past year and a half. If they suddenly find a spine then I might consider it. Their silence has been a wilful act, not one of ignorance.

 

[purseowner]

Some of us have chuds hawk-eyeing our twitter profiles and posts here 24/7 lol, so I'm not going to stick my neck out further in that regard. Props to those that do though. I'd be in the market for a bridge if I sincerely believed they're clueless to any of this. They've had every opportunity to properly address the concerns over the past year and a half. If they suddenly find a spine then I might consider the trade off worth it. Their silence has been a wilful act, not one of ignorance.

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Oh, I know, doesn't mean I'm going to stop telling them it's not okay.

(And I didn't mean you should and I'm well aware of that rural area - it was more a call to those who are less prominent within this thread to use that platform for good)

 

[Kyuuji]

Oh, I know, doesn't mean I'm going to stop telling them it's not okay.

(And I didn't mean you should and I'm well aware of that rural area - it was more a call to those who are less prominent within this thread to use that platform for good)

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All good, and I appreciate you putting it to them there. Be sure to ping if they do address it meaningfully - one can certainly hope.

 

[Kyrona]

Yeah, there's a reason I don't link my twitter or social media on here at all. There are absolutely people who would jump on any chance they could to get that information.

Not to say I don't appreciate everything you are doing purseowner, and I'll support as much as I can, but I'm already getting people giving the same tired excuses about how 'things are fine' and they have nothing to address. Arguments here can be frustrating, but we can still at least have them to some extent and hope for people to listen. But I know better than to engage with twitter. They filled Elliot's page with terf shit the second his post was made, no arguments made in that place place are going to change anyone's mind.

 

[Boldy J. Washington]

Now that the leaks are coming out I do wonder how the game's story holds up - not in terms of story but in terms of...decency. The whole cosplay/advertisement debacle is not getting my hopes up.