I'd honestly like to do the same, I don't know how some of you can even reply constantly to some of the stuff seen here, like some stuff I just laugh at, other stuff I have to walk away for a bit so I don't post something really stupid. Should probably just go back to lurking again.
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CDPR is a transphobic company. It's time we stop making excuses for them.
- Thread starter Kyuuji
- Start date
I'd honestly like to do the same, I don't know how some of you can even reply constantly to some of the stuff seen here, like some stuff I just laugh at, other stuff I have to walk away for a bit so I don't post something really stupid. Should probably just go back to lurking again.
I find it worse on reddit, personally. Yeah people are more direct about their bigotry, but it's because alot of moderators enable those behaviors and will only ban the most egregious threats. While here it's passive because being open about your bigotry gets you banned. I feel like we'd just have more shit being thrown at us if this place was moderated like alot of reddit subs are.
I've had too many arguments over LGBT+ rights in game subreddits that I play because someone made a shitty transphobic "joke", or had a bad faith "what about STRAIGHT PRIDE??????" argument, and it's a crapshoot if I get dogpiled or not.
Of course you're totally right, anything is better than nothing.
It's just frustrating to see people able to "hide" so well, or rather should I say so "poorly" i.e. its clear their intent and yet they continue. It sometimes feels better if they just had the courage to say what they mean and stand by their words.
I totally get the feeling, I'd rather people be open with it too than to feel like I have to question people's true intentions. It's just that, if people who were open about it weren't banned here, there'd be a lot more posters still here making a shitstorm. I bet it's a common feeling, wishing everyone would just be transparent to save us all the headache, but if people were allowed to be transparent without catching a ban, there would be so many more posters still here trying to fight us. It's just a disappointing situation all around.
I would disagree. The people that are outright hateful on any specific issue aren't going to change their mind after thorough debate here. Ban them and move on. People that don't post often are reading and learning and changing opinions all the time. But FYI this seems to fall under 'don't discuss forum policy' rules set for the thread.
First time posting in this thread and I am personally on the fence of buying the game. All of the examples given make sense to me. The social media non-apology is pathetic. The racial stereotypes also look lazy. I am going to wait for reviews and other discussion to see what else comes out.
When it comes to the ad, the original reasoning of the concept artist (hyper sexualizing to sell product) does make sense to me and it seems there is plenty of other examples within the game that makes that consistent. but then the cosplay contest entry was just offensive. I think the marketing team were too stupid and lazy to understand the concept or even care.
for the content creator I have mixed feelings as I have a trans colleague who I talked to in the summer who seemed excited about it but we did not discuss this specific issue. I do hope that it will eventually be patched to address the issue.
First time posting in this thread and I am personally on the fence of buying the game. All of the examples given make sense to me. The social media non-apology is pathetic. The racial stereotypes also look lazy. I am going to wait for reviews and other discussion to see what else comes out.
When it comes to the ad, the original reasoning of the concept artist (hyper sexualizing to sell product) does make sense to me and it seems there is plenty of other examples within the game that makes that consistent. but then the cosplay contest entry was just offensive. I think the marketing team were too stupid and lazy to understand the concept or even care.
for the content creator I have mixed feelings as I have a trans colleague who I talked to in the summer who seemed excited about it but we did not discuss this specific issue. I do hope that it will eventually be patched to address the issue.
As Kyuuji so well described in the OP the ads problem isn't' only "hyper-sexualization". It's all transphobic. And the cosplayer that they promoted on twitter quickly tweeted more garbage, doubling and trippling down as soon as any criticism came in.
The pronouns being linked to the pitch of voice, like it's not just out side of the game issues here? We should be way past "it's just the twitter person / marketing department".
I don't get why some are still giving them the benefit of the doubt? or holding out some sort of hope that "it'll be good in the FULL game" like... even if they had an NPC story line about someone that is trans that is done OK or well, it does not make the rest OK, it's still bad. And they as a company keeps showing no interest to improve/adjust/remove problematic things. They've had plenty of time to meet any concerns or criticism at this point but have failed to do so.
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Out of curiosity, now that a bunch of previews of the game have popped up, have any of them been written/made by someone who has played and have had these concerns about representation, trans issues etc. in mind and brought up how the game have tackled them? I know from leaked footage that the game still does that incredibly weird "tone of voice is linked to pronouns" thing, so that shit was definetly not fixed by CDPR, but I was wondering if anyone have gone deeper into the game and seen how else the game handles/misshandles these things?
I expect most to be just hype material "oh my god this game is so punk and cyber!" but I have maybe a little bit of hope that at least someone has gone in with a more critical eye.
I expect most to be just hype material "oh my god this game is so punk and cyber!" but I have maybe a little bit of hope that at least someone has gone in with a more critical eye.
When you're so privileged that microtransactions affect you personally on such a level but other real life abuse doesn't.
It's even worse because MTX don't even affect most of the people complaining. But when it comes to be angry about something that doesn't directly affect them, they choose that instead of... you know, actual treatment of people.
Maybe other people are even more of an abstraction to them than MTX. Marginalised folks are just these abstract figures to be debated about in regards to their livelihood, rights, and to be just pawns for arguments.
Not going to lie here, I was excited to play CP2077... But I don't feel like buying it today.
I would like to thank the trans community in ERA, because this is the only place were I was able to learn what is wrong with the game and the company as a whole. You just don't see anything in other sites.
Thank you!
I would like to thank the trans community in ERA, because this is the only place were I was able to learn what is wrong with the game and the company as a whole. You just don't see anything in other sites.
Thank you!
Same. I've learnt a lot from the trans community here (and also back in the old place) that made me understood more not just about the community but also about acceptance over the past 10 years or so.
Regarding the game, I've pretty much lost much of the interest since they revealed that pronouns are tied to voices and not separate selections.
I also have the feeling the game will end up being disappointing gameplay and storywise anyway🤷♂️
The animal crossing thread does not inspire confidence within me that issues regarding poc representation will be met any better on here than trans representation. The common theme seems to be addressing the easy, obvious straw man, instead of the meat of the issue. I hope everyone here will do their part to listen to any complaints they have, and help to support our friends if the need arises.
It's pretty disappointing to see that people on EtcetEra have pretty much forgotten about Chappelle's transphobic shit too.
Yeah I posted about it in two separate threads, and not one person asked about it. Some of the stuff he said is vile. He completely ignores that trans poc exist, and perpetuates very harmful stereotypes of trans people in general. It's sad because he could have been a strong voice for marginalized groups, but insists on punching downwards.
If I have to see one more person hide behind the "but it's comedy" defense I think my head is going to explode.
When I was young, Dave Chappelle was my favourite comedian. When an acquaintance of mine (who's a stand up comedian) told me Chappelle had a new Netflix special, I was so excited. That Friday I got myself a bowl of chips and a whisky, and my wife and I sat down for some laughs. By about 20 or 30 minutes in, we turned it off. Not only was it offensive, but it just wasn't even funny. Just another rich, out of touch dude ranting about rich, out of touch ideas. Needless to say, I'm not a fan anymore and won't support his new stuff.
"But it's comedy" is never a defense for punching down. Joke about your own problems and trauma all you want (it's how I cope with my own baggage, and if I offended somebody, I'd apologise and stop; l don't want to trigger somebody else). Punching down on a vulnerable group and then hiding behind "it's comedy" as an excuse is cheap and cowardly.
"But it's comedy" is never a defense for punching down. Joke about your own problems and trauma all you want (it's how I cope with my own baggage, and if I offended somebody, I'd apologise and stop; l don't want to trigger somebody else). Punching down on a vulnerable group and then hiding behind "it's comedy" as an excuse is cheap and cowardly.
I'm glad this topic exists, seeing as how I'm trans (god that feels like an awkward way to start a post). I also don't think a huge chunk of the community care about minority concerns. There was no way I was going to buy this game anyway, so my "boycott" is essentially meaningless, but I hope at least some people will keep learning stuff from the OP and other posts in this thread.
And yeah, comedy that punches down is just lazy and mean-spirited.
And yeah, comedy that punches down is just lazy and mean-spirited.
User banned (permanent): Troll account
Thank you OP. I feel truly shaken from my dogmatic slumber. Sincere humble appreciation.
Yeah I remember vaguely that he has made certain transphobic remarks or jokes but the 1st page of that thread made me wonder if I remembered wrongly.
Yeah, among the more notable excerpts that stick out.
That last one is notably awful because it shows his complete ignorance of poc trans people, in addition to punching down. The article I read that spoke the most to me about the situation is the one I link all the time: here
That last one is notably awful because it shows his complete ignorance of poc trans people, in addition to punching down. The article I read that spoke the most to me about the situation is the one I link all the time: here
Rewatching the first season of Atlanta atm and there's that one episode that was uncomfortable then and even more uncomfortable now and reminds me of that last quote. The one where the whole ep is like a tv show and Paper Boi is saying all kinds of gross shit. But it's like... Donald Glover wrote this show and wtf is he trying to say exactly? I don't understand how more people haven't called out that episode.
Incredible. Dave Chapelle using intersectionalist thought to tear down relations and reinforce the status quo. That takes a really cruel and deft JK Rowling-like hand.
wow these are terrible and out of taste, how were these jokes ever allowed to be aired? How anyone can hear those and not feel disgust is beyond me, belittling a marginalised group like that for an attempted cheap laugh he should be black listed from the entertainment industry.
I've been a long time lurker as an outsider who knows far to little of the world it struggles amidst it I have a lot to learn,if anything I ever says comes of as insensitive or incorrect please let me know.
The only connection I have with the transgender community was when I worked at a call centre a while back, I received a call from a women who was extremely distressed having received a letter with the incorrect pronouns after transitioning and having informed us prior, needless to say I did everything I could to help her rectify it because it's important and the right thing to do,
just know while my voice is a mere one I wish to add ig here in hopes it will somewhat equal out the trolls who infest this website, trans rights are human rights you all deserve to be treated equally and it's clear that's not happening, stay strong I believe in you all and if I can help I will endeavour to do so.
He completely lacks the understanding that despite him not being as privileged as white people in many ways, trans people aren't as privileged as he - as a cis straight man - is in many other different ways. And trans people of color even less so.
What an ignorant fool. Clearly someone who also isn't even slightly interested in learning anything about it.
You made the right decision. Thank you for being responsible.
I just want to throw in my two cents while I'm on this old ass account briefly and thank everyone who shared their views and information here.
The OP in particular is fantastically presented and written and I've shared it around as much as I can.
I already decided not to buy Cyberpunk 2077 after learning its devs had mandatory crunch for most of 2020. This particular disgusting mess from CDPR means I'll likely never play it, and also avoid GOG at all costs. I just can't stomach playing a game with transphobic content like this in it, after all of the rightful criticism and it's still in there, and it's still being used to promote the game outside of the fiction. Like, I couldn't do it, I would feel like shit.
I'm not saying any of this for a pat on the back. I'm saying it for the fellow cis dudes like me. It should make you feel bad. Don't brush it away. This is important.
The OP in particular is fantastically presented and written and I've shared it around as much as I can.
I already decided not to buy Cyberpunk 2077 after learning its devs had mandatory crunch for most of 2020. This particular disgusting mess from CDPR means I'll likely never play it, and also avoid GOG at all costs. I just can't stomach playing a game with transphobic content like this in it, after all of the rightful criticism and it's still in there, and it's still being used to promote the game outside of the fiction. Like, I couldn't do it, I would feel like shit.
I'm not saying any of this for a pat on the back. I'm saying it for the fellow cis dudes like me. It should make you feel bad. Don't brush it away. This is important.
I have no right to chuck my penny's worth in here... but I'm going to break my rule and do it anyway 😄
I recently revisited The Sunken Place (*cough*gaf*cough*) to confirm whether it was the shit-hole everyone has been saying it's become (spoiler: it's far fucking worse).
I know it's very far from perfect here (and, frankly, you shouldn't be in a position to have to settle), but - from an outsider perspective, at least - I reckon it's way better for shitheads to be forced to hide and play their stupid little passive-aggressive games than to be allowed to spout their shite unchallenged; the only context cowards would feel free to express their abhorrent views.
Man, I forget how easy it is for someone like me in my little cis bubble to not see the vile crap you have to deal with.
I'll shut up now.
I still think about character creator.
It would be so easy to just give us the option to choose the pronoun, right? That would be better than determining it by voice. I don't get why the devs pretend not to see the problem. Like, anyone believes the marketing team ISN'T aware of this OT? They surely see it.
It would be so easy to just give us the option to choose the pronoun, right? That would be better than determining it by voice. I don't get why the devs pretend not to see the problem. Like, anyone believes the marketing team ISN'T aware of this OT? They surely see it.
there were articles written about it as soon as it became public, they simply decided that it wasn't a problem worth the cost of fixing.
To be fair, it may not have been an "easy" fix. I'm assuming the reason pronoun is tied to voice is not simply because NPCs will use specific pronouns due to the voice, but that V themselves will refer to themselves using specific pronouns based on their voice. Female voiced V will say things like "I'm just a girl" or "I'm the woman that will..."
As a result, it would require them identify and to throw out all the dialogue recorded for both versions of V and re-record new lines that are either gender neutral or cover both scenarios for each gender. While they became "aware" of the issue when the character creator was partially revealed, you also have to remember that 2077 started development back in 2012. So, they probably were recording dialogue as early as 2013. And, the 48 minute demo that showed off the character creator a bit was revealed in 2018.
So, while they could have certainly thrown out all those lines and re-recorded new dialogue, it would not have been cheap or something as "easy" as a toggle.
That, of course, doesn't excuse their other transphobic behavior.
I thought it was pretty much confirmed that the bulk of the work for this iteration of the game was done from 2018 onwards?
To be actually fair, they could have literally talked to any trans person before they started work on their game.
People say that because they don't understand how game development works. The reality is that all the pieces only ever start to come together in the final two years of development. Writing and voice recording are typically started pretty early, especially since you don't have to wait on other assets to come online to do them.
Yep.
I think this varies. Especially because you don't want to spend thousands or millions recording lines you don't really know will still be in the game. I know CDPR had placeholder recorded lines for Geralt in The Witcher 3 for most of its development. Do you know for sure they started as early as you say?
I think a lot of games don't do all the writing/voice recording early in the process as you'd think as a common complaint of game writers you see on social media is having to somehow fit the writing for what's been made, like we put an underwater level in because we managed to get cool water physics to work and want to show it off so somehow get the story to fit that in for example. plus I think it was said that CDPR was mostly messing about with concepts and prototypes before 2018 (I think this may have been from employee's explaining how long they were crunching? Trying to remember) and I don't know if they would do voice recording for that stuff? Plus, there's no doubt that there's a lot of work that CDPR must have completely scrapped from 2012/13 up to now, a lot of the early stuff wouldn't be in it surely?
Yeah. Lots of engines also have options to auto-generate robotic voices to get an idea of how everything works. VO usually gets done after the content is locked, otherwise it can be very expensive.
I don't think they even needed to do it well. Just saying "there will be some dialog in which the wrong pronouns are used, but we have made the change as a symbolic show of support in response to transgender and enby voices that educated us about this issue. We hope to fix these areas of dialog in the future, but wanted to push through the option for players to select their pronouns independently of voice in time for the game's launch".
It's damn near free PR, especially since they've claimed to be (trying to be) mindful and inclusive of trans players; even if the accusations of transphobia haven't caught fire in the mainstream press.
There are multiple logistical factors that probably made the voice/pronoun issue a longer, more complicated, and time/money intensive process to fix that a AAA game made by several hundred people across multiple departments in the middle of 12+ months of intense crunch would never get around to addressing. As I've said here before, it's disappointing but not surprising that the script and structure is written explicitly around binary genders. What's more disappointing however is the half arsed means at trying to address requests for pronoun options. The solution is horrible.
At this point I'm more interested to see if the assumed logistical factors have merit, though.
At this point I'm more interested to see if the assumed logistical factors have merit, though.
So, uhhh, in case anybody hadn't heard yet, they removed Dave Chappelle's old show from Netflix. Because he complained about not getting paid for the show's use (as per the contract he signed when the show was made). So... I guess the takeaway is that Netflix is open to acting on complaints if you make enough money for them. Sticks and Stones is of course still available, despite numerous complaints
Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-55070232
Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-55070232
I still don't fully understand why the pronoun aspect won't be fixed. Like even if they couldn't gather all the voice actors again to re-record lines or parts of lines, at least having it as an option in subtitles would be an extremely easy fix.
They never ever even commented it being an issue or promised to fix it because they are transphobes who just don't care while they give you customisation on absolutely pointless things like bloody teeth. They've done dubs for the game in 10 languages or more with well known voice actors from each country or region. If they wanted to, they can throw their AAAA budget on it.
You have every right to chuck your 2p in, and you're right of course. :)
Was just a bit depressing first half of the week.
They just don't care, and have never cared. Talk of it being resource expensive to address is fine, but the simple fact is they didn't care to give it a moments thought. Clearly they reacted late to feedback to crowbar something in but then made it almost worse than doing nothing.
The thing that has always been in my head is that it shows such a lack of imagination and understanding of the genre* that such things weren't part of the design from day one, that it makes me think "where else have they been so unimaginative?".
Aside from all that from a pure game making POV they made an RPG in the 21st century with absolutely no foresight when it comes to non-cis characters. Even ignoring their blatant transphobia elsewhere that alone is worthy of extreme criticism. That makes me think the studio has a massive representation issue, a lack of empathy and imagination and furthermore lacks any kind of "adult" theme aside from breasts, peoples heads being blown up, and customisable genitals.
*note: as a fan of Cyberpunk as a genre I know gender/sexuality wasn't really a core tenet of it in the beginning, but as the real world has changed since the late 70's only someone tone deaf to the parallels would have failed to give it a moments thought.
Sorry I went all ranty there, early morning.
Yeah exactly they could have had a zoom meeting with some members of the LGBTQ community understood what the issue was then penned a press release like you say. Thats free PR compared to sending influencers yellow "gaming" chairs.
This was my reaction when the voice/gender deal was revealed. There is absolutely no way that they listened to trans folks - or if they did, that they listened to what they were told - if that was their solution to have non cis characters. There is no way the people who made this decision lived around trans people. And yeah, I am a cis dude.
And it's that thing: they could be honest and said "So, we didn't plan for trans/nb dialogue and it the development process is super complex and we are midway through it. Sorry, the game won't have that option. But, we will have good non cis characters involved in the story and the world. We can still do good on our promise of representation."
But nah. Instead they doubled down on how diverse they are while infusing transphobia and fetishism in the game and refusing to talk about it, or the piss poor character creator decision.
It's maddening. They went for pink money (if the term doesn't apply to trans folks, just LGB, I apologize) with their advertising and all the talk about embracing the futuristic aspects of cyberpunk, body modifications, etc and of course it was all talk. Everything and everybody who is not the """"normal"""" is a product or a fetish. But that's ok because it's just a game! But also it's much more than a game, it's revolutionary and mature and avant agarde! Like, fuck those quotes from Adam Badowski:
Mutual respect and tolerance are the foundation of creativity and innovation - interview with Adam Kiciński and Adam Badowski - CD PROJEKT
Katarzyna Kucharczyk: – The LGBT rights issue has become a hot topic. On top of that, the Company had postponed Night City Wire in light of the social unrest in the USA. Why does CD
www.cdprojekt.com
Lol yup, the defenses being offered up for this trashcan of a company, even in this thread of all places, is pathetic
Eew, just read that Adam Badowski "interview".
Yeah, the great art of saying one thing and doing the complete opposite. Clown-school of philosophy.
When he was referencing Popper he must've been mighty proud.
Yeah, the great art of saying one thing and doing the complete opposite. Clown-school of philosophy.
When he was referencing Popper he must've been mighty proud.