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CDPR is a transphobic company. It's time we stop making excuses for them.
- Thread starter Kyuuji
- Start date
Yes, because after I "came at you" and asked you to read it again, you doubled down and made it very clear you had not read it properly.
You are being incredibly dishonest with your responses here, you are ignoring the entire point of the replies to you to score some petty win.
Please, look past the fact you're being "scloded" and try to see my point.
oh for sure
CDPR's got great writers, that's part of what makes these apparent fuckups so frustrating
I have told you that I was replying to the certain perspective of cis people cosplaying trans people, one that I am particularly interested in as a topic of discussion in general and have talked to people before about it, to which you decided that I was being dishonest, so at that point I either shrug and say okay or agree with you that I am lying.
Also, your original reply did not in any way imply "read it again." The intent was explicit.
That is not the issue here, it is not the topic here. There is no value in saying "I see nothing wrong with cis people cosplaying trans people" because it fully misses the point of the issue of the cosplay and works fo dismiss the concerns with its inherent deflection.
It was a facetious way to point out you had missed the point.
Regardless, you need to read it again anyway.
Whatever, you need to read it again anyway.
[/QUOTE]
If a mod wants to come in and say whether I can talk about that specific facet of cosplay, they can. Your replies aren't interesting to me in that respect.
Since you cannot oblige to quit the discussion after you have said you would, I'll do you a favor.
It seemed from the start you had little interest in actually listening to anyone here. Thank you for making it absolutely clear.
.
Something I don't get is how they don't worry about this affecting their company's profit. I mean the ethics and their shitty transphobic views aside, you would think they would at least not want to stoke these controversies out of fears it might damage their business. Which to me seems like misguided hubris. As if they are knowingly dog whistling not thinking it will affect them.
To add to this, they were recently valued as the second most valuable company in Europe. Link. Just after Ubisoft, which in part seems due to anticipation of Cyberpunk.
Anyway, not really sure what point I'm making, fuck them though. Something I noticed while looking at their wikipedia page though, is that there is no mention of this controversy, or the issue of crunch, so maybe someone can fix that.
To add to this, they were recently valued as the second most valuable company in Europe. Link. Just after Ubisoft, which in part seems due to anticipation of Cyberpunk.
Anyway, not really sure what point I'm making, fuck them though. Something I noticed while looking at their wikipedia page though, is that there is no mention of this controversy, or the issue of crunch, so maybe someone can fix that.
Lose one audience and its profits, and pick up another audience with its profits. Whether the new audience outweighs the former...
I've seen people say they'll purchase games purely because its offensive and harmful to others, and they don't support the backlash against it. I imagine not everyone of these follows through with their social media posturing, but who knows by how much.
The community directly affected and those who care about said community are too small for it to even register on their radar beyond, "sorry if you were offended."
In the world we live in today? Appealing to bigots is very profitable.
Thank you for taking the time to write that, OP. I am aware that this is an important issue for many around here and feel just a little bit better educated as a result of reading your post.
While it's no great sacrifice on my part being that I was only half-heartedly interested in the game, I think I will be avoiding CDPR products moving forward.
While it's no great sacrifice on my part being that I was only half-heartedly interested in the game, I think I will be avoiding CDPR products moving forward.
Sounds about right, disappointing reality.
The tone and writing so far really does seem juvenile and amateurish. I agree, there's no way they'll pull any meaningful social commentary.
oh for sure
CDPR's got great writers, that's part of what makes these apparent fuckups so frustrating
To be clear I think they have good writers, of course they do, but to pull of the specific angle they are going in with this game needs different kind of writers. It just doesn't seem something they would be competent in.
Ain't this the truth. Can't believe I fell for the populism when their pro-consumer talk was coached in such language, no wonder they turned out to be adjacent to gamergate.
Compare the Nightwire thread vs the Harry Potter threads. You can see people only care when it's something they're not interested in.
Cyberpunk 2077 Night City WIRE: Episode 4 |OT| The Street Finds Its Own Uses For Things [UPDATE: Console footage] OT
These vehicles look insane.www.resetera.com
Hogwarts Legacy announced (Avalanche, coming 2021) UP: Coming to PS4, PS5 , PC and Xbox family
Fuck J.K Rowling and fuck TERFS btw :)
To be fair their is a large difference. Rowling is open with her transphobia, there is no disputing it. She admits it. CDPR are more coded right now and none of us have played CP2077. So, you can't expect the same level of reaction when they are operating with an intentional degree of ambiguity.
this point cannot be understated. Like, people need to meditate on that reality.
Your parents? Brothers, sisters? Best friend? You all probably haven't asked them and won't because you're afraid of the answer that reveals them as just as trasnphobic as your average person. To say nothing of the masses in religious communities. Being "-phobic" is easy. Educating oneself is hard. And when there are no consequences for ignorance, people will generally not seek education or the challenging of held assumptions/beliefs. It's why Era banning people in threads like these is a good thing. It forces people who want to comment to educate themselves first. Less they get hit with the hammer. Real consequence for ignorance promotes and faciliates learning for quite a few people.
Very well said.
The first part is a reality people NEED to realize, and we see the last part in every single thread like this.
I don't need to ask my Jamaican parents, I already know. My mum has always been homophobic, so imagine what she thinks of trans rights. But that's backwards ass Jamaican culture for you.
you're absolutely right, I encourage people to read the replies of Ewok on Twitter just to see how unchecked transphobia is.
I just want to say that I appreciate the effort OP put into compiling and explaining these issues to those of us who otherwise might have missed some of the context or nuance, and who haven't been following the development or discussion.
I'm in listening and learning mode.
I'm in listening and learning mode.
My parents just stopped being clearly homophobic last decade. God knows the transphobia may never go. It's dangerously popular in Nigeria, but thankfully people are fighting it.
As for CDPR? I personally think transphobia is just one of the bigotries they have, but I'm not sure gamers are ready for that conversation. I'm definitely not getting this game at launch, that's for sure.
I feel you, fam. And grats on the progress with your fam. I suspect our black communities, along with hispanic and probably Indian communities will the the last to reach a decent level of acceptance. History of toxic masculinity + religion + other issues make me feel like we'll be dragged into the future kicking an screaming on more than a few social issues.
It's been interesting seeing my parents' opinions on LGBT+ issues change over the decade. In South Asian countries, we are familiar with the existence of trans people, we see them on the street. They were the butt of jokes on comedy shows. But there has been progress in the country, slowly. I started showing them documentaries about trans people in Pakistan, Disclosure, talking about JKR being transphobic. I'm grateful for when LGBT+ folks are featured on TV so I can have that talk with them and weed out their blindspots, ignorance, and lack of education. Willing to discuss their biases and bigotry, but it's not been easy and can't imagine how difficult it is for LGBT+ folks themselves with their families.
I think this is also why the media we consume has to be progressive, because it's the thing that reaches the widest number of people. Cyberpunk 2077 will reach millions more people than a book about trans perspectives, and it could do so much good if it actually committed.
Like I'm pretty sure the most high profile trans character most folks are familiar with is either the villain in Ace Ventura or Buffalo Bill. That's an absolute nightmare and something major media producers need to address.
Their "gamer populism" PR was suspect for a while now. They used every opportunity to make themselves look like the good guys compared to other companies. "We leave greed to others" never sat well with me, as if they're somehow the only good guys in gaming. And those "free DLC" are just genius PR. Most other companies just call them patches.
There is sadly a great correlation between "Hardcore RPG fan" and "gamergate".
Honestly I'm not sure we are able to really point at this as them doing something to build up a defense force, at least regarding the Transphobia.
As was pointed out Transphobia isn't just rampant, it's absolutely accepted by the majority of people be they gamers or not.
Maybe if things do come out and we find they are racist, highly homophobic or something like that they may have well played the long game, but the simple fact is when compared to how nasty and predatory EA/ActBlizz/Ubi have been with micro transactions CDPR did the majority of people a solid and continue to the next gen upgrade for Witcher 3.
Unfortunately that stuck with a lot of people and it just became "EA bad guys. CDPR good guys, cut and dry". Now calling out this shit on them gets drowned out just because they didn't do MXT.
Cis people can absolutely cosplay trans people, but in this case it is very specifically a character members of the trans community have noted as being a problem because it plays into harmful ideology. In addition, as I said before the cosplayer decided to lean into that and further draw attention to the glowing blue dick. Not for artistic merit, but because people on her twitter page wanted to see a 'dickgirl'. Even though she already had a version that was much less of a problem without it. That is completely disrespectful and in bad taste
The character cdpr has created is harmful to trans women because it focuses on the very thing we have been trying to get people to look past for decades. You had drawn equivalencies to it being no different to showing off our boobs, but that is false. One can posit and theorycraft all they want about why trans people could lean into this stuff and 'reclaim their sexuality' as some movements have done recently, but nothing is done in a vacuum. Not when we still fighting bathroom bills. Not when we have so little representation already. It isn't the time or place for that, and many marginalized groups don't have the power to do that.
There may come a time where something like this ad isn't as big a deal, because we are much more widely accepted and there is room for artistic messages through stuff like this from companies that, unlike CDPR, know what they are doing. But when we have so little representation already, this is nothing but harmful. And it is important to always keep perspective on the current situation, even in regards to unrealistic settings such as the world of 2077
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Aside from the trash of the company itself, it's baffling to me that a game called Cyberpunk could miss the fact that it's a transgressive genre. Or maybe it's not surprising at all. If people in a company cannot even realize their own transphobic practices, it shouldn't surprise me that their media is equally ignorant. It's like Hashino and Atlus. You can't have a progressive game without progressive people, and so many companies just reflect that reality more and more every day. I'd say 2020 is a cesspool, but really it's more that 2020 has brought to light a cesspool that was always there, yet no one questioned why people were bathing in shit. And if I'm being honest... I think a lot of people are still very much enjoying it. Or worse, simply ignoring it.
What's frightening to me lately is so many people continue to taut a "return to normalcy" as if what was happening before all this shit was somehow "normal". I don't want a return to normalcy. Shit right now is not normal. We need to be as transgressive as the cyberpunk genre itself intends, and start to create real change in our thinking, because the world continues to become more complex, and simple responses are not going to solve the problems communities are now facing. It's easy to do nothing. It's easy to ignore it. But it's not going to remain easy. People are going to act, and attempting to shutter that in the face of "normalcy" is an extremely damning thing to say. People deserve to be recognized for who they are and not who we or someone else wants to imagine them to be. And we need to recognize those who are transphobic, and they need to be shut down, because they dont harm just those communities. Their hatred of others extends outwards, and those in positions of power attempting to give them a podium is horrific. And really, it's hard to understand. Or once again, I should say that - but the power structures we have in place still seem to amplify the worst types of people.
I think Umberto Eco has a lot to say about these tendencies in talking about fascism, and while not directly addressed, I think it's worth pointing out:
What's frightening to me lately is so many people continue to taut a "return to normalcy" as if what was happening before all this shit was somehow "normal". I don't want a return to normalcy. Shit right now is not normal. We need to be as transgressive as the cyberpunk genre itself intends, and start to create real change in our thinking, because the world continues to become more complex, and simple responses are not going to solve the problems communities are now facing. It's easy to do nothing. It's easy to ignore it. But it's not going to remain easy. People are going to act, and attempting to shutter that in the face of "normalcy" is an extremely damning thing to say. People deserve to be recognized for who they are and not who we or someone else wants to imagine them to be. And we need to recognize those who are transphobic, and they need to be shut down, because they dont harm just those communities. Their hatred of others extends outwards, and those in positions of power attempting to give them a podium is horrific. And really, it's hard to understand. Or once again, I should say that - but the power structures we have in place still seem to amplify the worst types of people.
I think Umberto Eco has a lot to say about these tendencies in talking about fascism, and while not directly addressed, I think it's worth pointing out:
Thank you.As I said I paraphrased and the original quote is not quite as fucked up as I remembered it, but still kind of fucked up. The xenophobia part was not so bad but they definitley compare minorities to "non-humans". Besides with the representation issues with Witcher 3 and with all the stuff surrounding CP2077 it's hard not to be less than charitable about it.
CD PROJEKT’s Adam Kiciński and Adam Badowski about mutual respect and tolerance serving as the foundation of creativity and innovation
https://www.cdprojekt.com/en/media/news/mutual-respect-and-tolerance-are-the-foundation-of-creativity-and-innovation-interview-with-adam-kicinski-and-adam-badowski/
Expanding on the issues around the cosplay
OP
OP
Appreciate all the positive responses and support, it's kind of you all. I do want to touch on the cosplay aspect to clarify the issue I have with it and will add to the original post later for future readers to make it more clear.
I believe a cisgender woman can cosplay a trans character, and that there's little issue if it's respectful. I feel there's a significant difference between that and what we're discussing though. This isn't a trans character in the game with any given depth, it's an illustration in an advert whose sole purpose is to fetishize the body of a trans woman, where her transness is reduced in full to her genitals and a comparison is drawn to a beast. The only reason it was of any note was because of the controversy surrounding it, and the issues trans people had with it. So I find it suspect as a choice to begin with, but there's still scope for it to be represented. What solidifies the problem is when the cisgender woman in question is treating that aspect of the trans woman as a joke; as something to laugh at. There's no desire to become any character, but instead become a walking mockery of a trans person that was only ever there to begin with as a fetishization. It's not as though cisgender women are de-facto in support of the rights of trans women, so when someone is treating our bodies as something to be laughed over, and is roleplaying us purely to serve for comedic purposes, I find it poor – to put it mildly. It further reinforces us as a joke, and that in itself is transphobic.
It also loops back to the advert itself. If it's designed to be a terrible and distasteful advert working at the expense of trans women – something CDPR themselves have told us we should be fighting against – then you can't use it frivolously for laughs or promotional material outside of that alleged context. Promoting someone taking that "terrible" imagery and further accenting and highlighting the parts we're supposed to take issue with renders that message meaningless.
If we were discussing a cisgender woman roleplaying a well represented trans character because of their love of them; that's fine. This isn't that though.
Furthermore there's been discussion around men cosplaying/roleplaying as trans women, which is an issue. The short version is that one of the largest battles trans women face in recognition, respect and dignity is in fighting against the perception that we're just men dressing up as and/or pretending to be women. So in as much as in a utopian society it would be nice for everyone to be able to "pretend" to be anyone else, that's not the world we live in. Men dressing up as trans women only serves to further embed in people's minds that trans women are characters being played by men, as opposed to women in our own right. Jen Richards puts it more eloquently and tidily than I could hope to though, using Eddie's Redmayne's performance in The Danish Girl as an example:
You could suggest that people understand the difference between a man pretending to be a trans woman and trans women themselves, but that isn't grounded in the reality in which we live. If you appreciate that this is something trans women have to persistently push back against purely as a means to live as (and therefore be seen and respected as) ourselves, then the concern around men pretending to be trans women should be understandable.
I believe a cisgender woman can cosplay a trans character, and that there's little issue if it's respectful. I feel there's a significant difference between that and what we're discussing though. This isn't a trans character in the game with any given depth, it's an illustration in an advert whose sole purpose is to fetishize the body of a trans woman, where her transness is reduced in full to her genitals and a comparison is drawn to a beast. The only reason it was of any note was because of the controversy surrounding it, and the issues trans people had with it. So I find it suspect as a choice to begin with, but there's still scope for it to be represented. What solidifies the problem is when the cisgender woman in question is treating that aspect of the trans woman as a joke; as something to laugh at. There's no desire to become any character, but instead become a walking mockery of a trans person that was only ever there to begin with as a fetishization. It's not as though cisgender women are de-facto in support of the rights of trans women, so when someone is treating our bodies as something to be laughed over, and is roleplaying us purely to serve for comedic purposes, I find it poor – to put it mildly. It further reinforces us as a joke, and that in itself is transphobic.
It also loops back to the advert itself. If it's designed to be a terrible and distasteful advert working at the expense of trans women – something CDPR themselves have told us we should be fighting against – then you can't use it frivolously for laughs or promotional material outside of that alleged context. Promoting someone taking that "terrible" imagery and further accenting and highlighting the parts we're supposed to take issue with renders that message meaningless.
If we were discussing a cisgender woman roleplaying a well represented trans character because of their love of them; that's fine. This isn't that though.
Furthermore there's been discussion around men cosplaying/roleplaying as trans women, which is an issue. The short version is that one of the largest battles trans women face in recognition, respect and dignity is in fighting against the perception that we're just men dressing up as and/or pretending to be women. So in as much as in a utopian society it would be nice for everyone to be able to "pretend" to be anyone else, that's not the world we live in. Men dressing up as trans women only serves to further embed in people's minds that trans women are characters being played by men, as opposed to women in our own right. Jen Richards puts it more eloquently and tidily than I could hope to though, using Eddie's Redmayne's performance in The Danish Girl as an example:
You could suggest that people understand the difference between a man pretending to be a trans woman and trans women themselves, but that isn't grounded in the reality in which we live. If you appreciate that this is something trans women have to persistently push back against purely as a means to live as (and therefore be seen and respected as) ourselves, then the concern around men pretending to be trans women should be understandable.
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That is wonderfully phrased expansion upon what I was trying to discuss. I am glad you were able to help elaborate in areas where my words may have been failing me. Thank you!
People sometimes make suggestions or exposit on theoretical situations without taking into account the issues that plague our daily lives, and the implications that those suggestions may have in regards to our struggles.
Comment and action around the International Transgender Day of Remembrance and CP77 on the forum.
Hey everyone, I just wanted to let you all know: In order to shine a light on the issues and concerns surrounding Cyberpunk 2077, we are going to be locking its OT on November 20 which is the International Transgender Day of Remembrance. This will make the issue impossible to miss, especially for anyone using that thread the day after the game launches.
Black Chamber and vestan , who have signed up to create the OT, are 100% on board with this and both were fully supportive when we contacted them about it.
The OT will be reopened on the 21st because we feel it's important to have a space where people can discuss and criticize the game without bigots and trolls dominating or shutting down the discussion. We'll be moderating as strictly as necessary to provide that space. There will be a staff post and guidelines in place to ensure this.
Additionally, in honor of Transgender Awareness Week as well as the Day of Remembrance, there will be a site logo change for the duration.
Black Chamber and vestan , who have signed up to create the OT, are 100% on board with this and both were fully supportive when we contacted them about it.
The OT will be reopened on the 21st because we feel it's important to have a space where people can discuss and criticize the game without bigots and trolls dominating or shutting down the discussion. We'll be moderating as strictly as necessary to provide that space. There will be a staff post and guidelines in place to ensure this.
Additionally, in honor of Transgender Awareness Week as well as the Day of Remembrance, there will be a site logo change for the duration.
That sounds acceptable to me as a starting point.
I do have a question though, are we locking all threads on Cyberpunk unrelated to the very specific question of why we are locking the OT on that day? If not, locking the OT will do very little as they will just post in a separate thread.
I appreciate Black Chamber and vestan's support on this, I just want to make sure their efforts in accommodating this don't go to waste.
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OP
OP
Going to add my personal support to the notion mentioned by Sophia and thank both Black Chamber and vestan for their support in giving the day space for recognition and reflection. I know your passion for the game is immense and there has been tension around all of this, so it's kind of you to work to support the day of remembrance in light of the issues surrounding the game and CDPR.
That seems like a good compromise of something to help general trans rights awareness and with this situation.
I assume it will be sticked in addition to being locked, yes? Otherwise, it will literally be missed. lol
(that is to say, people not looking for the thread won't know it's missing because of this effort)
Thanks for this to the staff as well as the ones creating the OT for agreeing to it.
We'll lock all the dedicated threads for the game on that day with a temporary staff post to explain what's going on. There may be some discussion about it in other threads, and there will probably be limits to what we can realistically enforce, but as long as we can get people to observe the spirit of the rule (no focused hype threads) we think the point will get across.
Fantastic OP.
A year ago, heck, earlier in 2020, Cyberpunk 2077 was my MOST anticipated game of 2020. Then I become more aware of the transphobic crap they've been showing and brushing off and.... well, I can securely say fuck that game and fuck that company.
I would have liked to play a grand AAA game set in a cool Cyberpunk world with some great writers, like I always heard about CDPR and the Witcher games, but... nope. Not this one.
I'm also very glad to see what Sophia and the OT authors mentioned earlier about locking the OT on November 20. The more visibility that can be made of this, the better.
A year ago, heck, earlier in 2020, Cyberpunk 2077 was my MOST anticipated game of 2020. Then I become more aware of the transphobic crap they've been showing and brushing off and.... well, I can securely say fuck that game and fuck that company.
I would have liked to play a grand AAA game set in a cool Cyberpunk world with some great writers, like I always heard about CDPR and the Witcher games, but... nope. Not this one.
I'm also very glad to see what Sophia and the OT authors mentioned earlier about locking the OT on November 20. The more visibility that can be made of this, the better.
This is a great idea and I fully support it. If the average user refuses to engage with this important discussion, this is a fantastic way to make sure they know about it.
I don't even anymore. Did this already come up?
I might be mistaken but I only know the show from being intrinsically connected to racism issues, not a US citizen. Someone tell me I'm imagining things please.