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Deleted member 17184

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,240
Mods and admins, if you are reading this, would it be possible to chime in on the discussion about having an OT for this game? Are you discussing the possibility of not having it, or having it with all the necessary info about transphobia in the OP? If this isn't in active discussion, are you open to have that? If so, is this thread the best channel for that or private messages?
 

Razmos

Unshakeable One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,890
About their political views - they've recently made some kind of sale with profits going straight to some LGBTQ rights charity and they did change their logo to Pride colors. It's just a PR but in Poland it definitely means the homophobic government won't be your ally.

That is not, of course, in any way an excuse for their absurd and stubborn way of ignoring trans community voices and fucking up so often by being transphobic.

Like, how can you be so stupid? I don't believe EVERYONE in the studio is transphobic. Why the hell no one will just talk to the management and PR team. It's mind blowing.
Keep in mind that the sales of that t-shirt was shared from one individual employee's personal twitter account and was never shared or advertised by any of the companies social media accounts. The amount of money they would have made for charity would have been an absolute pittance since they didn't care enough to risk angering their alt-right fans
 

labx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,326
Medellín, Colombia
The response of "it's a dystopia it's meant to be bad" holds little weight as well when these things are constantly decoupled from any actual criticism. This is moving past the fact that just because a setting is supposed to be bad doesn't mean we need to lean on transphobia as a means to depict it. There's plenty of other awful things that the game will not invoke or use to facilitate this, and fetishizing and mocking us as the backdrop to it is an easy target. Especially in the knowledge that many fans see zero issue with these things, including Mike Pondsmith himself, so the extent to which that "terrible" message is landing is already minor.

OP, you are great. Excellent thread that left ZERO DOUBT about the way that CDPR see the world. It's good that you can create some cognitive dissonance so the people can think more critically about the products they want to buy and support.
 

dreamobserver

Member
Oct 27, 2017
478
wouldn't be surprised if they're racist as well, it always seems like a venn diagram tbh with people who are transphobic
 

Chrome Hyena

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,769
True, that's why I didn't directly name him but surely mods would agree this is actively silencing trans people's concerns and voices?
What exactly do you want the mods to do? You can't make people engage others, or post in threads they don't want to post in. The mods are doing the right thing, they are ensuring that people aren't actively trying to insult or belittle anyone, and allowing threads like this one to exist and also not sanitizing the OT of these controversial games from rightful criticism. but if you're saying people ignoring this thread while posting in other thread is silencing people? That... no. Me not replying to your post in an OT about a game is not me silencing you, its me being respectful of your viewpoint and what you're saying. Now if I came into this thread and posted some shit about how awesome the game is or something, that's 100% different. But you can't force people to engage with people if they don't want to.
 

Deleted member 21709

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
23,310
About their political views - they've recently made some kind of sale with profits going straight to some LGBTQ rights charity and they did change their logo to Pride colors. It's just a PR but in Poland it definitely means the homophobic government won't be your ally.

GettyImages-619309866.jpg
 

Deleted member 18944

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,944
Mike Pondsmith is a transphobe. He "doesn't see transphobia" and "has trans friends" and "lots of LGBT people worked on the game" to paraphrase.

I realize my original post could come off as hostile, and I'm sorry about that. I know you're not the type to argue in bad faith, so I wanted to explain my POV, my rationale for why I don't think Cyberpunk should see any more discussion on Era not related to the open transphobia of its marketing and development.

Oh no worries! I was not implying you were hostile, and you have every right to be angry about how this entire situation, and I value your thoughts on it. Trans rights are human rights and I will forever accept and advocate the needs of the transEra community here, and that's why I wanted to know!

Razmos line about focusing the effort towards the transEra community was just brilliant, and I think shifting the frame like that made me realize why my original question seems off.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,703
Brazil
Trolls and alt-accounts have been weeded out enough over the years and all the threads we have had on this issue.
Focusing on caring for our trans community is more important than catching trolls.

Trans person here

We already know which threads might have transphobic shit because we see the signs before anyone else. We had threads where trans people warned about jk rowling 2 years before she went full berserk. So any trans person that enters a Hogwarts rpg thing or the Cyberpunk thread know what they are into. "i told you so" is a minority superpower =P
You don't enter a "jk rowling posted transphobic stuff OT" and becomes depressed because you saw transphobic stuff that you didn't expected to see =P

But cis people can be oblivious to stuff not related to them, so it is good to have SOMEWHERE that will warn then that it is kinda shitty when everywhere else in youtube, twitch and most gaming sites ignore it.

I agree with discoraging making lots of threads about the game, but banning discussion will only mean more cis heterosexual people will be oblivious to the problem of the games
 

Moff

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,786
saying I was disappointed in CDPR would be a massive understatement. they used to be cool underdogs who made incredible RPGs and Geralt was kind of their mascot, who I consider a very progressive character. The way they dealt with trans issues is inexcusable, Cyberpunk 2077 is not only made by proud transphobes, it pushes transphobic messages. I don't see how an OT can happen here.
 

Potterson

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,416

Sure, I get the point - but I'm talking about Poland and how people view such actions. In comparison to Poland the USA is HYPER tolerant and amazing for LGBTQ community. If our president would show up with Pride flag, support for him would drop by 20-30 percent, that's how fun my country is currently.

I feel like people are just now slowly learning about gay people and lesbian people, but trans people? Fuck, our society is not educated when it comes to trans community, like, at all. It's still a joking matter for many people, even those who consider themselves "allies". We're under-developed hard in these matters.

There was this case of non-binary person being arrested for putting a Pride flag on statues of Jesus (lmao) and even "serious" journalists were misgendering them on purpose. We're like fucking medieval times here.

That's just for some context. But on the other hand, CDPR has a tons of foreign employees, it's not like they are the representation of Polish society... But they keep fucking up.
 

Stooge

Member
Oct 29, 2017
11,238
This game isn't getting a cent from me and neither will anything else they publish until they course correct.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
I'm surprised at the surprise in some people about this coming from "the Witcher" devs, games where there's a shitload of sexism even in part 3 (not even going to enter into part 1 sex card minigame), let alone subpar racial representation (bunch of made up races like elves and dwarves but adding black people somehow doesn't make sense for polish devs).

There was never any progresiveness in CDPR output IMO. The writting was on the wall IMO.
 

Razmos

Unshakeable One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,890
Trans person here

We already know which threads might have transphobic shit because we see the signs before anyone else. We had threads where trans people warned about jk rowling 2 years before she went full berserk. So any trans person that enters a Hogwarts rpg thing or the Cyberpunk thread know what they are into. "i told you so" is a minority superpower =P
You don't enter a "jk rowling posted transphobic stuff OT" and becomes depressed because you saw transphobic stuff that you didn't expected to see =P

But cis people can be oblivious to stuff not related to them, so it is good to have SOMEWHERE that will warn then that it is kinda shitty when everywhere else in youtube, twitch and most gaming sites ignore it.

I agree with discoraging making lots of threads about the game, but banning discussion will only mean more cis heterosexual people will be oblivious to the problem of the games
True, but its also not the communities duty to keep informing people and keep educating all the time.
What did you think of my earlier suggestion of a thread that summarises and explains why discussion is banned and provides links to information that the mods could link to every time a banned cyberpunk thread is made?
The people who would be drawn to an OT for the game would not realistically learn much by skimming past info about the transphobia in the OP and then continuing to fawn over the games graphics etc.
 

Kyrona

Member
Jul 9, 2020
509
Trans person here

We already know which threads might have transphobic shit because we see the signs before anyone else. We had threads where trans people warned about jk rowling 2 years before she went full berserk. So any trans person that enters a Hogwarts rpg thing or the Cyberpunk thread know what they are into. "i told you so" is a minority superpower =P
You don't enter a "jk rowling posted transphobic stuff OT" and becomes depressed because you saw transphobic stuff that you didn't expected to see =P

But cis people can be oblivious to stuff not related to them, so it is good to have SOMEWHERE that will warn then that it is kinda shitty when everywhere else in youtube, twitch and most gaming sites ignore it.

I agree with discoraging making lots of threads about the game, but banning discussion will only mean more cis heterosexual people will be oblivious to the problem of the games

You don't become depressed by going in and seeing whatever news is in the OT, you get it by seeing the dismissal of a great many people within that thread.

And I disagree. We can raise awareness without supporting the ability to post how great CDPR and their works are while very clearly ignoring the protestations of other groups. People say if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.


And their silence is deafening.
 

Deleted member 30544

User Requested Account Closure
Banned
Nov 3, 2017
5,215
User banned (1 week): Ignoring staff post and antagonizing another member.
You tried, RockmanBN lol

(I also wanted to post it in there, but yeah, probably not worth it.)

Just as FYI , the dude who immediately posted after Rockman's post completely ignoring it doing stupid questions is a right wing crazy ass who has previous bans for sexism.

I said this because....well it fits a profile.
 

Deleted member 21709

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
23,310
Sure, I get the point - but I'm talking about Poland and how people view such actions. In comparison to Poland the USA is HYPER tolerant and amazing for LGBTQ community. If our president would show up with Pride flag, support for him would drop by 20-30 percent, that's how fun my country is currently.

I feel like people are just now slowly learning about gay people and lesbian people, but trans people? Fuck, our society is not educated when it comes to trans community, like, at all. It's still a joking matter for many people, even those who consider themselves "allies". We're under-developed hard in these matters.

There was this case of non-binary person being arrested for putting a Pride flag on statues of Jesus (lmao) and even "serious" journalists were misgendering them on purpose. We're like fucking medieval times here.

That's just for some context. But on the other hand, CDPR has a tons of foreign employees, it's not like they are the representation of Polish society... But they keep fucking up.

I'm aware of the recent election results in Poland, breaks my heart. So in that sense, ballsy move by CD-PR. But it still rings hollow when Poland is NOT their biggest market.
 

Android Sophia

The Absolute Sword
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,110
Mods and admins, if you are reading this, would it be possible to chime in on the discussion about having an OT for this game? Are you discussing the possibility of not having it, or having it with all the necessary info about transphobia in the OP? If this isn't in active discussion, are you open to have that? If so, is this thread the best channel for that or private messages?
We're reading. Bear with us; it's still currently in the workday in the US, and not everyone we want to discuss things with is available. We can't do a full blanket ban on the game or OT, but we can look into ways to curb the number of Cyberpunk threads that will exist before and after launch.

if they can't ban an OT, at least don't promote the game with a custom ERA logo on launch day. make it a pro-trans logo instead.
There won't be a custom logo for this game, that I can promise.

Maybe add a big old banner about trans rights at the beginning of the OT, with charities to donate to, etc.
We are planning a staff post for the start of the OT, and a reply banner as needed. As for charities, this is something we'll look into. We can't force people to engage, unfortunately, but we can make the topic impossible to miss.

I would be nice if the admins finally break their silence about this issue but its been only a couple of years now I'm sure they'll get around to it.
I can't remember off the top of my head every post we've ever put out, but I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time we've fielded questions on or spoken about the game. We encouraged the creation of this thread and were considering making one like it ourselves before Kyuuji stepped up. We believe there's going to be another one taking a critical look at the contents of the game after its released, and that's also a good thing.
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,687
What exactly do you want the mods to do? You can't make people engage others, or post in threads they don't want to post in. The mods are doing the right thing, they are ensuring that people aren't actively trying to insult or belittle anyone, and allowing threads like this one to exist and also not sanitizing the OT of these controversial games from rightful criticism. but if you're saying people ignoring this thread while posting in other thread is silencing people? That... no. Me not replying to your post in an OT about a game is not me silencing you, its me being respectful of your viewpoint and what you're saying. Now if I came into this thread and posted some shit about how awesome the game is or something, that's 100% different. But you can't force people to engage with people if they don't want to.
I mean tbh, posting this doesn't help at all. If you are lurking the thread, but don't agree or don't want to actually discuss the main issue of the thread, it's not going to help move the discussion.
 

Sunfyre

Member
Jan 15, 2020
585
Tricky situation, I was really interested in this game. But the OP clearly laid out that CDPR is flippant about Transgender issues at best and maybe even something worse, but even if you ignore their intentions their actions are harmful and I don't see any true remorse or desire to change for the better.

I guess I will maybe buy the game used someday and donate to a charity that fights for transgender issues, that way CDPR will at least not get a single penny from me.
 
Last edited:

Faith

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,882
UK
one can deplatform a small indie game that nobody will see

one cannot deplatform one of the biggest franchises in the world
That will just take out space for people to understand why it is shit because other places will not mention this

Yes you can, nobody is too big to deplatform. Don't be so utterly ridiculous.
 

MondoMega

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jan 10, 2018
47,475
Thank you OP; the compilation of all of this is absolutely appreciated. I had forgotten about those 2018 tweets, and to me they make it clear that CDPR have no interest in improving themselves or the representation of trans people in their products. They've continued to publish harmful content for years now, and that lack of change speaks volumes about the company's values. Considering that it bleeds in from the marketing to the game itself, the issues clearly don't solely lie in the PR department or upper-management.

It's disgusting; obviously goes without saying that i'm not giving a cent to any of CDPR's products (or services in GOG), and in regards to the current discussion point of the thread, I hope the mods discourage the creation of multiple threads about the game (if not banning discussion about it entirely; but it doesn't seem like that will happen).
 
Oct 30, 2017
15,278
We're reading. Bear with us; it's still currently in the workday in the US, and not everyone we want to discuss things with is available. We can't do a full blanket ban on the game or OT, but we can look into ways to curb the number of Cyberpunk threads that will exist before and after launch.


There won't be a custom logo for this game, that I can promise.


We are planning a staff post for the start of the OT, and a reply banner as needed. As for charities, this is something we'll look into. We can't force people to engage, unfortunately, but we can make the topic impossible to miss.


I can't remember off the top of my head every post we've ever put out, but I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time we've fielded questions on or spoken about the game. We encouraged the creation of this thread and were considering making one like it ourselves before Kyuuji stepped up. We believe there's going to be another one taking a critical look at the contents of the game after its released, and that's also a good thing.

tumblr_otsjjcONeA1s86mfwo1_1280.gif
 

RockmanBN

Visited by Knack - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,985
Cornfields
We're reading. Bear with us; it's still currently in the workday in the US, and not everyone we want to discuss things with is available. We can't do a full blanket ban on the game or OT, but we can look into ways to curb the number of Cyberpunk threads that will exist before and after launch.
Why not?
 

Bufbaf

Don't F5!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,664
Hamburg, Germany
I have a genuine question and it's not supposed to be some gotcha trap thing. I'm legitimately curious.

We can't do a full blanket ban on the game or OT
Why not?

I want to add so much to this question in terms of what's more important, and who to support, but I recognize that the more I put on top of this, the more it DOES look like a gotcha. So, why is a blanket ban no real option here?

edit goddamnit rockman
 

Watershed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,820
100%. Their behavior as a studio is undeniable. What people choose to do with their money is their choice, but there is no denying the info and commentary in the OP. This is a game development studio that goes out of their way to mock trans folx.
 

Deleted member 17184

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,240
We're reading. Bear with us; it's still currently in the workday in the US, and not everyone we want to discuss things with is available. We can't do a full blanket ban on the game or OT, but we can look into ways to curb the number of Cyberpunk threads that will exist before and after launch.


There won't be a custom logo for this game, that I can promise.


We are planning a staff post for the start of the OT, and a reply banner as needed. As for charities, this is something we'll look into. We can't force people to engage, unfortunately, but we can make the topic impossible to miss.


I can't remember off the top of my head every post we've ever put out, but I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time we've fielded questions on or spoken about the game. We encouraged the creation of this thread and were considering making one like it ourselves before Kyuuji stepped up. We believe there's going to be another one taking a critical look at the contents of the game after its released, and that's also a good thing.
Thank you!
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,703
Brazil
True, but its also not the communities duty to keep informing people and keep educating all the time.
What did you think of my earlier suggestion of a thread that summarises and explains why discussion is banned and provides links to information that the mods could link to every time a banned cyberpunk thread is made?
The people who would be drawn to an OT for the game would not realistically learn by much by skimming past info about the transphobia in the OP and then continuing to fawn over the games graphics etc.

I think that locking every thread will mean people who see the game on youtube and news sites but don't want to make a thread will remain oblivious to the problem.

The problem of saying "it is not ERA's duty to keep informing people" is that ... everything else in the web will inform of how awesome the game is.

And it is LITERALLY the duty of the moderation team to deal with this stuff.

You don't become depressed by going in and seeing whatever news is in the OT, you get it by seeing the dismissal of a great many people within that thread.

And I disagree. We can raise awareness without supporting the ability to post how great CDPR and their works are while very clearly ignoring the protestations of other groups. People say if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.


And their silence is deafening.

You only see the dismissal entering the thread.
Banning discussion on the game will only make the problem invisible to the eyes, not fixed.

How the hell do you raise awareness banning discussion ?

We are literally only discussing it because someone created a thread to raise awareness of it.

Yes you can, nobody is too big to deplatform. Don't be so utterly ridiculous.

[citation needed]

Also, deplatform only works if it is everywhere. And we KNOW that youtube, twitch, gamefaqs and even so called "SWJ" sites like kotaku and eurogamer will not deplatform those stuff.
 

Iztok

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,138
I'm not really surprised by this, having observed this part of the world (and of Europe) for all of my life.
I'm very embarassed by how backwards people are in my country, and Poland is even worse than us. It's no coincidence these like minded countries form central/eastern Europe are now forming a political alliance in opposition to mainstream EU values, based on these exact issues - LGBT and immigration.

I used to think we were the rising stars of Europe, but these days I'm just ashamed.

Would like to say one thing, though, for most people I know personally, who are like this, it's mostly because they were never really forced to think about these issues critically and learn about them. Rather it all remained in limbo between taboo and mockery, until recently, when right-wing politicians decided to harness this and turn it into a hateful platform.
 

Razmos

Unshakeable One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,890
We're reading. Bear with us; it's still currently in the workday in the US, and not everyone we want to discuss things with is available. We can't do a full blanket ban on the game or OT, but we can look into ways to curb the number of Cyberpunk threads that will exist before and after launch.


There won't be a custom logo for this game, that I can promise.


We are planning a staff post for the start of the OT, and a reply banner as needed. As for charities, this is something we'll look into. We can't force people to engage, unfortunately, but we can make the topic impossible to miss.


I can't remember off the top of my head every post we've ever put out, but I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time we've fielded questions on or spoken about the game. We encouraged the creation of this thread and were considering making one like it ourselves before Kyuuji stepped up. We believe there's going to be another one taking a critical look at the contents of the game after its released, and that's also a good thing.
Thank you for replying Sophia, I do appreciate that you will actively try and reduce the amount of threads though I am disappointed that they will continue to be given a platform here.

I also cannot remember all of the admin posts made regarding these issues but I feel like they were probably unsatisfactory considering how this is an issue that keeps coming up. I do remember that nothing ever came of asking for discussion of the game to be banned last time in the thread that Banshee McSpook made and that was pinned to the front page.

I'm glad Kyuuji created this thread and the admins supported it but I feel like it should not be down to the community to do this.

I feel like having a thread looking critically at the game after release would be great but it seems like a moot point when the game is going to continue to be allowed free advertisement and attention here.
 

Iztok

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,138
Sure, I get the point - but I'm talking about Poland and how people view such actions. In comparison to Poland the USA is HYPER tolerant and amazing for LGBTQ community. If our president would show up with Pride flag, support for him would drop by 20-30 percent, that's how fun my country is currently.

I feel like people are just now slowly learning about gay people and lesbian people, but trans people? Fuck, our society is not educated when it comes to trans community, like, at all. It's still a joking matter for many people, even those who consider themselves "allies". We're under-developed hard in these matters.

There was this case of non-binary person being arrested for putting a Pride flag on statues of Jesus (lmao) and even "serious" journalists were misgendering them on purpose. We're like fucking medieval times here.

That's just for some context. But on the other hand, CDPR has a tons of foreign employees, it's not like they are the representation of Polish society... But they keep fucking up.

Exactly this is what I wanted to get across in my post, as well.
I don't think people from more progressive countries (yes, even the US in comparison to our part of the world) realize how backwards some (most) people in this part of Europe are when it comes to these matters.
 

Deleted member 30544

User Requested Account Closure
Banned
Nov 3, 2017
5,215
We're reading. Bear with us; it's still currently in the workday in the US, and not everyone we want to discuss things with is available. We can't do a full blanket ban on the game or OT, but we can look into ways to curb the number of Cyberpunk threads that will exist before and after launch.

May I suggest maybe stopping or closing the game's OT during launch day for one day or two? Then reopen. That will show protest and solidarity. Will be more symbolic than a sticky thread and such.
 

-Le Monde-

Avenger
Dec 8, 2017
12,613
As I imagined. Completely toothless. Reminder that this game is coming out on November 19th, a day before Transgender Remembrance Day.

Just horrible. Way to make the community feel unwelcomed.

This is getting beyond exhausting.
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,973
Thanks Kyuuji, Banshee, and others for the threads the past few days.

At the start of the last decade Poland was a burgeoning darling of video game development. It closed out the decade with "lgbt-free zones". That so many people have forgotten or never learned what happened there over 80 years ago is infuriating. I'm even seeing it now in my home state of new york - even public health concerns are a nuisance worthy of burning protective equipment in the street the way books were once burned. And my current state of residence is fighting Trump's admin over denying funding for transgender athletes in schools. I hate these situations and wish they weren't the case, but not to the point where I want to stop talking about them here or elsewhere.

You know I've said before that personal boycotts aside, general boycotts of a thing don't work. Boycotts of things that sustain and support the thing you want to be boycotted, do work however. Which sites will end up having cp2077 advertising or extended hyping or developer coverage? Will Era have cp2077 advertising even?

So this is my suggestion (fake edit: what Fercho said, basically): leave up the OT until a few hours after it has released in all territories. Then, from that point until the transgender day of remembrance is over in most timezones, close all the cyberpunk threads to new posts and make this an awareness protest/event. The how and why should be very clear. If anyone tries to circumvent with new threads, they're gone until after the game awards, at least. Then open the threads with a threadmark linking to this or another resource thread. A 24-36 hour "inconvenience" won't harm anyone.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,061
From what I can tell, this could be part of a more general concerning trend running through the fanbases of some "Eurojank" games, or some games from Central and Eastern European countries that also appeal particularly to the old school PC gaming audience. That audience is probably very white and middle/upper class compared to gaming as a whole, and at the same time can be very defensive about the platform.

There's a sense among them that PC game design "the way it used to be" was lost. Maybe some of them incorporate modern culture and social issues into who they blame for it. These are the people Yahtzee on Zero Punctuation was trying to poke fun at when he coined the term "PC Gaming Master Race." I wouldn't be surprised if some of that tied into the political climates in these countries too. There's a feeling that certain companies from these countries are "making PC gaming great again" so to speak. I think you could see this among the most defensive fans of games like Kingdom Come Deliverance and Star Citizen.

That CDProjekt would attract and at the very least feel the need to avoid repelling that audience is not surprising given GOG's reputation as the preserver of old school PC gaming.
 

Razmos

Unshakeable One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,890
Lol nothing that has been suggested in this thread is "not feasible" and its nonsense to suggest so.

I'm gonna take a break from this thread for my own wellbeing because I've been posting here all damn day and I'm too worked up.

But ill just say that ERA not making a statement here is a statement.