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Minthara

Freelance Market Director
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
7,903
Montreal
Could you clear me up as I am not familiar with the creative business what crunch means there and why everybody is so against it. In my field crunsh means working from 6am 6pm for 6days a week.

We switched in my company from an older warehouse software to SAP and I was working from 6 am to 11pm 6 Days a week for 12 weeks in a row and slept in a hotel closer to the company so that i could still get my 6 hours mandatory rest :)
Sure it was hard but I earned over 600 percent more these 3 months so that was nice and when the company has lots of work we regularly work 6 day weeks with overpay.
So I have every year a 4-8 weeks period with longer hours and one more day at the company and it is not that big a deal because you know it is coming and we earn 50 percent more per hour than. So Cyperpunk comes out in 2 months so basicly they are working 8 saturdays and some overtime.
As long as the overtime gets paid and with extra benefits I see no problem in a short overtime period. Sorry for my English.

So there's a couple of things that make it different: Crunch in the video game industry (also happens in other similar industries like animation) occurs when a project is near completion and there are still a whole host of things left to do. Pay has very little to do with it, since a lot of the people crunching are not just crunching due to pay reasons - often their job stability and company growth can be tied to it. Hell, even what their co-workers think of them can be tied to it.

I've seen people passed over for raises and new positions because they did not "take one for the team" and crunch. Hell, at one of my old companies there was a matrix for above and beyond where people were awarded extra "points" that would go towards their performance scores based on how much of a "team player" they were, i.e. how much they crunched.

Crunch also trickles downwards and gets worse as it goes down. While CD PR may "only" be crunching for a month, there's a good chance that their external partners (which could be handling things like QA) have likely been crunching for longer, harder with even less job stability.

So if you take those two things into account and think about the people at the very bottom of the giant crunch mountain - outsourced people who are shamed and peer pressured into doing crunch all the time, so much so that any form of crunch becomes mandatory since your job and upwards mobility at a company are both tied to it. This creates stressful emotional, mental, and physical situations, so much as that "attrition" becomes a term brought up daily during conversations - which is really a light coded conversation about how badly employees are burning out.

People sacrifice their marriages, friendships, relationships with kids, and other family members just to get your favorite game out the door - that all generally means much more to people than getting a temporary salary increase. The human cost is very real, especially over prolonged periods of time.

Some crunch can even last 6+ months. As I said earlier, any kind of crunch, "mandatory" or not, is actually mandatory due to the vast amount of other things tied in with expectations of you doing crunch. Not to mention the vast amount of pressure some people feel to crunch because their boss is crunching.

TLDR: Tons of bullshit at play here rather than just an extra temporary salary increase.


One thing omitted in the article is the information that Polish labor laws are very strict concerning overtime. And overtime hourly pay rate is 150% of base, and 200 % if overtime extends to night

That's great! As I mentioned earlier, pay isn't generally the problem with crunch - but I'm glad the devs are getting paid!
 
Nov 11, 2017
2,249
It's crazy the amount of free passes CDPR gets when even half of the stuff they've been pulling would cause a mob with any other company.
6 day weeks for the last month, and paid overtime by the hour, is better than... most other developers?

It can be a lot worse for the team to delay the project rather than complete it. Delays are demoralizing, depressing for people and can be worse than 6 day weeks to complete a project.

But I work in vfx and am used to this.
 

Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
Delay the game. It'll sell no matter what anyway. It doesn't matter when it comes out.
 

BrickArts295

GOTY Tracking Thread Master
Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,746
People defending CDProject crunch culture and attacking Jason for reporting on Twitter.
Some CDProject fans are a fucking cult.
If we thought TLOU2's review thread could not be topped, we were very wrong. If it ends up with a score lower then TLOU2, Shit's gonna get nuclear on Twitter XD
4wz9.gif
 

bruhaha

Banned
Jun 13, 2018
4,122
6 day weeks for the last month, and paid overtime by the hour, is better than... most other developers?

It can be a lot worse for the team to delay the project rather than complete it. Delays are demoralizing, depressing for people and can be worse than 6 day weeks to complete a project.

But I work in vfx and am used to this.

They've been working extra hours for months (since the last delay) unpaid. The article says the game has already been submitted for cert and they are working on bugfixes. That implies they know exactly how much work is remaining and how long they'd need to delay if they worked normally. The fact that a whistleblower sent the email to Schreier indicates people are unhappy about the mandate.
 

Flik

Member
Feb 12, 2020
39
They've been working extra hours for months (since the last delay) unpaid. The article says the game has already been submitted for cert and they are working on bugfixes. That implies they know exactly how much work is remaining and how long they'd need to delay if they worked normally. The fact that a whistleblower sent the email to Schreier indicates people are unhappy about the mandate.
Developers were paid. It says so in the article
 

ToddBonzalez

The Pyramids? That's nothing compared to RDR2
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,530
My feeling is, they want the pushback from gamers, so they can say; "We've heard you gamers. We're doing the right thing and pushing the release back to March 2021 to allow our developers to have a happy work life balance". It's better than just saying "We're delaying the game until March" and then getting a bunch of negative pushback from gamers. It makes them look like the good guys for not forcing their developers to work 6 day weeks, and gives them the time they actually need to make CP ready for next gen consoles.
Honestly I doubt there's that sort of 4D chess going on. They're probably just seeing the release coming like an oncoming freight train, and with a ton of open bugs and issues the producers are pulling their hair out trying to figure out how it'll get done in time. But yes, they should have delayed again rather than forcing crunch.
 

PapaDev

Member
Oct 26, 2017
574
This shit happens in every company. To make matters worst, OT is not paid 1-1. It's a random multiplier between 0 and 1.0 times the OT you did. At every AAA company out there. I've regularly done 60+ hours weeks months before ship.

it will only get worst with next gen and games getting bigger.

Why is this not talked about more often ? Because of the dedication of those in this industry willing to tolerate unhealthy work conditions for a carrot on a stick in the form of a bonus once the project ends.
 

TheKeipatzy

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,716
California for now
Not surprised. This scummy company had led about MTX by willingly neglecting to mention multiplayer... Even when they said a they are not about it.

Thought long and hard. I won't be touching this
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
FFS, this shouldn't be going on. This is not how to treat your workers. There's some serious issues in gaming industry. These big games are getting way too big, when it leads to shit like this. And we as consumers should demand better, not for us but for the developers. I feel really sorry for the people burning themselves out.
My feeling is, they want the pushback from gamers, so they can say; "We've heard you gamers. We're doing the right thing and pushing the release back to March 2021 to allow our developers to have a happy work life balance". It's better than just saying "We're delaying the game until March" and then getting a bunch of negative pushback from gamers. It makes them look like the good guys for not forcing their developers to work 6 day weeks, and gives them the time they actually need to make CP ready for next gen consoles.
This would be even more fucked up. Hope that's not the case. People shouldn't be losing their minds over delays, shit don't matter. More humane working conditions do.
 

SlickShoes

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,770
People on salaries generally won't get overtime pay, it's usually just the hourly employees that get it. Maybe that's changed now.

when I worked in QA crunch was usually 6 months and you lose touch with everything in the outside world for that time. No mandatory crunch doesn't mean they haven't already been doing it too.
 

bruhaha

Banned
Jun 13, 2018
4,122
As I said before, Poland has very strict labor laws. And overtime pay is mandated

How do you know they've followed the law for the previous time when now there needs to be an email about the next 6 weeks?

So CDPR's managers say they want to avoid overtime, but they are so bad at it that for a year choose to pay people 150-200% instead of hiring adequate staff to pay them at 100% to work normal hours? 6 weeks paying for overtime makes sense because hiring takes time. A year does not.
 

Zeal543

Next Level Seer
Member
May 15, 2020
5,780
6 day weeks for the last month, and paid overtime by the hour, is better than... most other developers?

It can be a lot worse for the team to delay the project rather than complete it. Delays are demoralizing, depressing for people and can be worse than 6 day weeks to complete a project.

But I work in vfx and am used to this.
You forgot the part with lying about no microtransactions (inb4 apologists claim that was only said for single player, not true) or the various features they said would be in game only for them to be cut. And yes the crunch is also a big factor.
 
Feb 23, 2019
1,426
The solution to hire more staff is almost never the solution for crunch time. Work like this isn't easily divisible, and requires fairly expert knowledge of the complex systems that are created for video games.

I don't think people truly appreciate just how difficult it is to create games and how scarce some of the most coveted talent is.
 

Flik

Member
Feb 12, 2020
39
How do you know they've followed the law for the previous time when now there needs to be an email about the next 6 weeks?

So CDPR's managers say they want to avoid overtime, but they are so bad at it that for a year choose to pay people 150-200% instead of hiring adequate staff to pay them at 100% to work normal hours? 6 weeks paying for overtime makes sense because hiring takes time. A year does not.
Because it would be easily winnable case in Polish labor court, if CDPR didn't paid overtime before.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
I think it's also a good reminder to people, that game being released buggy (unfinished) usually definitely doesn't mean lazy or incompetent developers. It's more that they didn't have enough time or help, while working their asses off.
 

Angie

Best Avatar Thread Ever!
Member
Nov 20, 2017
39,391
Kingdom of Corona
The responses here for the most part are far more tame when a similar thread was made for a different studio. Wonder why.
Still no thread asking people to boycott this game like the last time.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
The responses here for the most part are far more tame when a similar thread was made for a different studio. Wonder why.
Still no thread asking people to boycott this game like the last time.
Not sure if you want people being angry about crunch or not. As your own tone is pretty different here, than in
that different thread where you were trying to move the attention to China's slave labour instead.
 

Amnixia

▲ Legend ▲
The Fallen
Jan 25, 2018
10,411
Just fucking delay your game lol, this shit ain't worth human suffering.
 

Angie

Best Avatar Thread Ever!
Member
Nov 20, 2017
39,391
Kingdom of Corona
Not sure if you want people being angry about crunch or not. As your own tone is pretty different here, than in
that different thread where you were trying to move the attention to China's slave labour instead.
Me is exactly the same, than there was there.
But I see a diferent tone than there was there.
 

Henrar

Member
Nov 27, 2017
1,905
One thing omitted in the article is the information that Polish labor laws are very strict concerning overtime. And overtime hourly pay rate is 150% of base, and 200 % if overtime extends to night
I hope you realise that this applies only to specific forms of employment. IT in Poland is notorious for using three others form of contracts (B2B, specific task contract, fee for task agreements). Labor laws don't apply to those.
 

alstrike

Banned
Aug 27, 2018
2,151
I didn't expect less from CDPR but hey they're giving me a remastered version of TW3 for free.

Now let's hit up Hollie on Twitter and see what she has to say about this, oh wait she was all busy talking about body tans but hasn't tweeted a word in a day.

Let's see if this has any effect on CDPR share price or if the stock market doesn't give a shit about it.

Night City Wire Ep 4: Crunch is a hell of drug
 

Roytheone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,140
The whole AAA gaming industry has such a terrible work culture. This will never be solved on individual studios basis, this needs to be handled in an industry wide shake up.


I didn't expect less from CDPR but hey they're giving me a remastered version of TW3 for free.

Now let's hit up Hollie on Twitter and see what she has to say about this, oh wait she was all busy talking about body tans but hasn't tweeted a word in a day.

Let's see if this has any effect on CDPR share price or if the stock market doesn't give a shit about it.

Night City Wire Ep 4: Crunch is a hell of drug

All AAA studios do crunch and I never seen it impact stock prices. Delays though definitely would.
 

Ωλ7XL9

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,250
The responses here for the most part are far more tame when a similar thread was made for a different studio. Wonder why.
Still no thread asking people to boycott this game like the last time.

Were people calling for boycotting last of us part 2 :(, crunch is painful for any team in any industry. But seriously tell me how is boycotting a game going to help? It makes the situation worse no? All the blood sweat and tears poured into the game and the game gets boycotted, doesn't hit sales expectations. This boycotting thing isn't a solution for improving the working conditions. Companies need to take responsibility, assess situations, perhaps not set unrealistic timelines for their devs to meet/adhere.
 
Nov 11, 2017
2,249
You forgot the part with lying about no microtransactions (inb4 apologists claim that was only said for single player, not true) or the various features they said would be in game only for them to be cut. And yes the crunch is also a big factor.
Them cutting features is a solution to reduce overtime (and is common with... ALL game development?), and adding microtransactions really doesn't matter at all compared to criticisms of how they treat their staff.
 

Speely

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,995
The reality is there isn't one AAA game the size of cyberpunk that doesn't have crunch. Period. Not Valve, Naughty Dog, Platinum Games, Rockstar, ID Software, Square Enix, nobody. Like why did they even promise crunch wasn't gonna happen when that's baked into the creation of these things.

Yep. This is the price of current AAA games.
 

Deleted member 46948

Account closed at user request
Banned
Aug 22, 2018
8,852
Man I don't think I've seen a single piece of coverage about this game that increased my desire to buy it in, like, 2 years.

Every single piece of news makes me less interested.

Yup, this.
Also to the people who say "crunch isn't caused by mismanagement" - anecdotal evidence, but every single crunch I've gone through in 20 years of this work was caused by someone up on high not budgeting time properly or fucking up in some other way. Every single one.
 

VG Aficionado

Member
Nov 6, 2017
1,385
Crunch is inevitable as release date approaches. Also, being so close to next generation systems launch and Xmas... it's like the absolute worst time for a highly anticipated game. These people aren't getting a break until well into next year.
 

Glio

Member
Oct 27, 2017
24,497
Spain
It's crazy the amount of free passes CDPR gets when even half of the stuff they've been pulling would cause a mob with any other company.
They have cultivated an image of "We are not like other companies, we are not moved by greed, we create games for you, gamer".

And people have believed it.
 

Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,293
I really wonder how much longer AAA development can go on like this.

2077 has been in development for the better part of a decade, has seen multiple delays, and they're still straining to finish on time.
It's only gonna get worse next gen what with how much people fetishize slight improvements in framerate and resolution which, imo, takes a whole lot more work than it's worth.

The gamers want it and will complain at any slight disappointment in performance, it's not hard to see why it's come to this.
 

Samiya

Alt Account
Banned
Nov 30, 2019
4,811
Better management won't solve this. We need unionization. That's the only way this will ever get fixed.
 

Kuni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
307
It's stuff exactly like this why I don't work in the games industry anymore. The implications of crunch are heavy and wide. The affects it can have on the culture alone are devastating (not a "team player", etc...)

Ironically it won't even help as much as they think, those people are going to be exhausted and their productivity severely hampered with only one day off a week for the next 6. Sorry to all affected.
 

Banzai

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
2,585
Meanwhile I would start a strike if I had to work a single hour more than my 35 hour work week. Dont wanna victim blame but damn they need to unionize.
 
Dec 27, 2019
6,069
Seattle
Well delaying apparently only delays the crunch.
I don't know why people are repeating this nonsensical stuff. Changing from 5 day work weeks to 6 day work weeks for the final couple months is a specific amount of time- about 8 days. A week, a week and a half of extra work that they're squeezing out of people.

Someone sat down, looked at what they had left to do, and decided that they needed this specific amount of extra time to finish. And more importantly, someone else looked at that amount of time, and decided that they were going to squeeze that extra work out of people instead of just delaying the game for those 2 weeks.

So the question is, if the game only needed a couple extra weeks of work, why not delay the game a couple more weeks? And the answer is almost certainly because they don't want to miss out on any holiday sales. Would missing those holiday sales keep the devs from getting paid? Nope. Would it reduce profits for the owners? Yep. And that's why they're crunching. It's unnecessary for the game, it's unnecessary for the workers, it is only necessary in order to maximize profits for the owners.