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Catherine: Full Body's western localization will remove Erica's deadname in the credits, transphobic lines of dialogue have been changed too

HylianSeven

HylianSeven

Shin Megami TC - Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,241
Neoxon said:
That's what I'm the most curious about at this point. If I recall, didn't they remove some transphobic content from Persona 3: FES. Maybe there's hope that the same could happen with Persona 5 Royal.
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I don't know of any was removed but there's definitely some present in P3FES.

83Kcgih.png


I can't find a screenshot with the specific line I'm thinking of, but it's this scene. Junpei takes the boys on "Operation Babe Hunt" on the beach and they go around talking to girls. The "Beautiful Lady?" here Junpei says something like "Is that stubble on her chin? Whoooooooa, she's a he, watch out!" It's very fucked up.
 
Pariah

Pariah

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,947
Damn, I read too much... Oh well, it's not like the trailers were subtle about it. It's a surprising but welcome move by the studio. What's curious is, we'll now have two versions of Vincent: the intolerant asshole, and the respectful, open-minded man. Though still controversial, it would have been interesting, a game where you could choose between both, instead of being funneled into one or the other.
 
Rotobit

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
Neoxon said:
That's what I'm the most curious about at this point. If I recall, didn't they remove some transphobic content from Persona 3: FES? Maybe there's hope that the same could happen with Persona 5 Royal.
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You might be thinking of Persona 3 Portable swapping out the "Operation Babe Hunt" for something a lot better if you went through as the Female Main Character. It's still present if you're the male MC, though.
 
captainpat

captainpat

Member
Nov 15, 2017
877
Good, I'm usually against censorship but the way the game treats Erica is so weird. They make her really cool and likable but then have all these dumb transphobic shit. Her story is gonna read a lot better without all that crap.
 
Scrambled Brambles

Scrambled Brambles

Member
Jun 23, 2018
774
Canada
This is a win for normal people who want progress, and thus a loss for the "free speech" crowd. If the presentation wasn't originally transphobic, and it was altered to have extra transphobia added, they wouldn't be crying "censorship" or "original artistic vision", or whatever their buzzword of the month is, because censorship is just a convenient term for them to jump on to pretend growing up and respecting people who aren't like you is a bad thing and a cultural poison. Gamers stubbornly resist positive change more than old white men from the 50s. You can see the hypocrisy and doublethink when they cry foul about one thing being censorship but then cheer when things they don't like, such as gay storylines, do get censored.
 

Deleted member 19066

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,826
Sign My Guestbook! said:
Holy shit. I just realized you can quote The Matrix here. I am probably not the first, I'm sure.

"You hear that, Mr. Anderson? That is the sound of inevitability. That is the sound of your death. Goodbye, Mr. Anderson."

"My name... is Neo!"
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It's pretty appropriate. In an earlier screenplay, the more androgynous looking woman in their crew was going to be a different character who would appear as a man in the real world but a woman in the matrix, implying they were transgender.

... Not to mention both Wachowskis are trans. :p (which, looking at the odds, is pretty extraordinary.)
 
Yata

Yata

Member
Feb 1, 2019
2,962
Spain
The credits change is great, I have absolutely no objections regarding it, it was both disrespectful and thoughtless.

With that said, I see no point changing Vincent's lines, the original devs are still getting your money with no consequences and I personally don't agree with the notion of changing established characters. Vincent was an asshole in the original release.

EDIT: Hope this means they also remove the bottom of the barrel homophobic jokes in P5R.
 

Deleted member 426

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,273
I had taken Catherine off my to buy lost because of this. Now I might get it. Hopefully they take not when it comes to Persona 5 as well.
 
BlueKoopa

BlueKoopa

Member
Apr 28, 2019
83
Indiana
Glad they wised up. Hopefully the younger team members on P Studios that so obviously wanna get their shit together will be able to.
 
TechnoSyndrome

TechnoSyndrome

Member
May 15, 2019
2,499
I feel weird about this, because even if they fixed that stuff I still don't want to support this game given the trash in the Japanese version. I kind of wish they'd kept it as-is for the localization just so more people could get upset and demand better from future Atlus games. I fully expect the same kind of stuff to be in the next Persona game.
 
SamWilson

SamWilson

Alt account
Banned
Mar 14, 2019
217
Haven't played the game yet, but had been meaning to since PS3.

Will have to wait to see how much else is changed, if anything. I see the game is on PlayStation Now also, so at least that's always an avenue to play it if they change too much.
 
TheEchosOfTheCyborg

TheEchosOfTheCyborg

Member
Feb 24, 2018
5,324
Could we get that Twitter channel done for Libel if we really wanted to?

Also LOCALISATION IS NOT CENSORSHIP, while not always great (see Nintendo erasing Vivian trans identity in Mario, the infamous "Jelly doughnuts" from Pokemon, the even more infamous, "OH NO, Sailor Uranus and Neptune are just "sisters"!!!" BS, the One Piece fiasco and just most of the changes in YGO abridged or changes thast cause issues for other countries because sometimes dubbers don't consider other western countries, it's not government mandated and instead artistic changes, either good or bad (good in this case).
 
sugururu

sugururu

Member
Apr 16, 2019
60
that twitter is so pathetic, why the hell is it still up? how has it not been report bombed into oblivion and taken down for obvious stalking and harassment lmao

Anyway, good on Atlus USA. Erica deserves better. god forbid she get some respect after the way they treated her in the first game.
 
Sgt. Demblant

Sgt. Demblant

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,030
France
Good that they're doing it. But it still sucks that they had to in the first place.
I've been feeling quite conflicted about Atlus since Persona 5. I'm not even boycotting their games, I just... Have zero interest in their products anymore.
 

Deleted member 984

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,203
Atlus really needs to get their house in order in regards to diversity issues. They could easily just not include it in the first place to not cause offence but they always seem to go out of their way to offend people instead.
 
dude

dude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,702
Tel Aviv
Honestly, I find these changes idiotic and 100% unsatisfactory. The actual of the character's narrative is laced with blatant transphobia, removing a few of the worst lines doesn't really solve the issue with the character IMO. I mean, I guess this is the best Atlus USA could do, but this still feels like painting a smile on it and claiming they "fixed it."
 

Mecaknight

Banned
Oct 2, 2018
155
GC- said:
Atlus really needs to get their house in order in regards to diversity issues. They could easily just not include it in the first place to not cause offence but they always seem to go out of their way to offend people instead.
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To be fair, the outrage never really comes from their fanbase, but mostly from loud people who wouldn't buy it anyway.
Transphobia is the one argument that ERA is using right now, but there are plenty of other reasons for them to not buy it. So Atlus removes what would give them really bad press but won't bother to do more.
 
Pop-O-Matic

Pop-O-Matic

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
12,987
Mecaknight said:
To be fair, the outrage never really comes from their fanbase, but mostly from loud people who wouldn't buy it anyway.
Transphobia is the one argument that ERA is using right now, but there are plenty of other reasons for them to not buy it. So Atlus removes what would give them really bad press but won't bother to do more.
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I mean, there's been a shitload of longtime Atlus/SMT/Persona fans in these threads saying they wouldn't be supporting them anymore due to the blatant bigotry that's been present as of late, but yeah, let's just claim everyone who's been critical of this shit's just a hater trying to find whatever excuse they can to dunk on your favorite dev.
 
Griffith

Griffith

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,585
It's a shame that this ended up being lost cause. Good on them for trying to remove some of the issues with the lines but changing the game's scenes is probably something that was out of their budget for a game with a niche appeal. I did enjoy the original game. For all its faults I enjoyed the premise and found the small questions between levels insightful.

I sympathize with people that say that this is a small fix that doesn't fix the underlying issue but I also understand that from the perspective of a localization team there are probably some areas where their hands are tied unless they were to make new scenes, but I don't think that is within their budget. Hopefully this will lead to less mistakes like this being made in the future, but given my perception of Japanese culture I somehow feel it's not the last time we will see something like this happen in their games.
 
mieumieu

mieumieu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
900
The Farplane
Griffith said:
It's a shame that this ended up being lost cause. Good on them for trying to remove some of the issues with the lines but changing the game's scenes is probably something that was out of their budget for a game with a niche appeal. I did enjoy the original game. For all its faults I enjoyed the premise and found the small questions between levels insightful.

I sympathize with people that say that this is a small fix that doesn't fix the underlying issue but I also understand that from the perspective of a localization team there are probably some areas where their hands are tied unless they were to make new scenes, but I don't think that is within their budget. Hopefully this will lead to less mistakes like this being made in the future, but given my perception of Japanese culture I somehow feel it's not the last time we will see something like this happen in their games.
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Japan is one of the most progressive countries in Asia regarding LGBT issues and they have produced good portrayal of trans people in media before. Your perception of Japan is at best flawed although I don't have much hope in ATLUS (specifically) becoming better in this aspect.

Pop-O-Matic said:
I mean, there's been a shitload of longtime Atlus/SMT/Persona fans in these threads saying they wouldn't be supporting them anymore due to the blatant bigotry that's been present as of late, but yeah, let's just claim everyone who's been critical of this shit's just a hater trying to find whatever excuse they can to dunk on your favorite dev.
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I personally haven't bought anything from persona-related teams since Persona 4 Golden.
 

Mecaknight

Banned
Oct 2, 2018
155
User Banned (Permanent): Rationalising transphobia; Dismissing concerns as outrage culture. Account in junior phase.
Pop-O-Matic said:
I mean, there's been a shitload of longtime Atlus/SMT/Persona fans in these threads saying they wouldn't be supporting them anymore due to the blatant bigotry that's been present as of late, but yeah, let's just claim everyone who's been critical of this shit's just a hater trying to find whatever excuse they can to dunk on your favorite dev.
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Atlus is a japanese company, and Japan is more bigoted society than the US, what's considered wrong there isn't the same as what's considered wrong in the rest of the world and that's fine. Wanting to erase everything that rubs you the wrong way will never be okay. You can judge a piece of work as tasteless, trashy and plain bad, bad mouth it on the internet, but erasing parts in order to avoid to schock the audience is the worst way to deal with something like that. Westerners don't hold special universal values that should be acknowledged by the entire world. There's some sort of cultural colonialism going on here that shouldn't be praised.
 
Quacktion

Quacktion

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,503
JB2448 said:
It gets better and better.
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"Sticking to their principles" cool so he's willing to die on this hill when pedophilia comes into play. You should ABSOLUTELY deal with everything on a case to case basis, otherwise youre dealing in absolutes and that can get real ugly real fast. This is the scary thing about these people, the ease to mobilise under one simple slogan and double down when needed, no thought required.
 

FormatCompatible

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,071
Mecaknight said:
Atlus is a japanese company, and Japan is more bigoted society than the US, what's considered wrong there isn't the same as what's considered wrong in the rest of the world and that's fine. Wanting to erase everything that rubs you the wrong way will never be okay. You can judge a piece of work as tasteless, trashy and plain bad, bad mouth it on the internet, but erasing parts in order to avoid to schock the audience is the worst way to deal with something like that. Westerners don't hold special universal values that should be acknowledged by the entire world. There's some sort of cultural colonialism going on here that shouldn't be praised.
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You know what else shouldn't be praised, the blatant transphobia at display on your post and the excuse that Japan "is just different" and somehow it's totally okay for them (and other "non-western cultures" as your post implies) to mock and harass trans people for just existing and wanting to be respected as human beings.
 
phonicjoy

phonicjoy

Banned
Jun 19, 2018
4,305
Mecaknight said:
Atlus is a japanese company, and Japan is more bigoted society than the US, what's considered wrong there isn't the same as what's considered wrong in the rest of the world and that's fine. Wanting to erase everything that rubs you the wrong way will never be okay. You can judge a piece of work as tasteless, trashy and plain bad, bad mouth it on the internet, but erasing parts in order to avoid to schock the audience is the worst way to deal with something like that. Westerners don't hold special universal values that should be acknowledged by the entire world. There's some sort of cultural colonialism going on here that shouldn't be praised.
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Move to Iran or China and see how far that moral relativism Will get you.
 
mieumieu

mieumieu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
900
The Farplane
phonicjoy said:
Move to Iran or China and see how far that moral relativism Will get you.
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Well to be more precise, Iran is a sorta trans healthcare hotspot due to homophobia (their interpretation of holy texts condemns homosexuality but allows straight trans persons), and China's more about disapproval of LGBT activism (like any other forms of political activism) rather than pure existence of LGBT people.

Not excusing what these governments do, just some perspective.

Oh and not gonna quote that banned person but their view of Japan is grossly outdated.
 

Zelas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,020
Its progress but they still need to do more with this game for me to consider a purchase. And honestly I'd still probably say no considering this still doesnt resolve the source of these issues at Atlus. I can't support those folks.
 
Kivvi

Kivvi

Member
Jun 25, 2018
1,708
Pop-O-Matic said:
I mean, there's been a shitload of longtime Atlus/SMT/Persona fans in these threads saying they wouldn't be supporting them anymore due to the blatant bigotry that's been present as of late, but yeah, let's just claim everyone who's been critical of this shit's just a hater trying to find whatever excuse they can to dunk on your favorite dev.
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There was a pull made if people would buy new Atlus games and 60% said yes and only 15% said never again...I have no idea how many posters voted tho but it was at the time where Era got the first impressions of the new endings in Catherine.
 
Griffith

Griffith

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,585
mieumieu said:
Japan is one of the most progressive countries in Asia regarding LGBT issues and they have produced good portrayal of trans people in media before. Your perception of Japan is at best flawed although I don't have much hope in ATLUS (specifically) becoming better in this aspect.
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I apologize for being ignorant regarding Japan's legislation towards LGBT people. I was speaking mostly from the perspective of someone that consumes Japanese media and how Transgender or Transvestite characters are portrayed in it. Unfortunately, they are generally not portrayed kindly or respectfully.

Even on a currently airing or well-respected show like Carole & Tuesday, from the creator of Cowboy Bebop, has a trans character
and it has been implied that she was abusive and traumatized her own child in the past.
I'm not trying to defend this depiction of course but I just can't think of many depictions of transgender characters in anime or games that are portrayed in a positive or respectful manner.

The way LGBT characters tend to be portrayed is outdated and hurtful in most of the examples I've seen or can recall. One of the rare exceptions I can think of is Genshiken which, at its second part,
features a character that struggles with their gender identity and explores their feelings towards another club member.
 
phonicjoy

phonicjoy

Banned
Jun 19, 2018
4,305
mieumieu said:
Well to be more precise, Iran is a sorta trans healthcare hotspot due to homophobia (their interpretation of holy texts condemns homosexuality but allows straight trans persons), and China's more about disapproval of LGBT activism (like any other forms of political activism) rather than pure existence of LGBT people.

Not excusing what these governments do, just some perspective.

Oh and not gonna quote that banned person but their view of Japan is grossly outdated.
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Wasnt referring to LGBT rights in particular, as I assumed the person wasnt themselves a part of that community. But point taken.
 
PK Gaming

PK Gaming

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,331
Mecaknight said:
Atlus is a japanese company, and Japan is more bigoted society than the US, what's considered wrong there isn't the same as what's considered wrong in the rest of the world and that's fine. Wanting to erase everything that rubs you the wrong way will never be okay. You can judge a piece of work as tasteless, trashy and plain bad, bad mouth it on the internet, but erasing parts in order to avoid to schock the audience is the worst way to deal with something like that. Westerners don't hold special universal values that should be acknowledged by the entire world. There's some sort of cultural colonialism going on here that shouldn't be praised.
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Love this defense

It's like Japan is this static, unchanging country (it's not) and there aren't people over there complaining about transphobic content in their home games (there are)

But sure, let's go with your myopic view of the country to justify keeping content the same, even though Hashino himself has stated the following:

  • Hashino states that Catherine: Full Body is a complete version of the concept from the previous game, which can be delivered because the sense of values has been diversified since 7 years ago. The existence of Rin, the new character, is someone who makes it possible for others to find new values represented in this game.
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You people are trash. The people quoting this thread on twitter and making a show of cancelling their pre-order are trash. Anyone who writes off an entire country as being unchanging, bigoted place is trash.
 
Zacmortar

Zacmortar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,383
Everytime people try to say "B-but Rin is a real gay route though!" I die more inside.

Just because a gay exists doesn't make them good, and Not All Representation Is Good Representation.
 
BeaconofTruth

BeaconofTruth

Member
Dec 30, 2017
3,464
Good, for my money it's Atlus's best game so I'm glad the conversation around the game can be about the games better qualities and less about a shit heel joke by an out of touch old man.
 
L Thammy

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,134
I'm trying to remember, I'm pretty sure there are anime I've seen years back that weren't specifically focused on gay / trans issues and yet still had gay / trans characters as more than things to mock. Levin from Tekkaman Blade (1992) had an audience fake-out shower scene and has some of the gay-trans confusion going on, but otherwise they're a valuable mechanic and team member.

Infinite Ryvius (1999) had a trans female character, Criff Clay, who... well, it's hard to say what she does without going into details, but there's nothing specifically trans there, it's moreso a female role. I actually didn't realize she was supposed to be trans when I finished watching because it's apparently just referred in a single throwaway line, but it's confirmed (inelegantly) on the official website.
The show's about a schoolful of students adrift in an advanced spaceship. Criff is a member of a group of punks who decide to take over the ship using force and run it their way; she and her sister seduce one of the bridge crew to help them get inside. It later turns out that she's disturbed by how things are going and the guy she seduces ends up actually caring about her, and so she starts actually returning his affection and her attitude softens. Her sister, who is the worse of the two, mockingly her a boy once, which is the only thing indicating she's trans in the show.

Not that I'm itching to call these great examples, but I'm just trying to highlight that Japanese media - even within the nerdy anime watcher sphere - is still formed by a large number of people with varied ideas and opinions, just like anywhere else.
 
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