The just need to read the one you called me one. Again you are reported.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Catalan separatist leaders given lengthy prison sentences
- Thread starter Ferrs
- Start date
The just need to read the one you called me one. Again you are reported.
Don't break the law if you don't want to go to prison. Isn't that simple?
Also lol at comparing 1981 Spain with today. Talk about manipulation.
This is pretty much it. In 2010, support for independence was about 20%, then Artur Mas decided to blame austerity policies on the central government and start pushing for independence, and here we are now.
That all of "their" tax money goes on improving places like Andalusia - where they are just lazy and don't like to work - when it could be better spent on places in Catalonia instead
manipulation? You mean the law inside the actual constitution made at 1978?
Holy fuck this is straight out xenophobia. But yeah this is the actual separatist rhetoric. Isn't it amazing?
I would call it more classism than xenophobia in this instance - but yes that kind of rhetoric is disgusting
Admittedly, I am just a guy from the UK with a slight interest in Spain, so should add that this may well not be reflective of discourse around the subject in general, but has been in my experience (and its not just a couple of people). But do stand by my point about any real referendum having the huge potential to snowball into a full on culture war like Brexit has. I think Kmags suggestion there might be rooted in his own support for Scottish Independence :P
Just to clarify - these are views that I disagree with massively, I was just pointing out the parallels I have seen between Brexit voters and some Catalan nationalists I happen to know (and am quoting there). The person who made that particular statement is someone I no longer speak to - precisely because I found those views offensive.
Anyway, I should probably stop now, the UK gets enough attention as it is, and this thread is about Spain!
That's actually why Spain does not support secessionist movements in EU countries.
Yes and in 1981 I wasnt born, we used PESETAS for like 18 more years and you could go watch a movie for $2.71
Arguing in bad faith like this is what gives the movement a bad image
It's honestly astonishing to me we're at the point where a US president is offering to not support HK in return for a trade deal vs the other way around. The position of the last 70 years would be the opposite, to exert pressure on them to back off of HK to reach a trade deal. Like why do we have all these carrier strike groups over there if not for Taiwan and HK. It's insanity.
A few people aren't super happy with the sentence. They've done a Hong Kong and are occupying the airport.
Yes, and just like Ice T shouldn't be arrested and imprisoned for penning "Cop Killer", nor should this rapper for criticizing Spain. This is literally a person being imprisoned for their ideas, so your entire claim that Spain isn't a place where that happens is bullshit.
Ahhh poor and sweet old Catalunya, what have they done to you.
The spanish goverment has dropped the ball countless of times, but holy fuck the independentist goverment has completely fucked Catalunya up.
By the way, the twit above was false or misinformed. The sentences above were about ~30 years.
Let's take some examples here:
- Barcenas, a member of the Popular Party (terrible and right-wing oriented party, btw) has been sentenced to 33 years for corruption
- Correa, another high class guy, was sentenced to 51 years, for corruption
- A bunch of people were sentenced to 14 years for interrupting an independentist demonstration
Oh, and Spain has very soft prison laws. Everybody expects these politicians to be out with their families in 2 years, maybe even less.
The Jordis are expected to enjoy Christmas this year with their families.
There's a lot of things that need to be fixed here in Spain, a lot, like in other countries, I suppose. And the monarchy is, to me at least, useless and a completely outdated thing that belongs in the middle ages.
But for the love of god, as a catalan myself (labelled as a colono, a colonist, or a charnego, an offensive term oriented to those living in Catalunya that do not follow the independentist movement) I pray to you to not buy their bullshit. They have extremely powerful propaganda tools and will make you believe that they are oppressed and under total tirany.
It only takes two brain cells to know that it isn't true. BTW, Torra mentioned that no other region in the world has suffered what Catalunya has. Let that sink in for a moment.
Had a terrible experience yesterday at Barcelona's airport. My flight was at 20.20 but because of all the confusion I decided to go early and left my apartment at 2pm. Took the subway as far as I could and then walked 4km to terminal 2. The shuttle to terminal 1 wasn't working and police had no idea how we could get there, they kept telling us bad directions. We then walked another hour to terminal 1 along with the protesters, everything peaceful so far. We managed to get in the lobby of terminal 1 but protesters were blocking the entrance to the check-in and departure area. Then things escalated quickly outside between the police and the protesters, with them throwing bottles and using fire extinguishers against the police. I wasn't in the hot zone, but as far as I could tell police were being very prudent and civil and protesters were the first ones to use some sorte of force. Then we were basically trapped in this lobby area with nowhere to go to safely. The was nothing to eat. There were entire families with toddlers, people with disabilities in wheelchairs that had nowhere to go and no one told us anything. I was with a girl that was flying home for her grandfather's funeral.
The matter of independence is between a country, the region and its people. It's not my place to know who's right or not. But this protest rubbed me the wrong way. If any catalans who were at the protest would like to give their take on the issue I would love to read it. Why was it fair to prevent others from seeing their families or going to work? Do ends justify means?
Another thing that surprised me was how young were the protesters. I'd say the average age was 20-30yo. I understand that youngsters have the motivation to find a cause to fight for, but I doubt most people there had a deep understanding of the situation, of what it means to live under an authoritative regime (as they would chant) and what it actually means to fight for freedom. Most of them were having a blast and partying, like it was just a cool way to spend the evening.
I'm sorry if this seems cruel and very first-world problem and I do understand that a people's will is more important than me having a bad day, but it rubbed me the wrong way.
The matter of independence is between a country, the region and its people. It's not my place to know who's right or not. But this protest rubbed me the wrong way. If any catalans who were at the protest would like to give their take on the issue I would love to read it. Why was it fair to prevent others from seeing their families or going to work? Do ends justify means?
Another thing that surprised me was how young were the protesters. I'd say the average age was 20-30yo. I understand that youngsters have the motivation to find a cause to fight for, but I doubt most people there had a deep understanding of the situation, of what it means to live under an authoritative regime (as they would chant) and what it actually means to fight for freedom. Most of them were having a blast and partying, like it was just a cool way to spend the evening.
I'm sorry if this seems cruel and very first-world problem and I do understand that a people's will is more important than me having a bad day, but it rubbed me the wrong way.
Paquete_PT
Not that I necessarily agree with how it went down, but the logic is that a protest needs to be as disruptive as possible (without resorting to violence, hopefully) for it to hope to achieve any form of success. Unfortunately this means that some people get caught in some sort of collateral, despite they literally being faultless.
Not that I think that both situation are comparable, but Hongkongers also disrupted the airport, and the events yesterday took inspiration from that
Not that I necessarily agree with how it went down, but the logic is that a protest needs to be as disruptive as possible (without resorting to violence, hopefully) for it to hope to achieve any form of success. Unfortunately this means that some people get caught in some sort of collateral, despite they literally being faultless.
Not that I think that both situation are comparable, but Hongkongers also disrupted the airport, and the events yesterday took inspiration from that
I understand that. And it makes sense from a capitalist point of view to target the airport, it's the place that will cause the most disruption to a country's economy and international relationships. But I'm not sure if that's the way to go. And violence is relative, sure they didn't throw punches at anyone, but is it okay to keep children and elders locked in a place with no food? I think the moment you admit ends justify means, specially when you're not the one being damaged by those means (the protest had barely any consequences for the ones doing it), then that's the point you start losing the argument. But this is my point of view in any sort of protest, not necessarily exclusive to this one
It's not for criticizing Spain so clearly you have no fucking clue what you are talking about.
By the way, go read Valtonyc's sentence and then come back to try to lecture me.
What a joke of sentence.
Sedition in stead of rebellion. You gotta be fucking kidding me.
'Gent de pau' my ass.
These are just some examples of how the so called 'People of Peace' who are Independentists, attack people (or even children) for wearing the Spanish Flag.
Nor PSOE or PP had the balls to do the necessary thing and supress completely the Autonomy of Cataluña when they had to. Nationalists in Cataluña have been mocking of the central government for years, while brainwashing their voters against our fellow compatriots.
We, the Spanish people (where I also include Catalonians), have been sold to fight between us by politicians who only wanted to make themseles richer.
Sedition in stead of rebellion. You gotta be fucking kidding me.
'Gent de pau' my ass.
These are just some examples of how the so called 'People of Peace' who are Independentists, attack people (or even children) for wearing the Spanish Flag.
Nor PSOE or PP had the balls to do the necessary thing and supress completely the Autonomy of Cataluña when they had to. Nationalists in Cataluña have been mocking of the central government for years, while brainwashing their voters against our fellow compatriots.
We, the Spanish people (where I also include Catalonians), have been sold to fight between us by politicians who only wanted to make themseles richer.
Don't remember Ice T glorifying a terrorist group that killed over 800 men, women and children, plenty of them innocent bystanders, and maimed countless others, and then asking for more of that because, you know, it kinda rules.
Fuck off.
Progressive people whose only sin was to be politically active lived in fear for years, under threat if imminent death. Now a 24 years old who didn't live through any of that because he isn't even from the area is just gonna rap about how cool it all is and how we so need more of it. Well, fuck him, he KNEW what the consequences could be. Agree or not with the laws, they are written, public and can be changed. This is a democratic country with a long history of violence. Know where you come from, and if you want to change things, propose said changes. Separatism isn't outlawed and plenty of political parties keep pushing for it in national and regional parliaments. Misuse of public funds, prevarication and terror apologism is.
Last edited:
Why not just give them the referendum they want. What I read here it will come out in favor of catalunya staying in Spain. Just don't get why it is so hard to accept, in a democratic state. Hench I would support it if one of our provinces wanted a referendum on Independence.
Because it's more complex than it seems.
A Referendum like that has to involve the whole people of Spain, not just from Catalonia. Only the Central State can call for a Referendum, not the local Government.
We would have to change the Constitution to allow so. And to do that... It would have to be voted by all Spanish people.
So, we would need to call a Referendum to allow another Referendum.
And I can already guarantee you that the first Referendum won't allow the latter.
Plus, the King would always have the last word on it.
Because (Very much like most democratic countries save for very specific cases like the UK or Canada) the Constitution doesn't contemplate a part of the country seceding. As a Spanish citizen, you are born with the right to be in Spain in Catalonia, with the garantee you won't suddenly be a foreigner in your own country.
The UK or Canada give the right to decide to their "nations" due to how their territorial system works, but that means the citizens are losing rights elsewhere. A UK citizen cannot be sure they won't have their country split in two some day.
Does the king in Spain, have that much power in a Constitution change? I believe here the two chambers of parlement must for it with 50% + 1 vote approving the change then there should be new elections and than both the chambers should vote on it with 75% approving the change. They usually plan a change to the constitution around a normal election.
I would assume the age of the protestors at the terminal also has to do with the trek involved in getting to the airport - I would also be weary without more knowledge to assume to know the reasoning for part-taking in demonstrations and direct action - in general only a small minority parttake for some hedonistic reason such as "partying" - the recasting of protestors outside of the reasons they put forward is questionable at best.
The King has no power whatsoever, in Spain or in any other constitutional monatchy. He has to approve the laws that pass Parliament. If he didn't that would be a huge constitutional crisis.
In 1990, the King of Belgium gave up his faculties for 36 hours out of conscience objection, in order not to sign himself the depenalization of abortion. Constitutional kings cannot prevent the passing of laws.
In 1990, the King of Belgium gave up his faculties for 36 hours out of conscience objection, in order not to sign himself the depenalization of abortion. Constitutional kings cannot prevent the passing of laws.
Nah, ours is useless as well (besides diplomatic affairs in where he is fucking ACE).
But, he has to approve these kind of things in a "symbolic way". He could also say no lol fuck you and it would be amazing to see.
Fair opinion piece from The Guardian:
About that last point, yeah, I am surprised how non-existant the news about this have been outside of Spain. I expected more.
The king would definitely not have the last word on anything. There's a complicated and intricate legal process that could make a referendum and Catalan independence happen legally, and it does not involve the king in any shape or form, at least not more than any other legal process in this country does.
Out of curiosity - have the politicians sentenced or the jordis framed their actions as civil disobedience?
Also this and the analysis that follows seems at odds with the facts about theoretical impossibilities of such a vote in this thread:
Last edited:
As far as I know, the Spanish constitution only allows binding referenda in which the whole country is allowed to vote. So doing it for a specific region would require a modification of the constitution, which would also have to introduce the possibility for a region to secede.
Modifying the constitution in Spain, specifically to reflect the possibility of secession, is a complex process involving a qualified majority vote in the congress, general elections, a second qualified majority vote and finally a referendum in which the whole country votes. So the legal way to independence is technically possible, but almost impossible to carry out in practice.
Thanks - in the guardian piece he makes it sound like a less complicated set-up (even if probable success is low) as it implies only a senate vote, as he seems if I read it correctly imply that a change of constitution is not needed(?):
" In practical terms, however, it hands a blocking vote to 40% of the senate. "
Since it talks about this 40% of the senate, I assume it's referring to the "normal" amendment process, in which a majority of 3/5 in congress and senate is needed. That would be enough to change the section of the constitution regarding referenda, but not to include the possibility of secession. Thus, it would be legal to hold a referendum on the independence of Catalonia where only catalans would vote, but there would still be no legal way to carry out the independence mandate if that was the outcome.
It might even be possible to just modify the organic law regulating referenda without modifying the constitution, requiring then only a majority vote in congress, with the caveat that the constitutional court might declare the referendum illegal. In any case, the big issue is what happens after the consultation.
The Jordis are the civil tie with the Political class.
That's what I said. It can be done, but it won't be done.
This would have been the smart option back in 2012, yes. But you have to take into account that there's this concept called "Unity of Spain" that most of the Spanish political parties firmly believe in. Basically, there is an historic argument of what constitutes Spain and when did it become a nation on itself. To this people waving the flag (Spanish if you are moderate, Franquist if you are a shitface) all day, the fact of having a referendum would be to go against the belief that Spain originated a millenia ago and thus the question needs to be always quashed to preserve this historical fantasy.
At the end of the day, this is just the culmination of the personality crisis Spain has always had. A country incapable of accepting its rich and diverse identities.
It's so sad to see that we are still in the us vs them mentality with people firmly believing they (Spain or Catalonia) are 100% right and the "enemy" is a brainwashed dummy. For every article showing someone punched for waving the Spanish flag you will find the same amount of shit for people waving the Estelada. If instead of arguing over anecdotic stuff people told to their politicians to stop fucking around and fix this mess, things would be different. Now with this sentences? That possibility is even further away.
God I hate my country.
I know what it is for, it's still wrong. Your statement was false, this case is an example of what you claimed "never happens in Spain".
Obviously I'm disagreeing with the law, the only reason I brought it up is because that poster claimed that people don't get imprisoned for their ideas. They clearly do. You can say "well that's the law in Spain" all you want, but that was never in dispute.
You're so fucking wrong my head aches reading you.
"Enaltecimiento del terrorismo" or advocating terrorism is a typified crime according to Spanish law, same goes for insults to the crown and making threats to another person. And that my friend is not imprisoning someone for their ideas.
Yeah, but Catalonia has been part of Spain ever since it was named Spain, so they are every bit as Spanish as every other Spaniard. Catalan nationalism is a late 19th Century phenomenon, in the context of racial nationalist theory.
Of course, these days they talk about the eternal Catalan nation, the war of succession and so forth, as an eternal struggle...
This rapper is hardly the first case of someone being fined or imprisoned for songs or protest or other views. There is a whole list of people who have had the Spanish government come down on them in a variety of ways, for things as ridiculous as photoshopping their own head on a picture of Jesus: https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can-europe-make-it/free-speech-under-siege-in-spain/
Hell, people have been prosecuted for the kinds of comments people make on this forum about people in the Trump administration. Amnesty International has maintained that these prosecutions are a violation of human rights, and that these songs/tweets/statements are not incitements to terrorism and fall under permissible expression under international law. The fact that "insults to the crown" are illegal is fucking preposterous on it's face, and such an obvious violation to freedom of speech that I can't believe you are defending it.
I have you on the ignore list but I'm gonna bite on this one.
Insults (injurias) can be taken to court, not just by the crown (in this case the State General Attorney) but by any Spanish citizen that feels their "honor or integrity" has been violated by someone.
So don't try to convince me that dumbass Balearic rapper (not even Catalan) is some sort of fucking martyr...