And with this the Catalan issue is gonna get worse again. Overall this sentence was expected, but to me it's too many years. There's probably gonna be a lot of protests going in Catalonia soon.
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Catalan separatist leaders given lengthy prison sentences
- Thread starter Ferrs
- Start date
And with this the Catalan issue is gonna get worse again. Overall this sentence was expected, but to me it's too many years. There's probably gonna be a lot of protests going in Catalonia soon.
Wow, thats a lot of time.
They did some pretty illegal stuff, I dont think that France or the US would have been more benevolent if something similar happened in Corsica or Texas, but still is sad that it ended like this.
They did some pretty illegal stuff, I dont think that France or the US would have been more benevolent if something similar happened in Corsica or Texas, but still is sad that it ended like this.
Well, you commit crimes, you get a prison sentence.
If this was any other country, nobody would bat an eye, but here somehow the right thing to do is to interfere in the judiciary power so that a movement that has shown time and time again to be intolerant, totalitarian and to wilfully crush the democratic rights of more than half of the population of Catalonia. .. Can be happy.
If this was any other country, nobody would bat an eye, but here somehow the right thing to do is to interfere in the judiciary power so that a movement that has shown time and time again to be intolerant, totalitarian and to wilfully crush the democratic rights of more than half of the population of Catalonia. .. Can be happy.
If there's a sizeable independence movement which has a credible claim to popular support in any region of any country, then the question should be put to the ballot box. Hiding behind the excuse of 'oh the constitution doesn't allow it" is shallow and will ultimately end in tears.
The US has had Texas secessionists for years. Don't think we've ever thrown them in jail for promoting it.
Well that's a grown up response. Ultimately, you're going to have societal issues when you have a region with a large percentage of the population want independence even if it's not a majority, and in the illegal referendum which caused this mess: you had 80% of 2.3 million (out of 5.4 million eligible voters) wanting independence. I don't see how you put that genie back in the bottle without a proper vote. Yes, it's nowhere near a majority but it's over 1/3rd of the eligible voters. That's problematic in any society.
If the majority don't want independence, have a fair and open referendum and put the issue to bed. Typically it takes two referendum events for that to happen (see Quebec) but it does happen.
For one part, this was going to reinvigorate the movement no matter what (even if it would be something like 5 years, or heck, even if there was no prison, as that would make them think it was ok to did what they did), for the other, they did pretty illegal stuff and I find it funny that is ok to basically rebel when they are talking of a Catalonian independency, and that they are "presos politics" while if the priest chained himself on the Franco tomb its totally ok to send that man to prison (ive read this take of some pro independentist friends on twitter).
For me, both would be illegal and trash and i would send both to prison. It can be one is ok becuase you believe in it and not the other.
Of course im also of the mind they should have let them vote officialy years back, we would have avoided this mess.
For me, both would be illegal and trash and i would send both to prison. It can be one is ok becuase you believe in it and not the other.
Of course im also of the mind they should have let them vote officialy years back, we would have avoided this mess.
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I mean, I think you are brushing over some pretty rough history that makes Catalan a good bit different than modern Texas relationship with the United States.
The Catalan separatist movement doesn't have credible popular support, the population is about evenly split and only a third is active electorally for independence, of course the nationalists claim they are the true Catalans and the ones who disagree are Spanish immigrants or colonizers.
Even then, the reason the Spanish territory is indivisible is because every Spaniard has the right to be in their own country. If less than 50% can just separate a region, that means the rest of people would suddenly either be foreigners in their own country (With a rather undemocratic and hostile government) or they would have to leave, which would amount to ethnic cleansing, but which the nationalists would love.
My family is from a small town in Girona.
The things ive heard from some pro-independetists there make my skin crawl (not from the news, not from a second hand, directly from their mouths with me present). They dont sound better than nazis.
Its fucking scary. That this is regarded by some friends in Barcelona as a beautiful completely peaceful movement makes me shake my head, they really dont know whats going in the rest of their comunidad autonoma.
Oh look, a person that doesnt know what he is actually talking about.
Half or close to half the population is not "credible support"? That's part of the problem that has led us here in my opinion, pretending the whole thing are just a couple of people and just ignoring the issue. That's what the Spanish government did for close to a decade, and it backfired terribly.
If you have almost half of the population supporting independence, then you have a crisis that you need to find ways to fix. Just pretending nothing is happening and that measures don't need to be taken makes the problem worse, because the people who support one position or the other won't suddenly go away.
They werent thrown in jail for promoting it, they did an illegal referendum and enacted actual laws to secede unilaterally against the will of most catalans.
Firstly: every single politician in the world is nationalist (with the exception of a tiny amount of internationalists who are usually communists). While that may seem like nitpicking, the use of nationalist as a implied pejorative is problematic because ultimately pretty every politician has the same basic worldview on this it's just the size of the unit of nationalism they pander to varies.
Secondly: If it's only 1/3rd, then have a legal referendum because it should be a cakewalk and would help put the issue to rest (although as we've seen in Quebec it normally takes two referendum events for it to really go away unless the first result is extremely one sided.)
Thirdly: I don't think anyone would say you could have less than 50% to separate a region. You can put any number of protections in a referendum to stop that sort of issue: turnout criteria or even the need for a super majority (say 60%) for a change in the status quo.
My point is once you've got a 1/3rd of the adult population wanting to separate, you really need to lance the boil somehow or things will inevitably end up violent. The easiest way for any Government to deal with this is to have a legal referendum early, and win it with a large enough margin that it removes any possibility of independence by showing the population is strongly against it. It gets tricky as in Scotland or Quebec where the margin of victory is small, but Quebec has shown a second referendum confirming the results of the first tends to remove the issue.
If China doesn't oppose separatist movements in other countries it creates a precedent for separatist movements in China to claim independence
They come from the same family of ideologies. You see them talking of "peoples" and eternal nations, of the nature of peoples, of how Spanish and Catalan peoples are eternally different and those who don't think like them are not real Catalans... Even in the news they are totalitarian and racist as all hell. Just look at Torra's articles lol.
The solution is not preventing the judicial power from doing its work, or violating the Constitution. Of course there is a big problem, but there are red lines.
User Warned: inappropriate commentary, please don't use 'retards' as a pejorative term
The thing is, while numbers vary it's mostly proven that less than 50% of the catalan population want independence while 80% aprox want to vote, for example to say NO, like me. A referendum 10 years ago would've solved the problem long term, but the politicians (local AND central) don't want to solve the issue, it's just such a juicy topic to deviate the public attention anytime they screw up that it's a goldmine for them.
Well, we have to accept that it's a very heterogenous movement and not everyone wants the independence for the same reason. Just as we can't infer most spanish people are fascists because on the 12th of October there were retards singing Cara el sol, doing the nazi salute, wearing svastiskas and threatening any non hetero-white-right-wing person we can't infer all the independence movement is based on hate and ignorance.
Well, we have to accept that it's a very heterogenous movement and not everyone wants the independence for the same reason. Just as we can't infer most spanish people are fascists because on the 12th of October there were retards singing Cara el sol, doing the nazi salute, wearing svastiskas and threatening any non hetero-white-right-wing person we can't infer all the independence movement is based on hate and ignorance.
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As a non-independentist Catalan, I think a referendum is the only way to finally settle this mess.
No one is really trying to help with the Catalonian confict. I'm so fucking sick of Spanish politicians using the Catalonian conflict for votes without actually proposing actual solutions other than prison time (which I understand needs to be given when the law is broken). They get their mouth full of words at how much they care for non-independentists here but what they actually do other than the honey pot? Just look at Arrimadas fleeing the fuck out of here to Madrid even though she "won" just for putting an example. She was surely so compromised with the non-independentist catalans issues!
We truly need a solution for this and prison ain't gonna do it, neither the useless talk of the "patriots" that knows so much about living in Catalonia when they're not even here.
No one is really trying to help with the Catalonian confict. I'm so fucking sick of Spanish politicians using the Catalonian conflict for votes without actually proposing actual solutions other than prison time (which I understand needs to be given when the law is broken). They get their mouth full of words at how much they care for non-independentists here but what they actually do other than the honey pot? Just look at Arrimadas fleeing the fuck out of here to Madrid even though she "won" just for putting an example. She was surely so compromised with the non-independentist catalans issues!
We truly need a solution for this and prison ain't gonna do it, neither the useless talk of the "patriots" that knows so much about living in Catalonia when they're not even here.
Yeah, thats also true. I just feel is a complete different movement in Barcelona compared to Girona, thats what I wanted to state there, not that everyone is the same. And i hate as much spanish nationalists. they are all a bunch of fucking hypocrites at best and fucking scum at worse.
The thing is im afraid (even if only a part of it is rotten) that violent acts are more near than ever. Me having family there (which a very small part of them being pro incependece), im afraid for them.
And as I said in my post, an official referendum some years ago was the way to go. Probably also now.
Racism is actually more prominent among Spanish nationalism and the so-called constitutionalism. Just look at Vox, PP or Ciudadanos. Sure, there are a few minor nazi groups among Catalan independentism but they've been constantly kicked out of demos and public meetings while pro-Spanish demos even ended up sometimes with immigrants being beaten.
It's all politicians being shitstains. Those who wish for unionism and those who wish for independence. In the end they all just want to line their own pockets.
Look at the current President de la Generalitat. People seem to forget his racist remarks towards other Spaniards. Fuck all extreme nationalists. Both for the unity of Spain and for the independence of Catalonia.
Good, bunch of politicians and people angry that tax from Catalonia helps support poorer people in rest of Spain. It's an independence movement rooted in classism. It has nothing to do with Catalan identity because they already have that autonomy to protect that.
Fuck the Spanish state and fuck the Spaniards that support these sentences, specifically for Jordi Sànchez and Jordi Cuixart, you know who you are. :)
Thats not completely true. The support for this types of groups in place like Girona are high even officialy.
The problem here is numbers. As there are less people who live in Catalonia than in Spain as whole theres always going to be more trash. But dont get me wrong, both are shitstains no matter how big or small they are. And lets not forget people like Torra dont sound any better than Abascal in some of the nationalist stuff, thats not a "minor nazi group", tharts their government leader spouting shit.
I wouldnt even call it racist because neither spanish nor catalonian are races, its just a different type of nationalist trash,. while Vox is indeed nationalist, racist and homphobes.
I sort of get the politicians sentences, but for the Jordis? Good Lord what a fuckup
Now wait until Pedrito takes credit for this and when there's some sentence he doesn't like he'll start parroting the separation of powers. Fucker.
That's why Torra offered Catalana ports for immigrants stuck at sea and Abascal wanted them to drown.
Those red lines would not need to be crossed if there were mechanisms and, more importantly, political will to find a solution that contents most people (not everyone because that's impossible). But it seems the Spanish government is unwilling to give any concessions, let's remember that we would not be here if the Statute of Autonomy of 2006 hadn't been shutdown.
If you don't provide democratic alternatives and shut yourself with "if you want it change the constitution", knowing full well that it was purposefully made borderline impossible to achieve, then the natural consequences are what we are living today.
If 40-45% of people of a region don't want to be part of a country , it's because coexistence is failing and it is up to the representatives of both sides to find solutions. But the Spanish government simply ignored the issue or blamed other politicians (for electoral causes)
Call it what you like, racism, xenophobia or whatever. But he was calling Spaniards beasts, vultures, vipers and hyenas.
I support the sentence for the politicians (as I understand they'll be given the third grade rather quickly), I do not support it for the Jordis.
Where does that leave me? I'd like to know.
Read my last edit. I dont thing Torra is a racist. Comparing him, in that part, with spanish nationalists is stupid. Nationalists root ideals are similar, but not the same concept, becuase they are not the same type of parties. Both can be shitstains for completely different motives.
Im not defending Torra, im just saying its not racist as we know the word. Its just nationalist trash and he is also a fucking idiot, becuase like it or not, he is a spaniard.
Its more of a classicist movement than a real roots are different movement, as much as they want to parrot they are different from us so that why the want independence.
They had so much "andalusian immigrants" in the past there are no roots whatesover there.
He wasnt. Read the article, he was calling beasts to people wanting to ban Catalan. And yeah, Torra represents the worst side of Catalan independentism but comparing them to Spanish nationalists makes no sense.
The independence movement have destroyed the catalan society in two parts for nothing, they got what they deserve
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Fixed. (well, almost, spanish politicians have gotten out free).
I find ridiculous the unability of some people to understand that a judicial sentence cant be influenced by political considerations.
This sentence is not enacted by the Spanish Government, its enacted by the Spanish Supreme Court.
Far from trying to defend a moron like Torra that's just not true. He was insulting the people who hate anything Catalan related for no reason, and I agree with him. Also "bèsties" has a different connotation in Catalan than in Spanish (it refers to animals, not monsters like our friends from C's were preaching), I mention it because it was a huge deal back in the day and that kind of stuff pisses me off lol
As a Portuguese I can't help but feel a soft spot for another group wanting out of the Spain project. I'd be kinda cool to see them go at it alone.
That said, the consequences of this ( Catalunya's Independence) would be felt across the Peninsula itself and at a time when the far right is actually gaining strenght here I think this would give them the perfect opportunity to seize even more power.
And, of course, whatever the solution ends up being it needs to be something that comes from Spain and it's many groups of people, including Catalunya. We don't really have any right to dictate what should or should not happen in their own territory.
Hope this doesn't cause too much turmoil, the "fight" for Independence already cause plenty of violence between the people and the police...
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As for the prison sentences, I'm hearing a lot of "broken/violated rights" from news commentators though I'm not sure if they're confusing Human Rights (in which they might have a bit of a point) with the Legal system present in Spain (in which I'm not sure they have any sort of point). Regardless, I don't think anyone expected any other result from this trial tbh..
That said, the consequences of this ( Catalunya's Independence) would be felt across the Peninsula itself and at a time when the far right is actually gaining strenght here I think this would give them the perfect opportunity to seize even more power.
And, of course, whatever the solution ends up being it needs to be something that comes from Spain and it's many groups of people, including Catalunya. We don't really have any right to dictate what should or should not happen in their own territory.
Hope this doesn't cause too much turmoil, the "fight" for Independence already cause plenty of violence between the people and the police...
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As for the prison sentences, I'm hearing a lot of "broken/violated rights" from news commentators though I'm not sure if they're confusing Human Rights (in which they might have a bit of a point) with the Legal system present in Spain (in which I'm not sure they have any sort of point). Regardless, I don't think anyone expected any other result from this trial tbh..
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I stand corrected about that.
But his own tweets before he was President are undeniable. Stuff like "shame is a word that Spaniards deleted from their vocabulary long ago".
This political mess is what happens when politicians only look for their own party interests, both sides are to blame for the actual situation. This issue should have never ended up on the justice system to begin with.
Also, this is not about independence or the right for self-determination, the independist movement has been fooled by the catalan parties, they just wanted a smoke screen to cover the corruption cases, gain votes and get more financial power.
Now all political parties will use this sentence as a weapon for the next elections, tensions will rise and the most important issues will be ignored again...
Also, this is not about independence or the right for self-determination, the independist movement has been fooled by the catalan parties, they just wanted a smoke screen to cover the corruption cases, gain votes and get more financial power.
Now all political parties will use this sentence as a weapon for the next elections, tensions will rise and the most important issues will be ignored again...