Legacy of Darkness hate had more to do with it being basically an expansion, yet getting sold as a full price game. It's what the first game should have been. I loved it at the time personally.
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Castlevania 64 • What Happened? [Matt McMuscles]
- Thread starter Fat4all
- Start date
I'm legally obligated to come in any thread about c64 to say what an amazing game it is (the carrying nitroglycerin section not withstanding) and almost no game since has tapped into the unique vibe/aesthetic it gave off for me since.
i got it when it came out and lived my whole life loving it, finding out that a huge group of people vocally hated it was a shocking revelation for me when I discovered it was a thing on the internet.
i got it when it came out and lived my whole life loving it, finding out that a huge group of people vocally hated it was a shocking revelation for me when I discovered it was a thing on the internet.
The N64 titles are easily the closest the 3D Castlevania games have gotten to the 2D titles, and here's an old post on why;
its one of those games that sold much better over time, but initial says being under a mil is kinda surprising considering how well praised it was by both fans and critics at the time
That game just made such an instant impression on me. I'll never forget my sister's then boyfriend bringing SOTN over. I have probably never been more blown away by a video game. The way it looked, and moved, and sounded. Just perfection. I remember 12 year old me just dashing around being amazed by the shutter effect (or whatever you'd call it) on Alucard and his cape.
I had... different feelings the first time I played Castlevania 64.
What happened? What happened is that a developer made a great game that was one of the better games in its genre that generation. Then, a year later, they made an enhanced version that is one of the generation's best games in that genre that generation. And then the internet decided that the games were actually bad and started a decades-long campaign to unfairly malign the games and falsely claim that they are far worse than they actually are. It's quite annoying. Legacy of Darkness is a legitimate A-grade classic and it should be remembered as such! Just remember that these are adventure games at heart. You need to explore, find items, figure out where to go, and solve puzzles. KCEK took a different take on the franchise and it worked out extremely well.
In terms of genre, adventure is the core, but really the two N64 Castlevania games have elements of three genrse present. I would call them very good 3d platforming action-adventure games. Those three elements are all important parts of the games. I've always thought that of the three the platforming and adventure elements are better than the somewhat generic action, but that's fine; the platforming's quite good for this kind of game, with good controls that stick to platform edges well when jumping, and the adventure elements are interesting and easily are the best ever in the franchise. This game is a creepy adventure in ways the Castlevania franchise has only ever really tried on the N64. The combat is fun too, particularly with Cornell in Legacy of Darkness or with the ranged characters otherwise. The bosses are pretty cool for sure. The game has some weird quirks, such as how it has those infamous skeletons on motorcycles in a game set before the invention of the internal combustion engine, but Castlevania has never cared one bit about historical accuracy so for this franchise that's just par for the course. It's silly and is fine.
It is tragic that after these two fantastic, spooky outings, Igarashi got his hands on 3d Castlevania and horribly messed it up with the disastrously horrible, boring, "walk from empty square room to empty square room and mash attack" PS2/Xbox Castlevania games. Don't play those. The Lords of Shadow games are better than that, but those God of War knockoffs aren't the kind of game I want to play either. Stick to the N64 Castlevania games, still by far the best Castlevania outings in 3d. Whatever its genre it's one of the better ones in it; call LoD a 3d platformer (though it isn't) and it'd make my top 15, for instance.
In terms of genre, adventure is the core, but really the two N64 Castlevania games have elements of three genrse present. I would call them very good 3d platforming action-adventure games. Those three elements are all important parts of the games. I've always thought that of the three the platforming and adventure elements are better than the somewhat generic action, but that's fine; the platforming's quite good for this kind of game, with good controls that stick to platform edges well when jumping, and the adventure elements are interesting and easily are the best ever in the franchise. This game is a creepy adventure in ways the Castlevania franchise has only ever really tried on the N64. The combat is fun too, particularly with Cornell in Legacy of Darkness or with the ranged characters otherwise. The bosses are pretty cool for sure. The game has some weird quirks, such as how it has those infamous skeletons on motorcycles in a game set before the invention of the internal combustion engine, but Castlevania has never cared one bit about historical accuracy so for this franchise that's just par for the course. It's silly and is fine.
It is tragic that after these two fantastic, spooky outings, Igarashi got his hands on 3d Castlevania and horribly messed it up with the disastrously horrible, boring, "walk from empty square room to empty square room and mash attack" PS2/Xbox Castlevania games. Don't play those. The Lords of Shadow games are better than that, but those God of War knockoffs aren't the kind of game I want to play either. Stick to the N64 Castlevania games, still by far the best Castlevania outings in 3d. Whatever its genre it's one of the better ones in it; call LoD a 3d platformer (though it isn't) and it'd make my top 15, for instance.
Although the video definitely paints the games in a negative light, I do think it's pretty fair. It almost came across as apologetic to me, which I think is appropriate. The games were not huge successes and that style of game was totally abandoned for the Castlevania series as none of the subsequent 3D games are anything like it. Personally, I love them and think they deserve a lot more enthusiasm than they typically get. If we ever get a new 3D Castlevania game, I'd much prefer they try to make it a true action platformer again now that the concept of a controllable camera has been around for a couple decades.
Plus, the music is just so darn good.
Plus, the music is just so darn good.
*Points at avatar*
20 years later, this is still my favorite 3Dvania. I remember having almost 14.000 pta saved and used all of them in getting the game at launch after playing it early as a rental in my usual videoclub
Not other 3Dvania has managed to get close to its moody atmosphere, it mixes its influences perfectly and it has the perfect blend of weird, creepy and fun in its enemy roster.
It just has too many memorable moments, for how cumbersome the Nitro puzzle is, it gives us the first encounter agaisnt the giant skeleton, the villa, the vampire fights, the tower of execution and tower of magic, and it has some of the best designs of the series.
It's a very underrated game, and Legacy of Darkness makes it actually better, with upgradeable subweapons (We haven't seen this again!) the light blue tint the whole game gets and the revamped late stages.
The smear campaign this game(s) has suffered for some reason will always confuse and baffle me
20 years later, this is still my favorite 3Dvania. I remember having almost 14.000 pta saved and used all of them in getting the game at launch after playing it early as a rental in my usual videoclub
Not other 3Dvania has managed to get close to its moody atmosphere, it mixes its influences perfectly and it has the perfect blend of weird, creepy and fun in its enemy roster.
It just has too many memorable moments, for how cumbersome the Nitro puzzle is, it gives us the first encounter agaisnt the giant skeleton, the villa, the vampire fights, the tower of execution and tower of magic, and it has some of the best designs of the series.
It's a very underrated game, and Legacy of Darkness makes it actually better, with upgradeable subweapons (We haven't seen this again!) the light blue tint the whole game gets and the revamped late stages.
The smear campaign this game(s) has suffered for some reason will always confuse and baffle me
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This.
Yep, definitely. It's a 3D adventure across a varied countryside with varied atmosphere and gameplay and an interesting story.
The PS2 games are flat boring dungeon crawlers. The first has basically no story except 'I have to whip my girlfriend to death and also this random guy is Dracula even though it barely means anything'. And the second i a trashy tack on to Castlevania III with duelling pokemon masters.
You know, i just realized this and how it takes obvious inspiration from Rondo of Blood. That flew over my head.
The camera is frustrating as hell but the atmosphere of the game is great, and it is the most "classic" feeling in terms of direction of the 3D castlevania games. It's a shame that it isn't appreciated much because a modern "reimagining" update of it would be really interesting.
I actually really like this game. I think it's better than most people say. Never really understood the hate. I actually like how it looks, especially the atmosphere (one of the best atmosphere in Castlevania actually) even the introduction level. And I agree that the OST is just fantastic. That title screen music? *chefskiss* Sure the game has lots of problems (the camera, the controls sometimes) but it still has that classic Castlevania feeling. I actually never played Legacy of Darkness. I should change that.
That being said: Matt did a fantastic job to explain what went wrong in development (his What happun? series is really good in general).
That being said: Matt did a fantastic job to explain what went wrong in development (his What happun? series is really good in general).
It's the perfect intro, and it's the only thing that feels like it's really missing from Legacy of Darkness (Well, that and voice acting. Voice acted dracula will never not be scary)
This video has many factual errors undermining many of the points made.
The Nocturne team wasn't 'headed up' by Koji Igarashi, but by Toru Hagihara, who was director AND producer and is clearly credited as such. Igarashi just finished up the game when Hagihara was promoted.
It didn't just 'fail to sell a million copies', it was far lower than that based on the sales data we do have from the era, though we don't have anything like complete data. Later he says Circle of the Moon was the first Castlevania to sell a million, but it's almost certain the original Famicom/NES game did too (or a lot more - it had so many reprints), and possibly others (NES and SNES in particular) but we simply do not have the figures so it's all speculation. He does get it right that COTM outsold every Igarashi game.
He says the game was shown at the Tokyo Game Show 97 as 'Castlevania 64 - despite the series being known as Akumajou Dracula in Japan' (speculating that it was to catch 'western media attention'), was later changed to Dracula 3D. But this is just false, Castlevania 64/Dracula 64 is just what western media dubbed it, it was called 'Dracula 3D' from the start, at that show and through 1998. He makes a false point about them 'mislabelling it' in Japan based just on just reading Wikipedia, when two seconds of research would show this is false. Bizarrely he then shows pages of the July 1997 Nintendo Power calling it Dracula 3D reporting on that exact showing? Surely you'd not show sources that prove you are wrong on the screen?
Ironically Igarashi later tried to rebrand the series as Castlevania in Japan for real, which failed.
He shows how CV64 reviewed well, then says Legacy of Darkness got worse scores because CV64's 'bad rap rubbed off on it' - huh? The real reason is obviously that it was just a full price expansion pack with not much new and the reviews themselves state this explicitly. But who needs research when you can just repeat gamefaqs opinions.
The rest of it is just tired retread of known history with some meaningless conjecture. He gets hung up on reports like '10% completed' and 'this was the time they decided to cut things'.
The Nocturne team wasn't 'headed up' by Koji Igarashi, but by Toru Hagihara, who was director AND producer and is clearly credited as such. Igarashi just finished up the game when Hagihara was promoted.
It didn't just 'fail to sell a million copies', it was far lower than that based on the sales data we do have from the era, though we don't have anything like complete data. Later he says Circle of the Moon was the first Castlevania to sell a million, but it's almost certain the original Famicom/NES game did too (or a lot more - it had so many reprints), and possibly others (NES and SNES in particular) but we simply do not have the figures so it's all speculation. He does get it right that COTM outsold every Igarashi game.
He says the game was shown at the Tokyo Game Show 97 as 'Castlevania 64 - despite the series being known as Akumajou Dracula in Japan' (speculating that it was to catch 'western media attention'), was later changed to Dracula 3D. But this is just false, Castlevania 64/Dracula 64 is just what western media dubbed it, it was called 'Dracula 3D' from the start, at that show and through 1998. He makes a false point about them 'mislabelling it' in Japan based just on just reading Wikipedia, when two seconds of research would show this is false. Bizarrely he then shows pages of the July 1997 Nintendo Power calling it Dracula 3D reporting on that exact showing? Surely you'd not show sources that prove you are wrong on the screen?
Ironically Igarashi later tried to rebrand the series as Castlevania in Japan for real, which failed.
He shows how CV64 reviewed well, then says Legacy of Darkness got worse scores because CV64's 'bad rap rubbed off on it' - huh? The real reason is obviously that it was just a full price expansion pack with not much new and the reviews themselves state this explicitly. But who needs research when you can just repeat gamefaqs opinions.
The rest of it is just tired retread of known history with some meaningless conjecture. He gets hung up on reports like '10% completed' and 'this was the time they decided to cut things'.
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I watched it and he seemed really down on the game. I spent some time looking up the differences between it and Legacy of Darkness. LoD has the same basic level progression as 64 although there are minor remixes to the level design + a new level at the beginning + new areas for Cornell, who also visits a couple of Reinhardt and Carrie's levels. Reinhardt and Carrie retain their unique levels in LoD but they inherit the remixed design. Also, LoD drops the voice acting from 64 and adds some powerups. In other words, it's an expansion pack and Director's Cut in one - but the Ridley Scott kind of Director's Cut.
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I remember renting it as a kid and loving it until around halfway through the game, where you can't continue unless you restart on a higher difficulty level. Really annoyed me back then, so I stopped playing.
Symphony of the night lacked the oomph that you could easily show in a commercial that most of the other games that are considered the best of the generation had
Compare the commercials for Metal Gear Solid, Ocarina of Time and Final Fantasy VII
Now compare it the commercial for Symphony of the night, thats about 3 seconds of footage from the game, so you are basically going entirely through word of mouth
The level remixes are more than minor. While it is true that some stages have been only retouched, Tower of Duel and Tower of Execution are completely new stages. Tower of Execution in particular is spectacular in the level design departamente
To be exact, more than adding some powerups, LoD adds the possibility of powering up your subweapon up to level 3 by picking up the same subweapon, making them more fancy, powerful and adding some extra effects.
Sounds about what i feared the video would be. Every Castlevania 64 video or article is basically the same.
I have to give it to Matt about Castlevania 64's bad rap. When Legacy of Darkness released, Castlevania 64 already had sort of a bad reputation due to Castlevania Dungeon's unenthusiastic review of the game, i remember debating that review on the CD forums and realizing it was hopeless, most people (and a good portion of the Castlevania fandom) were already seeing CV64 as a bad game, and they would parrot the Dungeon review time and time again, not long after, other sites followed suit.
So yeah, when LoD released, CV64 had a bad rap. People blame AVG for CV64's current reputation, but it all started in the Castlevania Dungeon.
But he literally says the review scores were lower 'because of the bad rap'. As if all paid reviewers at professional publications were reading the Castlevania Dungeon they found on an Altavista webring?
When you read the actual reviews themselves, any publications that gave it a lower score did so explicitly because it was just a minor upgrade. A common summary opinion is 'Worth getting for hardcore Castlevania fans or get this version if you skipped the original, but not worth the upgrade for most'.
Like imagine the logic of a publication giving CV64 90%, then giving LOD 70% 'because the original game has a bad rap we now have to give the upgraded version a lower score'.
Me too. However, I could do without the mechanic where the game would end early on easy mode.
I haven't watched the video, so maybe i slipped, but it wouldn't be strange for professional reviewers to let themselves be influenced by word of mouth.
I don't have the magazine with me anymore, but i remember Magazine 64's review being kind of like this if you read between lines. It didn't focus exactly on LoD being a remaster, just on it being Castlevania 64 again, and since Castlevania 64 was "bad" (I dunno why, they gave it a 84%, wich in their scale was almost a must have) Legacy of Darkness was bad too, and the score was around 60%
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I have an excellent memory of this game; but at th time, I remember some considering it like another Superman 64. I'm glad to see that I'm far from being the only one.
I also really like how fitting the title screen is with Malus playing the violine. It's perfect! Ths reminds me: I remember watching that old CG announcement video back when they called it "Dracula 3D" on a VHS tape that came bundled with a N64 magazine here. I think I watched it countless times. This one:
I thought it looked so cool and it made me anticipate the game.
I didn't know that Legacy of Darkness dropped the voice acting. That's a bit of a shame but I guess the budget was perhaps a bit lower so they had to cut some corners.
Haha yes i remember, i watched that video so many times too. It was so hype
Still revisit it every now and then. Konami Kobe was really ambitious.
Yes, LoD lacked voice acting, seems like on CV64 it was something only on the western versions of the game? Still a bummer, Dracula was way less imposing without his cutscene and pre-fight monologue.
I really wish we could get a remaster or remake that added all the cut ideas. Things like the explorable open map (Henry mode on LoD is a remnant of this) the particularities of the day/nigh cycle including the using sunrays as a hazard for vampires, Cornell's martial arts moveset... The game was going to be huge.
That's a shame. This is a particular bugbear I've got with a lot of Youtubers actually. There's a tendency to simply repeat commonly held views without fact checking, stuff written on places like Wikipedia, or to do pieces about Japanese game development without actually having Japanese sources to reference from. In the case of high profile (within their niche) Youtubers, this leads to "facts" being signal boosted that are either untrue or not telling the complete story.
I remember the game being pretty decent when it came out, and I enjoyed it for what it was back then. I think the negativity is greatly exaggerated. I look back fondly on Frankenstein chasing me with a chainsaw in the garden
The rerelease I remember just not being different enough to warrant a new purchase or playthrough. It was questionable for that reason
The rerelease I remember just not being different enough to warrant a new purchase or playthrough. It was questionable for that reason
Wikipedia will then use them as the source (or others will use them as a source which then get cited on Wiki) and the cycle of false facts continues. See also the Dreamcast having sold millions more than Sega manufactured.
It didn't. It sold about half a million copies in the US alone. This guy's metric of the game being a bomb just because it didn't sell a million units is idiotic.
Man, i wish. Liking Castlevania 64 during the early '00s was super rough. Being part of the fandom around that time while not denying anything and everything not developed by the Iga team was an uphill battle.
The castlevania fandom became quite toxic during that time.
Oh o.o
And not being particularly good at it, too
I'm slowly replaying SotN on PS4, and while the game is rough around the edges in some aspects, i feel like no posterior game has been able to catch its thunder. Dawn of Sorrow gets awfully close and i actually prefer it to SotN, but the original game is something else.
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Based on the few Matt McMuscles videos I've seen, they're chock-full of misinformation.
I'm also deeply irked every time anyone alleges Igarashi is the creative mastermind behind SotN. IGA has essentially been aping somebody else's work for the last 23 years.
First Castlevania i played, i was 11. Was at my friends house and his cousin brought the game. I stopped playing when i saw skeletons on motorcycles. Wich if i remember was in the first minuites or so. Looked so stupid.
I remember getting this when I came out and thinking it was a foggy unplayable mess, but then an hour later something click and I was hooked. Beat it with both characters and loved it. Really felt ripped off when the "complete" version came out shortly after though and never bothered getting it. I should probably give it a play through soon.
I didn't play Castlevania 64 but I did play Legacy of Darkness and I loved it. It definitely had some issues with the controls for sure and the camera was frustrating at times, but it is still one of my favorite games in the series.
It was the first Castlevania I played as a kid so I'm pretty biased, but I absolutely love it. Played it on my cousin's PAL 64 one weekend, then immediately pestered mum to track down an NTSC copy... The camera and controls definitely haven't aged well, but the atmosphere and soundtrack are perfect. Carrie Fernandez's campaign is a great time. Never understood the hate at all.
C64 was a perfect rental. A middling game for the time. Cant imagine playing it now.
I think a lot of the hate to CV64 stems from the fact a better version of it came out just a few months later. People had every right to be mad paying so much for a game and it becoming obsolete within the same calendar year. Chalk the problem right back to Konami being Konami.
It has the best atmosphere of any 3D game in the series. I feel this game gets shit on more than Sonic and Mega Man's 3D attempts and those botched the landing a lot more than CV64 ever did.
It has the best atmosphere of any 3D game in the series. I feel this game gets shit on more than Sonic and Mega Man's 3D attempts and those botched the landing a lot more than CV64 ever did.
When I was 16 I blew off my girlfriend at the time because I rented this game and was too busy playing it. In my defense though, it was only a two night rental.
Would it be possible for a fan to mod them back in so that you get the ultimate package?
That's a name I haven't heard in a long time... Will watch the video later.
I was fascinated by this game when I was a kid and to make do with whatever I had access to. Beat it multiple times. I remember it being hard and fun back then, although I'm sure it plays like ass by current standards. The weird and mysterious atmosphere was top notch, and it was accentuated by a great OST.
I was fascinated by this game when I was a kid and to make do with whatever I had access to. Beat it multiple times. I remember it being hard and fun back then, although I'm sure it plays like ass by current standards. The weird and mysterious atmosphere was top notch, and it was accentuated by a great OST.