• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Amibguous Cad

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,033
Using cards as a metaphor can deliver many different kinds of play experiences, most of which have more in common with whatever original genre they're mimicking than other card games. A few examples:

The Collectible Card Game:
hearthstone_witchwood_echo.jpg


These games are typically heavily influenced by Magic: The Gathering and other cardboard imitators, with an emphasis on one-on-one multiplayer, draft formats, and discrete deckbuilding that ends before the match begins. This is probably the most central example that people think of when they think of a "card game," and it's the closest to being its own unique genre, but even so it's more of a subgenre within competitive turn-based strategy and tactics games. It has more in common with, say, Advance Wars, than it does with Slay the Spire. Speaking of...

The Dominion Clone:
B2bl7bD.jpg


These games are typically heavily inspired by the board game classic "dominion," involving roguelike elements, build-on-the-fly deckbuilding, and a mechanic where a certain pool of moves or cards gets exhausted and then reshuffled in the middle of battle. Again, it's more accurate to call this a turn-based strategy roguelike instead of a card game, per se, and it has at least as much in common with Dead Cells as it does with Magic.

The JRPG:
81cc58d0bd0b32d14b77118dad762d03bf3ca4b9bbcd0bf71c241c6c62b37a89_product_card_v2_mobile_slider_639.jpg


This kind of game really only uses cards as a metaphor for randomness within a traditional RPG structure. The attacks you'd normally select from a menu are instead represented by illustrated cards, but the card metaphor isn't operative on a gameplay level; it's just window-dressing.

But then again, that's true of basically every anything. I could retrofit almost any game that currently exists into being a card game with enough effort, particularly turn-based strategy games. Metal Gear Solid 5? All those soldiers you fultoned are cards! God of War? Your skill tree is cards! Death stranding? Each piece of cargo is a card!

Not only are card games not a genre, then, they're not even a gameplay mechanic. They're a skin you can layer on top of an existing design. They're a cosmetic coat of paint used to influence players' expectations and act as a short-hand for several other, more integral mechanics.
 
Mar 19, 2019
482
I'm not sure it's fair to say that the card aspect of SteamWorld Quest's gameplay is only "window-dressing". The deckbuilding makes it work totally different than your stock JRPG -- it isn't like in the normal JRPG the actions you're allowed to take are randomly dolled out to you; the randomness is not even the same kind of randomness, not dealing in the same thing. In a card game your options are random, in a JRPG the outcomes of actions is random. It's more similar to a roll of dice than a drawing of a card.

It sounds to me like you're trying to have a hot take, but you're also saying the same thing multiple times and none of them are contrary to the popular definition of a card game. Card games are games where your options are randomized by a deck of cards. RNG being used to determine what your options are, rather than the outcomes of those actions, is the core of card games, and it's what distinguishes them as a genre. Not just the aesthetic.
 

pikachief

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,566
I mean theyre all games where your gameplay is dictated on the random draw of your predetermined or assembled deck of cards. I feel like what you're fighting against is what changes, not the strategy and gameplay of choosing from a hand of cards.
 

Noaloha

Member
Oct 27, 2017
314
There're major mechanical, functional differences between percentile randomness, deck randomness and multiple dice randomness.
 
Mar 19, 2019
482
Seems like you are suggesting that "Has cards as icons" is the same as a "Card game"?
It honestly sounds more like OP's entire argument is based on the prediciation that genres have to be super narrow classifications of media that, at their core, can be distilled to a point where they're functionally the same thing. This is frankly unfair to media on the whole, and demonstrates a lack of understanding of the games he's talking about or the genre they belong to, or a strong desperation to have a unique take.
 

ScatheZombie

Member
Oct 26, 2017
399
Card Game is absolutely a genre.

Simply having cards exist in the game does not make it a 'card game'. This has been clarified and discussed to death in the board gaming world - where games that have boards/dice, but the primary mechanic of the game involves player's cards is, by definition, a card game and a game with cards, but the primary mechanic of the game revolves around a board state/dice rolling/etc. separate from the cards is, by definition, a board game (or some other genre within board gaming).

You can apply the same logic to video games that have cards. Hearthstone is clearly a card game, as the primary mechanic in the game is deckbuilding and card playing. Other games that simply use cards as a visual display for randomness or ability buttons in an otherwise standard strategy game are not card games.

Card games is a rather large genre of games, however. There's sub-genres within card games like TCGs, LCGs, Deckbuilders, Card Crafting, etc, that have more specific definitions on how the cards are used. For example:

TCGs: Magic, Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon
LCGs: Legend of the Five Rings, Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones
Deckbuilders: Ascension, Thunderstone
Card Crafting: Mystic Vale

The fact that your examples are exclusively from video games is weird because most video games using cards aren't card games. And card games are predominantly a board game/physical game thing. Most video game card games are just copying existing physical card games.
 

Sean Mirrsen

Banned
May 9, 2018
1,159
Thea: The Awakening has "card game" combat. Characters and enemies stack together into a card stack, and you choose which ones to play before the entire stack resolves. It's very distinct from conventional "card games", and the method of resolution is similar enough to a card game where decoupling it from "cards" as an interaction method will only increase complexity.

There's an argument in that any "card game" can be reduced to a simpler UI and presentation, and cards themselves are functionally pointless except as an interaction shorthand. But then that makes them a game mechanic and minor supergenre - a set of interaction principles and tropes common to "card games" that can be applied on top of any other genre or type of game.
 
Mar 19, 2019
482
Other games that simply use cards as a visual display for randomness or ability buttons in an otherwise standard strategy game are not card games.
The problem is again that the cards are not being used to represent randomness as they frequently appear in turn-based games. It limits your options by randomness, not the outcome of actions. No game uses cards to represent RNG as it appears in other types of turn-based games, because the cards inherently do not function like that.
 

Rover

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,439
When something has cards but is not "a card game" - it's typically called "card-driven", which is to say there's a game state happening outside of the cards, but cards push and pull at it.

I think what OP might be getting at is that a lot of people write off "card games" because they likely think of a specific TCG style thing, and not the broader variety of games that could involve cards.

For example, there was recently a thread made about Slay the Spire, and a lot of people in there say they are put off by "card games" but were very surprised by how much that game defied what they expected.
 

Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,867
Brazil
It can be both. A Jrpg that uses cards will probably be on the jrpg tag but a competitive deck builder card game like Hearthstone, Gwent or Magic Arena are considered Card Games as a genre and that's that.

Also, genres are defined for a lot of arbritary stuff, for starters. Third Person Shooters and First Person Shooters are defined as different genres but it's only the camera perspective. Sometimes genres are only defined as some game that looks like the other, popular stuff i.e Zelda-like, Diablo-like.

There's nothing really set on stone about videogame genres. They're just buzz names meant to help people understand slightly what the game is about before playing.
 

Keym

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
9,229
If you think about it, every game is Pong with a few coats of paint on top.
 

gnexus

Member
Mar 30, 2018
2,292
OP is just trying to get a revolution going for card games. A c.a.r.d. revolution, if you will.


220px-Phantasy_Star_Online_III_CARD_Revolution.jpg
 

Goldenroad

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
9,475
I don't view StS as being anything like Dominion. Dominion is not about battling. Ita about collecting resources and earning VPs. I'm sure there are card games like StS, but I dont get the Dominion comparison at all.
 
OP
OP
Amibguous Cad

Amibguous Cad

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,033
This is informative. However I don't see the point you are trying to make.

I see it a lot in threads about games like Slay the Spire or Steamworld Dig. "I never thought I'd like a card game, but somehow this one really spoke to me." And it's like, of course Slay the Spire might appeal to you even though you downloaded Magic the Gathering Arena that one time and didn't like it, Slay the Spire has way more in common with FTL than it does with MTG.

But everyone seems to have the CCG as their paradigmatic card game and assumes that if they don't like it, they're not going to like anything else that uses the card metaphor. This leads people to ignore games that they would otherwise play and enjoy without this analytic framework.

I don't view StS as being anything like Dominion. Dominion is not about battling. Ita about collecting resources and earning VPs. I'm sure there are card games like StS, but I dont get the Dominion comparison at all.

I mean in the sense that they're both deckbuilders - start with a mediocre deck, improve it by addition and subtraction, draw five each turn, discard at end of turn, reshuffle your discard pile when your deck is depleted. Like how Destiny and Half-Life are both shooters, even if they use that fundamental way of interacting with the world in different ways.
 
Mar 29, 2018
7,078
Agreed.

Cards are a representation of game objects.

You could replace them with actual 3D or 2d art assets, like objects or characters with stats. Or some other UI element.

Cards are just a really damn efficient way to represent game objects with multiple stats and abilities. Using cards allows you to feature hundreds and hundreds of these for very cheap.