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CrazyNomad

Banned
Jan 22, 2020
226

MrBenchmark

Member
Dec 8, 2017
2,034

TitanicFall

Member
Nov 12, 2017
8,273
As someone who preordered a Series S I'm a little worried here. I expected games down the line to have this stuff happen...but not a "remaster" of a 2019 game.

Might just be some challenges for this game's specific engine that could improve down the road, but yeah it never felt realistic that resolution would be the only difference between the S and the X.
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28,995
seems more like a development/cost issue rather than a power issue. seems like xss should be able to handle a 1080p RT mode at 30 fps.... right?
Here's the thing...

Do we want them putting so much extra attention into the Series S and in the end that effecting the other consoles?

Or focus more on the Series X, PS5, and whatever the Series S doesn't get, so be it?

I have a feeling it's gonna be one or the other for some games. If so, let them focus on the Series X, PS5 more. For example:

Hopefully it will always be an option . Like a 60 fps mode or 30fps with RT . I'm hoping devs dont skip on a 60fps in favor of rt .

This could be an example of the choices that have to be made.
I dont care about RT,

But why didnt MS just remove the disk drive and keep the S and X the same hardware?

Its not like they cant afford it...
You think that would have been enough to get a 299 Series S?

At this point it should be very clear Sony and MS have different goals.

While the Series S news is likely disappointing to some, this is hardly unexpected. The performance hit on Series X and PS5 indicated that this is likely pretty intensive so that wasn't going to be possible without a lot of heavy optimization work and a big compromise in resolution.

The real news here is that the RT feature isn't going to be in at launch. Really seems like RT support isn't ready to go for all that many titles at the launch of these consoles. I'm assuming this delay goes for the PS5 version too?
I swore when we saw it running on PS5, the Japanese hands on, DF said it had ray tracing.
 

Polyh3dron

Prophet of Regret
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,860
So now the question will be if certain raytracing effects can only work on the Series X, does it make sense for devs to spend time implementing them for only a portion of the user base while putting the Series S version outside of parity?
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,657
Gotta wonder what will be Series S resolution for 120fps mode. Hadn't thought about that.

I imagine as far as this generation goes no third party developer is going to make a multiplatform video game that only functions with ray tracing.
 

JigglesBunny

Prophet of Truth
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
31,124
Chicago
As someone who preordered a Series S I'm a little worried here. I expected games down the line to have this stuff happen...but not a "remaster" of a 2019 game.
For one, we know the Series S is between the One X and the Series X in regards to raw power. Considering the Series X could only get this running at 1080p, 60 FPS with RT enabled, the Series S probably would have managed 1080p, 30 FPS with RT or possibly even worse. That's likely not an experience most people would have wanted, especially not for a game like Devil May Cry V.

Two, implying a "remaster of a 2019 game" is less computationally intensive than most of the titles launching with these consoles is fairly weird. RE Engine is an absolute stunner and DMC V still looks better than most AAA games releasing this year, all while achieving a stable 60 FPS on console. Adding RT to the equation makes things far more intensive for a game that's already pretty cutting-edge and I don't really see the point in diminishing the technical accomplishments of that game by arbitrarily pointing out its release date as if it's somehow dated.
 

Tappin Brews

#TeamThierry
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,875
Here's the thing...

Do we want them putting so much extra attention into the Series S and in the end that effecting the other consoles?

Or focus more on the Series X, PS5, and whatever the Series S doesn't get, so be it?

I have a feeling it's gonna be one or the other for some games. If so, let them focus on the Series X, PS5 more. For

yeah, that was my point. its understandable, especially if the tools arent quite there on the xbox platforms (as evidenced by a post launch patch on xsx).
 

Judge

Vault-Tec Seal of Approval
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,144
As someone who preordered a Series S I'm a little worried here. I expected games down the line to have this stuff happen...but not a "remaster" of a 2019 game.
If you care about RT you probably shouldn't be buying the weaker console that is designed for 1080p/1440 next gen gaming
 

iksenpets

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,490
Dallas, TX
I don't think it's crazy if inferior or completely absent ray-tracing becomes a thing on on Series S, but that's definitely not what MS sold the console as. They've been selling this as a resolution difference only.
 

Ra

Rap Genius
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
12,207
Dark Space
A GPU of this level was always going to struggling to have RT in every game that supports it, without a DLSS type solution in play.
 

tok9

Prophet of Truth
Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,995
I am a little surprised by this tbh. They talked about how Series S has the hardware capability for ray tracing. The sample size right now is too small but if this ends up being the trend, maybe it wasn't worth it to include in the S
 

Arex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,502
Indonesia
Huh so it's not just the resolution. Weird, the hardware should have scaled down well. I guess the resolution with RT would've had to be lower than 1080p on Series S and that's probably too low.
 

pg2g

Member
Dec 18, 2018
4,806
This is a cross-gen game. What's going to happen when real next-gen games start coming out that push the Series X? The ones that end up being 1440p @ 30fps (for example) like the UE5 demo. Where will that leave the Series S?

This game runs 1080/60/RT on the XSX. It is already pushing the XSX. It being a cross gen game doesn't really mean too much, other than maybe to suggest that it is not well optimized.

Gotta focus on relative performance between the X and S. That said, a 1080/30/RT mode should have been doable.
 
Jun 23, 2019
6,446
If you care about RT you probably shouldn't be buying the weaker console that is designed for 1080p/1440 next gen gaming

This is a weird comment. MS has been marketing and Phil Spencer has been talking as if the differences between Series S and X is going to be minimal and that you only really have to worry about resolution. Now studios are coming out saying that they can basically pick and choose if they want to run RT and other stuff on their games? Had I known that, I would have just looked into getting a Series X myself instead of seriously looking at Series S.
 

WhtR88t

Member
May 14, 2018
4,587
A little confusing because Microsoft has been saying the difference between the X and S is just 1440p vs 4K.
 
Apr 4, 2018
4,513
Vancouver, BC
This may well be a function of time in COVID crunch. If the game supports 4 display modes across PS5/XSX they may have thought "there's no reason to put significant resources into the SKU that's only 15-25% of new Xboxes"

Probably not bad insight here.

I find it hard to believe they can hit 4k30 with RT on a 36 CU 10tflop GPU but can't hit at least 1080p or even 900p on a 4tflop gpu with 20cus.

Unless the reason PS5 and Series X go all the way down to 1080p for RT with 60fps is due to thier RT rendering needing an extreme amount of thier rendering budget.

I'm curious what video modes the game will have On Series S though. 1440p 60fps would still be solid.
 
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OldDirtyGamer

Member
Apr 14, 2019
2,474
This is a weird comment. MS has been marketing and Phil Spencer has been talking as if the differences between Series S and X is going to be minimal and that you only really have to worry about resolution. Now studios are coming out saying that they can basically pick and choose if they want to run RT and other stuff on their games? Had I known that, I would have just looked into getting a Series X myself instead of seriously looking at Series S.
Rt is probably gonna be minimal on consoles period . Like do they even cover what kind of RT is used in this game ?

Its too expensive imo. Dropping from 4k to 1080 isn't worth it for some ray traced reflections for me .
 

Vash63

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,681
I mean this is the same company that doesn't think an RTX 3090 can handle ray tracing so I wouldn't read too much into it.
 

Ambient

Member
Dec 23, 2017
7,085
Yes? of course? MS is not some random upstart, they can afford to to eat the price difference.
MS can't afford to take that big of a hit on hardware that would be crazy. To get to that $299 this is what they had to do and they are still taking somewhat of a loss on the Series S hardware.
 

Deleted member 46804

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 17, 2018
4,129
This may well be a function of time in COVID crunch. If the game supports 4 display modes across PS5/XSX they may have thought "there's no reason to put significant resources into the SKU that's only 15-25% of new Xboxes"
This is a good bet. The fact that it won't even be available at launch on the Series X definitely points to them having to choose how they allocate their resources.
 

zombiejames

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,930
If you care about RT you probably shouldn't be buying the weaker console that is designed for 1080p/1440 next gen gaming

Except that MS is marketing the Series S as a ray tracing machine right on the product page:

HPNJQUW.png
 

Jaypah

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,866
This is a weird comment. MS has been marketing and Phil Spencer has been talking as if the differences between Series S and X is going to be minimal and that you only really have to worry about resolution. Now studios are coming out saying that they can basically pick and choose if they want to run RT and other stuff on their games? Had I known that, I would have just looked into getting a Series X myself instead of seriously looking at Series S.

In the grand scheme of things at least you know before the console is out. I know that's not going to be good enough for you but it's something.
 
Jun 23, 2019
6,446
In the grand scheme of things at least you know before the console is out. I know that's not going to be good enough for you but it's something.

I mean this essentially changes how I approach launch now. I thought I was going to be able to slide in on launch day, possibly cop a Series S and be good, but I'm not paying $350 for this. Now I'll have to find a Series X. First world problems I know, but still.
 

canderous

Prophet of Truth
Member
Jun 12, 2020
8,691
Since the PS5 and XSX has to dip all the way to 1080p to use RT at a playable frame rate, it says a lot about how demanding their RT implementation is. And look, they didn't let the Series S hold them back as everyone fears. They just said no RT for the Series S.

We're talking about a console that's like 10x6x2.5 inches and probably draws maybe 100-ish watts under load (based on the Series X power draw). There just has to be some expectations regarding that. Sure, Watch Dogs will have some RT on the Series S but it's probably gonna be a pretty basic implementation compared to whatever DMC5 is doing. It's gonna vary game to game.

This is a weird comment. MS has been marketing and Phil Spencer has been talking as if the differences between Series S and X is going to be minimal and that you only really have to worry about resolution. Now studios are coming out saying that they can basically pick and choose if they want to run RT and other stuff on their games? Had I known that, I would have just looked into getting a Series X myself instead of seriously looking at Series S.
I think they believe the more casual market, or someone running on either a small screen or a 1080p screen simply won't notice the difference. It runs the new COD, the new 2k, Fortnite, etc. for only $299, and has all these cool game pass games. For a lot of people that's all they want, and they're not analyzing whether the shadows are set to Medium or Ultra details, or whether those are screen space or RT reflections. We already know games can look really nice using settings like that.

I will agree the marketing could have been more specific, but it's a bit hard to convey since every game is going to handle its downscaling to Series S differently. Some will just need to bump down the resolution, some will turn down textures or shadows or ray tracing or geometry detail, or some combination of any of those things.
 
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Lord Error

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,368
seems more like a development/cost issue rather than a power issue. seems like xss should be able to handle a 1080p RT mode at 30 fps.... right?
I don'r know if math with this kind of thing is straightforward as GPU power is for sure allocated unevenly for different features, but you can see that there's a drop of 4x amount of pixels between RT On and Off on the same console and at same framerate. Maybe they'd have to go to 900p/30 with RT on on Series S to accommodate this 4x drop in performance with RT. No idea tbh. You are probably right, as we have at least one example of 1080p/30 RT on Xbox One X and 900p-1080p on PS4 Pro in Crysis remaster. So it for sure can be done on Series S, which is more powerful than that, just maybe not right now with Capcom's current engine.
 

Deleted member 46804

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 17, 2018
4,129
This is a weird comment. MS has been marketing and Phil Spencer has been talking as if the differences between Series S and X is going to be minimal and that you only really have to worry about resolution. Now studios are coming out saying that they can basically pick and choose if they want to run RT and other stuff on their games? Had I known that, I would have just looked into getting a Series X myself instead of seriously looking at Series S.
This has always been true. Look at the support across the regular and upgraded consoles right now. Developers are allowed to do what they want even if a console can support more. Developers will always be short on time and developers and that could mean the Series S getting the short end of the stick.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
12,838
Australia
-1080p with RT off at 120fps

This is honestly extremely unimpressive. The X1X runs the game at checkerboard 4K (so half the pixels of 4K and double the pixels of 1080p) 60fps. The PS5 has twice the GPU power, multiple times the CPU power, better RAM... I don't know any reason why it shouldn't be able to do checkerboard 4K 120fps. Unless the graphics are ridiculously enhanced outside of RT.
 

one

Member
Nov 30, 2017
272
Will the RT of Series S stay token support that will never be actually used?
 

FooF

One Winged Slayer
Member
Mar 24, 2020
686
I guess 1080 30 with RT would work but it looks like capcom don't want dmc 5 running at 30 which I agree with

i'm sure a lot of other games will support 1080 30 with RT on the series s
 
Nov 28, 2017
1,357
They've worked on the HFR mode and LDK for the Series S, so their current implementation of RT via the RE Engine must be taxing for a 4TF RDNA 2.0 graphics core. There's no other explanation for this.

Also, why are some XSX titles having their RT implementations being delayed and not at launch? Anything devkits related?

Is the pc version getting RT, virgil dlc, turbo mode, etc etc etc? Dont think so

It's getting the Vergil DLC sometime later this year. Capcom updated their Steam DB yesterday.

K6795jr.jpg


LDK, Turbo and RT are as of right "officially" not coming. You'll be getting this (or even the entire 5SE standalone release) for sure sometime next year, once the sales of the 5SE SKU have slowed down a bit on console. This won't be another DmC DE situation.

is it? My son wants this and we have every platform so which one should he purchase it for? Is this some special capcom/Sony special deal?

PS5 if you want it day 1 with RT (Nov 10), or XSX if you don't mind waiting a few weeks/months for an RT patch.
 

Deleted member 70824

User requested account closure
Banned
Jun 2, 2020
923
Not a big deal, but definitely something to talk about. Series S does officially support DXR. So in what capacity will it ever get ray-tracing in any game?

I may just have to give my Series S to the kids and get me a Series X XD

Saying that, the people who truly care about ray-tracing would have bought the Series X, which is the premium, all the bells-and-whistles machine.
 

Bugalugs214

Banned
Nov 26, 2017
1,686
Yeah if you want the same features as the Series X, get a series X? There's a reason why there's $200 difference. It shouldn't be that hard to understand.
 

RivalGT

Member
Dec 13, 2017
6,397
No ray tracing on a lastgen game, I wasn't expecting that so fast. But I can see the reasons for it, as devs dont have much experience with the system.
 

Raonak

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,170
kinda surprised that gimped S versions are happening already.
Figured it'd only be resolution differences.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,261
Yeah for the price and spec difference it was never just going to be just resolution, at least it'll spice up the life of Digital Foundry staff this upcoming gen.