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thomasmahler

Game Director at Moon Studios
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,097
Vienna / Austria
I just wanted to post this in that recent Xbox thread, but then thought this discussion deserves its own thread, so here goes:

I'm always a bit baffled by people saying things like "Meh, I don't need an Xbox, I have a gaming PC" and in the same sentence they're making that sound like that's a diss against the Xbox. Yes, if you're a PC Gamer and Microsoft ships their first party games on PC as well, YOU might not NEED an Xbox.

And that's perfectly fine.

A good gaming PC that runs games at better quality than a console will most likely cost you 1.000$ and up - and probably a bit more than that if you're trying to buy a Gaming Rig closer to the consoles release. The biggest selling point for a console is convenience and price. You're buying a box for a couple hundred dollars and if you buy games for it, you KNOW what you're gonna get. You don't have to fiddle with your OS, drivers and with obscure sounding settings, you just download the game, hit play and you're good to go. THAT is what most people out there expect and want from a console. I'd assume that a ton of people out there have no desire to put a big gaming PC tower into their living rooms. They want a sexy little box that guarantees good entertainment. And while gaming on the PC has become much more streamlined over the past decade or so, it still can't compete with a console when it comes to sheer convenience and price. It's not even close.

I mean, let's face it, PC Gamers who buy the latest and greatest hardware are a niche segment. You are representing the absolute high end, gamers who don't care as much about the price of their hardware, who'd be willing to spend 500+ dollars on just a GPU. I just don't see how those market segments compete. It's like saying 'These headphones Apple ships with their phones are completely useless cause there's way better, pricier high end stuff out there!' -> You're missing the point. Of course there's better stuff around and it's great that you can buy that and use it on your device, but for most people, those headphones that ship with the device are all they really want or need.

I'm sure everyone here would LOOOOVE for Sony to do the same thing Microsoft does (Don't tell me you wouldn't want to play games like Bloodborne, God of War, Uncharted, Last of Us, etc. at 4k, 60fps, HDR, etc. on your PC - If the OPTION would be there, a ton of people would be thrilled to play those games that way instead of the upscaled 4k, VRR-hopefully-60fps-but-not-quite, etc. experiences that you get on a console), but I think people would be scared that - if that happens - PC Gaming could kill Console gaming and let's be real here: That's just a bunch of nonsense. In no other segment are people so afraid that the HIGH END would absolutely murder the LOW END than in gaming.

I'd just love for people to accept that PC Gaming represents the HIGH END ALTERNATIVE to consoles instead of PCs representing some evil competition that might kill consoles. It never will. There'll always be a HUUUUGE segment of gamers who just don't want to deal with all the hassles that PC gaming brings with it. There's always going to be a huge amount of people who value convenience way more than performance - and that's fine. Your Prius isn't a useless piece of shit just because Porsche just made a new sports car.

Games should be available everywhere and gamers should have a choice. You want convenience, a good experience and don't want to break the bank? Get a console. You love performance and are willing to spend a bit more? Get a PC.
 
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defaltoption

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
11,484
Austin
Yes thank you, I tried making a thread about this other day and came of a bit ranty, it was a bit of rant I admit, and got roasted lmao. There is a place for both and one being similar to the other is a good thing if it's something we like. Ive never understood the need to put down one option to bring up another.

I own all platforms now and will again come the new gen, each has pros and cons, and each would be better for copying the strengths of the others.
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
17,831
Wasnt PS4 Pro made to stop players moving to PC? That shows PC is quite literally a significant competition.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,305
I'll go even further with the following point: More than high end/low end alternatives, people are also tied to their ecosystem in which they already invested money. You could have a market without litterally 0 exclusives, people would still buy a system based on their brand loyalty and library from previous generations.
 

lazygecko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,628
It sounds like blanket statements are being made here about the console and PC markets respectively that might have felt true 15 years ago, but the lines keep blurring more and more as the years pass. The "convenience" argument for consoles has eroded while proliferation of standards and platforms on PC have made it more accessible. There are contingents of "high end niche" and "casual" demographcis on console and PC alike, which has only gotten more pronounced with concepts like the PS4 Pro. There's also a reason the highest selling games on PC make sure their games are optimized for older specs.
 

EduBRK

Member
Oct 30, 2017
981
Brazil
Yes. PC is niche, and an alternative. The more consoles are like PCs, the more evident it gets that they are not direct competitors.

Put all games on everything and let the consumer decide.
 

defaltoption

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
11,484
Austin
Wasnt PS4 Pro made to stop players moving to PC? That shows PC is quite literally a significant competition.
Did they ever say that or was that just the sentiment online? I cant imagine the pro made any dent toward that specific goal. I personally think it was to capitalize on the 4k tv buzz at the time while being able to make people repurchase a console or buy in at a higher price in the first place.
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
17,831
Did they ever say that or was that just the sentiment online? I cant imagine the pro made any dent toward that specific goal. I personally think it was to capitalize on the 4k tv buzz at the time while being able to make people repurchase a console or buy in at a higher price in the first place.

"I saw some data that really influenced me," he continues. "It suggested that there's a dip mid-console lifecycle where the players who want the very best graphical experience will start to migrate to PC, because that's obviously where it's to be had."

"We wanted to keep those people within our eco-system by giving them the very best and very highest [performance quality]."
Also i dont believe you have numbers to back up that it hasnt made a dent.
 

pswii60

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,667
The Milky Way
Agree with you Thomas. There is some competition between the two, but I'd say it's insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

I'd also say that PC gamers who play everything on their PC except only PlayStation (single player) exclusives which they play on PS4 - they're not exactly feeding the PlayStation ecosystem and therefore they're unlikely to subscribe to PS Plus regardless. So it would be better for Sony to target the players where they already are IMO, rather than selling them a loss leading plastic box.

EDIT: Also thanks to it launching on PC, I'm going to get to experience the new Ori at at blissful 120hz on day one. And Microsoft is still getting my Game Pass money.
Wasnt PS4 Pro made to stop players moving to PC? That shows PC is quite literally a significant competition.
It shows that it was Sony's belief at the time, yes. But now they are more relaxed than ever on PC releases - from Journey to Detroit to Death Stranding to Predator to Godfall. All these games are coming to PC, but they're not coming to Xbox, Switch or Stadia. Which gives you an indication of where they see PC on the competition scale now, following their release of PS4 Pro.
 
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Lant_War

Classic Anus Game
The Fallen
Jul 14, 2018
23,556
When I say "Well thanks Microsoft, now I don't need an Xbox" it's not a diss against the brand :P.
 

AshenOne

Member
Feb 21, 2018
6,089
Pakistan
You definitely don't need a $1000 PC to match or overcome the difference in quality from consoles tbh and i also disagree that PC represents the high end segment to consoles.

PC is always about customization, your choice stuff that you want to put on or want to achieve for your gaming needs. Yes the PC gaming market doesn't threaten the console market because philosophically both stand for different goals and aims. Consoles are all about convenience of use and is a walled garden while PC is all about customization and user choice but has a front loaded price you need to pay in order to reap the fruits down the line.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,915
They're competitors now more than ever. The price difference is steadily dropping and they share more games today than they ever have before. It may not be Xbox or Playstation's primary or direct competitor, but it is a competitor nonetheless. PC is as much a competitor to Xbox/PlayStation as the Switch is.
 

Bjones

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,622
The silly thing is some people think they are somehow harming MS by buying MS games on a Windows PC.
 

defaltoption

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
11,484
Austin

Iztok

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,134
I don't get it, doesn't competition by definition "threaten" others in the same market?
At least as far as market share goes.
I'm sure it's good for the industry as a whole, as competition usually is.

How can we possibly agree that it doesn't, when it at most basic does and can't help being otherwise?

Maybe you just don't know what PC dominated markets are like. In the part of EU I'm from most still play on PC and if that option was taken away, they'd get a console (not all, some would just quit playing). It clearly affects consoles.
 

Jessie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,921
This is a lot of words that can be summarized by "they're competing in different price segments"
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
100% agree, they coincide together, PC gamers and console gamers are content with what each offers, its warriors that try to paint a different narrative in an attempt to undermine the other. I love playing on consoles, i will never play on PC's and i assume many feel the same about PC's.And thats fine.
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,324
To play devil's advocate, the price difference starts to disappear when you compare a good PC to the price of an Xbox + PlayStation. Depending on how much you spend, you can get similar (or better) performance, you get almost every Xbox game (since MS is putting their own 1st party & 2nd party games on the PC) and the vast majority of PS games (since even most Japanese 3rd party games these days are multi-platform) plus a ton of PC-only exclusives, you can get Game Pass (albeit with a different lineup), and a PC can be used for work and other purposes.

As someone who has a good excuse to have a good PC for work, I'm feeling less and less like I have a reason to own any of the game consoles except for the Switch (thanks to portability + Nintendo's strong 1st party lineup) since there are fewer and fewer exclusives on the MS & PS platforms and I'd rather play on my laptop than a TV anyway.
 
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Deleted member 29249

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
3,634
I'd say streaming stuff like Stadia (when it actually works) will be more of a threat to consoles then PC. Consoles are great because of the ease of use. If theses streaming things ever work, those might be easier.
 

Jessie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,921
I mean, I'm not buying the next Xbox because I can play the games on PC. I'm not saying that because I want to kill Microsoft. I'm saying it because exclusives are the biggest reason why I buy a console and I don't need to buy the Xbox Series X to get what I want.

I understand that families and kids have different circumstances. At the end of the day people buy what they can afford.
 
OP
OP
thomasmahler

thomasmahler

Game Director at Moon Studios
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,097
Vienna / Austria
You definitely don't need a $1000 PC to match or overcome the difference in quality from consoles tbh and i also disagree that PC represents the high end segment to consoles.

Yes, you do. Good luck building a PC for under 1000$ that has the same specs as the XSX and that runs games in the same way on PC. Consoles are sold at a loss, PCs aren't. When you develop for consoles, you know exactly what you're targeting, so you can optimize the hell out of that machine, which isn't what's happening for PC games. On PCs, you just deal with a ton of overhead and you're throwing insane amounts of power at it to overcome that. All PC games could run a hell of a lot better on the given hardware if the games would actually be specifically made for that hardware. So even if your PC is on paper better than a console, in practice that often won't result in you having a comparable experience. And again, most people don't wanna deal with that shit.
 

Deleted member 10726

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,674
ResetERA
I agree, while I think in the enthusiast bubble, the competition between PC and console is a real thing, I think for general gamers there isn't much of an overlap of people who play games on PC and people who play on consoles. Xbox sure didn't get hurt in sales by Microsoft releasing their games on PC as well.

And I think the reason why is because while PC couch gaming has made significant strides, outside of the enthusiast bubble consoles are still known to be the easy and accessible couch gaming option.
 

Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
I think this is a typical example of "this won't age well". Who would have thought that Sony games would release on PC back then? I know they released the Pro also as something to make PS gamers not move to PC but I would like to see how successful that actually was.
And there is a difference between being a thread and "not making a dent".
 

Deleted member 31092

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 5, 2017
10,783
I feel like PC, Microsoft/Sony, Nintendo are 3 separate sectors now. The only real "threats" are Microsoft to Sony and Sony to Microsoft.
 

TheUnseenTheUnheard

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
May 25, 2018
9,647
Did they ever say that or was that just the sentiment online? I cant imagine the pro made any dent toward that specific goal. I personally think it was to capitalize on the 4k tv buzz at the time while being able to make people repurchase a console or buy in at a higher price in the first place.
Wow I never heard of such a thing. I never really thought of PC as a threat to consoles. They have their own audiences.
 

FreddeGredde

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,904
I don't think it threatens Nintendo or Sony, but I'd be amazed if the Xbox "exclusives" also being on PC didn't have a big impact on Xbox's sales.
 

Deleted member 46489

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 7, 2018
1,979
I just wanted to post this in that recent Xbox thread, but then thought this discussion deserves its own thread, so here goes:

I'm always a bit baffled by people saying things like "Meh, I don't need an Xbox, I have a gaming PC" and in the same sentence they're making that sound like that's a diss against the Xbox. Yes, if you're a PC Gamer and Microsoft ships their first party games on PC as well, YOU might not NEED an Xbox.

And that's perfectly fine.

A good gaming PC that runs games at better quality than a console will most likely cost you 1.000$ and up - and probably a bit more than that if you're trying to buy a Gaming Rig closer to the consoles release. The biggest selling point for a console is convenience and price. You're buying a box for a couple hundred dollars and if you buy games for it, you KNOW what you're gonna get. You don't have to fiddle with your OS, drivers and with obscure sounding settings, you just download the game, hit play and you're good to go. THAT is what most people out there expect and want from a console. I'd assume that a ton of people out there have no desire to put a big gaming PC tower into their living rooms. They want a sexy little box that guarantees good entertainment. And while gaming on the PC has become much more streamlined over the past decade or so, it still can't compete with a console when it comes to sheer convenience and price. It's not even close.

I mean, let's face it, PC Gamers who buy the latest and greatest hardware are a niche segment. You are representing the absolute high end, gamers who don't care as much about the price of their hardware, who'd be willing to spend 500+ dollars on just a GPU. I just don't see how those market segments compete. It's like saying 'These headphones Apple ships with their phones are completely useless cause there's way better, pricier high end stuff out there!' -> You're missing the point. Of course there's better stuff around and it's great that you can buy that and use it on your device, but for most people, those headphones that ship with the device are all they really want or need.

I'm sure everyone here would LOOOOVE for Sony to do the same thing Microsoft does (Don't tell me you wouldn't want to play games like Bloodborne, God of War, Uncharted, Last of Us, etc. at 4k, 60fps, HDR, etc. on your PC - If the OPTION would be there, a ton of people would be thrilled to play those games that way instead of the upscaled 4k, VRR-hopefully-60fps-but-not-quite, etc. experiences that you get on a console), but I think people would be scared that - if that happens - PC Gaming could kill Console gaming and let's be real here: That's just a bunch of nonsense. In no other segment are people so afraid that the HIGH END would absolutely murder the LOW END than in gaming.

I'd just love for people to accept that PC Gaming represents the HIGH END ALTERNATIVE to consoles instead of PCs representing some evil competition that might kill consoles. It never will. There'll always be a HUUUUGE segment of gamers who just don't want to deal with all the hassles that PC gaming brings with it. There's always going to be a huge amount of people who value convenience way more than performance - and that's fine. Your Prius isn't a useless piece of shit just because Porsche just made a new sports car.

Games should be available everywhere and gamers should have a choice. You want convenience, a good experience and don't want to break the bank? Get a console. You love performance and are willing to spend a bit more? Get a PC.

This is completely unrelated to this thread but I love Ori and the Blind Forest and Moon Studios, and I'll keep telling you this every opportunity I can.

On topic, I believe this is exactly the conclusion Microsoft came to, which shows in their current strategy. And I think PC Gamepass is going to be huge for them. Coming to Sony, I REALLY hope they release Dreams on PC, because PC is the perfect platform for a game like that, and I fear it might otherwise die on the PS4. Maybe I'm talking out of my ass, but I really feel that Dreams can be the Minecraft of a new generation, as long as Sony has the foresight to release it on the PC.

Also, the experience of gaming on a PC is markedly different to that of a console. Apart from having to fiddle with drivers and settings and controls, you're also unlikely to have a PC monitor as large as the TV in your house. So yeah, I don't think there's significant competition there.
 

Kyry

Member
Oct 27, 2017
836
It doesn't have to be a threat to the console market. Nintendo and Sony have made their exclusive content their selling point. Time will tell if Microsoft can do that with services or something else that isnt content.
 
May 25, 2019
6,026
London
I agree with the overall premise of the OP, but I do think streaming throws a wrinkle into this. I would be curious to see if there have been more console to PC converts in the last 3-5 years than beforehand just because of the relative ease and customization of streaming to Twitch, Mixer, or Youtube on a PC when compared to a console. I felt there was a real shift to PC back in 2011-2013, as the 360/PS3 were really showing their age at the tail end of an 8-year generation.

I think that streaming functionality is going to be a heavily advertised feature of the next consoles in a move to stave off any more PC migrants.
 

Delusibeta

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,648
While I do agree with the headline, I think the bulk of the argument is based on old, inaccurate stereotypes. The majority of PC gamers use hardware they basically already have, and the stereotypes of PC gamers being 8k 240Hz max settings or bust is just that: a stereotype. Ultimately, I do think the Xbox ecosystem is absolutely competing with Steam, Origin, EGS et al, I do acknowledge that a) the Xbox ecosystem now includes the Windows 10 store, and b) Microsoft has evidently concluded that they'd get more money selling on Steam in addition to Win10Store and Games Pass PC.
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,094
Feels like an overly defensive framing.

Of course there are plenty of reasons for someone to prefer gaming on PC, much like there are reasons for someone to prefer gaming on a console.

More and more games being available on PC that previously might have been only available on consoles (and this extends to first part games or otherwise) does absolutely tip things in the favour of PC. It would be ridiculous to say that it doesn't.

For Microsoft specifically, I see a lot of "they don't care if you play their games on PC or console", and I don't think that's entirely true. They'd love it if the huge number of people playing Halo on Steam right now instead wanted to buy an Xbox. It's obviously to their advantage if someone games on a platform that they have total control over vs one they have less control over. If I buy an Xbox to play Halo on, I also buy lots of games/other stuff they get a percentage of the revenue from. If I buy a PC and play Halo on Steam, Microsoft don't get any revenue from other games I buy on Steam.

Yes they've made the commendable decision that it's better for people to engage with their games and services even outside of the Xbox platform, but that does not mean that it makes no difference to them either way.

In economic terms, PC gaming and console gaming are substitute goods, but not perfect substitute goods. Of course they are competing.
 
Nov 2, 2017
2,275
Yes. PC is niche, and an alternative. The more consoles are like PCs, the more evident it gets that they are not direct competitors.

Put all games on everything and let the consumer decide.
I think Steam has similar MAUs as PSN so I don't think niche is really the right term. That's just Steam btw. Within the PC market there are a lot of specific niches, like the $500+ GPU crowd the OP mentions for example, but I'd say the same is true for the console market. I'd say that for some of these niches there's definitely competition.

Yes, you do. Good luck building a PC for under 1000$ that has the same specs as the XSX and that runs games in the same way on PC. Consoles are sold at a loss, PCs aren't. When you develop for consoles, you know exactly what you're targeting, so you can optimize the hell out of that machine, which isn't what's happening for PC games. On PCs, you just deal with a ton of overhead and you're throwing insane amounts of power at it to overcome that. All PC games could run a hell of a lot better on the given hardware if the games would actually be specifically made for that hardware. So even if your PC is on paper better than a console, in practice that often won't result in you having a comparable experience. And again, most people don't wanna deal with that shit.

This just reads like the typical console vs PC war argument you see all the time. I can put a 5700xt in a $1000 PC, which makes it 2x as powerful as the X1X. You could easily do a 580 build below $1000 when the X1X launched that matches it. The overhead really only exists on the CPU side and right now any CPU is "insane amounts" better than the Jaguars in a console. On the GPU front this just isn't the case and a 580, which on paper is similar to the X1X's GPU, can match the X1x.

It's true that you can't match a console with a PC at the same price but you're saying it costs more than double to match a console which just isn't the case. I mean right now you can double the X1X for less than a $1000. That means the price/performance ratio is pretty similar.

Edit: misread XSX for X1X. The SeX abbreviation is much better to keep them apart. Still I'm confident that in a year you can easily do a build that matches it for less than $1000.
 
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Slaythe

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,841
If you have a platform that has access to the all the titles then that's all you need ...

I'm not a PC only gamer, yet if ps5 games are coming to Pc I'm out of the console market and I'll get the PC versions for cheaper.

It is true that I will never own a MS console again because of their PC support and Xcloud in case I can't run some AAA in the future.

If that wasn't there on PC I would consider buying their console and their xbox live.

Yes they will get my money with gamepass but that's probably less than what they'd gotten from me on the console side.

You're also completely overplaying how much a good PC costs.

My PC has outperformed my ps4pro and it didn't cost me a lot 4 years ago.

I only upgraded ram and gpu (kept everything else, my cpu is old but was top of the line at the time, still performs great), but still. That's why they're called upgrades, you don't start from scratch.
 

Dennis8K

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,161
As a Tier 3 PC gaming fan I feel that a lot of PC gaming is on the low/medium, not high, end.

A PC that can play modern games isn't that expensive.
 

Kokoro

Member
Jan 23, 2019
218
France
I was surprised last time when I saw in a thread people saying a game sold well on Steam because it had 42000 players. I mean, isn't that kinda low when a lot of console games are in the millions? When I see numbers like that I tend to think PC is a niche market compared to consoles. So, no, I don't think PC is a threat to consoles. Maybe on enthusiasts forum like here people says they don't need a console if the exclusives are on PC, but I think the vast majority of people who buy consoles will continue to buy consoles no matter what.
 

AshenOne

Member
Feb 21, 2018
6,089
Pakistan
Yes, you do. Good luck building a PC for under 1000$ that has the same specs as the XSX and that runs games in the same way on PC. Consoles are sold at a loss, PCs aren't. When you develop for consoles, you know exactly what you're targeting, so you can optimize the hell out of that machine, which isn't what's happening for PC games. On PCs, you just deal with a ton of overhead and you're throwing insane amounts of power at it to overcome that. All PC games could run a hell of a lot better on the given hardware if the games would actually be specifically made for that hardware. So even if your PC is on paper better than a console, in practice that often won't result in you having a comparable experience. And again, most people don't wanna deal with that shit.
Xbox One X still has a relatively weak CPU though.

Check out this video when you have time. Its a $500 RTX PC that outputs better quality than an Xbox One X



Ofcourse you can add a bit more stuff into it to make it more reliable for the long term and not be a $1000 PC still.

If one has knowledge on how to build PC then you can definitely get more performance under $1000 that outperforms Xbox One X in quality and performance.

I was surprised last time when I saw in a thread people saying a game sold well on Steam because it had 42000 players. I mean, isn't that kinda low when a lot of console games are in the millions? When I see numbers like that I tend to think PC is a niche market compared to consoles. So, no, I don't think PC is a threat to consoles. Maybe on enthusiasts forum like here people says they don't need a console if the exclusives are on PC, but I think the vast majority of people who buy consoles will continue to buy consoles no matter what.

That player number was PROBABLY concurrent players and not the total number of players playing a game. It would be better if you could provide a source on that.
 

Dunlop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,473
I'd say streaming stuff like Stadia (when it actually works) will be more of a threat to consoles then PC. Consoles are great because of the ease of use. If theses streaming things ever work, those might be easier.
Stadia shows the technology is there, but competing with companies that own many gaming studios is an uphill battle so not likely to be a real threat for a long time.

Seeing how PC's came easy before consoles shouldn't the title be reversed : p