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Deleted member 10060

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
959
User Banned (2 Weeks): Ignoring moderation, dismissing concerns surrounding prejudice and intolerance, previous similar infractions
Well, unlike this place, at least you don't get dogpiled for disagreeing over there.

Now let's do what the mod said, and get back on topic.
 

Hecht

Pushin’ me down, pushin’ me down, pushin’ me down
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
9,740
(Forgot to highlight it, oops)

Official Staff Communication
Drop the cross forum drama and get back to the topic, please.
 
Apr 9, 2019
552
CLT
While this public owning is pretty fantastic to laugh at I have to say that platforming alt-right figureheads is a recipe for disaster. You're never going to back them into admitting they were wrong, and you're never going to pierce the veil of obfuscation. Owens will, and largely already has, crawled back into her hole and announced herself the winner.

I'm not really sure that there's ever a good reason to ask white nationalists about white nationalism to be honest.
 

Ponn

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,171
While this public owning is pretty fantastic to laugh at I have to say that platforming alt-right figureheads is a recipe for disaster. You're never going to back them into admitting they were wrong, and you're never going to pierce the veil of obfuscation. Owens will, and largely already has, crawled back into her hole and announced herself the winner.

I'm not really sure that there's ever a good reason to ask white nationalists about white nationalism to be honest.

It isn't good to give irredeemable, hatred based rhetoric any kind of platform. All it does is normalize it and allow the cockroaches to come out into the light and multiply. They hide it as "just a different viewpoint" and make themselves out be the victims. It's like obvious playbook shit 101. It's not like we discuss feeding homeless children to others as sustenance as just a different viewpoint. Some things in life are just common sense.

And it's funny "someone" brought up the most perfect hard evidence of what happens when you let those people have an open platform on the last page of this thread. I would refer to what happened there as the perfect example when you give those asshat alt-righters an open mic. And while that is on topic in this discussion that's all I'll say on that.
 
Apr 9, 2019
552
CLT
It isn't good to give irredeemable, hatred based rhetoric any kind of platform. All it does is normalize it and allow the cockroaches to come out into the light and multiply. They hide it as "just a different viewpoint" and make themselves out be the victims. It's like obvious playbook shit 101. It's not like we discuss feeding homeless children to others as sustenance as just a different viewpoint. Some things in life are just common sense.

And it's funny "someone" brought up the most perfect hard evidence of what happens when you let those people have an open platform on the last page of this thread. I would refer to what happened there as the perfect example when you give those asshat alt-righters an open mic. And while that is on topic in this discussion that's all I'll say on that.

Agreed. I've been involved with anti-fascist work since I started going to punk shows and there was a time in college when I began to question the zero-tolerance policy we had towards Nazis that showed up to those spaces. (Fun fact: this was in the Atlanta, GA area and one of those Nazis was, once upon a time, Richard Spencer and a gang of skinheads he rolled with)

Not anymore.
 
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Somni

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
942
This thread is bizarre world. Lieu was disingenuous for that, she didn't glorify or idolize Hitler nor did she try to legitimize him, she even clarified herself in the hearing.
I'm glad that reasonable people aren't so quick to label and defame people based on out of context clips.
 

Deleted member 2809

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,478
This thread is bizarre world. Lieu was disingenuous for that, she didn't glorify or idolize Hitler nor did she try to legitimize him, she even clarified herself in the hearing.
I'm glad that reasonable people aren't so quick to label and defame people based on out of context clips.
Go back whence you came
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,885
This thread is bizarre world. Lieu was disingenuous for that, she didn't glorify or idolize Hitler nor did she try to legitimize him, she even clarified herself in the hearing.
I'm glad that reasonable people aren't so quick to label and defame people based on out of context clips.

Feel free to explain this human adult's position, which you seem to know intimately. Go!
 
Apr 9, 2019
552
CLT
This thread is bizarre world. Lieu was disingenuous for that, she didn't glorify or idolize Hitler nor did she try to legitimize him, she even clarified herself in the hearing.
I'm glad that reasonable people aren't so quick to label and defame people based on out of context clips.

The admonition of Hitler in the clip is actually tertiary to the point. Just the cartoonish cherry on top.
 

airbagged_

Member
Jan 21, 2019
5,683
Charleston, SC
This thread is bizarre world. Lieu was disingenuous for that, she didn't glorify or idolize Hitler nor did she try to legitimize him, she even clarified herself in the hearing.
I'm glad that reasonable people aren't so quick to label and defame people based on out of context clips.

... She knew exactly what she was getting out and who she was pandering to. It wasn't a clumsily put together argument or a whoopsie. No one should be pushing the "Hitler had some good ideas" agenda in this day and age.
 

Somni

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
942
The whole clip is available with context. Would you agree with her argument?
I do.
Feel free to explain this human adult's position, which you seem to know intimately. Go!
Intimately? what in the world lol. You can feel free to form your own opinion. I'm not obligated to explain myself to you.We don't have to agree, that's fine.
Go back whence you came
I don't have to go any where. Where are you even implying I come from? That's needlessly aggressive of you.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,885
I do.

Intimately? what in the world lol. You can feel free to form your own opinion. I'm not obligated to explain myself to you.We don't have to agree, that's fine.

I don't have to go any where. Where are you even implying I come from? That's needlessly aggressive of you.

So you don't have any context to add to Ms. Owens' verbal sewage, but you're sure she's being misrepresented. How nice of you to be her fascist-whisperer, but you've failed to even accomplish that. Sad!
 

Somni

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
942
User banned (1 Month): Downplaying and defending hate speech
So you don't have any context to add to Ms. Owens' verbal sewage, but you're sure she's being misrepresented. How nice of you to be her fascist-whisperer, but you've failed to even accomplish that. Sad!
Ad homninems. Classy.

You no context to prove that she is in fact a "facist-whisperer", whatever that even means lol
... She knew exactly what she was getting out and who she was pandering to. It wasn't a clumsily put together argument or a whoopsie. No one should be pushing the "Hitler had some good ideas" agenda in this day and age.
No, she doesn't know, you're implying all of that base on your perception. That's your opinion of her, and I don't agree with it.
 

Noodle

Banned
Aug 22, 2018
3,427
The whole clip is available with context. Would you agree with her argument?

I do.

To be clear, the argument you agree with is:

"Whenever we say 'nationalism,' the first thing people think about, at least in America, is Hitler. You know, he was a national socialist, but if Hitler just wanted to make Germany great and have things run well, OK, fine."

"The problem is that he wanted — he had dreams outside of Germany.
He wanted to globalize. He wanted everybody to be German, everybody to be speaking German. Everybody to look a different way. That's not, to me, that's not nationalism. In thinking about how we could go bad down the line, I don't really have an issue with nationalism. I really don't. I think that it's OK."

Please explain the missing context that turns her comments into the polar opposite of how they currently read.
 

Truly Gargantuan

Still doesn't have a tag :'(
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,034
This thread is bizarre world. Lieu was disingenuous for that, she didn't glorify or idolize Hitler nor did she try to legitimize him, she even clarified herself in the hearing.
I'm glad that reasonable people aren't so quick to label and defame people based on out of context clips.
I agree in that she wasn't trying to idolize, glorify, or legitimize. But what she was doing was trying to twist the word Nationalist into a good thing by calling Hitler a Globalist. That's my problem here, she's normalizing Nationalism by trying mislabel Hitler as a Globalist.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,215
While this public owning is pretty fantastic to laugh at I have to say that platforming alt-right figureheads is a recipe for disaster. You're never going to back them into admitting they were wrong, and you're never going to pierce the veil of obfuscation. Owens will, and largely already has, crawled back into her hole and announced herself the winner.

I'm not really sure that there's ever a good reason to ask white nationalists about white nationalism to be honest.

By the rules of congress, the minority party has a right to bring their own witnesses/individuals to testify to congress. It's not that Democrats invited Candace Owens to speak, they invited experts and victims of white nationalism to speak to congress and testify, while Republicans "countered" with someone who publicly states that Hitler isn't that bad and the real racists are the left.

It's staggering that Republicans even think they have to counter with their own witnesses in congressional testimony about how white nationalism is bad. THe very idea of white nationalism is antithetical to congress because White nationalists, properly understood, believe in breaking off from the United States to form an all-white nation.
 
Feb 3, 2018
1,130
Ad homninems. Classy.

You no context to prove that she is in fact a "facist-whisperer", whatever that even means lol

No, she doesn't know, you're implying all of that base on your perception. That's your opinion of her, and I don't agree with it.


Dude even Fox News and fucking Lou Dobbs told her invoking Hitler was a really bad idea when she went on Fox to explain the whole Hitler comment.

And when Lou Dobbs calls you out and actually has a point you know you fucked up.
 

Mr. X

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,495
I'm happy Era doesn't tolerate "racism is just a political opinion" but holy shit it is becoming normalized around me.
 
Apr 9, 2019
552
CLT
By the rules of congress, the minority party has a right to bring their own witnesses/individuals to testify to congress. It's not that Democrats invited Candace Owens to speak, they invited experts and victims of white nationalism to speak to congress and testify, while Republicans "countered" with someone who publicly states that Hitler isn't that bad and the real racists are the left.

It's staggering that Republicans even think they have to counter with their own witnesses in congressional testimony about how white nationalism is bad. THe very idea of white nationalism is antithetical to congress because White nationalists, properly understood, believe in breaking off from the United States to form an all-white nation.

Ah, that does make more sense. And just to be clear, I'm not directly accusing Democrats of platforming ethno-nationalists, but Congress in general. I guess this is a legal and moral grey-zone given the nature of representative justice. But as I'm sure you understand fascists love a camera and a microphone.

Republicans are certainly wearing their naked colors lately. But then, who do you think Toilet Paper USA gets all of their funding from? They seem to be a joke on the internet, by and large, even on their corporate social media accounts they're roundly mocked.

I'm happy Era doesn't tolerate "racism is just a political opinion" but holy shit it is becoming normalized around me.

Just want to point out that, yes, same here but also that's why I already love this community. Haven't felt safe in a gaming-adjacent space in some time.
 

cakely

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,149
Chicago
This thread is bizarre world. Lieu was disingenuous for that, she didn't glorify or idolize Hitler nor did she try to legitimize him, she even clarified herself in the hearing.
I'm glad that reasonable people aren't so quick to label and defame people based on out of context clips.

It's not, and he wasn't.

I don't even want to know who you think the "reasonable people" are in this thread.
 

GrizzleBoy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,762
Can we just agree that suggesting that the "real" problem with Hitler was that he dared to want to do MORE than killing all the German minorities, is a bad thing to do and that you shouldnt do that?
 

HiLife

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
39,983
I might cop a ban for this, as cross forum drama is frowned upon but fuck it. The shower goblin himself EviLore is defending that hag over at the old place. And I'm not surprised. No wonder that place only attracts bottom feeders now.

Dude is a clown and the old forum is the new 4chan
 
Oct 30, 2017
8,745
This thread is bizarre world. Lieu was disingenuous for that, she didn't glorify or idolize Hitler nor did she try to legitimize him, she even clarified herself in the hearing.
I'm glad that reasonable people aren't so quick to label and defame people based on out of context clips.
*eye roll*

She was defending the ideology of white nationalism. She basically said the main problem is that she tried to export Nazism outward like a globalist.
She's critiquing globalism (which is rooted in anti-Semitism) while promoting an isolationist agenda that defends Trump's terrible relationships with other foreign leaders.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,946
Can we just agree that suggesting that the "real" problem with Hitler was that he dared to want to do MORE than killing all the German minorities, is a bad thing to do and that you shouldnt do that?

This is the part that is lost in all of this. She appears to be ok with all his racist policies and actions so long as they stayed within Germany. That's a problem and only serves to highlight the problem having her on a panel about fighting against white nationalism.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,215

First, I wish that Somni wasn't banned, I just hate when users are banned when something can be explained in a way that could convince them otherwise. Now, I don't know Somni from adam and so maybe Somni has a track record of defending bad history in the name of nationalism (I don't know, probably not), but I think it's possible to respond to Candace Owen's comments in context and explain how they're factually incorrect from a historical standpoint, and from a contemporary standpoint, miss the point of what 'America' is.

I'm quoting Somni not to argue against Somni, but to explain why Candace Owen's comments about Hitler, Nationalism, and Globalism are incorrect, and why nobody should believe in them. I know that Somni can't reply to this post, but I'm sure there's a handful of lurkers who might agree that Candace Owen's has a point about Hitler, Nationalists, and Globalism, and so I'm replying to Somni's post as a response to anybody who might think there's value to her argument.

There isn't.

I'm paraphrasing Owens here, but she says that Hitler's problem was globalism, not nationalism, and that if he stayed focused on just nationalism -- making Germany Great -- then she wouldn't have a problem with Hitler or perhaps Hitler would be less problematic. I think it's reasonable to extrapolate that Owens would not have had a problem with Hitler up until he invaded Poland. There is such a key flaw in this argument and it's the crux of why Nationalism is despicable. Germany in the 1930s had a large Jewish population, about 500,000 people, and about 80% of Jews in Germany were German citizens, about 400,000 people. In addition to Jews, there were hundreds of thousands of people -- homosexuals, other racial groups, the mentally handicapped, phsychologically disturbed veteran of WW1, drug users -- who were also considered impediments to German Nationalism, which Hitler -- an Austrian by birth -- did not consider proper Germans. So, to establish a proper Germany for Germans, Hitler and his Nazi allies devised a campaign of stripping citizenship, expulsion, arrested, and of course eventually, slaughter, which has come to be known as the Holocaust.

This is antithetical to how a leader should be leading a nation. If a leader has to destroy 500,000+ of his country's citizens to establish an acceptable nation, that person is not a leader, they're a monster.

Owens' argument is sort of like a bastardization of a very true argument about Europe's ability to police itself in the wake of the Treaty of Versaille and World War I. European powers had given themselves the ability to keep Germany's military war making ability in check for most of the 10 years following World War I, but they had no mechanism in place to prevent any country from systematically destroying its own citizens. Despite there being evidence in the aftermath of World War I that the Ottoman Empire/Turks had systematically destroyed native Armenians living in and around present-day Turkey, Europe had not sought any sort of mechanism to prevent that from happening again... They assumed it just wouldn't happen: Why would a country try to destroy its own citizens when those citizens could be used for the war machine? Well, they didn't anticipate how Hitler and the NAzis would motivate centuries old European anti-semitism in an effort to annihilate Judaism. HAd Hitler never invaded Poland, it's entirely likely that he could have "solved" the German National "problem" (that is, the existence of Jews and undesirables within Germany and Austria) because Europe would have had no existing mechanism under the Treaty of Versaille to do anything about it.

Owens deems that Hitler's problem was that he was a globalist. Well, not really. Hitler saw Poland and Western USSR as being rightful German territory. Hitler's invasion of Poland and eventual invasion of the Soviet Union was not a globalist vision, it wasn't to make Russia German, it was because he believed in an ancient, flawed, mythical vision of Germany as this everlasting nation that expanded well beyond the borders drawn up after Versaille. This is particularly important to me because I'm Polish: Hitler's blitz through Poland wasn't justified via globalism, it was justified via nationalism.

Owens' retelling of history to fit a nationalist lens is not only wrong -- Hitler was not a globalist when he started the extermination of Jews or when he invaded Poland, he was a nationalist -- but it's also deeply threatening to the concept of the United States. THe United States is not a national homeland for anyone, it never was and was never intended to be. It was always and still is an experimental project around building a country not for a particular nationality, but for a particular ideology -- the ideology of constitutional democracy.

Owen's comments on Hitler wanting to 'Make Germany Great,' reminds me of a retort for people who defend or characterize Putin as being a 'strong' leader. A lot of people commonly say, "Well, Putin may be authoritarian, but you've got to credit him for being a strong leader..." usually as a contrast to Gorbachev. One of my favorite current affairs commentators (and world famous Chess Grand Champion), Garry Kasparov has a saying that 'Putin is a strong leader like how arsenic is a strong drink.' Likewise, with authoritarian dictators like Hitler, or even on the left like Stalin, Mao, Ceausescu, Hugo Chavez, and others, they're not strong leaders and they're not effective leaders. Hitler may have built a world-class highway, but he wouldn't have been able to justify the cost of that highway without nationalizing private industry in Germany, and he couldn't have nationalized private industry without the Nazi war machine, and the Nazi war machine is what led directly to the deaths of not just millions of innocent civilians, but millions and millions of Germans. THe cost of a highway is not worth the price of tens of millions of civilians dying. Likewise with any other authoritarian "strongman."
 
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OrdinaryPrime

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,042
She clearly tried to link Hitler as a socialist by mentioning he was a National Socialist, instead of just as a Nazi, which everyone uses when describing him. Nazis are not socialists, despite the fact that in their official party name, it mentions socialism. They are fascists. Period.

She clearly tried to push that globalism is wrong and that was why Hitler was wrong. That if he had stayed in his own country and made it great it would have been okay. She did not reference the Holocaust in her original statement whatsoever. This is problematic and her whole line of argumentation is problematic.

Anyone who thinks that she made a salient point is either falling for her schtick (which is making her thousands and thousands of dollars as the ultimate dog whistle) or frankly has tendencies that I would rather not reference.

On top of all this, the Republicans think that as the minority party, she of all people, a black woman who is part of the white supremacy movement that has taken hold across the Internet and the globe (ironic I think), think she is a good foil to discussing white nationalism. Like what the fuck?
 

How About No

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,785
The Great Dairy State
I read through that thread... and there's exactly 1 person trying to have a coherent argument and everyone's replying to them with "WELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL THE LEFT IS SO RACIST.... CAUSE THEY DONT AGREE WITH HER..." It's a shithole. (Also props to the shower jumper for posting the "N word vs black people" Chris Rock sketch to prove his point)

Anyway, back on topic... the amount of damage control conservatives are piling on is disgusting. Just say you worship Hitler and go.
Whoaa that sounds more refreshing than a Diet Racism(tm)
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,215
Ah, that does make more sense. And just to be clear, I'm not directly accusing Democrats of platforming ethno-nationalists, but Congress in general. I guess this is a legal and moral grey-zone given the nature of representative justice. But as I'm sure you understand fascists love a camera and a microphone.

While we're definitely on the same page of deplatforming racist idiots, don't think that it's a legal or moral grey area for congress to allow minority party testimony. If the majority party were the only party who could bring "experts" to testify, then I think that would be much more immoral and dangerous. For instance, Republicans held the congressional majority from ~2011 - 2017, and you could only imagine if they held congressional testimony on something like Climate Change, the Affordable Care Act, gun ownership, or any number of important issues, they could stack hours of congressional testimony with crackpots who would present a very wrong view of the world. Because of the minority party has a right to call their own experts to testify, it becomes politically risk for Republicans (or whoever) to call for a hearing on, say, climate change, because Democrats will bring out experts on the topic who will bury climate change deniers.
 

Froyo Love

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,503
First, I wish that Somni wasn't banned, I just hate when users are banned when something can be explained in a way that could convince them otherwise. Now, I don't know Somni from adam and so maybe Somni has a track record of defending bad history in the name of nationalism (I don't know, probably not), but I think it's possible to respond to Candace Owen's comments in context and explain how they're factually incorrect from a historical standpoint, and from a contemporary standpoint, miss the point of what 'America' is.

I'm quoting Somni not to argue against Somni, but to explain why Candace Owen's comments about Hitler, Nationalism, and Globalism are incorrect, and why nobody should believe in them.
no one arguing in good faith sees a politician praising Hitler's policies and says "They were totally taken out of context" instead of, maybe, "They really screwed up expressing themselves if they're not a fascist"

if they're not arguing in good faith you're completely wasting your time writing to them

ban them back to the sludgeholes
 

Molecule

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,691
https://youtu.be/wsCbLSqz85s


Can someone explain to me this point of view? This is the same exact thing we saw in the OP but I'm assuming this is from a right wing network and they see it as Owens coming out on top? How are we looking at the same thing and taking completely different interpretations from it?
 

lampeater

Member
Oct 27, 2017
880
if they're not arguing in good faith you're completely wasting your time writing to them

I agree with you about not bothering with engaging those throwing out bad-faith arguments, but as Albatross noted, I think it's worth while to dissect the bad faith argument if it's made in a public forum - not to convince the one throwing it out there, but to speak to those who might be taken in by it. IIRC, this is the reasoning Kevin M Kruse, the historian who does take-downs of D'Souza's nonsense on Twitter, follows: it's to address those who might not have the background who might be fooled by the inane gibberish. More power to folks who have the background and energy to do this, I say.
 

Treestump

Member
Mar 28, 2018
8,381
eXZZWy7.gif
Was reading this thread late last night and couldn't stop laughing. These are incredible and are going to get so much use.