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Canadian Election 2019 |OT| One Long Year of Scheer Stupidity [Update: Liberal Minority Government]
- Thread starter Caz
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Yup. Scheer debate prep must be a marathon having to practice against Trudeau, Bernier and Legault.
In a perfect world Bernier shaves off just enough votes to screw Scheer but not win any seats.
This world is a nightmare, though, so he'll probably end up kingmaker in a minority parliament.
This world is a nightmare, though, so he'll probably end up kingmaker in a minority parliament.
Quebec government moves to ban popular bilingual greeting 'bonjour/hi'
From what I see anecdotally in the tech industry, Montreal is an attractive place of growth and a lot of potential. Their government has thrown around all sorts of tax credits to allure digital entertainment companies to set up there which are all very high tech. However, there always seems to be this shadow from the provincial government that looms over with these sorts of policies that feels unwelcoming. Why can't people just speak what they want to speak? I honestly think all these unwelcoming policies from religion to language serve as a hinderance to the growth of some of Montreal's fastest growing sectors which generally rely on diversity in talents (tech industry for one).
From what I see anecdotally in the tech industry, Montreal is an attractive place of growth and a lot of potential. Their government has thrown around all sorts of tax credits to allure digital entertainment companies to set up there which are all very high tech. However, there always seems to be this shadow from the provincial government that looms over with these sorts of policies that feels unwelcoming. Why can't people just speak what they want to speak? I honestly think all these unwelcoming policies from religion to language serve as a hinderance to the growth of some of Montreal's fastest growing sectors which generally rely on diversity in talents (tech industry for one).
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They like to take the most hateful parts of each dogma and cocktail them together.
I don't think that this would stand up in court, as it's difficult to legislate what people are allowed to say to each other.
Quebec government moves to ban popular bilingual greeting 'bonjour/hi'
From what I see anecdotally in the tech industry, Montreal is an attractive place of growth and a lot of potential. Their government has thrown around all sorts of tax credits to allure digital entertainment companies to set up there which are all very high tech. However, there always seems to be this shadow from the provincial government that looms over with these sorts of policies that feels unwelcoming. Why can't people just speak what they want to speak?
LMAO I forgot that Quebec tried to ban the word "Pasta".
Ontario is a garbage province most of the time, but Quebec seems just as uptight if not moreso.
i am French and I think this is moronicQuebec government moves to ban popular bilingual greeting 'bonjour/hi'
From what I see anecdotally in the tech industry, Montreal is an attractive place of growth and a lot of potential. Their government has thrown around all sorts of tax credits to allure digital entertainment companies to set up there which are all very high tech. However, there always seems to be this shadow from the provincial government that looms over with these sorts of policies that feels unwelcoming. Why can't people just speak what they want to speak?
Quebec government moves to ban popular bilingual greeting 'bonjour/hi'
From what I see anecdotally in the tech industry, Montreal is an attractive place of growth and a lot of potential. Their government has thrown around all sorts of tax credits to allure digital entertainment companies to set up there which are all very high tech. However, there always seems to be this shadow from the provincial government that looms over with these sorts of policies that feels unwelcoming. Why can't people just speak what they want to speak?
I don't want to get into this debate here, but let me guess, you don't speak French as your first language and don't live in Quebec, right?
Because going into a store in Montreal and having to deal with employees that don't speak French at all can indeed be a bit of a problem sometimes. Not necessarily for me, because I can speak both languages, but for many people.
No doubt everyone's stance on Bill 21 is a disappointment all around. I too was hoping to see Singh take a stronger stand.
This is one of the downsides of FPTP, where strategically appealing to certain region specific seats becomes overweighted in importance, and this distorts the campaign promises.
If the NDP are light on details about how they're gonna meet their targets the Liberals are even more so. Planting trees (where?) isn't going to cut it. I feel the same way though that I'd like to hear more from the two parties on the concrete details. My expectation is that the unsaid thing of both parties is increases to the carbon tax. The NDP's platform also has a fair bit of emphasis on public transit (ie. mentions free transit even) so the notion of 'taking cars off the road' may be a big part of their CO2 reduction plan.
I think you've touched on something interesting here. Both the Liberals and Conservatives have attempted to play up the 'universality' of their big tax cut promises (literally so in the naming of the CPC tax cut), but the NDP have done a bit of a weaker job. In this election the NDP's major planks seem to be Universal Pharmacare and Dentalcare which are indeed universal programs and would help a huge amount of people, but I think unfortunately it is easy for those that work at big companies with great healthcare plans to ignore the value of this promise and think it doesn't apply to them. Of course it does apply to them as well, as it opens up opportunities for them to leave their job for entrepeneurship and not face the negative impact of losing coverage.
So this happened in Australia yesterday and makes me wonder why America allowed this exchange to happen but is forcing Canada to hold Meng. Maybe it's because Australia basically has a Trump-light government right now/
I am not from Quebec and I only know French from my elementary school education here. I can only speak from an immigrant's point of view which is that this kind of law makes me feel incredibly unwelcome. We have retailers where I live that will greet you and speak to you in their non-English/French mother tongues if they so choose. I do not see why this is something that the Quebec government needs to waste time on regulating or even enforcing, if that's even possible. I am further confused at why Quebec, in that quote, said that their official provincial language is French. Canada, the country, is bilingual. I am not aware a province has the power to ignore that?
I've been mostly going off stuff like this Maclean's comparison for info on the Liberal climate change plan (though I am aware that Andrew Leach was an advisor on the Liberal plan, something he's noted explicitly in other commentary he's done for the CBC on each party's climate plans), but I think the biggest thing that sells Liberal efforts in this area is that there seems to be decent consensus that the Liberals have actually managed to make decent progress in their first mandate. Understandably, this creates two advantages for the Liberals that might be unfair: one, they get to run on their record on climate change, which the other parties obviously can't do; and two, as the incumbents they get to be the "default" choice, i.e. the NDP's plans have to show additional homework on how their more aggressive targets can be met, something the Liberals don't really have to worry as much about. So yeah, fair point that the Liberals may also have some vagueness in their plan.
The NDP's promises on public transit sound great, but after decades of living in Toronto I'm immediately skeptical. All it takes is one sufficiently terrible government at any of the federal, provincial and municipal levels to derail progress on public transit for years if not decades, and I've essentially lost hope that there will be meaningful improvement in my lifetime, aside from small things like the King Street pilot. But that's not the NDP's fault and I would definitely rather have them on board than not. But it does also mean that I immediately ignore promises like "fare-free transit" because LOL yeah right are you fucking kidding me, good luck getting Metrolinx and the TTC to administer that. (I also assume that fare-free transit would be more for places that have small or underdeveloped transit systems, not for major urban centers, because that would be so incredibly expensive that I could never see it happening, especially given how much of our public transit is currently funded by user fares as opposed to actual government funding.)
I agree this is problematic but how will banning a bilingual greeting will fix it?
Quebec government moves to ban popular bilingual greeting 'bonjour/hi'
From what I see anecdotally in the tech industry, Montreal is an attractive place of growth and a lot of potential. Their government has thrown around all sorts of tax credits to allure digital entertainment companies to set up there which are all very high tech. However, there always seems to be this shadow from the provincial government that looms over with these sorts of policies that feels unwelcoming. Why can't people just speak what they want to speak? I honestly think all these unwelcoming policies from religion to language serve as a hinderance to the growth of some of Montreal's fastest growing sectors which generally rely on diversity in talents (tech industry for one).
I love Quebec, but sometimes it's just too damn much. And they wonder why many Canadians who haven't been there before have a certain perception of what the typical quebecer is like
Yeah it won't. This is dumb as fuck and unenforceable anyway. The kind of shit that makes me embarrassed to be Québécoise.
Provinces can have their own official languages too. Quebec's is French, New Brunswick's is both French and English.
Notwithstanding clause can't be used to limit speech, however.
Interesting but seems very counterintuitive. I feel it makes more sense for provincial languages to be additive to the federal official languages, right? The federal official languages should be the basic foundation in this and provinces can add to it if they want, provincially. I did not realize this is something that a province has power over.
Without French as official and protected language, Quebec would have turned anglophone long ago.
French needs to be protected as much as possible in Quebec if we don't want it to be swallowed whole by English. It's an actual struggle that needs to be adressed and constantly be watched. Bonjour/Hi is not the actual issue, it's more a symptom of a bigger problem. Trying to make it "illegal" to say it is ridiculous and could not be enforced in any way.
The principle should be that there should be no circumstances in Quebec where you cannot be served in french. And it happens. There are stores in Montreal where they literally greet you in English first, and places where you can struggle to find someone who speaks french. To say the opposite is just simply untrue. The vast majority of people in Quebec start to learn english at a young age.
Surrounded by Canada and the US, how else could french have a chance to exist? It's slowly losing ground, even with la loi 101. Just look at how french is treated and present in other provinces.
Ah, the good old "I love Quebec but ...". Language needs to be protected. I don't agree with what Legault is doing with this particular case, but it still needs to be protected. If the perception of Canadians who haven't been here is negative because of that, it's a problem on their end. Not ours.
EDIT : Removed unnecessary comment about the french quality of the roc.
The principle should be that there should be no circumstances in Quebec where you cannot be served in french. And it happens. There are stores in Montreal where they literally greet you in English first, and places where you can struggle to find someone who speaks french. To say the opposite is just simply untrue. The vast majority of people in Quebec start to learn english at a young age.
Surrounded by Canada and the US, how else could french have a chance to exist? It's slowly losing ground, even with la loi 101. Just look at how french is treated and present in other provinces.
Ah, the good old "I love Quebec but ...". Language needs to be protected. I don't agree with what Legault is doing with this particular case, but it still needs to be protected. If the perception of Canadians who haven't been here is negative because of that, it's a problem on their end. Not ours.
EDIT : Removed unnecessary comment about the french quality of the roc.
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The fact that this is even remotely plausible is tragic.
Trudeau believes that the monetary compensation is too low and wants to pay the victims more money! /s
I agree. I was worried for a bit but he has really come into his own. If he is given the opportunity to remain as leader for a few elections, I can see a Layton Orange wave in his future.
Those are some surprisingly good numbers for Singh in Quebec.
Let there be another orange wave
Hahahahahaha, man at least we're going to get some good laughs with Max still running.
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It really does not need to be protected at all. The protection of French in Quebec is nothing more than xenophobia, paranoia and the constant trampling of minority rights that Quebec loves to do. Quebec always pulls out the victim complex too when called on its bullshit, and it's gross every time.
You know how you keep your language relevant? By evolving it and promoting its use, not by restricting others. Quebec doesn't know where the line is half the time and has no problem denying non-Francophones service all because they are so afraid of minorities. It's gross, has always been gross, and there really is no excusing it.
Montreal is a centre of commerce, of course people should speak English given all of the external tourism. People should also be educated and provided support to learn French, it doesn't have to be the us vs. them mentality that sickens the entire province.
I've seen non-Francophones in Quebec denied service, physically attacked, been told they don't belong here and all sorts of other gross things. Quebec hurts its own economy and growth time and time again by implementing stupid laws like 21 and 101, going through referendums and then hiding behind a shield of "Well it happened to us too!" and "Je me souviens!" when called on their bullshit hatred of anyone who isn't a purely Francophone Quebecer.
The faster the xenophobic separatist older population goes away in Quebec, the better off the province will be for it. Embracing multiculturalism has always been the best path for the future, and Quebec as a whole needs to embrace that. Not just the city of Montreal.
Signed - a born and raised Quebecer.
(If it wasn't obvious, not attacking you personally, you've always seemed like a nice person! The situation here just causes my blood to boil sometimes as someone who has friends and family who have been through some gross things)
God damn those French acronyms... When the NDP is polling higher than you at the moment in terms of debate performance/report card. It's not looking good.
This makes me so sad. Indigenous population is basically the worst treated minority in Canada and frankly no one really cares. Someone earlier was talking about how Singh was hoping to tackle the issue about access to clean water. Trudeau said the same 4 years ago too. Sad truth is no one really cares about them unless it's election season or there is a yet another inquiry or report showing how they are poorly treated, the horrors they had to deal with in residential schools, how indigenous women were victims of mass murders and the grave injustice like in the case of Colten Boushie.
It's been like that for years and no one is doing anything. At all. How many reports did we have coast to coast about the poor overall treatment of indigenous populations over the last few years? There was one in QC last week, there was also one recently at a Federal Level.
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As for the QC thing Legault is basically PQ 2.0 like I said a while ago. He openly claimed he didn't want to take part in this campaign but he's constantly making announcements to make Trudeau trip. His Bonjour-Hi thing is no different than when he openly defied them to go against him in court over Bill 21. Trudeau has more to lose than the others (as he will never openly attack QC) and Legault clearly doesn't want a majority government. It's also a ridiculous concept and there is no way to actually enforce it. Yes, it's a real problem but with a simple solution not requiring the government. If people don't want to serve you in French in QC then don't shop there or don't eat at that restaurant. This way if they don't respect you then you don't support them financially and they will have to improve. Case closed.
The toxifying of indigenous lands was mentioned yesterday. It's not only the ongoing but the previous century too. All the pollution has caused so many problems to the health of the people, wildlife and plants. Entire food chain and ecology. The national mind is getting around to that; it's aware.
Libs have done quite a bit of work on the water file. Not sure how they triage and fix. Think they fixed like 60% and on track for 100% by 2022. Someone should correct this if it's off by too much.
I've been hearing the national anthem sung in indigenous languages. So, there's that recognition. Progress is progress.
Libs have done quite a bit of work on the water file. Not sure how they triage and fix. Think they fixed like 60% and on track for 100% by 2022. Someone should correct this if it's off by too much.
I've been hearing the national anthem sung in indigenous languages. So, there's that recognition. Progress is progress.
What do you mean? You can totally embrace multiculturalism while protecting your language and culture at the same time. What should we say to the majority of the Quebec population that can only speak French? Forget this nonsense and speak english like the rest of Canada?
Don't worry, I understand what it's like to write when a situation makes your blood boil especially when you have a personal stake in it. Didn't take any of this personally.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying in a way, just thinking that the link between language and xenophobia is pretty flimsy. Xenophobia is xenophobia, no matter what the language is. Hateful people will still find a way to hate others. There are horrible things that are happening everywhere in the country, Québec is far from being the only place where it happens.
Also disagree a lot with your take on how to keep language relevant and sovereignty. But I don't want to make this whole thread about it for a while so we could continue this discussion in DMs one day if you want. Or maybe have a thread about it somehow.
Banning bonjour/hi won't change anything.
It's just a stupid idea from the ethno-nationalists at the CAQ.
Quebec wouldn't transition to 100% English overnight, it would take generations. French Quebecois outnumber everyone else in this province at a ratio of 8:1 or more.
Like I said, promote French, reward the use of French so that it remains the primary language, but Quebec doesn't have to implement stupid laws like 21 and 101 because they are afraid of minorities and that's what those laws represent: fear.
Just as minorities should be better equipped to learn French. French speakers should be better equipped to learn other languages, including English, since it's a language used in media, when they travel, etc.
My wife, who is a pure Quebecois, was raised in the French school system and works in it today, and she says daily that French children are not being equipped enough to learn other languages and aren't equipped enough to learn French itself. That needs to be fixed too.
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I was going to say, learning Quebecois french is not Parisian, it's not exactly as applicable (not saying it's not useful at all! I'm sure it is) to the world stage as Parisian
With the debates tomorrow and thoughts about how to evaluate leadership qualities forefront. Outside simple platform and campaign behavior what else can a person think about?
Who would they be as the avatar of national mind is an answer I came to.
Thought it might help to go back to the classics
The first four lines seem to apply to 4 types of rulers.
The fifth line what undermines if any of them fall.
A Virtue as antidote to previous vice.
Don't expect a statue. lol
Tao Te Ching
Chapter 17
The supreme rulers are hardly known by their subjects.
The lesser are loved and praised.
The even lesser are feared.
The least are despised.
Those who show no trust will not be trusted.
Those who are quiet value the words.
When their task is completed, people will say:
We did it ourselves.
Who would they be as the avatar of national mind is an answer I came to.
Thought it might help to go back to the classics
The first four lines seem to apply to 4 types of rulers.
The fifth line what undermines if any of them fall.
A Virtue as antidote to previous vice.
Don't expect a statue. lol
Tao Te Ching
Chapter 17
The supreme rulers are hardly known by their subjects.
The lesser are loved and praised.
The even lesser are feared.
The least are despised.
Those who show no trust will not be trusted.
Those who are quiet value the words.
When their task is completed, people will say:
We did it ourselves.
isn't it in the best interests of the media to claim all elections are closer than they are? last federal election where the Libs basically decimated the NDP and CONS i distinctly remember these same "Its super close" polls.
i aint believing shit until the ballots have been counted. these hourly polls are meaningless.
i aint believing shit until the ballots have been counted. these hourly polls are meaningless.
Not sure I understand what you mean here.
It's a different accent. We understand each other perfectly. Some expressions can get lost here and there but it's not that much different than an american speaking with a british person ...
Last election was weird because the Liberals only surged at the end. Prior to that both the CPC and NDP were leading at various points.
The media definitely overplays the horse race aspect though.
I was just in Iceland and man, if they can hold onto their 1000 year old language of only 358,000 speakers even though literally everyone there I interacted with spoke fluent English I think Quebec should be able to be ok.
I support Quebec's Bill 101 and sign laws, but banning 'hi' is lmao dumb.
I support Quebec's Bill 101 and sign laws, but banning 'hi' is lmao dumb.
YEP. This is definitely the problem with grandiose federal promises around public transit (or really anything that is a provincial jurisdiction). Those that have been following Canadian politics on Resetera since the 2015 election know that I was talking about this potential issue with Trudeau's big infrastructure promises. People were getting excited that 'Trudeau was going to build skytrain out to UBC' but of course, four years from that date that project remains in mid-planning. What went wrong? Well nothing at all happened for two years since there was a transit ambivalent, obstructionist BC Liberal government in power. As soon as the unabashedly pro-transit BC NDP took power then things started to change. Similarly plenty of great transit projects got off the ground in Ontario during the last four years, but now that Doug is in power I don't know if we can expect similar progress.
The key to better public transit creation IMO is to move beyond the status quo way of financing these mega projects, a top down, strings attached method, and instead simply give cities more money to do whatever they want so they can get these projects off the ground themselves. I believe this year the Liberals gave cities some funding from the gas tax but it was only a one time thing. Jack Layton proposed a permanent redirection of gas tax money to the cities long ago and I assume this remains in the NDP platform. (I haven't had the time to dig into the depths of either NDP or Lib platforms yet)
This is a false equivalence. You're comparing a situation where a language would thrive with one that wouldn't.
This is correct.
And this is not. Look, Quebec has problems with xenophobia, this is well-known and well-documented. But conflating, nay, directly associating a desire to protect the French language with xenophobia is a huge reach. Even if there's sometimes going to be overlap, let's not lose the plot here.
At least though, we can all agree that the Bonjour/Hi thing is completely fucking stupid lol.
It's why I don't think the LPC fighting the compensation thing even matters to most Canadians. Most would be fine if none of the affected people saw a dollar.
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