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Canadian Election 2019 |OT| One Long Year of Scheer Stupidity [Update: Liberal Minority Government]
- Thread starter Caz
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People don't understand the economic situation in Alberta. The pipeline has not been built. It might never be built. The delays have been devastating to the province, resulting in a lot of unemployment. The suicide rate for young male Albertans has increased by 30%.
What you see as bending over backwards by Trudeau for Alberta is not how Albertans see Trudeau. During his term Alberta has seen a major economic decline. It has not been good times. I volunteer at a food bank depot and the number of families that need help has risen significantly.
Of course it's not all Trudeau's fault. There needs to be more economic diversification and less oil reliance, but that's not going to happen overnight. Bootstraps, right? Alberta was expected to focus on the natural resource and give equalization payments to eastern Canada. So that's what they did for many, many years. But when they needed economic help they were ignored, now they are insulted and mocked. Finally the Liberal government did something about the pipeline situation even though it still might not happen. But we're expected to be grateful for something that hasn't happened yet and just ignore what has happened in the last 4 years.
I hope you can understand why Albertans are frustrated and not impressed by the Liberal government.
Some went back to Bloc, some went to Libs because of Trudeaumania, and some even went to Cons IIRC.
My point is that the orange wave and Trudeaumania are both ephemeral phenomenon, but the Bloc has a long-lasting foundation and impact. I'm starting to think it'll never truly die. Maybe with the Boomers, lol...
Scott Moe stinks and the Sask Party are hypocrites. They were ready to sue the Feds over equalization payments until Harper asked them kindly not to. Now it's suddenly on the table again.
Why would you have to include the NDP? The popular vote is the absolute number of votes cast for each party, so you can analyze each number in a vacuum. It's a different story if you want to account for strategic voting but I'm not even sure how you could measure that...
Not sure how your math works.
Using CBC's numbers, the difference between the Liberals and the Conservatives was about 238,589 votes.
Out of the provinces that I would classify as "overwhelmingly" voting for the CPC over the Liberals, only Alberta and Saskatchewan could've decided the popular vote.
What you're saying would make sense why Alberta is frustrated...but then they vote overwhelmingly for the party that wants the exact same conditions that caused this mess to remain in place. Stephen Harper was the PM for 10 years...dude completely fucked over Alberta by quadrupling down on the oil sands. Look at some of the other oil producing nations like Saudis, Qatar, Kuwait, Norway etc. They pooled their oil wealth into massive diversification projects and investment funds. Stephen Harper did fuck all and Alberta remained content seeing massive profits thinking it would last forever. By the time Trudeau even got power it was too late.
Just looking at the Sask premier's message today, he literally wants the status quo to remain. Diversification my ass, Alberta and Saskatchewan's leaders want to remain as a one commodity economy with boom/bust cycles that will massively fuck over everyone except for the billionaire investors.
Do Albertans not realize that pipelines in 2019 are massively unpopular? Even if it makes practical sense to build it, you will see major resistance, hence why its taking so long for construction to start. And that's just the trans mountain pipeline. The cluster fuck that would be Energy East is migraine inducing. Even if the CPC were in power, I dont see how they could expedite any of this.
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I didn't look at CBC's site, last I saw the difference was about 260k. Are you suggesting that using 240k as the vote count that there weren't 120k Ontarians that could have voted red instead of blue? Not Quebec either? Not BC?
The total amount of residents to Saskatchewan and Alberta, including non-voters barely exceeds the number of total votes for CPC.
My math is sound, I'm not sure about yours.
I have been screaming this for 30 years. The Conservatives are not the answer. They never have been. But the Liberals are not considered the answer either. Especially recently. This even goes back to daddy Trudeau and how he treated Alberta. The recent bad history only adds to the ancient history. The province is not going to vote Liberal. Ever. It's a lost cause.
For awhile there I really thought the NDP was going to gain support. It's what I hoped and at least in Edmonton there seemed to be a fair amount of support. There still is kinda. Unfortunately the Notley government did not impress so the province goes back to the stupid Conservatives, and I go back to screaming. Who the hell is going to fairly represent Alberta?
Why are you bringing Ontario, Quebec and BC into the discussion? We can go into endless what if scenarios, so let's just stick to actual numbers.
Your claim was, and I quote, "It's not just Alberta that overwhelmingly voted for CPC", my counterpoint is that only Alberta and Saskatchewan voted overwhelmingly for the CPC in terms of vote percentage, and of those two provinces mainly Alberta carried the CPC's popular vote. Outside of those two, BC and Manitoba were the only other provinces where the CPC had a higher popular vote than the Liberals, but I wouldn't say that they overwhelmingly voted for the CPC since the CPC didn't have >50% of the vote in either province. BC had the CPC at 34% and the Liberals at 26%(and the NDP at 24.4%), while Manitoba had the CPC at 45.8% and the Liberals at 26.2%(and the NDP at 20.6%).
In the rest of the country, the Liberals carried the popular vote.
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They understand they're unpopular but is it really difficult to understand that people want to maintain their quality of life and have a job? Or that it's extremely frustrating that we need to stop using oil, while enriching the US and Saudi Arabia when we have our own product while actually doing little to cut down on consumption.
These pipelines have been approved, then rejected, then approved, then stalled, then rejected, then approved. During that time you have people losing their homes, having marriages break up, committing suicide and getting told to stop whining by the rest of the country.
Personally, pipelines have no impact on myself so I have little investment in their outcome other than taking a potential hit on my homes value, however even though the rest of the country perceives Trudeau to have helped the oil industry, no one has actually seen a realized benefit of this. I think in the face of such hardships, many would question their vote and hope to throw shit at the wall in the hope it sticks and something changes. That's the reality of it. Leading into 2015 it was a drastically different political landscape but discourse unfortunately has really entrenched that us vs them mentality. It's probably not going to change any time soon but I don't think it's really about "conservative values" anymore, it's really just hoping that someone, anyone can help turn things around.
Offtopic but a lot of Canadians here, has anyone else been getting a lot of weird calls from area code 226 the last few days? I'm not answering cause I assume they're scam or spam calls but I've been getting ones from different 226 numbers every few hours.
Despite on the ground projections, Alberta's GDP is still growing and the median income is still higher than the Canadian average. Tories are just looking to dry the well even further by not actually diversifying and not having a plan to ramp down oil production. I don't think anyone thinks just shutting everything down overnight is reasonable, but there's no denying that at some point it needs to slow down.
Albertans aren't going to be impressed by any government except for the ones that tell them what they want to hear. Economic diversification will always be painful, it's just a matter of how much. The later Albertans put it off the more it'll hurt.
I think that's why ROC give Alberta flack, because not only are they willing to unanimously elect a party that will hurt them in the long run, but they want to drag the ROC with them.
Even when/if the pipeline gets built, will Alberta do the right thing with the income and reinvest? The likelihood is probably really low. When things get good people are unwilling to change. When things go bad, they pine for the good old days. There's little room for a solution when Albertans aren't looking for one.
226 is london's second area code.
I get a lot of spoof calls from a ton of area codes ranging from london to toronto and ottawa, it's an epidemic.
CPC won the popular vote in every province west of Ontario. I get what you're trying to say but it's stupid and trying to frame it in a way like there is any place that deserves the blame. Collectively, a large percentage of the country both in land distribution and population voted CPC. It's a silly frame of thought and likened to without Quebec or Ontario the conservatives would have won, it's irrelevant. This election ultimately showed that this is a very divided country in its political landscape, thus Trudeau now has to form a functioning government with the lowest popularity vote in history.
Alberta give equalisation payments to the east? I'm sorry what? I had to explain this to a coworker on Friday, but it is baffling just how many people in this province don't seem to understand what equalisation payments are and how they work.
Let's make one thing clear about BC.
The Conservatives didn't do well. The NDP split the left vote.
The Liberals circumvented that trend by taking advantage of an opportunity in the most lucrative province (Ontario).
The Conservatives didn't do well. The NDP split the left vote.
The Liberals circumvented that trend by taking advantage of an opportunity in the most lucrative province (Ontario).
CPC won the popular vote in every province west of Ontario. I get what you're trying to say but it's stupid and trying to frame it in a way like there is any place that deserves the blame. Collectively, a large percentage of the country both in land distribution and population voted CPC. It's a silly frame of thought and likened to without Quebec or Ontario the conservatives would have won, it's irrelevant. This election ultimately showed that this is a very divided country in its political landscape.
You're moving the goalposts, your original claim was never "CPC won the popular vote in every province west of Ontario".
Again, your words: "It's not just Alberta that overwhelmingly voted for CPC", while technically true, is extremely misleading because only Alberta and Saskatchewan overwhelmingly voted for the CPC, and out of those two it was Alberta that contributed to the lion's share of the CPC popular vote, no other province overwhelmingly voted for the CPC.
How can it be stupid when it's a fact? You're just trying to dance around your own claims.
Yeah they did... Look at the damn map.
You want to argue semantics to assign blame. There is a sea of blue between Ontario and the BC coast. I don't know how you could say it's anything but overwhelming.
I don't even understand what you're saying anymore.
Ok let's make this simple, please list out all of the provinces that overwhelmingly voted for the CPC.
Ontario's population > BC+AL+SK+MA+more!!!!
wanna talk population? okay
okay Western Aliens, separate and buh bye
wanna talk population? okay
okay Western Aliens, separate and buh bye
I don't understand what you're arguing. CPC won almost every riding from Manitoba to Interior BC. What exactly is not overwhelming about that? What is your imaginary threshold?
Ontario and Quebec alone could have decimated the popular vote for CPC, but they didn't.
Been getting them a lot lately. Like, several times a week. Very annoying.
Just give them daily reminders of how well the UK is doing and... Oh nevermind they'd do it anyways.
Besides the prairies, if the other parties outnumber your votes more than 2-1, is drawing attention to the popular vote really a strong position? So what if the CPC got the most votes for a party, when LIBS+NDP+Bloc+Greens handily outnumber them. What was it 34.4% for the Cons nationally? So 65.6% of the electorate did not vote for them. I wouldn't even bring up the popular vote if I was the CPC, and I definitely wouldn't act like that one premier and pretend that it indicates some sort of mandate from voters.CPC won the popular vote in every province west of Ontario. I get what you're trying to say but it's stupid and trying to frame it in a way like there is any place that deserves the blame. Collectively, a large percentage of the country both in land distribution and population voted CPC. It's a silly frame of thought and likened to without Quebec or Ontario the conservatives would have won, it's irrelevant. This election ultimately showed that this is a very divided country in its political landscape, thus Trudeau now has to form a functioning government with the lowest popularity vote in history.
exactly, even more lol
The media are eating this garbage narrative "DIVIDED COUNTRY!!!"
pffffff
the media is making a big thing about nothing
You're moving the goalposts once again, we're talking about the popular vote, not ridings. Again, your full claim:
So I ask again, please list out all of the provinces that overwhelmingly voted for the CPC.
I'll quote myself that kicked off this discussion
I don't actually care or think it's meaningful, I do however think it's stupid to assign blame when collectively every province had to vote to deliver this result.
re
As long as eastern attitudes are similar to this thread.. the west is going to be an angry place.
As long as eastern attitudes are similar to this thread.. the west is going to be an angry place.
Maybe instead of complaining about everyone else not giving them what they feel they deserve, they should instead work on bettering their province.
Dude, I'm an Albertan as long established by several posts in many threads. I've lived here as long as my living memory of 30+ years. Don't patronize me.
I deeply understand why Albertans feel frustrated. But it smacks of the same entitlement of the rust belt and resource economies of the US. It's an appeal to 'the good old days' and uses 'economic anxiety' as an excuse for exaggerations and inflamed rhetoric.
Here's a thought. Did you know that Toronto used to be in a similar situation as Alberta, when all of the manufacturing and resource jobs left? Do you know what Toronto did? They moved on and diversified their economy. Alberta fails time and time again to adopt new policies to move the province forward, nor to vote in politicians that actually works for them.
The tragedy of the whole thing? Alberta voted out MPs and governments that actually did Alberta some good.
And finally...
That. Is. Not. How. Equalization. Works.
all this crying about not being represented
well, guess how it felt like being a Montrealer during 9 years of Harper
well, guess how it felt like being a Montrealer during 9 years of Harper
I'm no mathematician but you need the most votes in a riding to win the seat? Almost every riding, which indicates almost every area had higher percentage of votes for CPC. Whether the spread was 1% or 20% is as relevant as removing everywhere east of Ontario from the equation.
Your definition of overwhelming is clearly different to mine.
The end result is a government that had the least amount of votes in history taking power. Which is fine but it's certainly not a great victory and a strong statement.
Why is it that Alberta needs to drag BC and Manitoba into its "we the west" talking points? I don't live in in the east. I live in south-west Edmonton, and I'll be right there at the front of the line to discuss how ridiculous this province is.
I remember when Rachel Notley was elected, and FB and Twitter where full of people saying we destroyed this province, and that we'd regret voting NDP. Did they care that Notley and the NDP did everything humanly possible to help this province? Did they care that under the NDP, this province saw its most progressive social policy implementations? Did they care that the NDP inherited a mountain of shit that they had to clean up? Nope. Alberta's problem is themselves. No one else did this to Alberta.
You're trying to only focus on percentages. Popular vote percentages don't matter, it's totals that matter. There is a crap load of Ontario that voted conservative. They got more conservative seats than Alberta. It doesn't matter what percentage of Alberta seats there are when there is only a limited amount of seats they can provide. Alberta is basically insignificant to the big picture compared to the number of voters in Ontario and Quebec. The total numbers are what matter, not percentages.
You can't ignore the total number of Ontario conservative voters and seats and focus on percentages because that's what makes Alberta look worse. Ontario contributed more to the conservative total vote count than Alberta. Spinning the numbers doesn't change that.
The federal government comes up with a provincial average economic threshold that it considers to be sufficient to pay for programs and services. Any provinces output found to be below that threshold gets topped up, others not topped up. This is funded through federal income tax. NO PROVINCE ACTUALLY TRANSFERS MONEY INTO ANOTHER PROVINCE. There's more detail but that's the gist of it.
It's relevant if we're talking about the popular vote.
I think your definition is different from everyone's definition:
o·ver·whelm
/ˌōvərˈ(h)welm/
overwhelm
verb
- Defeat completely.
with object and complement 'the Irish side was overwhelmed 15–3 by Scotland'
Sure, but to say that Ontario "overwhelmingly" voted for the CPC is a contradiction because that would mean Ontario even more "overwhelmingly" voted for the Liberals, which is a statement that makes absolutely no sense. My entire point is that there are only two provinces that actually overwhelmingly voted for the CPC, and one of those two contributed far more votes to the CPC's total than the other.
Don Martin to Liz May:
"all this focus on the news about climate change, why did your party only get 8% of the vote?"
"all this focus on the news about climate change, why did your party only get 8% of the vote?"
Who had more votes province by province?
Manitoba - CPC
Saskatchewan - CPC
Alberta - CPC
BC - CPC
Yeah, those provinces voted CPC. Is 4 out of 4 overwhelming? I'm not sure, I should probably check Websters, thankfully you provided it, I don't know what I would have done.
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