Can we not call objectification and sexualization “fan service”?

[Rotimi]

They're discussing the actual term "fam service" by trying to identify the nuance between what they believe is fine or objectionable fan service.

Most of the opposition been about general sexualization but a lot of the opposition in here has been to specifically depicting young girls sexually, which I haven't seen you speak on other than to call it "that other shit" that went down in the thread.

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See this is what leads to thread derailing. I don't agree with minor sexualization it's wrong and bad. I haven't showed support for it so stop trying to stand on one freaking moral high ground with me.

The thread is based on finding another term to call sexualization and objectification as the fan service is used for it more often.

But thats not what is happening. A lot of post are simply condemning sexual stuff in games. Also discussing what is considered good fan service. That's not what the thread is about

This stuff is in most forms of visual media. Making it look like you shouldn't like any sexual stuff in games and simply condemning people for having a hobby is not okay.

 

[ColorMeImpressed]

Fan service is for both sexes - it's a generic term.

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At one point the term was broader than T&A, and can also refer to inside jokes, callbacks, etc. Basically stuff that wasn't supported by the plot but was just there because the audience wanted to see it.

At some point that meaning fell away and it just came to refer to panty shots and bathhouse scenes.

 

[Omegamon]

At some point that meaning fell away and it just came to refer to panty shots and bathhouse scenes.

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Nah, people still use it for stuff like csllbacks, just look at the Star Wars threads here.

 

[lactatingduck]

See this is what leads to thread derailing. I don't agree with minor sexualization it's wrong and bad. I haven't showed support for it so stop trying to stand on one freaking moral high ground with me.

The thread is based on finding another term to call sexualization and objectification as the fan service is used for it more often.

But thats not what is happening. A lot of post are simply condemning sexual stuff in games. Also discussing what is considered good fan service. That's not what the thread is about

This stuff is in most forms of visual media. Making it look like you shouldn't like any sexual stuff in games and simply condemning people for having a hobby is not okay.

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They're condemning sexual stuff to identify it which is exactly what the thread is about—whether sexualized or objectionable content should be referred to as fan service or if using that term is a euphemism for creep stuff.

You're upset because you like things at least on the same shelves as the creep stuff and it's getting called out.

 

[PER_Soul]

At one point the term was broader than T&A, and can also refer to inside jokes, callbacks, etc. Basically stuff that wasn't supported by the plot but was just there because the audience wanted to see it.

At some point that meaning fell away and it just came to refer to panty shots and bathhouse scenes.

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It's an incredible versatile term that I have even seen used to refer to callbacks and Easter eggs in places like MAL, Era is mostly the placed that is so hung up on it also referring to any kind of sexual content.

 

[Deleted member 33533]

it's used to white-wash actual sexual objectification. It's just a way for people to feel good about themselves without being explicit about their vices. It's like a dog whistle similar to when white people use "inner city kids" and so on. A roundabout way to avoid feeling racist or sexist or whatever

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This is a bit of an exaggeration. I think it's far more just a popular term that is easy to say. I can't really see it being a dog whistle exactly because it's such a popular term. When people say it, they aren't pretending it's something else. They really can't. Everyone knows what you mean when you say it.

I've also seen people directly use the word fanservice to call out some media in a negative light. Like for example, the sexualization in the anime Fire Force being really bad and inappropriate is something people have expressed with the word "fanservice." It is not some sort of weird attempt to "avoid feeling racist of sexist."

At one point the term was broader than T&A, and can also refer to inside jokes, callbacks, etc. Basically stuff that wasn't supported by the plot but was just there because the audience liked it.

At some point that meaning fell away and it just came to refer to panty shots and bathhouse scenes.

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But it does still mean those things. The sexualization part of it gained a lot of popularity, mainly from the anime community but I've still seen fanservice used to refer to non-sexualized things plenty of times. For example, I've seen many people use the word in reference to Super Smash Bros. many times on this very forum. I've never seen someone respond to that saying "what, you like Zero Suit Samus's midriff alt?!" I feel like it's a broader term where you know what the person is talking about with context.

 

[EvilBoris]

When did fan service come to specifically mean those kinds of things?
I my mind it was in jokes and cameos and eater eggs for fans

 

[Deleted member 984]

This stuff is in most forms of visual media. Making it look like you shouldn't like any sexual stuff in games and simply condemning people for having a hobby is not okay.

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Yes and that stuff gets called out far more often in other media all the time when it is objectification and sexualisation without narrative purpose.

It's also not about the rejection of sexual content as well delivered sexual content that establishes characteristics, relationships and narrative is fantastic but that is not what "fan service" is. There is an entire thread dedicated to why people don't like unwarranted sexualisation of characters in games that covers all bases, fan service is the prime motivator behind that in gaming. At least in other forms of media you can find good depictions of sexual relationships that don't read like the fantasies of bedroom ridden forty year old that still live with their parents.

 

[-PXG-]

Or depictions of young girls/boys even if it's cartoons

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Yes, that too, obviously. I mentioned that in a previous post.

lactating duck...lol

 

[SweetVermouth]

I've mentioned this before but I do not have a problem with sexualization (and to a certain degree) objectification but only if that is part of why a show/book/film/comic was made in the first place.

Fan service however is random panty shots and sexual harassment just because. It's actually disgusting. In the case of Seven Deadly Sins it made me stop watching it altogether.

main character grabs girls boobs: "oh these are nice!"
the girl: "oh what are you doing??"

Who the fuck writes this garbage?

 

[Sankara]

This is a bit of an exaggeration. I think it's far more just a popular term that is easy to say. I can't really see it being a dog whistle exactly because it's such a popular term. When people say it, they aren't pretending it's something else. They really can't. Everyone knows what you mean when you say it.

I've also seen people directly use the word fanservice to call out some media in a negative light. Like for example, the sexualization in the anime Fire Force being really bad and inappropriate is something people have expressed with the word "fanservice." It is not some sort of weird attempt to "avoid feeling racist of sexist."

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What do you think sounds worse?

A. I like games with fanservice in them
B. I like games with sexualization objectification of women in them

So yeah, it's a dog whistle and a way for people to avoid feeling embarassed about their entertainment preferences

 

[banter]

Fan service is something that is placed into a medium that is irrelevant to the plot for fans to appreciate (a service to the fans, fan service, yeah). This can absolutely be something lewd if that's something that fans of the series would appreciate. This doesn't mean that it isn't objectification/sexualization though. People obviously use the term fan service over the others because of the negative connotation that those words have vs "fan service".

 

[SchrodingerC]

Yeah man, fuck those 'people' who enjoy boobs and asses, what the heck is wrong with them?!

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Let's start with not reducing women into being "boobs and asses" for one.

One can like sexual imagery, but sanitizing the often sleazy objectification of female(and male) characters as 'fanservice' is the problem.

 

[Foot]

I've mentioned this before but I do not have a problem with sexualization (and to a certain degree) objectification but only if that is part of why a show/book/film/comic was made in the first place.

Fan service however is random panty shots and sexual harassment just because. It's actually disgusting. In the case of Seven Deadly Sins it made me stop watching it altogether.

main character grabs girls boobs: "oh these are nice!"
the girl: "oh what are you doing??"

Who the fuck writes this garbage?

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Oh yeah, holy shit was that bad.

 

[Monster Zero]

Let's start with not reducing women into being "boobs and asses" for one.

One can like sexual imagery, but sanitizing the often sleazy objectification of female(and male) characters as 'fanservice' is the problem.

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Who gets to decide what's acceptable sexual imagery?

 

[tarantullama]

Ah, this line is the hangup.

Context is key and the OP seems to be lacking it. Series aimed to sexualize everything? Don't see the issue. Fan art of a character or series? That's up to you. Sexualizing or objectifying the side character in an otherwise straight laced piece? That's definitely serving one part of the audience to the exclusion of everyone else. That doesn't have to be sexist but since the OP specifically said female characters it can be.

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As for context, I most often encounter the use of the phrase "fan service" in terms of sexualization when it is thrust into an otherwise non-sexual game for seemingly no reason. "Fan service" seems to imply that the creators are going out of their way to give fans something they want. In a series entirely about sexualization, that wouldn't really be fan service but rather adhering to their preexisting world and vision.

 

[Deleted member 35077]

When did fan service come to specifically mean those kinds of things?
I my mind it was in jokes and cameos and eater eggs for fans

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When Neon Genesis Evangelion was release, so all the way back in 1996, or 1998 if we are talking the west specifically.

 

[Deleted member 22405]

Love that these threads are just as divisive as ever. /s

I really don't think its okay to hate on other members of this forum. That seems like such a dick move.

 

[Deleted member 55966]

As for context, I most often encounter the use of the phrase "fan service" in terms of sexualization when it is thrust into an otherwise non-sexual game for seemingly no reason. "Fan service" seems to imply that the creators are going out of their way to give fans something they want. In a series entirely about sexualization, that wouldn't really be fan service but rather adhering to their preexisting world and vision.

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I figured that was your aim, but it wasn't spelled out so I didn't want to assume too much.

I'd argue in a world of sexualization giving the fans more sexualization is fan service even if it overlaps with the vision. A large contingent of people shipping Finn and Rose only to see them get together in Star Wars is fan service without adhering to, but also not hurting, the vision.

"Fan service" that marginalizes parts of the audience and hurts the world vision should be called for what it is. Period.

 

[Deleted member 33533]

Fan service however is random panty shots and sexual harassment just because. It's actually disgusting. In the case of Seven Deadly Sins it made me stop watching it altogether.

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Ugh, this was a series I stumbled upon midway through the manga and really enjoyed from what I read so I thought "hey, I'll start from the beginning now that there's an anime out." I don't know how they think having a main character molest and grope someone relentlessly to be charming or entertaining. It makes the entire thing unwatchable/unreadable to me. I felt something similar about Fire Force and the character that seems to have been created just to be the target of the fanservice stick as it really feels like the writer is like "well, it's time for a fanservice character" just hits the character with their magic stick to make a fanservice moment happen.

What do you think sounds worse?

A. I like games with fanservice in them
B. I like games with sexualization objectification of women in them

So yeah, it's a dog whistle and a way for people to avoid feeling embarassed about their entertainment preferences

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Well I'll tell you for certain that "the sexualization objectification of women" is far more of a mouth full than "fanservice." There's a reason certain terms catch on; I don't think the sexualization objectification of women really rolls off the tongue. It's also not accurate as fanservice can refer to sexualized male characters too.

What you're describing is not what a dog whistle is. A dog whistle is a political tactic that basically uses "code words" to state racist, sexist and other similar things that skate under the radar of most people but is clear as day to the group you intend to target with it. It's a sinister method of getting support for those sexist/racist/etc things without stating it openly - it's a veiled attack against a person or group. Saying "I like the fanservice in this game" does not have such motivations nor does it work that way. That's why I said you're exaggerating things by calling it a dog whistle. You're making it out to be dramatic and sinister when it really isn't.

I have never seen someone express liking fanservice in an attempt to fool people into thinking they just meant easter eggs and stuff when they actually meant they like the way a certain female character looks. It's not like it would even work. Like I said, it's such a popular term that when you say it, it's almost 100% obvious what the person means in context. There's no subterfuge or coded meanings here. I mean, the thread is about OP being upset the term has become heavily associated with sexual content. Someone who is trying to avoid feeling embarrassed about liking sexualized fanservice is not even going to use the word "fanservice" in the first place. They will probably just keep their thoughts to themselves.

 

[Pau]

Who gets to decide what's acceptable sexual imagery?

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Generally, I'm going to listen more to the people actually part of the groups depicted.

 

[Calvarok]

it has always been a creepy term, regardless of the context.

even when sexual content is not created in an objectionable way, you're still making it about you and viewing it as a personal handjob from the creator, which is probably not at all what they think of it as. it feels like a violation on your part to see it that way.

and when it is creepy shitty content... have some self esteem, people.

 

[SchrodingerC]

Who gets to decide what's acceptable sexual imagery?

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Technically those who cuts the checks for devs and the devs themselves, but I digress.

Anyways, context for the sexual imagery is a deciding factor. For example, Quiet's chest and butt framed during and after her brutal torture is bad sexualization. A terrible addition to what's suppose to be a serious scene.
The game community can still call out the creepy shit that's represented in games, even in cases of 'fanservice'.

By the way, you'd think having sexualized kids would always be unacceptable in any context, but of course one creep wants to die on that hill.

 

[BadWeddingSpeech]

I honestly always thought it was strange to call it "fan service"

 

[Torpedo Vegas]

I honestly always thought it was strange to call it "fan service"

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I just thought it was called DOA Beach Volleyball.

 

[Rotimi]

They're condemning sexual stuff to identify it which is exactly what the thread is about—whether sexualized or objectionable content should be referred to as fan service or if using that term is a euphemism for creep stuff.

You're upset because you like things at least on the same shelves as the creep stuff and it's getting called out.

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Dude I live in Nigeria, I wish I had a shame shelf to look at, but I see you have no culture of discussing topics without trying to sound too smart lol. Can guess where you live already
There's a difference between discussion whether you should use a term for certain things and simply condemning. If you don't know the difference then fine. Don't want to derail the thread further so I am done with you

 

[Rotimi]

Yes and that stuff gets called out far more often in other media all the time when it is objectification and sexualisation without narrative purpose.

It's also not about the rejection of sexual content as well delivered sexual content that establishes characteristics, relationships and narrative is fantastic but that is not what "fan service" is. There is an entire thread dedicated to why people don't like unwarranted sexualisation of characters in games that covers all bases, fan service is the prime motivator behind that in gaming. At least in other forms of media you can find good depictions of sexual relationships that don't read like the fantasies of bedroom ridden forty year old that still live with their parents.

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I understand that certain games make characters overly sexual for reasons. I really don't have much experience with those games. Can only afford to buy highly rated games honestly. I know they can be really bad.

So I can't say i understand how bad they are. I believe some game like dating sims and the likes include sexualization and objectification of both genders which may or may not fit the plot. But those games are targeted towards particularly audiences. I sure as hell won't simply condemn anyone that does because I find it weird.

I haven't played the famous 3000 year fire emblem and don't even know what the character looks like. I read on the former site that the character looked like a minor. Now that's wrong I don't need to play the game to condemn that.

But something like Quiet in mgsV the term fan service can be used no matter what Koji wants to say. Some gamers like that stuff and That's on them. It's heavy sexualization and fan service is the term used for it. It is done to please fans or certain fans. When fan service is used in a marvel movie I don't think sexual. So context also matters

 

[dodo]

fan service is a fairly broad term that doesn't just refer to stuff like, I dunno, beach episode dlc or whatever. it's applied to anything that is aimed (successfully or unsuccessfully) at appealing to a fandom's more base desires, be it self-referential humor, confirmation of popular fan theories, etc etc. off the top of my head i can remember the term being used a lot to describe things like mass effect 3's citadel expansion.

anyway the OP isn't wrong in that it can have the byproduct of sugar-coating more serious discussions, but on the other hand I don't feel like it's that misapplied. "fan service" works just as well as a derogatory descriptor. it's not inherently positive.

 

[Laiza]

Who gets to decide what's acceptable sexual imagery?

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Maybe, y'know, the people who are constantly getting objectified should have a say in things?

 

[Deleted member 31092]

When Neon Genesis Evangelion was release, so all the way back in 1996, or 1998 if we are talking the west specifically.

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NGE didn't sparkle fanservice, it was just the first massive cultural icon to have it.

Gainax's Gunbuster in 1988 was already full of fanservice

And even before they were called "Gainax" they had fanservice. They actually got famous and started working in the anime industry because their boob jiggle and their mech animations were extremely good in Daicon IV in 1983.

But even then the idea of having sexuality in their works was pretty copied from Go Nagai's works such as Devilman and Cutie Honey in 1973.

But even Go Nagai's more "sexy" works of 1973 weren't groundbreaking, as he introduced the theme 5 years prior in Harenchi Gakuen, a manga credited for being the first ecchi in history.

When this kind of stuff got the "fanservice" name is a lot more difficult to track, but when Daicon IV was made the term was already popular in the otaku world, so we are talking at least 15 years before NGE.

 

[tarantullama]

NGE didn't sparkle fanservice, it was just the first massive cultural icon to have it.

Gainax's Gunbuster in 1988 was already full of fanservice

And even before they were called "Gainax" they had fanservice. They actually got famous and started working in the anime industry because their boob jiggle and their mech animations were extremely good in Daicon IV in 1983.

But even then the idea of having sexuality in their works was pretty copied from Go Nagai's works such as Devilman and Cutie Honey in 1973.

But even Go Nagai's more "sexy" works of 1973 weren't groundbreaking, as he introduced the theme 5 years prior in Harenchi Gakuen, a manga credited for being the first ecchi in history.

When this kind of stuff got the "fanservice" name is a lot more difficult to track, but when Daicon IV was made the term was already popular in the otaku world, so we are talking at least 15 years before NGE.

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Wow, thanks for this overview.

 

[Isilia]

It is going to be a while until we can have all women in a game be treated as equals to the men, huh.

Until then, I guess we have to deal with main protagonists falling on their chests and making them wear bikinis. Ugh.

 

[SweetBellic]

call it fapservice instead

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And we're done here lol

 

[ChippyTurtle]

Technically those who cuts the checks for devs and the devs themselves, but I digress.

Anyways, context for the sexual imagery is a deciding factor. For example, Quiet's chest and butt framed during and after her brutal torture is bad sexualization. A terrible addition to what's suppose to be a serious scene.
The game community can still call out the creepy shit that's represented in games, even in cases of 'fanservice'.

By the way, you'd think having sexualized kids would always be unacceptable in any context, but of course one creep wants to die on that hill.

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Pretty sure kojima absolutely decided on how the framing was done, cause he's a horny nutter.

In that instance, fan service as defined as fans wanting their favorite products shifted away from creator vision does not apply. Still sexualization that is problematic but that's a separate topic.

I'm ok with fan service but I would like fan service to be more inclusive. If your gonna put women in this situation, do the men. Also there's a difference between a guy sneaking under a skirt and a scene where everyone is swimming. One is engagement in a immoral action (not to mention illegal) the other is pointing out the characters are hot as hell, and I think that's ok.

 

[battleborn27]

I hate when SFV's disgusting blatant fap bait / waifu trash costumes get called fan service

 

[ChippyTurtle]

Also I'm not comfortable with loli fan service or that shit, but suggesting just cause I like anime means I approve of loli and lewd children is some bullshit.

Honestly this strain of putrianism where anime/loli/porn are just mushed together does not make sense from a progressive standpoint.

How does disapproving of regular fan service differ in opposing prostitution or sex work? Obviously we have issues to discuss in all realms but I'm asking those of you opposed to it in a general stance beyond pedo or immoral stuff like spying or harassment.

 

[Busaiku]

I've largely stopped using "fanservice" on it's own when referring to it, but include "sexual" in there.
So "sexual fanservice".

 

[spman2099]

Yeah, I love a good bit of fan service... like when a game references a character from a past game (or things along those lines). What I don't like is sexist bullshit. Call the objectification of women in gaming what it is. Great thread, OP.

 

[Aexact]

I don't think the term is reclaimable at this point. When I say "fan service character", that evokes a specific type of imagery rather than one with cameos or Easter eggs or the other possible definitions of fanservice. Fan service as a term already has a negative connotation because of that association. It may be softening to claim objectification as "for the fans" but it's still pretty negative.

I'm all for using other words other than fan service to refer to objectification but it's a pretty ubiquitous term. Easier to refer to other types of "fanservice" as Easter eggs or bonuses.

 

[farmland]

If by fan service we mean the sexual objectification of a character then yes I hate it. I will go out of my way to not buy a game that's otherwise great if it's like that.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

I remember when I first heard the term I was really confused as to what it meant. It should mean pandering to fans, so I assumed it meant going for cheesy character cameos, unearned throwbacks, scattered references, etc. But no, it's sexualization. And like... only that.

Really bizarre usage of the term.

 

[HotHamBoy]

But fan service can also refer to other things.

Let's defer to the much creepier "cheesecake" for sexual exploitation, and keep fan service for the other stuff like cameos and callbacks.

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Cheesecake is honestly the proper, older slang term.

Not sure why people stopped using it.

Right after people stop using "gamers" as a derogatory word here. I'm all for both.

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"Gamer" is a stupid word to begin with.

I personally hate the label. I like movies and books, too. I'm not a Mover or a Booker.

 

[DarkFlame92]

It's a branch of fan service,since it appeals a part of the fans that are specifically pleased by stuff like that

 

[Rendering...]

The euphemism is pretty well locked into subcultural vernacular at this point. Trying to change a common term based on a literal reading like "fanservice means service for ALL fans, and that's inaccurate" is kinda dumb.

Use whichever term you prefer, but language is an organic thing that's difficult to manipulate on purpose unless you have serious influence coupled with the social savvy to change people's thinking on a broad scale.

 

[HotHamBoy]

It is going to be a while until we can have all women in a game be treated as equals to the men, huh.

Until then, I guess we have to deal with main protagonists falling on their chests and making them wear bikinis. Ugh.

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I feel like the West has gotten a lot better over this last gen about their portrayal of women, by and large. Same with ethnic representation. Not perfect, still some bad apples, but we're getting there.

The East, however...

I was actually shocked to see this kind of design descrepency for an MC coming from Nintendo:

 

[Nessii013]

If you can convince everyone in the world to use a different word/phrase then cool, but until then I will speak to be understood.

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I mean, to be fair, objectification and sexualization are a lot more understandable linguistically than fan service.

 

[Isilia]

My scenario was pulled from Persona 3 where you can make the girls wear the bikinis. They are definitely not wanting to do it, but they do it because you asked for it.

Creepy as heck.

 

[Curufinwe]

Cheesecake is honestly the proper, older slang term.

Not sure why people stopped using it.


"Gamer" is a stupid word to begin with.

I personally hate the label. I like movies and books, too. I'm not a Mover or a Booker.

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Ridiculous argument. People who enjoy running as a hobby and post about running on running forums are called runners.

 

[Lindsay]

Fanservice is inserting references to past game(s), cameos, easter eggs, etc. into a game.

Not crap like pantyshots.

Get that stuff its own term. It truly does not make sense to call stuff like that "fanservice" when its at times utilized in legitimately brand new games with no established fanbase or anything to pander to. Can't service fans ya don't yet have. Which further drives home how stupidly the terms being used.

 

[HotHamBoy]

Ridiculous argument. People who enjoy running as a hobby and post about running on running forums are called runners.

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At least that's a verb