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Can we have real progress in the US while white Americans are the majority?

808s & Villainy

808s & Villainy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
So this might be a bit of a controversial opinion, but it seems the main impediment to progressive initiatives actually succeeded, regardless of how we factor my education, socioeconomic status, the one common factor in all of these is race, namely white people. This isn't to downplay the numerous contributions and help from white allies throughout the country's history and even in the modern day, this is just a maybe somewhat pessimistic view that until they're the minority, and their political power is minimized (barring a South Africa situation) they will always be the major roadblock to actually enacting certain changes. Any thoughts? Am I just being too cynical?

To clarify what I mean by "real" progress, as it was vague, essentially progress towards things that some white Americans interpret of them "losing" power or social standing. This can included protections for underrepresented groups (racial, ethnic, religious, gender, etc), actual addressing of systemic bias and discrimination and anything tangentially related (so everything from housing and education to criminal justice/the prison system)

Also, in case it isn't widely known, this is based on census projections that show that the US will eventually become minority white, not some hypothetical about if there were less white people or anything like that

www.brookings.edu

The US will become 'minority white' in 2045, Census projects | Brookings

Demographer William Frey discusses why youthful minorities are the engine of future growth.
www.brookings.edu www.brookings.edu
 
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fracas

fracas

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,651
That's a tough question.

We managed to kill slavery and end a good bit of federally-endorsed discrimination with a white majority, but there's still so much to do. I'd say not necessarily a hard "no" but it's definitely a major impediment.
 
TheBiInBilingual

TheBiInBilingual

THE STORE ENSURED ME THERE WOULDN'T BE FILM
Member
Feb 22, 2018
2,798
Depends on their views/beliefs. Racism/discrimination aren't white-exclusive, although very rare in other races.

fracas said:
That's a tough question.

We managed to kill slavery and end a good bit of federally-endorsed discrimination with a white majority, but there's still so much to do.
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.
 

Deleted member 1635

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
6,800
Getting to the heart of things, I see. I do wonder, however, if your ultimate conclusion is that they are a roadblock, what would you suggest be done with that roadblock?
 
Mammoth Jones

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,338
New York
Being a minority won't change shit. Apartheid South Africa anyone?

But to answer your question, yes. Yes you will see progress. Problem is it has always been at a snails pace.
 
dragonchild

dragonchild

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,270
The assumption here is that things will change if/when they become a minority. The way things are going, the cult is going to dismantle democracy.

Actually it's a bit late to say "going to". Look at what they've been doing in states like North Carolina and Georgia. It turns out that they were for democracy only as far as it gave them ethical standing to implement their fascist agenda (if you're a minority, America was always fascist). Forced to choose between the two, they decided to ditch the ethical theatrics and implement their agenda anyway. They didn't even hesitate.

The endgame for the cult is to establish a ruling minority through totalitarianism. So even if they drop to 45,% 40%, 35% of the country, they can maintain power as long as everyone else is oppressed. What sort of change are you expecting when they drop to 49%?
 

Zelas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,020
Sure. If minorities and the remaining white people with sense stop self sorting themselves into electoral college weakness. Not overcoming that issue will still present a problem even when white people are no longer the majority.
 

Deleted member 19003

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,809
Yes? I don't think race has so much to do with it, it's just parts of majority panicking at losing their status atm. Lots of progress has been accomplished already with a white majority though, including major inroads in LGBT rights most recently.

Like, worldwide even non whites can be cruel and opressive, it's not exclusive to white people.
 
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FreeMufasa

FreeMufasa

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,375
Things ain't gonna change much once they become a minority. And never underestimate how quick some minority groups will sell out if they can join the white fold
 
OP
OP
808s & Villainy

808s & Villainy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
Zefah said:
Getting to the heart of things, I see. I do wonder, however, if your ultimate conclusion is that they are a roadblock, what would you suggest be done with that roadblock?
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Nothing has to be "done" necessarily. Demographic shifts are trending in the direction that they will be a minority at some point. However, other racial/ethnic groups could very easily take their place, be incorporated into "whiteness", etc so maybe it won't make a difference
 
sangreal

sangreal

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,890
Guido Krijt said:
Depends on their views/beliefs. Racism/discrimination aren't white-exclusive, although very rare in other races.
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The bolded is not true at all, though I don't think it is particularly relevant to the OP's specific concerns. People will always find someone to look down on, and it's often because they're darker -- even among other people of color
 
BebopCola

BebopCola

Member
Jul 17, 2019
2,067
The problem with the "snail's pace" speed that positive, progressive change has been occurring is that it can (and IS) being rolled back significantly, with far more speed and efficiency by the whites in power. And that fear of losing the majority is really making the old dudes more ruthless and openly racist.

So yeah, I think the problematic white population (which is a mix of hardcore racists and a massive majority of those who let racism slide out of indifference/apathy/FYIGM-ism) will need to be removed from power.
 
Palette Swap

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,225
One example I guess:
www.nytimes.com

Why Doesn’t America Have Universal Health Care? One Word: Race (Published 2019)

The nation’s first federal health care program served freedmen after the Civil War. From the beginning, white legislators argued it would breed dependence.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

Blue Sky Noise said:
well how long have they got as a majority anyway?
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Much longer than people tend to think, because of voter disenfranchisement and because whiteness is a fluctuating notion that will ultimately incorporate newcomers as long as they agree with the program.
 

Avinash117

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,602
Don't know, but it is worth noting most white Americans lean conservative or to the right. Any progressive change will have to be done through Democrats having the majority and Democratic Presidents only get about 35- 40% of the white electorate.

I think it is possible to make argument that most white Americans makes it difficult to pass progressive legislation because Democrats will still have to take in consideration of their conservative constitutes.
 
Gaf Zombie

Gaf Zombie

The Fallen
Dec 13, 2017
2,239
To see real progress in the US I believe one of two things need to occur:

1) The average white American needs to be convinced that letting others prosper won't come at the expense of them or their family. This is largely a lack of knowledge (ignorance) issue inflicted upon us by corporate actors and self-serving politicians. I do agree that a white minority or even a thinner white majority could move the needle here.

2) An external threat compels America to work together. A possible scenario is that China threatens to become the dominant power of the world thus encouraging the US to get its head out of its ass and stop shooting itself in the foot.
 
TheMan

TheMan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,264
I dunno. With wealth inequality being what it is and probably getting worse, it won't matter if whites are outnumbered because they will still hold the highest concentration of money, which of course means power, which means they will still have a great deal of control.

Breaking down wealth inequality (and this will mean changing/breaking a LOT of systems) is really the way to go. Easier said than done though.
 
thewienke

thewienke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,983
There are two things I think are important to consider:

1. Assimilation of more and more Hispanics into "white" since the definition of "whiteness" has changed.
2. It's a fallacy to treat all minorities as a single monolith as a "cure all" to society's ills or to assume that racial power structures won't still exist

I believe that it would be some serious uncharted waters. Has any modern multi-ethnic combined minority majority successfully wielded power over a now plurality of white people on a national scale before? Then let's consider the sheer length of time that we're talking about before this would come to pass.

I have to believe that white Americans can and should do better if we're going to see progress in our lifetimes.
 
Bonafide

Bonafide

Member
Oct 11, 2018
936
FreeMufasa said:
Things ain't gonna change much once they become a minority. And never underestimate how quick some minority groups will sell out if they can join the white fold
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This. "Whiteness" is just a placeholder, as long as people are willing to buy in and support the system in exchange for at least a perceived higher place in the totem pole and benefits, you're going to continue to run into problems.

Basically, you cant fight fire with fire. Fighting this fight along racial and ethnic lines is actually what the conservatives and fascists want.
 

Deleted member 1635

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Oct 25, 2017
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808s & Villainy said:
Nothing has to be "done" necessarily. Demographic shifts are trending in the direction that they will be a minority at some point. However, other racial/ethnic groups could very easily take their place, be incorporated into "whiteness", etc so maybe it won't make a difference
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I feel like you're saying that "whiteness" is just an attribute possessed by any group enjoying privilege in society. Am I wrong?
 
Greg NYC3

Greg NYC3

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,496
Miami
dragonchild said:
The assumption here is that things will change if/when they become a minority. The way things are going, the cult is going to dismantle democracy.

Actually it's a bit late to say "going to". Look at what they've been doing in states like North Carolina and Georgia. It turns out that they were for democracy only as far as it gave them ethical standing to implement their fascist agenda (if you're a minority, America was always fascist). Forced to choose between the two, they decided to ditch the ethical theatrics and implement their agenda anyway. They didn't even hesitate.

The endgame for the cult is to establish a ruling minority through totalitarianism. So even if they drop to 45,% 40%, 35% of the country, they can maintain power as long as everyone else is oppressed. What sort of change are you expecting when they drop to 49%?
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It's been clear for a very long time that this is the GOP endgame but I'm no longer certain it will be successful. They've just about completed their test run for fascism and authoritarianism and based on the recent polling it might actually lose them the plurality of the white vote for the first time in multiple generations, and with a relatively good economy. That would be both unprecedented and disastrous for the GOP's long term goals to have their plans derail this quickly.
 
Izzard

Izzard

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Sep 21, 2018
4,606
Are you talking about a particular country, because worldwide you can see that progressive initiatives are hindered by more than just a white people majority?

Edit: didn't see US in title. Although, thinking about it, using the rest of the world as an example I'm sceptical that that would be the case.
 
Zoator

Zoator

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Oct 27, 2017
405
It's important to understand that being being white doesn't cause people to be conservative. Take a look at New England as an example — very white, and very blue. Education and religiosity are much stronger predictors of political leanings: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/religion-and-education-explain-the-white-vote/

The country is becoming less religious over time, so that's an encouraging trend. Increasing access to higher education should also improve the situation over time.
 
JeTmAn

JeTmAn

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Oct 25, 2017
3,825
White Americans ended slavery and gave equal voting rights to everyone, so anything is possible.
 
genjiZERO

genjiZERO

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Jan 27, 2019
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Richmond
The premise of white people even being the minority is flawed because it assumes that there is commonality and collectivity amongst non-whites which there isn't.
 
Hollywood Duo

Hollywood Duo

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Oct 25, 2017
42,067
What's your definition of real progress? We've made quite a bit of progress since the country was founded and a lot more white. Gay marriage was legalized, slavery abolished, women's rights, etc. Obviously there is a long way to go to a perfect society but progress has been made.
 

Deleted member 1635

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Guido Krijt said:
I get your point, but I also said Discrimination. That, for example includes Anti-LGBTQ laws. I'm no expert, but Cuba/Jamaica/Most countries in Africa aren't non white majority, or are they?
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You sure felt confident enough to make a definitive statement about the proclivity for racism in certain races despite your self-admitted lack of expertise.
 
Coyote Starrk

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
53,175
(I assume this is directed at the US)


I think we can yes. If the US had few million less ignorant racists then I think things would be drastically different right now and this question wouldn't even need to be asked.


All we can do I hope the majority actually wins this next time around. I think that will begin to set us back on track in terms of progress.
 

Deleted member 45414

Banned
Jun 26, 2018
3,829
Zefah said:
That's not a fair assessment. Yes, the prison system is fucked, but to say that slavery just transitioned to a prison system is absurd.
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Less absurd than you'd think. i.e. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_gang
The introduction of chain gangs into the United States began shortly after the American Civil War. The southern states needed finances and public works to be performed. Prisoners were a free way for these works to be achieved.[8]
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Also this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States
Penal labor in the United States, including a form of slavery or involuntary servitude, is explicitly allowed by the 13th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. This form of legal slavery is only allowed when used as punishment for committing a crime.
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Mulciber

Mulciber

Member
Aug 22, 2018
5,217
Yeah, of course. There's nothing special about white people insofar as these issues go. What I mean is that white people will fight for and against progress. People of other ethnicities and races will do the same. It's the power structures that need dismantling. The grotesque income inequality has to be dealt with. That kind of thing.

As a first step, we need to get the hell out there and vote. The Democrats aren't perfect, but the Republicans are proto-fascists, ready to implement it. Getting Democrats in real power can also help us push the Overton Window.

It also feels a bit short sided to wonder about "real progress" when you look at where this country started and compare it to now.
 
Deepwater

Deepwater

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Oct 25, 2017
6,349
I'm not sure why you would even posit this question here. It's just bound to devolve into a honey pot thread
 
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